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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 11, 2021, 05:25:42 AM
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I randomly found this on Reddit
"Book 3: Mavra is in a position to destroy one of the holy swords, but doesn't.
Book 6: Ebenezar is tasked with keeping Mavra's magic shut down. She uses a veil to take pictures of Murphy without Harry noticing, and then makes an illusion of herself getting killed. Eb doesn't mention failing at his task. Possible explanation: Eb and Mavra are allies?
Book 7: Mavra hires Harry to get the Word of Kemmler. Gets it. Has 8 books to use it and become an evil demigoddess, doesn't.
Book 12: 12 members of the Grey Council show up for Harry. We know Odin and Eb. Word of Jim is 6 others who showed up are characters we've met."
Fast forward to BG... Mavra could have killed Harry, and didn't. She tells the others that he's being saved for Drakul, but the others didn't seem to care about that at all.... Either Mavra is more loyal to Drakul than the other vamps or..... she was saving Harry...
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It's crazy enough it just might be true :D
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She also tried to melt him back in Blood Rites sooooo..... ::)
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She also tried to melt him back in Blood Rites sooooo..... ::)
If she wanted him dead, he'd have been dead. From behind a veil, even the newest, weakest minion blamp could have broken his neck rather than take a polaroid.
Seems like maybe she was teaching him a painful lesson, but one that ultimately pushed him to improve his defenses.
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If she wanted him dead, he'd have been dead. From behind a veil, even the newest, weakest minion blamp could have broken his neck rather than take a polaroid.
Seems like maybe she was teaching him a painful lesson, but one that ultimately pushed him to improve his defenses.
Harry was using a pretty strong shield, but with one flaw, he didn't take into account the effect of heat. So yeah, I believe she was trying to kill him and would have, had it not been for his shield bracelet.
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Mavra was testing Harry. She needed to know if he had what it took to stand up to Kemmler's disciples. If he had died to a couple of Renfield's with flamethrowers then than he wasn't the person she needed to grab the Word of Kemmler for her.
During Grave Peril it's my guess that Mavra's true aim was to start a war between the Red Court and the White Council. Mavra wasn't there to help Bianca, she was there to manipulate Bianca and Harry. If she could have accomplished that and later destroyed the sword, I'm sure Mavra would have been fine what that, but it was never her primary goal.
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Mavra was testing Harry. She needed to know if he had what it took to stand up to Kemmler's disciples. If he had died to a couple of Renfield's with flamethrowers then than he wasn't the person she needed to grab the Word of Kemmler for her.
During Grave Peril it's my guess that Mavra's true aim was to start a war between the Red Court and the White Council. Mavra wasn't there to help Bianca, she was there to manipulate Bianca and Harry. If she could have accomplished that and later destroyed the sword, I'm sure Mavra would have been fine what that, but it was never her primary goal.
Perhaps, but I really doubt she is Gray Council, more like she has her own agenda.
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Perhaps, but I really doubt she is Gray Council, more like she has her own agenda.
Agreed.
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Harry was using a pretty strong shield, but with one flaw, he didn't take into account the effect of heat. So yeah, I believe she was trying to kill him and would have, had it not been for his shield bracelet.
The best chance to kill him wasn't in the basement. It was when they were occupied with the Renfield, and Mavra or one of her minions took a blackmail photo instead of striking when he never even would have seen it coming.
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I understand where you are coming from, and something is differently fishy with Mavra; however not sure who would have invited her to the Gray Council. I don't think that Eb would have invited a vampire to the Grey Council, and from my understanding, he is the only one who knows everyone on the Council. Like the theory!
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Perhaps, but I really doubt she is Gray Council, more like she has her own agenda.
Assuming the Gray Council are the good guys...I mean by name alone they are shady.
Eb even tells Harry when it's first formed that they will be "walking down some mighty dark alleys. And doing it in mighty questionable company"
I wouldn't be surprised if Mavra were on the Gray Council, nor just about anyone else who isn't an out-and-out villain...unless the Gray Council becomes the actual bad guys. But that seems less likely.
