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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on April 21, 2021, 06:09:36 PM
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Forgive me if this is kind of obvious, but...
Harry made a deal with Lea for power prior to the series beginning.
In Summer Knight, Lea traded the debt to Mab. Mab and Harry negotiated the debt could be settled by Harry performing three services. Mab states that the first favor is to find the killer of the Summer Knight.
At the end of Summer Knight, Mab offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry refused, two more favors were still owed.
In Small Favor, Mab tried to collect on the second favor. Harry balked. Mab again offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry performed the favor, finding Marcone. At this point, Harry still owed Mab one favors.
In Changes, Harry approaches Mab with a deal to accept the Winter Knight mantle in exchange for her healing his broken back, give him power to rescue his daughter, and that she not force him to kill anyone he loved. Harry fails to mention anything about the third and final favor.
Mab can't order the Winter Knight to kill, say, Molly. (Like she's ordered the Winter Knight to kill Maeve) But she could require Harry Dresden to kill the Winter Lady in order to fulfill the third favor.
Sword of Damocles, indeed.
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Except maybe killing the winter lady is a big thing. Too big for just one favor.
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Didn't Mab agree to the condition that she wouldn't make him harm those he cares for?
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Didn't Mab agree to the condition that she wouldn't make him harm those he cares for?
She won't tell the Winter Knight to kill the people Harry loves. Harry Dresden, Wizard, owes her a favor, free of encumbering conditions. According to the fae rules, if Harry wanted that sort of condition attached to the favors, he should have specified it when the conditions of the debt were arranged.
Never deal with the fae.
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@ LostInTime
I've re-read the passage in Changes chapter 30:
“You know my price, mortal. Speak it.” “You want me to become the Winter Knight,” I whispered. A laugh, both merry and cold, bubbled beneath her response. “Yes.” “I will,” I said. “With a condition.” “Speak it.” “That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”
Harry just told Mab those were the conditions. She never actually agreed to anything he said. Neither through words nor through gestures or eye-blinking.
Meaning she can tell him to do anything she wants.
And therefore has no need to use the last favour to order him to kill anyone. She can just command him as her knight.
But I agree, there is the last favour left open. She only said in the previous books, that she would consider the favours done, if hr agreed to become the Winter Knight instead of doing the favour.
As he became the Knight for his own reasons, there was no favour deal involved. Just the time, power and knowledge to save his child and the restoration of his body. And she did not even agree to those either. But she granted part of his requests. So imho she fooled him into thinking she granted all requests.
As long as Harry remains Winter Knight, Mab has no need to call in the last favour. But once he gets out of her service (and I do think, he will figure out how to do so without dying, someday), there will be the last favour for her to call in.
Or she could sell it to somebody else like Lea sold it to her.
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To say nothing of the fact that she could always order Molly to kill Harry. Harry might not have any choice but to kill in self-defense.
My theory is that there's another influence outside the fae courts that stops the fae queens from killing mortals.
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It must be some kind of power restriction, probably the same one that keeps them from telling lies.
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Think of the fae queens as a hostile life form. They're going to make a weakness appear as a strength. If they are blocked from doing something directly, they'll find a workaround or bargain with another entity with no such restriction to do the deed for them.
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Harry just told Mab those were the conditions. She never actually agreed to anything he said. Neither through words nor through gestures or eye-blinking.
Meaning she can tell him to do anything she wants.
Yeah, that's the bigger danger to him. With the original three favors, he was smart enough to include the right to turn down job requests that would fulfil one of them. With the Knight gig, she never actually accepted his terms against killing loved ones.
Of course, if she ordered "kill Molly" for no good reason, he's more likely to say "Nah" and choose to die for insubordination.
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At the moment Mab only wants Molly killed if she dies herself. Mab has long term good expectations of Molly but she thinks Molly is not ready.
But that makes it difficult to order Harry because Molly is then Queen and Mab will be dead. So Mab has to convince Harry. To take it seriously.
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Yeah, that's the bigger danger to him. With the original three favors, he was smart enough to include the right to turn down job requests that would fulfil one of them. With the Knight gig, she never actually accepted his terms against killing loved ones.
Did she not? I think Jim has left that one rather vague on purpose. No, she didn't say out loud that she accepted Harry's terms. However on the other hand, could Harry have been made her Knight if she hadn't? Because then it would be a lie by omission on her part, or a trick, which would again be a lie, in my opinion, thus voiding any deal, freeing Harry from being her Knight.
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Harry stated a condition. She did not disagree or negotiated about it so it is in. It is not an important thing because loved one usually means ally and Mab is not interested in making Harry weaker.
