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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on April 10, 2021, 03:47:02 PM

Title: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 10, 2021, 03:47:02 PM


  Okay, so six books from now Murphy returns..  How will she have changed?  Will she have changed?
What do you not want to see?  What do you want to see?  What is the worst possible form she could take?  What is the best?  Is there a form so altered that you are sorry that she was brought back at all? How will that effect the story?
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 10, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
Well she will have her opinions about Harry’s new wife of course and that is exactly why that rule exists.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 10, 2021, 05:39:04 PM
Well she will have her opinions about Harry’s new wife of course and that is exactly why that rule exists.

Will she?  What will be your reaction if Murphy has no opinion, or just doesn't care?  As a fan, what reaction would you want to see from her? 
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 10, 2021, 05:39:12 PM
At most Harry sees her from the distance fighting some outsiders or something like that. I don’t think she will return to play any meaningful role in the books again.

But Jim did something like that with Michael so you never know.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 10, 2021, 05:44:47 PM
Will she?  What will be your reaction if Murphy has no opinion, or just doesn't care?  As a fan, what reaction would you want to see from her?
Knowing Murphy she would be understanding and supportive. She understands politics. She would have an opinion and she would care but she would not try to dictate Harry.

She is still Murphy after all. We have seen no reason to believe otherwise. This is a prediction, not a fan wish. I have no real fan wishes on this topic.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: LaraBeck on April 10, 2021, 11:58:16 PM
I think one way that I would not want to see her coming back is as part of one of the fairy courts. It'd be repeating Molly's story. And I don't think that'd be good writing.

Other than that, I'm pretty open to different scenarios.

IMO, the best way for her to come back would be a Valkyrie or as some agent of the White God, maybe two-three books from now.

Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 11, 2021, 10:40:19 AM
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IMO, the best way for her to come back would be a Valkyrie or as some agent of the White God, maybe two-three books from now.

Will it?  She is too independent a thinker to be either.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 11, 2021, 11:01:53 AM
Will it?  She is too independent a thinker to be either.
She was chosen because of who she was. It will work out fine.

Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 11, 2021, 12:18:42 PM
She was chosen because of who she was. It will work out fine.

Will it?  Her having a Holy Sword didn't because she thought she knew better than the Almighty.  That is part of her charm, but if she is working directly for the All Father it might not work out so well.. Or she would have changed, then she is no longer the Murphy we all know and love.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 11, 2021, 12:30:20 PM
Will it?  Her having a Holy Sword didn't because she thought she knew better than the Almighty. 
That is a misrepresentation of what happened. She was under duress and loads of people would have made similar mistakes under the circumstances. And besides she handled exactly in a way Vadderung would appreciate so.
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That is part of her charm, but if she is working directly for the All Father it might not work out so well.. Or she would have changed, then she is no longer the Murphy we all know and love.
Or you do not know her that well. Murphy can be loyal to a purpose she understands and agrees with.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 11, 2021, 05:17:39 PM
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That is a misrepresentation of what happened. She was under duress and loads of people would have made similar mistakes under the circumstances. And besides she handled exactly in a way Vadderung would appreciate so.

No, it isn't, Nic had surrendered, even if it was a bluff, she didn't call it and he knew she wouldn't.  She made no bones before in her conversation with Harry that she felt that Nic deserved death.  So as judge and jury she condemned him with a "damn you" and tried to execute him.  It isn't up to her to judge, that is up to the Almighty..  That is why it broke!
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 11, 2021, 05:42:05 PM
No, it isn't, Nic had surrendered, even if it was a bluff, she didn't call it and he knew she wouldn't.  She made no bones before in her conversation with Harry that she felt that Nic deserved death.  So as judge and jury she condemned him with a "damn you" and tried to execute him.  It isn't up to her to judge, that is up to the Almighty..  That is why it broke!
Humans judge all the time, that does not mean they know better than the white god or whatever. Murphy lost it during the fight, she did not follow the specific demands of the sword and that was exactly why she did not want to be a knight in the first place. She just saw no other way.

And that is beside the point. She acted more like what Vadderung would like. She is not out of place there.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: LaraBeck on April 11, 2021, 06:31:53 PM
Will it?  She is too independent a thinker to be either.

Jack Murphy half-truthed Harry, which shows that he's still pretty much an independent thinker, while working for the White God / Uriel.

Gard was pretty much acting independently in the Heorot.

I don't think they lose their capacity for independent thinking or even action.

As long as the soul is there, they're still themselves, with their good traits and bads. Look at Harry, he maybe changed in some measure since becoming the Winter Knight, and you can say it's a struggle for the soul, but he's still himself.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 11, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
Will it?  Her having a Holy Sword didn't because she thought she knew better than the Almighty.  That is part of her charm, but if she is working directly for the All Father it might not work out so well.. Or she would have changed, then she is no longer the Murphy we all know and love.
Oh you misinterpret. She was chosen by the valkyries, by vadderung and most likely in agreement with Uriel and probably based on a choice just like Harry. That makes it highly likely that she is just in the right place.

