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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on April 28, 2021, 06:31:37 PM
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Okay,this thought hit me while reading Groinkick's post about Marcone in the time traveling thread.
On one hand not sure if it is a deep enough thought to warrant it's own thread, but on the other it would have totally hijacked the other topic, so here goes.
I guess desperate times call for desperate measures and power corrupts even the already corrupted, but it is weird that Marcone would take up a coin. The Denarians did a number on him on Demonreach back in Small Favor.. So much so that he and Mab planned and got revenge on Nic and company in Skin Game.. So now they kiss and make up? Or are there going to be unforeseen consequences down the road? At the moment Namhiel is glad to be back in business with a ruthless intelligent host, and Marcone was happy to save Chicago and getting more power, but who is using whom and what is the ultimate goal?
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I guess a lot of it depends on
Is Namshiel and Nick enemies?
Was Namshiel part of the attack on Artist Tor?
Did someone already conclude on those two?
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In the end if you keep the coin and not die on time the fallen will be using you. It is just a matter of time.
We know Nick and Namshiel worked together in the past. They might have worked against each other as well. That does hardly matter.
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Okay,this thought hit me while reading Groinkick's post about Marcone in the time traveling thread.
On one hand not sure if it is a deep enough thought to warrant it's own thread, but on the other it would have totally hijacked the other topic, so here goes.
I guess desperate times call for desperate measures and power corrupts even the already corrupted, but it is weird that Marcone would take up a coin. The Denarians did a number on him on Demonreach back in Small Favor.. So much so that he and Mab planned and got revenge on Nic and company in Skin Game.. So now they kiss and make up? Or are there going to be unforeseen consequences down the road? At the moment Namhiel is glad to be back in business with a ruthless intelligent host, and Marcone was happy to save Chicago and getting more power, but who is using whom and what is the ultimate goal?
Pretty sure Marcone was using the Coin already at this point.... Crap now I have to start a separate subject
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Pretty sure Marcone was using the Coin already at this point.... Crap now I have to start a separate subject
:o LOL!!! Marcone will do that, but you admit then? It's weird..
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I have no idea when Marcone started to use Namshiel’s coin except of course somewhere between smal favor and battle ground.
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Okay,this thought hit me while reading Groinkick's post about Marcone in the time traveling thread.
On one hand not sure if it is a deep enough thought to warrant it's own thread, but on the other it would have totally hijacked the other topic, so here goes.
I guess desperate times call for desperate measures and power corrupts even the already corrupted, but it is weird that Marcone would take up a coin. The Denarians did a number on him on Demonreach back in Small Favor.. So much so that he and Mab planned and got revenge on Nic and company in Skin Game.. So now they kiss and make up? Or are there going to be unforeseen consequences down the road? At the moment Namhiel is glad to be back in business with a ruthless intelligent host, and Marcone was happy to save Chicago and getting more power, but who is using whom and what is the ultimate goal?
Namshiel also was not on good terms with Nic post Arctis Tor, so it may have been part of the bargain he and Marcone made.
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We know that Nic and Anduriel work together as more of a symbiotic organism. This is different from many of the fallen, where it is a one-sided relationship. I think Marcone/Namshiel will be more on the symbiotic side. Marcone knows that Namshiel has the knowledge and power to get what he wants, and Namshiel knows that Marcone has the intelligence and resources to get stuff done. If both parties are happy, they could be a very dangerous combo (brains and strength), but if one is stronger than the other or if one is trying to remain in control, then they would be less effective but possibly more dangerous (just strength with no sense on how to regulate it).
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The weird part is that from what we know of Namshiel, jolly cooperation is not part of his usual MO.
In Small Favor, he was one of the Denarians that liked to dominate his hosts completely. And yet post-Battle Ground we find out that he's apparently just some Magic Nerd that is willing to play partners with Marcone and make jokes in the middle of a battle?
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We know that Nic and Anduriel work together as more of a symbiotic organism. This is different from many of the fallen, where it is a one-sided relationship. I think Marcone/Namshiel will be more on the symbiotic side. Marcone knows that Namshiel has the knowledge and power to get what he wants, and Namshiel knows that Marcone has the intelligence and resources to get stuff done. If both parties are happy, they could be a very dangerous combo (brains and strength), but if one is stronger than the other or if one is trying to remain in control, then they would be less effective but possibly more dangerous (just strength with no sense on how to regulate it).
We know Nicodemus thinks that is the case.
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One question that remains unanswered is whether all of the Fallen line up with Nicodemus and Anduriel on how to best deal with the Outsiders. I've been thinking that perhaps some of the Fallen might believe they have alternatives to a scorched earth policy that Nicodemus and Anduriel might be planning. Similar to Cowl, Kumori and Corpse Taker talking about getting prepared to take advantage of a New Order that was about to arise, perhaps Namshiel or some of the other Fallen believe they can work with the Outsiders for their own ends. Until this issue is clarified, I think it's difficult to know what Thorned Namshiel's long-term game is, other than further corrupting Marcone and finding a way to get in the driver's seat of that relationship.