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Harry stated a condition. She did not disagree or negotiated about it so it is in. It is not an important thing because loved one usually means ally and Mab is not interested in making Harry weaker.
She isn't, she also knows Harry's feelings towards Molly from his reaction to her becoming Winter Lady. In that light I am not sure what she was thinking when she told him to kill Molly if she died in Battle Ground. She ought to know better and have a lot more information and very good reasons before she'd expect Harry to even consider obeying that order.
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She isn't, she also knows Harry's feelings towards Molly from his reaction to her becoming Winter Lady. In that light I am not sure what she was thinking when she told him to kill Molly if she died in Battle Ground. She ought to know better and have a lot more information and very good reasons before she'd expect Harry to even consider obeying that order.
It was not an order. It was more like a statement about what she thought should be done in such a case. She explained it which is a big thing, she did not do that in the past. It does impress the gravity of the situation on Harry. It makes him think about what to do.
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He could still refuse, but I don't know what would happen. He avoided Leah when he owed her. Mab might be able to force his body to act, but I don't know if she could order him to do it, and he would be unable to not do it.
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It was not an order. It was more like a statement about what she thought should be done in such a case. She explained it which is a big thing, she did not do that in the past. It does impress the gravity of the situation on Harry. It makes him think about what to do.
Does she have to order formally though? "Will someone rid me of this meddlesome priest." Was all Henry had to say, and Beckett was murdered. If someone else over heard her say it to Harry, it could happen.
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If he points out how it breaks their deal he can squeeze out of it without repercussions I think. More interesting though, is harry becoming a saint and declaring he loves all of humanity or something. That kinda blanket effect, if done with proper form(meaning it) would irk Mab dearly but getting around it would be crafty.
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Does she have to order formally though? "Will someone rid me of this meddlesome priest." Was all Henry had to say, and Beckett was murdered. If someone else over heard her say it to Harry, it could happen.
Henry was not Sidhe. If Mab says something like that maybe someone will do it but no one will feel obliged to do so.
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If he points out how it breaks their deal he can squeeze out of it without repercussions I think. More interesting though, is harry becoming a saint and declaring he loves all of humanity or something. That kinda blanket effect, if done with proper form(meaning it) would irk Mab dearly but getting around it would be crafty.
Yeah, but, it requires Harry as a saint. How likely is that?
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Henry was not Sidhe. If Mab says something like that maybe someone will do it but no one will feel obliged to do so.
But that is the whole point, Mab is off the hook because of the bargain, she knows she cannot order Harry to do it, but at the same time she has put her wishes out there. No one is obliged to do it, but they might do it because it is their Queen's wishes. Henry didn't order Beckett killed, no one felt obliged to do it, but they did anyway hoping to curry favor with the king perhaps, or because it in a way gave them permission, because they too felt that Beckett was a pain in the ass.
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But she only told Harry and he doesn’t do something just because Mab would like it.
But with Henry? They might have geeked it was a command.
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But she only told Harry and he doesn’t do something just because Mab would like it.
But with Henry? They might have geeked it was a command.
Apparently they did, because some of his knights/lords proceeded to murder Beckett. Did she only tell Harry? Could she have voiced it to others?
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Yeah, but, it requires Harry as a saint. How likely is that?
*turns slowly*, less likely than nicodemus :O
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Apparently they did, because some of his knights/lords proceeded to murder Beckett. Did she only tell Harry? Could she have voiced it to others?
It was a private conversation. She would not have explained herself in public.
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It was a private conversation. She would not have explained herself in public.
Really? Unless precautions are taken Andriel hears and sees everything...
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Really? Unless precautions are taken Andriel hears and sees everything...
He must pay attention to a specific individual at that moment. Anduriel does not hear everything.
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I'll throw this out there too. Harry owes Mab a favor, plus, he's the Winter Knight, which means he owes all of the Winter Queens unlimited favors, excepting only that he doesn't have to accept any that would hurt the ones he loves.
He also owes Molly a favor from bargaining for the ring in Peace Talks. She warned him to not make an open-ended deal with the fae, but Harry's is remarkably dim in foresight.
Harry owed Lea a debt, and somehow, Mab wound up owning that debt. It's possible she ordered Lea to surrender that debt to her. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Mab could do the same with Harry's debt to Molly.
Harry's favor to Mab is a conditional, he doesn't have to accept the favor asked. But Molly's debt has no conditions attached to it.
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I'll throw this out there too. Harry owes Mab a favor, plus, he's the Winter Knight, which means he owes all of the Winter Queens unlimited favors, excepting only that he doesn't have to accept any that would hurt the ones he loves.
