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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on April 14, 2021, 02:40:43 PM
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Quick question: Do you believe Dresden could secure the Coins within Demonreach? Why or why not?
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He can try but I think Jim will find a way to bring them into circulation again. They are supposed to be in circulation.
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He can try but I think Jim will find a way to bring them into circulation again. They are supposed to be in circulation.
Yeah, like Fallen Angels are out of Alfred's jurisdiction perhaps? Then again how well do the Fallen communicate with one another? In other words if Harry could keep it secret where the coins are kept, they may stay there for a long, long, time. Verses either apparent corruption with in the Church allowing for them to be taken and put back into circulation, or they do communicate with others allowing for them to be stolen and put back into circulation.
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Yeah, like Fallen Angels are out of Alfred's jurisdiction perhaps? Then again how well do the Fallen communicate with one another? In other words if Harry could keep it secret where the coins are kept, they may stay there for a long, long, time. Verses either apparent corruption with in the Church allowing for them to be taken and put back into circulation, or they do communicate with others allowing for them to be stolen and put back into circulation.
How did the fallen whisper those seven words in Harry's ear, no coin around.
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Quick question: Do you believe Dresden could secure the Coins within Demonreach? Why or why not?
You can't get blood from a coin so sticking them in a cell is a no-go, containment in Demonreach would be leaving them on the floor and hoping nothing bad happens. It's a lot less viable than it looked before PT.
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Quick question: Do you believe Dresden could secure the Coins within Demonreach? Why or why not?
If I remember correctly, Niccodemus told Harry that he can summon the coins. The Church can obscure the location to some extent, but that hasn't proved very effective in the long run
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If I remember correctly, Niccodemus told Harry that he can summon the coins. The Church can obscure the location to some extent, but that hasn't proved very effective in the long run
I think it was Lash that told him that in White Night, however Harry already had the shadow in his head, so there was a connection if Harry wanted to complete it by accepting Lasciel into his head. So on one level it was summoning the coin, but more like the holder of the coin, Lasciel, not a physical summoning of the coin itself.
How did the fallen whisper those seven words in Harry's ear, no coin around.
I've often wondered that myself. This is the best explanation I can come up with. It was Lasciel who did the whispering, it was in Father Forthill's office that it happened. It was Father Forthill who Harry called to pick up the coin after he dug it up from his basement. It may still have been in the office, and at a short distance and given the fact her shadow had been in Harry's head, she was close enough to make the projection.
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I think it was Lash that told him that in White Night, however Harry already had the shadow in his head, so there was a connection if Harry wanted to complete it by accepting Lasciel into his head. So on one level it was summoning the coin, but more like the holder of the coin, Lasciel, not a physical summoning of the coin itself.
I've often wondered that myself. This is the best explanation I can come up with. It was Lasciel who did the whispering, it was in Father Forthill's office that it happened. It was Father Forthill who Harry called to pick up the coin after he dug it up from his basement. It may still have been in the office, and at a short distance and given the fact her shadow had been in Harry's head, she was close enough to make the projection.
I thought that the Fallen who spoke to Harry was Anduriel, not Lasciel and he just used his basic shadow control to whisper at Harry.
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I thought that the Fallen who spoke to Harry was Anduriel, not Lasciel and he just used his basic shadow control to whisper at Harry.
I think it came out in Skin Game that it was Lasciel, goes along with "hell hath no fury than a scorned female."
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Iirc Alfred mentioned in BG that he can only hold things that are so metaphysically 'big'. I suspect Lucifer's top hitters qualify as such.
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I think it was Lash that told him that in White Night, however Harry already had the shadow in his head, so there was a connection if Harry wanted to complete it by accepting Lasciel into his head. So on one level it was summoning the coin, but more like the holder of the coin, Lasciel, not a physical summoning of the coin itself.
I've often wondered that myself. This is the best explanation I can come up with. It was Lasciel who did the whispering, it was in Father Forthill's office that it happened. It was Father Forthill who Harry called to pick up the coin after he dug it up from his basement. It may still have been in the office, and at a short distance and given the fact her shadow had been in Harry's head, she was close enough to make the projection.
My idea is that the fallen can break the rules they normally operate under. There are consequences so they normally won’t do it but every now and then they try because they are the fallen for a reason.
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My idea is that the fallen can break the rules they normally operate under. There are consequences so they normally won’t do it but every now and then they try because they are the fallen for a reason.
