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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on March 17, 2021, 11:26:11 PM
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In Battle Ground, Harry, Eb, LTW and the wardens are tipped off that necromancy is occurring in a local cemetery. They land and find that Mavra is acting as a drummer, though the situation was a setup. We know what happened next. Afterwards, Warden Ramirez was pretty upset about what happened to Wardens Wild Bill and Yoshino.
It's likely Carlos would have had to file some kind of after action report and probably talked about the details of the fight with Captain Luccio. I don't think we know who Carlos was apprenticed to. If it has been mentioned please correct me. We don't know if Carlos has a mentor on the Senior Council or if he feels comfortable talking openly with any of them, but when he is troubled Carlos Ramirez might talk to someone else besides Captain Luccio.
The Wardens must have some kind of reports or dossier on Mavra. Ebenezer certainly knows about her. (Or IT as he prefers.) There just won't be any reports, indications or rumors that Mavra or any of the Black Court knew how to use necromancy before the events of Battle Ground. I think that sooner or later the mystery of how any of the Black Court learned necromancy will become an itch that Warden Ramirez or someone else on the Council will want to scratch. In another recent thread someone posted a WoJ about Harry having to face the consequences of his actions and I think giving Mavra "The Word of Kemler" is to big an action not to have consequences.
There isn't anything to really connect Harry to Mavra learning necromancy, except he is the reason she knows how to use necromancy. Ramirez knows that Cowl is still alive, I think. Though I don't believe he would know with the certainty that Harry has. So, in theory Cowl could be the person who shared the secret of necromancy with Mavra, though it has the problem of not being true and I don't think that will make much sense to whoever investigates it. This is just a guess, but I doubt that necromancers have ever shared their secrets with any of the vampire courts and especially the Black Court. It's just wouldn't have been in their interest to do so. So suspicion will fall on Harry, even without evidence to back it up. Harry is the only other person the Council knows, who knows how to use necromancy. He even told Luccio that he read The Word of Kemmler and Morgan may have heard that as well. So at least Captain Luccio and Ramirez know Harry could pull off a Dark Hollow if he wanted to. We don't know who Luccio may have talked to about that, but I would bet that Morgan mentioned Harry's new abilities to the Merlin.
So I think it's just a question of when Harry will have to find a way to exonerate himself, even though in this case he is guilty. Seeing as framing Cowl as Mavra's teacher will be difficult to impossible, my guess is that Harry will have to destroy the evidence, meaning destroy Mavra, before the Council can discover the truth. Plus, I almost forgot, Mavra may still have The Word of Kemmler in her possession, so Harry has to get rid of it as well. Does Drakul know how to use necromancy? With luck he will have thought that learning that skill was beneath him.
Any thoughts on this subject?
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So where does it say that Harry showed Mavra how to do necromancy... just because Harry's only one performs necromancy doesn't mean he's the only one knows how to do it
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- Harry gave Mavra the necromancy user's manual.
- Some members of the Senior Council want to find reasons to go after after Harry.
- Most of Kemmler's disciples are dead.
- Most important, there will be consequences for giving Mavra The Word.
If nothing else, Harry may be accused of deliberately leading the younger wardens into a trap.
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You're all putting too much stock in Mavra having the book. I'm pretty sure it had to do with keeping people from knowing how to use necromancy against the black Court. I just don't understand how people assume that nobody knows necromancy. Especially the bad guys.
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In dead beat nobody was surprised that Harry knew necromancy.
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In Battle Ground, Harry, Eb, LTW and the wardens are tipped off that necromancy is occurring in a local cemetery. They land and find that Mavra is acting as a drummer, though the situation was a setup. We know what happened next. Afterwards, Warden Ramirez was pretty upset about what happened to Wardens Wild Bill and Yoshino.
It's likely Carlos would have had to file some kind of after action report and probably talked about the details of the fight with Captain Luccio. I don't think we know who Carlos was apprenticed to. If it has been mentioned please correct me. We don't know if Carlos has a mentor on the Senior Council or if he feels comfortable talking openly with any of them, but when he is troubled Carlos Ramirez might talk to someone else besides Captain Luccio.
The Wardens must have some kind of reports or dossier on Mavra. Ebenezer certainly knows about her. (Or IT as he prefers.) There just won't be any reports, indications or rumors that Mavra or any of the Black Court knew how to use necromancy before the events of Battle Ground. I think that sooner or later the mystery of how any of the Black Court learned necromancy will become an itch that Warden Ramirez or someone else on the Council will want to scratch. In another recent thread someone posted a WoJ about Harry having to face the consequences of his actions and I think giving Mavra "The Word of Kemler" is to big an action not to have consequences.