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I've long played with the idea the Grey Council are the Black Council- Eb going full "burn it all down!" when Maggie died is consistent.
Which would make Cowl a member
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Vadderung was there so I don’t think so.
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Vadderung's a practical guy and a gambler. His target might be overturning the old order
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Vadderung is committed to defending this reality against the outsiders and removing the red court was a major blow against the outsiders. This was too important. Besides Mab and Uriel were also involved.
He was protecting the old order against the red court.
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Assuming the Gray Council are the good guys...I mean by name alone they are shady.
Harry just made it up because there is a White Council, and who he calls the Black Council. He and Eb suspect that the White Council has been infiltrated by some really bad actors, and don't know who they can trust. So they are teaming up with trusted members for the purpose of survival, and protecting the White Council. They want to find out who the bad actors are. The dark path Eb is talking about (I think) is because if they are found out, they will be executed for what appears to be an attempt to overthrow the White Council
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Vadderung is committed to defending this reality against the outsiders and removing the red court was a major blow against the outsiders. This was too important. Besides Mab and Uriel were also involved.
He was protecting the old order against the red court.
Right. But we don't know what the Black Council is *for*. The Red Court, amongst other things, is the cutout
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Vadderung is committed to defending this reality against the outsiders and removing the red court was a major blow against the outsiders. This was too important. Besides Mab and Uriel were also involved.
He was protecting the old order against the red court.
Nicodemus also wished to remove the Red Court. And if you read Changes carefully, you will notice that Arianna Ortega's coup was actually about getting the Red Court back to it's old self, rather than explore "new opportunities" according to the Red King.
Harry just made it up because there is a White Council, and who he calls the Black Council. He and Eb suspect that the White Council has been infiltrated by some really bad actors, and don't know who they can trust. So they are teaming up with trusted members for the purpose of survival, and protecting the White Council. They want to find out who the bad actors are. The dark path Eb is talking about (I think) is because if they are found out, they will be executed for what appears to be an attempt to overthrow the White Council
Actually, I believe Ebenezar came up with the name. Eb's statement in Turn Coat suggests that some of the members are actually far from being trusted. Perhaps people once Harry would have never worked with. I mean, Harry's changed quite a bit over the years. The old Harry never would have worked with Denarians, ghouls, dark wizards etc. Now look at him. How long before he works with an Outsider...
I've long played with the idea the Grey Council are the Black Council- Eb going full "burn it all down!" when Maggie died is consistent.
Which would make Cowl a member
Yeah that would be a scary idea.
Right. But we don't know what the Black Council is *for*. The Red Court, amongst other things, is the cutout
I suspect that what the Black Council is for, among other things, is the same thing Drakul and the White Council and all the serious players are for: the Stars and Stones. Whatever that means.
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Myself, I think they are about the overturn of the old order without full knowledge of what that order is for- with a few nihilists and anarchists tossed in.
Take the Outer Gates. Wizards like Eb know what Outsiders are, but do they know that the Winter Court is responsible for keeping them outside the Outer Gates, or do they just think the Gates are "shut" instead of being a citadel under constant siege. If they have that misapprehension about the Gates- that there is no need for them to be defended- then there would be much question of the Accords.
I've brought this up before, but why the Accorded nations? It makes the most sense to me if they are a mix of B-string and heirs to Winter's duties on the Gates. With the human population exploding, Red or Black Courts could take over manning duties, for instance. I've mentioned before too that I am partial to the idea that vampirism "plugs into" the port Outsiders would need, making vampires immune to direct control by Outsiders (Though not willing participation).
So what is the Black Council for? Is it a wizard-centric organization that takes the passivity of the White Council as unacceptable? Is it a union of beings looking to overturn the old order to forge a new Accords in ignorance of the threat to reality? Is it a collection of Nemesis pawns- or some combination of all of these?
Hints in the series indicate there's some kind of astral cycle that at some point, only starborn can do something, and it's a time of change- so maybe it's those planning ahead on the cycle. Maybe it's no more than a temporary union of disparate players aiming to control starborn.