He also owes Molly a favor from bargaining for the ring in Peace Talks. She warned him to not make an open-ended deal with the fae, but Harry's is remarkably dim in foresight.
Harry owed Lea a debt, and somehow, Mab wound up owning that debt. It's possible she ordered Lea to surrender that debt to her. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Mab could do the same with Harry's debt to Molly.
Harry's favor to Mab is a conditional, he doesn't have to accept the favor asked. But Molly's debt has no conditions attached to it.
But the owing of favors can be a tricky thing.. Mab owed Nic a favor and in Skin Game she repaid it, remember? She used the fact that she owed him a favor to set him up for a fall in revenge for what he did to Marcone. She also knew that her Knight would use his head, and grab all the artifacts,so she loaned her Knight for the job. It may have backfired on her a bit though, stay tuned.
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But the owing of favors can be a tricky thing.. Mab owed Nic a favor and in Skin Game she repaid it, remember? She used the fact that she owed him a favor to set him up for a fall in revenge for what he did to Marcone. She also knew that her Knight would use his head, and grab all the artifacts,so she loaned her Knight for the job. It may have backfired on her a bit though, stay tuned.
Not on Mab. Harry will use them for her purpose anyway.
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Not on Mab. Harry will use them for her purpose anyway.
You think not? And you think Harry will use them to her purpose anyway? Remember what she said at the end of Small Favor, that time her purpose and that of Uriel was one and the same, which hints that isn't always the same. Who do you think Harry will listen to if it comes to choosing?
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You think not? And you think Harry will use them to her purpose anyway? Remember what she said at the end of Small Favor, that time her purpose and that of Uriel was one and the same, which hints that isn't always the same. Who do you think Harry will listen to if it comes to choosing?
I don’t think there is any fundamental conflict between Mab and Uriel.
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I don’t think there is any fundamental conflict between Mab and Uriel.
Yes, there was, she was most unhappy with Uriel taking such a risk with her Knight. If she'd had her way, he would have been healed on the spot and her thrall.
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Yes, there was, she was most unhappy with Uriel taking such a risk with her Knight. If she'd had her way, he would have been healed on the spot and her thrall.
Minor disagreements about risks. Lea saw the benefit of this learning experience. In general Mab and Uriel are pretty polite to each other and leave each other doing their jobs. There won’t be an open conflict.
They have been working around each other for quite some time. They are really working for the same company in very different departments.
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You think not? And you think Harry will use them to her purpose anyway? Remember what she said at the end of Small Favor, that time her purpose and that of Uriel was one and the same, which hints that isn't always the same. Who do you think Harry will listen to if it comes to choosing?
Harry won't use them exactly the way Mab would want because he's Harry but his uses will always benefit Mab. Mab's purpose is defending reality and Harry is firmly committed to that.
Uriel's purpose seems to be defending free will. In order for there to be free willed choices there have to be free willed beings so defending reality is part and parcel of that. He may have different methods but I can't conceive of an instance where he'd be on the side of destroying reality unless he fell.
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Harry won't use them exactly the way Mab would want because he's Harry but his uses will always benefit Mab. Mab's purpose is defending reality and Harry is firmly committed to that.
As long as they are on the same page. Mab was willing to have her child killed because she was infected, I'm not so sure Harry would do the same thing.
Uriel's purpose seems to be defending free will. In order for there to be free willed choices there have to be free willed beings so defending reality is part and parcel of that. He may have different methods but I can't conceive of an instance where he'd be on the side of destroying reality unless he fell.
He has the power, but he obeys the rules.
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As long as they are on the same page. Mab was willing to have her child killed because she was infected, I'm not so sure Harry would do the same thing.
If Maggie were about magically nuke Chicago(which was what would have happened in Cold Days if Maeve wasn't stopped), I think Harry would make the hard choice . It would break him afterwards but he'd choose the millions of innocents over over one person committing an evil act no matter how much he loves her.
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Came up with another fae-legal method. Mab trades away the last favor to another fae (Leanansidhe?). She then orders that fae to command Harry to kill someone he loves. All nice and fae-legal. Harry's criteria for accepting the mantle was that Mab not order him to hurt someone he loves.
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OORRRR, if Harry puts down the Knight mantle, the third favor is still in play. And if Harry breaks the deal, the restriction on Mab asking him to hurt his loved ones is also out the window.
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Actually it is a moot point either way, because Harry won't deliberately kill anyone he loves because someone orders him to, end of story. Thing is, favor or no favor, deal or no deal, Mab cannot force Harry to kill someone he loves, he still has free will and she cannot violate that. Now she might kill him for doing it, but that is another story.
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Harry won't kill someone he loves unless the alternative is worse. E.G. Susan.