There isn't anything to really connect Harry to Mavra learning necromancy, except he is the reason she knows how to use necromancy. Ramirez knows that Cowl is still alive, I think. Though I don't believe he would know with the certainty that Harry has. So, in theory Cowl could be the person who shared the secret of necromancy with Mavra, though it has the problem of not being true and I don't think that will make much sense to whoever investigates it. This is just a guess, but I doubt that necromancers have ever shared their secrets with any of the vampire courts and especially the Black Court. It's just wouldn't have been in their interest to do so. So suspicion will fall on Harry, even without evidence to back it up. Harry is the only other person the Council knows, who knows how to use necromancy. He even told Luccio that he read The Word of Kemmler and Morgan may have heard that as well. So at least Captain Luccio and Ramirez know Harry could pull off a Dark Hollow if he wanted to. We don't know who Luccio may have talked to about that, but I would bet that Morgan mentioned Harry's new abilities to the Merlin.
So I think it's just a question of when Harry will have to find a way to exonerate himself, even though in this case he is guilty. Seeing as framing Cowl as Mavra's teacher will be difficult to impossible, my guess is that Harry will have to destroy the evidence, meaning destroy Mavra, before the Council can discover the truth. Plus, I almost forgot, Mavra may still have The Word of Kemmler in her possession, so Harry has to get rid of it as well. Does Drakul know how to use necromancy? With luck he will have thought that learning that skill was beneath him.
Any thoughts on this subject?
Oh I believe the book of Kemmler is grade school stuff for Drakul. I think that Mavra wants it to betray him at the Stars and Stones. Lord Raith apparently thought he could be a player before getting neutered, so Mavra could also be one. I think she's pretending to be loyal to Drakul until the timing is right, and try to grab power for herself. That book has vast knowledge that can help her a great deal.
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You're all putting too much stock in Mavra having the book. I'm pretty sure it had to do with keeping people from knowing how to use necromancy against the black Court. I just don't understand how people assume that nobody knows necromancy. Especially the bad guys.
Choices have consequences. It's been pointed out again and again in the books, and Jim himself. Dresden handed over a book with scary kinds of knowledge. Everything from Necromancy, to the DarkHallow. A book written by a man that cheated death over and over, and took the entire White Council to defeat. He handed that over to Mavra, a Black Court vampire. To think that Dresden choosing to hand over that book to her won't have any consequences??? Well I strongly disagree.
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In dead beat nobody was surprised that Harry knew necromancy.
Doubtless there had been rumours to this effect for years before he gained the knowledge.
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Doubtless there had been rumours to this effect for years before he gained the knowledge.
Due to the irregular nature of Harry's apprenticeship, it could be that most or part of the Council don't know what he knows. Eb might have kept the information to himself or just to his friends.
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Choices have consequences. It's been pointed out again and again in the books, and Jim himself. Dresden handed over a book with scary kinds of knowledge. Everything from Necromancy, to the DarkHallow. A book written by a man that cheated death over and over, and took the entire White Council to defeat. He handed that over to Mavra, a Black Court vampire. To think that Dresden choosing to hand over that book to her won't have any consequences??? Well I strongly disagree.
Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"
Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.
Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.
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Due to the irregular nature of Harry's apprenticeship, it could be that most or part of the Council don't know what he knows. Eb might have kept the information to himself or just to his friends.
I doubt that Eb knows beyond the fact that as the sixteen year old kid he soul gazed was naturally
very powerful and an angry adolescent. However the soul gaze would tell him nothing about the amount of actual magical knowledge Harry had. I also doubt that Eb tested that knowledge fearing perhaps to snap the fragile Doom that young Harry's life hung by. So instead, Eb taught ethics and prescribed physical labor to vent young passions. Notice also that Eb didn't even insist that Harry finish high school for crap sake, what was that all about? At sixteen Harry should have had at least two years of school to finish, and could have finished at the local high school and not later have to get his GED. What was Eb afraid of? Unless it was done on purpose, just another way to limit Harry.
We know from the books that Harry is very self conscience of his lack of formal education and it does
hold him back sometimes. Notice also that one of the things Harry insisted Molly do as a condition of her apprenticeship is finish high school.
Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"
Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.
Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.
I don't believe it was that simple because blackmail never is. Also if I remember correctly when Harry handed the book over to her, he also informed her that he had also read the book and understood it, and would use it against her. However having said that I agree there will be consequences. However as far as Mavra and necromancy, I doubt that Council would be all that
curious, after all what do Black Court Vamps do? They areliterally the walking dead to begin with. That is how they recruit, they kill their victims and then raise them up as vampires, it is a known fact.