The distinction between Gray Council and Black Council is based on Harry's trust of Eb- if I recall correctly, a careful parse of Changes reads that the Council showed, and also Vadderung showed, but that doesn't mean they showed together. If they messed with Kukulkan, or otherwise were traceable to the success of the Red Court, they eliminated that evidence by backing Harry.
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They knowledge about Mab guarding the outer gates is not widespread in the white council otherwise their stance towards the winter court and the Sidhe in general would be different.
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They knowledge about Mab guarding the outer gates is not widespread in the white council otherwise their stance towards the winter court and the Sidhe in general would be different.
I'd say all of the Senior Council, and some of the senior Wizards like Klaus the Toymaker i.e. just about anyone considered for Senior Council status would know about the Outer Gates, and at least part of their purpose. Many of them have been life-long scholars and their lives are a few hundred years; they probably picked up a few things.
Would the White Council treat the Winter Court differently if they all knew their real purpose? Perhaps, but I think it would largely be unchanged. Particularly in matters of foreign policy. At the end of the day, despite Winter's purpose, they are still largely a horrible murderous bunch that like to prey on humanity. I think the White Council would still treat them with heavy suspicion and limit their influence in the mortal world where they can, and defend mortals as much as they can from them (although the latter part is pretty much Summer's purpose). Look at how Ebenezar treats them - he is respectful but keeps them at arms length, same for Listens-to-Wind. Ancient Mai seems to be on reasonable terms with the Fae but I doubt she trusts them. The Merlin seems to have a fairly clinical view of everything in general. Cristos seemed to like to build political connections, so I'd say he would be friendly (at least openly), but like most politicians I doubt he has any real affection for them. Martha Liberty would be the hardest to judge but she seemed quite formal and respectful with Mab, so I'd say she's about the same as Mai or the Merlin. The Gatekeeper obviously has a fairly close relationship, you could even go so far to say that he has a 'good' relationship with all the Fae, but that's probably just as much to do with his position as his personality (he's a bit of a charmer).
Myself, I think they are about the overturn of the old order without full knowledge of what that order is for- with a few nihilists and anarchists tossed in.
Take the Outer Gates. Wizards like Eb know what Outsiders are, but do they know that the Winter Court is responsible for keeping them outside the Outer Gates, or do they just think the Gates are "shut" instead of being a citadel under constant siege. If they have that misapprehension about the Gates- that there is no need for them to be defended- then there would be much question of the Accords.
I've brought this up before, but why the Accorded nations? It makes the most sense to me if they are a mix of B-string and heirs to Winter's duties on the Gates. With the human population exploding, Red or Black Courts could take over manning duties, for instance. I've mentioned before too that I am partial to the idea that vampirism "plugs into" the port Outsiders would need, making vampires immune to direct control by Outsiders (Though not willing participation).
So what is the Black Council for? Is it a wizard-centric organization that takes the passivity of the White Council as unacceptable? Is it a union of beings looking to overturn the old order to forge a new Accords in ignorance of the threat to reality? Is it a collection of Nemesis pawns- or some combination of all of these?
Hints in the series indicate there's some kind of astral cycle that at some point, only starborn can do something, and it's a time of change- so maybe it's those planning ahead on the cycle. Maybe it's no more than a temporary union of disparate players aiming to control starborn.
The distinction between Gray Council and Black Council is based on Harry's trust of Eb- if I recall correctly, a careful parse of Changes reads that the Council showed, and also Vadderung showed, but that doesn't mean they showed together. If they messed with Kukulkan, or otherwise were traceable to the success of the Red Court, they eliminated that evidence by backing Harry.
Definitely seems to be the theme of the Black Council - disrupt the status quo. Could be that they are merely anarchists or even nihilists. But from the agents we have seen I would say neither in truth. They seem to have a set purpose, and most of it is about gathering power whilst depowering and disrupting other groups.