That is why they are fallen in the first place, they broke the rules for Heaven. Some of my favorite moments in the whole series is when the Shadow of Lasciel becoming Lash, remarks wistfully on the beauty of St Mary's and later her making music through Harry's guitar playing. How much she missed both, there are consequences, mostly suppressed. I don't think it was just the nick name that changed the Shadow into Lash, Harry made her remember how it was before, and she felt regret.
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I think it came out in Skin Game that it was Lasciel, goes along with "hell hath no fury than a scorned female."
Could be her message but Anduriel acting as the megaphone for her.
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Balance, permanently lock away the coins, you permanently take the Swords out of the game.
With no third Knight I suspect those coins currently out of play, for example with Hades, will stay out of play, but will be back in circulation as soon as there is a third Knight.
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Could be her message but Anduriel acting as the megaphone for her.
It could but why would she need that? What gives you the impression Lasciel couldn't do such a thing unaided?
My idea is that the fallen can break the rules they normally operate under. There are consequences so they normally won’t do it but every now and then they try because they are the fallen for a reason.
Agreed. Functionally speaking it seems any Angel (Fallen or otherwise) can break the rules. But there are consequences. Not the least of which is that, for example, Heaven responds each time the Fallen break the rules. As you say, the Fallen are the way they are for a reason.
As for the OP -
I believe that the Fallen could be contained in Demonreach. If he can contain a god he can contain an Angel, and there is apparently things far worse than Ethniu in Demonreach. However, I suspect that the Coins would always end up free.
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As for the OP -
I believe that the Fallen could be contained in Demonreach. If he can contain a god he can contain an Angel, and there is apparently things far worse than Ethniu in Demonreach. However, I suspect that the Coins would always end up free.
And since there are worse beings on Demonreach, who theoretically could end up with a coin, not a good idea at all to store them there.
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And since there are worse beings on Demonreach, who theoretically could end up with a coin, not a good idea at all to store them there.
Exactly, provided those being were mortal enough to end up with a Coin. I think that's part of how it works.
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I believe the whole genius of Demonreach is that it CAN contain the otherwise uncontainable. But, Angels do operate on a special level, across multiverse, and I have my doubts Demonreach could contain that.
One possibility I see is that it will serve as a special timeout. As in, Kemmler was Warden once, maybe he found a stash of 5 coins and set them free, and if Harry stored coins in Demonreach, his successor would probably inadvertently throw them out somehow. We know timeouts apply to the Fallen, and to an eternal being, what is a decade or 5? It'd suck if it's apocalypse-now, but it still is just the once.
And in that sense, I think the lack of blood is indeed important - if Harry can't stash them in crystal, any Warden could easily pick them up, no skill required. Though we know a Warden could even release those properly trapped, it seems harder.
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I think Demonreach already stores multiverse-spanning beings.
Logically, the Coins will only get stored if Jim thinks that's a good story line. But I highly doubt it.
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Since for some reason humans taking down the evil option makes things fall apart in Dresdenverse it almost certainly won't happen.
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What about not putting the just coins in Demonreach but putting the host with them. If I remember correctly, the Fallen always have their coins on them. So if Harry can get some of Nic's blood, then he could theoretically trap both Nic and his coin in Demonreach. However, the KotC might not like that because them being locked up eliminates the possibility for them to put down the coin.
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The problem with that is that from what Jim's told us it's much harder for Demonreach to hold beings with Free Will for very long, and the Host of a Denarian counts as such- after all, that's kinda the point; piggybacking off of the free will of their coinbearers is what lets Denarians cheat the restrictions on them acting.
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The problem with that is that from what Jim's told us it's much harder for Demonreach to hold beings with Free Will for very long, and the Host of a Denarian counts as such- after all, that's kinda the point; piggybacking off of the free will of their coinbearers is what lets Denarians cheat the restrictions on them acting.
Really? Should mean Thomas can get out then. It's an intriguing idea that Demonreach can't hold beings with Free Will for long.
Do you remember when he said that?
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Really? Should mean Thomas can get out then. It's an intriguing idea that Demonreach can't hold beings with Free Will for long.
Do you remember when he said that?
Priscellie: Are there any being Demonreach is incapable of holding?
Jim: Demonreach is incapable of holding, at least forever, any being with free will. So Demonreach can't keep Thomas there forever.
Priscellie: Oooh. Does the Brit have free will?
Jim: That is the question then, isn't it? That is a fair question.