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I don't think anything Drakul and his posse were doing in the cemetery is more advanced than it's reasonable to assume Drakul already knew in his own right. The Word was Kemmler's final book with the most advanced secrets.
Raising zombies is elementary stuff by comparison. If Drakul didn't know that before Kemmler was even born, he could easily have got copies of the elementary necromancy texts that Kemmler was flooding around Europe to cause problems for the Wardens by giving two-bit baddies real power.
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I am inclined to agree that Mavra and the other Black Court wizards/sorcerers knew at least some necromancy well before Dresden handed the Word of Kemmler over. Quite likely well before Kemmler existed (depending on how old Kemmler is). The Black Court have been around since the dawn of mankind supposedly, I'd say it's likely they knew at least some basic necromancy to begin with. Drakul almost certainly.
It's also not a straight forward leap that because Mavra can do necromancy, or because Harry gave the WoK and also performed necromancy, that either is responsible for the "Black Council" knowing and using necromancy. I mean, Kemmler might have started it or any of his apprentices (likely Cowl). Or perhaps it's older. Which besides all that assumes the White Council will even investigate. Remember that the White Council officially maintains that there is no Black Council. Assuming such a body of people even exist.
I do agree that there will be consequences for Harry giving Mavra the WoK. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Council ended up blaming Harry for whatever happens with that book (assuming they somehow learn that he gave Mavra the WoK).
I doubt that Eb knows beyond the fact that as the sixteen year old kid he soul gazed was naturally very powerful and an angry adolescent. However the soul gaze would tell him nothing about the amount of actual magical knowledge Harry had. I also doubt that Eb tested that knowledge fearing perhaps to snap the fragile Doom that young Harry's life hung by. So instead, Eb taught ethics and prescribed physical labor to vent young passions.
Where do you get the idea that Eb wouldn't have taught Harry magic or have learned what Dumorne tutored Harry in? I have seen this idea around the internet a bit and am unsure why it's so prevalent.
I don't remember anything about Harry only learning farm labor and ethics (although I do remember that was part of his training). Eb showed him how to cut a staff and such, taught him a bit about the White Council etc. Harry even says that most wizards learn from a book that Ebenezar wrote about the basics of moving energy. I see no reason why Eb wouldn't have taught him some, and I am sure it was both his job and he would have been curious to see what his grandchild (the starborn and student of Dumorne) would have been able to do. In fact, Harry even references that he has had practice duels with Eb (In Dead Beat when duelling Cowl). So I think it's pretty clear that Eb trained and tested Harry at least to some extent in magical theory and practice.
Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"
Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.
Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.
I mean, I understand the frustration and I get the sentiment. In saying that it was someone he cared about. The smart move might have been to let Bianca have Susan in Grave Peril (or so it would seem). But as Mira points out who knows what other consequences could have arisen. Not to mention that tiny little thing...caring about someone. I mean, if you're going to go to the wall you might as well do it for someone you love. Love isn't logic, as Mab pointed out rather well in Battle Ground. There also does seem to be a sense of divine justice in the Dresden Files. Mavra has gotten hers a few times, and will again. Think about what Michael Carpenter says to the Denarians in Skin Game - power doesn't insulate you from your choices, there is a divine Judge after all. But I do agree it will probably come back to haunt Dresden at some level.
And I do agree with it's likely Mavra will attempt Godhood before the end (assuming the WoK didn't go to Drakul...but he doesn't seem to need it for that sort of thing). It seems more likely that Mavra wanted the book to become a major player, rather than any other spells contained therein. She also could have given it to Cowl...but that seems less likely.
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Where do you get the idea that Eb wouldn't have taught Harry magic or have learned what Dumorne tutored Harry in? I have seen this idea around the internet a bit and am unsure why it's so prevalent.
I don't remember anything about Harry only learning farm labor and ethics (although I do remember that was part of his training). Eb showed him how to cut a staff and such, taught him a bit about the White Council etc. Harry even says that most wizards learn from a book that Ebenezar wrote about the basics of moving energy. I see no reason why Eb wouldn't have taught him some, and I am sure it was both his job and he would have been curious to see what his grandchild (the starborn and student of Dumorne) would have been able to do. In fact, Harry even references that he has had practice duels with Eb (In Dead Beat when duelling Cowl). So I think it's pretty clear that Eb trained and tested Harry at least to some extent in magical theory and practice.