Look what she was doing since changes. She got closer and closer to the einherjar and their way of thinking. It is OK.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: TrueMonk on April 11, 2021, 09:06:20 PM
I don't see why Odin would mind someone executing an enemy. Especially not Nic in that situation, which is why Nic would only try it with a KoTC.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 11, 2021, 10:29:37 PM
I don't see why Odin would mind someone executing an enemy. Especially not Nic in that situation, which is why Nic would only try it with a KoTC.
Exactly. That is why this is one of those pivotal points were she chose for Vadderung. These kind of choices decides what comes after.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 12, 2021, 06:07:55 AM
Jack Murphy half-truthed Harry, which shows that he's still pretty much an independent thinker, while working for the White God / Uriel.

Gard was pretty much acting independently in the Heorot.

I don't think they lose their capacity for independent thinking or even action.

As long as the soul is there, they're still themselves, with their good traits and bads. Look at Harry, he maybe changed in some measure since becoming the Winter Knight, and you can say it's a struggle for the soul, but he's still himself.
As Uriel said: you are your soul, you have a body. Murphy would still be Murphy if she was stuck in a wooden skull.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 12, 2021, 11:31:23 AM
As Uriel said: you are your soul, you have a body. Murphy would still be Murphy if she was stuck in a wooden skull.

Would she?  Really?
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 12, 2021, 01:20:41 PM
Would she?  Really?
Yes, she would react exactly as you would expect from Murphy in a wooden skull.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 12, 2021, 02:41:34 PM
Yes, she would react exactly as you would expect from Murphy in a wooden skull.

What?  Pissed because she is confined and forced to comply with the holder of the skull? 
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 12, 2021, 03:07:52 PM
What?  Pissed because she is confined and forced to comply with the holder of the skull?
Would you be pissed?

Of course she is. And she still has free will to stay pissed. She is not like Bob.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 12, 2021, 05:51:09 PM
Would you be pissed?

Of course she is. And she still has free will to stay pissed. She is not like Bob.

Nope, not if she came back in the same form as Bob, he has no free will, it isn't clear yet that Bonea has free will.   So what a wonderful thing for Murphy.. Not a living being anymore, it is doubtful that she'd still have the free will.. Be careful what you wish for..
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 12, 2021, 06:33:20 PM
Nope, not if she came back in the same form as Bob, he has no free will, it isn't clear yet that Bonea has free will.   
Bob has no free will because he has no soul. Murphy still has her soul. That is the meaning of walhalla, Hades or staying behind as a shade, with or without a wooden skull apartment.

This is not about coming back as a black court vampire or something like that. Walhalla is a genuine afterlife. It is Murphy who resides there.
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So what a wonderful thing for Murphy.. Not a living being anymore, it is doubtful that she'd still have the free will.. Be careful what you wish for..
That would not be Murphy. It is all about her soul. As long as she has her soul she has her free will just like Harry had or her father has.

Uriel was pretty clear for a change. It is about your soul.

If you have your soul you can theoretically return to life given a suitable body.

We are talking about Murphy, not some ghost of Murphy otherwise she would not be back and the whole discussion would be about something totally different. She either comes back with her soul or she does not come back.

Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Mira on April 12, 2021, 08:47:00 PM
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We are talking about Murphy, not some ghost of Murphy otherwise she would not be back and the whole discussion would be about something totally different. She either comes back with her soul or she does not come back.

Does she?  She isn't under Uriel's jurisdiction, she is under that of the All Father.  Do the Einhejar still have souls? 
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Gard was pretty much acting independently in the Heorot.

She is a Valkyrie, that is a bit different, also don't you think if she had the power to save Hendricks or bring him back immediately she would?  There are things she cannot do.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: Arjan on April 12, 2021, 09:12:37 PM
Does she?  She isn't under Uriel's jurisdiction, she is under that of the All Father.  Do the Einhejar still have souls? 
Sure. It is an afterlife after all. Just like Hades. Just like Deirdre went to Hades, that was Deirdre. Uriel does get most souls now but not all of them. There is even a woj about people ending up in Walhalla unexpected.

Hades explained it quite well actually. There is no reason to believe Vadderung does not get their souls.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: LostInTime on April 13, 2021, 12:29:59 AM
Odin has soulfire. He can make things real. Per WOJ, that's how he reunites body and soul to create Einherjar.

Jim has also said that Athena was a spirit of intellect that leapt out of Zeus' head, just like Bonea in Harry's head. Zeus made a body for her and fused her spirit with the body.

Odin could make a body, fuse Karin's spirit into it, and make a Valkyrie. Karin's Valkyrie would be a 'sister' to Sigrun and Freydis. And she might or might not look anything like Karin.
Title: Re: Be Careful for What You Wish For.. If Murphy Comes Back..
Post by: LaraBeck on April 13, 2021, 01:31:43 AM
Odin has soulfire. He can make things real. Per WOJ, that's how he reunites body and soul to create Einherjar.

Jim has also said that Athena was a spirit of intellect that leapt out of Zeus' head, just like Bonea in Harry's head. Zeus made a body for her and fused her spirit with the body.

Odin could make a body, fuse Karin's spirit into it, and make a Valkyrie. Karin's Valkyrie would be a 'sister' to Sigrun and Freydis. And she might or might not look anything like Karin.

Maybe, probably. But there's no need, they already have Karrin's body.