My theory is that Jim hadn't really planned how old the Accords was, and then sort of changed his mind half-way in. Narratively speaking I'd say they mostly serve the purpose of gathering and showcasing the various supernatural groups. But in-universe, as they were a fairly recent creation of Mab's, I'd say they have to do with the coming apocalypse and the B-team idea is as good a reason as any. Although it might be simpler than that: Mab is gathering every ally she can just to hold back the tide. She hasn't really got a plan for 'after' because there might not be an 'after'.
I think you're onto something about the composition of the Black Council and their goals.
That's a very good point - the real difference between the Black Council and the Grey (from what we currently can see) is that one is lead by supposed good guys. But Eb doesn't have a stellar record either, and neither does Harry or Vadderung. I am not sure what section of Changes you are referring to - but when Lea summons the Gray Council, one of the twelve figures is Vadderung. So I'd say he is on that team. But Harry does point out to Murphy that while it wasn't officially the White Council who showed up, it was what the White Council was supposed to be. Considering Vadderung taught the original Merlin, and that Merlin created the White Council, I'd say there's a good chance he is trying to start again. I doubt that Merlin was a white knight either, he hardly is in the original tales, and Harry points out rather wryly that if Merlin's all over the pages of history he probably was some kind of bastard. The same could be said of Harry for that matter.
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Remember what the gatekeeper said to Harry in Cold Days near the outer gates:
If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council, which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to—and that isn’t much.
I think that includes even most senior council members end that explains some of their behavior in Battle ground. They know in many respects far less than we do.
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Remember what the gatekeeper said to Harry in Cold Days near the outer gates:
I think that includes even most senior council members end that explains some of their behavior in Battle ground. They know in many respects far less than we do.
ugh... I find it hard to believe that they don't. 99% of the Council, yes, but the Senior Council? They are the most powerful wizards in the world. They got there because of being smart. I doubt there is much they aren't aware of.
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ugh... I find it hard to believe that they don't. 99% of the Council, yes, but the Senior Council? They are the most powerful wizards in the world. They got there because of being smart. I doubt there is much they aren't aware of.
They are also known for keeping secrets from each other and nobody talks about the outsiders that much openly, seeking knowledge about it is even forbidden.
There is a woj somewhere about how much the senior council knows about Harry’s past and it is something like together they know everything but they don’t share that information with each other.
I think because of that senior council members know a lot but they also have huge blanc spots. Individual research is important but sharing information is most important and they don’t.
And also if you keep information secret it is difficult to act upon it.
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They are also known for keeping secrets from each other and nobody talks about the outsiders that much openly, seeking knowledge about it is even forbidden.
There is a woj somewhere about how much the senior council knows about Harry’s past and it is something like together they know everything but they don’t share that information with each other.
I think because of that senior council members know a lot but they also have huge blanc spots. Individual research is important but sharing information is most important and they don’t.
And also if you keep information secret it is difficult to act upon it.
He also said that The Merlin knows everything about Dresden, and it causing him a great deal of stress (something about Pepto Bismol I think). Martha's special ability is all of her connections, and ability to gather intelligence....
I mean think about it. The Senior Council is worried about him being a Starborn. Why? Because they know it involves the Outsiders. They are hundreds of years old, extremely powerful, very smart, and I'm pretty sure that if they know that Outsiders are important, they will know why. Harry doesn't even know what a Starborn is, or what the Stars and Stones is, but they do. They know more than Harry.
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He also said that The Merlin knows everything about Dresden, and it causing him a great deal of stress (something about Pepto Bismol I think). Martha's special ability is all of her connections, and ability to gather intelligence....
I mean think about it. The Senior Council is worried about him being a Starborn. Why? Because they know it involves the Outsiders. They are hundreds of years old, extremely powerful, very smart, and I'm pretty sure that if they know that Outsiders are important, they will know why. Harry doesn't even know what a Starborn is, or what the Stars and Stones is, but they do. They know more than Harry.
But if they really knew they would be pleased with Mab containing and using him as the winter knight and Harry having all those responsibilities. I think the gatekeeper is.