I would also like to know what, if anything, Marcone has learned about the Outsiders. It would indicate how much information Namshiel is sharing with Marcone.
As far as Marcone's decision to take up the coin goes, I think that after Gard's plan for a safe room within a safe building failed and Marcone was taken prisoner by Nicodemus, he felt that after all his precautions had failed that he needed something extra he could pull out of a hat. He saw the chance to pick-pocket Michael and he took it. We can't be certain when he went full Knight of the Blackened Denarians. I would guess it wasn't right away. Perhaps after Harry came back from the dead or before that, shortly after the Fomor started making their presence felt.
I think I need to reread the short story Even Hand and see if there are any subtle clues that I wouldn't have noticed the first time I read it.
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Here is something to consider.... Marcone is the perfect person to take over the Denarians.... Namshiel is apparently at odds with Nicodemus, and I think that Marcone the man can match Nicodemus the man pretty well.... Nicodemus may have a real problem on his hands now.
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The weird part is that from what we know of Namshiel, jolly cooperation is not part of his usual MO.
In Small Favor, he was one of the Denarians that liked to dominate his hosts completely. And yet post-Battle Ground we find out that he's apparently just some Magic Nerd that is willing to play partners with Marcone and make jokes in the middle of a battle?
Exactly, all this could backfire on Marcone big time, but for the moment they have the same agendas. However it is said they want to go after Nic, anyone see Nic approach Harry in an effort to take out Marcone/Namshiel? Also nobody has mentioned Nic's lovely Denarian wife, she also has an agenda, and wants control.
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The weird part is that from what we know of Namshiel, jolly cooperation is not part of his usual MO.
In Small Favor, he was one of the Denarians that liked to dominate his hosts completely. And yet post-Battle Ground we find out that he's apparently just some Magic Nerd that is willing to play partners with Marcone and make jokes in the middle of a battle?
Could be the Fallen itself and/or the previous host were N-fected. That accounts for just about any erratic behaviour.
Could be he's pissed after Tessa and Rosanna maybe framed him for Arctis Tor and definitely pickpocketed the back of coins off of him and left him to lose his host and go to coin jail, and he decided he needs of a partnership role with Marcone if he's going to get even with the others who treat their hosts as a partner.
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Could be the Fallen itself and/or the previous host were N-fected. That accounts for just about any erratic behaviour.
Could be he's pissed after Tessa and Rosanna maybe framed him for Arctis Tor and definitely pickpocketed the back of coins off of him and left him to lose his host and go to coin jail, and he decided he needs of a partnership role with Marcone if he's going to get even with the others who treat their hosts as a partner.
All out civil war between the Denarians, interesting... Already a power struggle between Nic and Tessa, could it be that was the reason he wanted the Grail? Or more to the point, all of the Artifacts.
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All out civil war between the Denarians, interesting... Already a power struggle between Nic and Tessa, could it be that was the reason he wanted the Grail? Or more to the point, all of the Artifacts.
Marcone hooks up with Tessa..... That could change things.
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All out civil war between the Denarians, interesting... Already a power struggle between Nic and Tessa, could it be that was the reason he wanted the Grail? Or more to the point, all of the Artifacts.
If Forthill's information is anywhere near accurate, Nic and Tessa have been doing the rivalry thing for centuries already. I think going to the extreme of killing Deirdre to get his hands on the artifacts was about something more urgent than the power struggle that's already been between them.
Nic might have been pushed there by learning from Harry about the Hellfire being used in the attack on Arctis Tor and inferring there was a n-fected among the Denarians and Tessa might be it. But I think his desperation to claim the weapons had more to do with the upcoming culmination of the current starborn cycle. It's 'five minutes to midnight' for the immortals, and all.
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In stories about compacts with the devil his promises turn out to be empty. The big plan is probably whispered in Nicodemus ears by Anduriel or unrecognizable corrupted by him. The important thing that happened to Nicodemus in Skin game is not that he got the grale or that he failed to get the rest but that he killed his daughter. The fallen are never finished with corrupting you, you can always fall deeper into the pit.
The final triumph of the fallen is shown by Nicodemus and Tessa together attacking and blaming the Carpenters. Never mind that they failed, they are now even more in their clutches.
https://xenagoguevicene.wordpress.com/2018/10/26/gothic-horror-emphasized-the-monk-by-matthew-lewis-1796/
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Nicodemus claimed that his goal was to save the world.... I think he was being completely truthful. It's just gone terribly wrong, and I agree you can't play with powers like Anduriel without being corrupted by them. Not forever. But, Nicodemus still thinks he's in charge, still thinks he's going to save the world.
Our little Nicky is probably the Nicodemus of the Bible (John 3:1-21; John 7:50-51 and John 19:39-42). Nicodemus comes to Jesus and they discuss whether one can be "born again" from above. Later, he questioned the appropriateness of Jesus' kangaroo trial before the Sanhedrin and then still later is said to have assisted Joseph of Arimathea in preparing Jesus for burial.
Our Nicky also has Judas' noose and the thirty coins, which also fits, given that Nicodemus was in the right place and time to grab those items. He also claims to be two thousand years old.
Btw, Nicodemus is a Saint in the Catholic Church, making that exchange with Harry all the more amusingly ironic when Harry remarks that Nicodemus will one day be a Saint.
But, Nicodemus' degradation is even more tragic. He was an actual Saint. Today, in his pride and arrogance, he's committed every conceivable crime and sin and has killed the only thing in the world that he appears to have loved. He can't admit to himself that he's not the one in charge.
Does anyone actually think that a Fallen Angel would ever consider a human an equal partner? If any Fallen Angel thought that, they would not have fallen. Some humans are more useful than others, more cooperative and effective when controlled more subtly.
Back to Marcone. Marcone may think he's a partner of Namshiel, and it may be that Namshiel's previous host was "weak" but Marcone will end up that way too, it just may take a long time. But, consider. Marcone is a gangster, he was thoroughly corrupt and degraded before taking up the coin. Unlike Nicodemus, Marcone was no Saint.
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Our little Nicky is probably the Nicodemus of the Bible (John 3:1-21; John 7:50-51 and John 19:39-42). Nicodemus comes to Jesus and they discuss whether one can be "born again" from above. Later, he questioned the appropriateness of Jesus' kangaroo trial before the Sanhedrin and then still later is said to have assisted Joseph of Arimathea in preparing Jesus for burial.
Seems to me that using his real name if he was actually someone biblical would be more than a little stupid. He makes a point of periodically attacking the church's records about him every century or so to sow confusion, but he leaves that out there?
I think Anduriel hooked up with a near perfect bastard originally, and appropriating the name was some kind of dark joke. Sure, letting him think he's an equal partner is probably playing to his conceit. A genuinely rotten human being has a level of creativity about his cruelty that the Fallen probably genuinely appreciates and respects on some level, but at the end of the day he's only a favoured class of dixie cup.
And as for using the Outsider threat to steer him, a truth that will get the mark to do what you want is even better than a lie that will get the mark to do what you want, because it cuts out the risk of losing your grip if he ever catches on to the lie. A devil that picks the one truth of cosmic horror that will break a man and program him into a fanatic ready to scorch the earth to prevent empty night is playing a more profound game than one that just lies well.
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If past experiences are a guide then denarians will always choose lie and betrayal even when truth and loyalty benefits them more. It is their nature. It is what they want and what they believe will work.
Harry knows and was could defeat them in small favor and skin game because of that.
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Nicodemus has a treachery addiction, even when it's not in his interests.
That's not to say Anduriel suffers from the same flaw when it comes to manipulating Nicodemus.
Forthill also said it sometimes takes the Church centuries to understand some of Nicodemus' lies. That's hard to achieve without weaving some truth in to muddy the waters.
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Nicodemus has a treachery addiction, even when it's not in his interests.
That's not to say Anduriel suffers from the same flaw when it comes to manipulating Nicodemus.
Forthill also said it sometimes takes the Church centuries to understand some of Nicodemus' lies. That's hard to achieve without weaving some truth in to muddy the waters.
The whole interaction between fallen and host is about lying and betrayal. In the end Anduriel made Nicodemus kill his own daughter and for what? It won’t be worth it.
Lash said it in so many words to Harry. Seduce and destroy.
She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."
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She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."
But he managed to, didn't he.
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But he managed to, didn't he.
Sure but that was another story
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Sure but that was another story
No, it is the exception that proves the rule..
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No, it is the exception that proves the rule..
We were talking about the fallen, not it’s shadow. The shadow can tell us something about the fallen mindset but it is more vulnerable.
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Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.
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Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.
And since when did that really work with one of the Fallen? A lot easier to be rid of Bob than a coin.
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Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.
Sign here for your soul? In blood? That is a classic one, it never ends well.
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If you think about it, Marcone is very vulnerable to the lure of the Coins. Marcone already thinks himself damned, if not from generally being an arch-criminal then from the episode with Becket's daughter.
But, and this is why he's really at risk, he really believes that evil can be managed. He can manage his criminal enterprises to not hurt kids, to be neat and tidy, to curb the excess violence, etc. Marcone thinks he can be a more civilized gangster.
So Namshiel comes into his life and promises him magical power -- the area where Marcone is at an extreme disadvantage -- and appears to be cooperative, manageable and civilized. He even has (with Marcone) the high-class Oxbridge accent that Americans in particular view as the epitome of civilized. In Small Favor, Namshiel speaks with an "odd accent," whatever that means, but not a British one.