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But if they really knew they would be pleased with Mab containing and using him as the winter knight and Harry having all those responsibilities. I think the gatekeeper is.
Maybe the Gatekeeper is, I don't know. I doubt they trust Mab. Eb sure doesn't. Nemesis has proven to be devastating to the Sidhe. Morgan was worried that Dresden was an agent of Nemesis. If Harry really is capable of controlling Outsiders, and working for Nemesis, being close to Mab could be their worst nightmare. She protects the Outer Gates, and Dresden *could* be like having an enemy behind the lines.
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The gatekeeper is because of what he knows, he made that pretty clear in cold days. The others behave that way because they don’t know as much as the gatekeeper knows. Or Vadderung.
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I mean think about it. The Senior Council is worried about him being a Starborn. Why? Because they know it involves the Outsiders. They are hundreds of years old, extremely powerful, very smart, and I'm pretty sure that if they know that Outsiders are important, they will know why. Harry doesn't even know what a Starborn is, or what the Stars and Stones is, but they do. They know more than Harry.
The impression I got, especially from the last conversation with Eb in Peace Talks, they know he is starborn, they had planned for a starborn, but are worried because they have realized they cannot control this particular starborn. Why? Possibly because Margaret upset the apple cart when she decided to give birth to one with Malcolm. It was further upset when Lord Raith murdered Margaret, and then who ever murdered Malcolm, then the ball was further dropped by Morgan.. Something fishy about how he lost Harry in the bureaucratic child care services, so he fell into Justin's hands.. Not to mention Eb who knew Margaret gave birth and then didn't come forward to protect his grandson.. So it has totally spun out of control for all of Harry's life.
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The impression I got, especially from the last conversation with Eb in Peace Talks, they know he is starborn, they had planned for a starborn, but are worried because they have realized they cannot control this particular starborn. Why? Possibly because Margaret upset the apple cart when she decided to give birth to one with Malcolm. It was further upset when Lord Raith murdered Margaret, and then who ever murdered Malcolm, then the ball was further dropped by Morgan.. Something fishy about how he lost Harry in the bureaucratic child care services, so he fell into Justin's hands.. Not to mention Eb who knew Margaret gave birth and then didn't come forward to protect his grandson.. So it has totally spun out of control for all of Harry's life.
They all know bits and pieces. Eb knows about starborn sure but he seems not that well informed about the inner workings of the winter court and non humans in general. I understand his problems with the white court but his attitude problems with the svartalves were totally unnecessary and unless he is just playing dumb he should have a better idea about Mab’s relation with Harry. He seems to have no idea about winter’s purpose and looks at duty as a fairy trick to bind you.
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They all know bits and pieces. Eb knows about starborn sure but he seems not that well informed about the inner workings of the winter court and non humans in general. I understand his problems with the white court but his attitude problems with the svartalves were totally unnecessary and unless he is just playing dumb he should have a better idea about Mab’s relation with Harry. He seems to have no idea about winter’s purpose and looks at duty as a fairy trick to bind you.
That isn't what I am trying to say, my impression is the Senior Council was in on creating their own star born so they could control him or her for their own benefit. Whatever that means since I am sure the Senior Council would say to the benefit of mankind. I think that was hijacked by Margaret, that is what really scared the hell out of them and why they had Morgan on the case since Harry's birth and the paranoia Morgan seemed to have concerning Harry.
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That isn't what I am trying to say, my impression is the Senior Council was in on creating their own star born so they could control him or her for their own benefit. Whatever that means since I am sure the Senior Council would say to the benefit of mankind. I think that was hijacked by Margaret, that is what really scared the hell out of them and why they had Morgan on the case since Harry's birth and the paranoia Morgan seemed to have concerning Harry.
I do not think hijacking a star born is possible. There is room for more than one if you know what circumstances are needed. It could not be one specific location because then the white council would have known where Margaret was if they knew how to do it. Or they did not and only Margaret knew via her Sidhe connections. There is a lot they don’t know.