Perhaps, but not as much as he might have, had Harry been an ordinary apprentice. Also considering Eb's juice as a wizard? His duels with Harry may have been like Harry teaching
Molly defense with snow balls. The Council was afraid of Harry as a sixteen year old, to keep
him alive, Eb would have done his best to limit his grand son, and he did. I still argue he didn't teach Harry a whole lot of new magic. It still doesn't answer the question as to why Eb didn't insist that Harry return to high school and finish his education, even if it amounted only to formal Latin class and shop, both would have helped him.
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Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.
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Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.
Yup, which also meant that he nixed teaching Harry any new magic that might make him seen as even a greater threat to the Council. Big clue, he wasn't allowed into the teleport section of the library at headquarters/
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Perhaps, but not as much as he might have, had Harry been an ordinary apprentice. Also considering Eb's juice as a wizard? His duels with Harry may have been like Harry teaching
Molly defense with snow balls. The Council was afraid of Harry as a sixteen year old, to keep
him alive, Eb would have done his best to limit his grand son, and he did. I still argue he didn't teach Harry a whole lot of new magic. It still doesn't answer the question as to why Eb didn't insist that Harry return to high school and finish his education, even if it amounted only to formal Latin class and shop, both would have helped him.
Yeah, I don't disagree he might have taught Harry more in a "standard" apprenticeship. But then again, part of it was also to do with the fact that Eb felt he was too harsh on Margaret and so perhaps not. And of course, I am not saying Eb went full out when he did practice duels with Harry. Harry didn't even really know how powerful Eb was until at least when Eb tells him about some of the disasters he caused. Let alone what he saw in Changes and even Battle Ground. If he had duelled Eb for real, he would have died even without Eb's licence to kill. But what you're saying doesn't actually prove that Eb didn't teach Harry magic, or deliberately limited his knowledge (whatever the reason). I think that Harry had been through enough without trying to force him to finish high school with limited benefits, apart from perhaps trying to teach him to see things through, and perhaps also try and socialise him and keep things as 'normal' as possible. I doubt it would have made a real difference. Besides, I think it was as much for Eb's protection as Harry's. With Harry out in the open they were both vulnerable.
Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.
Not sure it was just one goal as such, but certainly there was at least a central goal. But I do agree by and large with the idea. I think that whatever Harry is, and whatever Harry is being shaped into, Eb is both aware of it (and perhaps not all of it is to do with being a starborn, although that seems to be the main bit) and was trying to make sure Harry had the choice not to become whatever everyone is trying to make him. To make sure he understood that no one could force him to do anything he didn't want to do. To that extent, I'd say he succeeded.
Yup, which also meant that he nixed teaching Harry any new magic that might make him seen as even a greater threat to the Council. Big clue, he wasn't allowed into the teleport section of the library at headquarters/
Well...I think the Council have bigger worries than whether Harry knew how to do advanced Thaumaturgy etc. Especially concerning Harry. Harry wasn't allowed in the 'forbidden section' because the Council is pretty serious about things being forbidden, and Harry is both some young punk troublemaker (to them) and not a well-respected researcher...who might be allowed such knowledge for purely academic purposes. You get more flies with honey etc. Wouldn't surprise me to learn Margaret Le Fay, Justin etc. had been in there. Probably any and all of the Senior Council (past and present).
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Yeah, I don't disagree he might have taught Harry more in a "standard" apprenticeship. But then again, part of it was also to do with the fact that Eb felt he was too harsh on Margaret and so perhaps not. And of course, I am not saying Eb went full out when he did practice duels with Harry. Harry didn't even really know how powerful Eb was until at least when Eb tells him about some of the disasters he caused. Let alone what he saw in Changes and even Battle Ground. If he had duelled Eb for real, he would have died even without Eb's licence to kill. But what you're saying doesn't actually prove that Eb didn't teach Harry magic, or deliberately limited his knowledge (whatever the reason). I think that Harry had been through enough without trying to force him to finish high school with limited benefits, apart from perhaps trying to teach him to see things through, and perhaps also try and socialise him and keep things as 'normal' as possible. I doubt it would have made a real difference. Besides, I think it was as much for Eb's protection as Harry's. With Harry out in the open they were both vulnerable.
We have Harry's own words that Eb didn't teach him magic. Harry tells us what Justin taught him and Elaine, he tells stories about that, but nothing beyond "ethics" as far as Eb is concerned. That
isn't to say that Eb didn't teach him any magic, but while Harry tells us how Justin taught him fire magic and defense magic, no stories about Eb.. Now he does tell how he burned the barn down, but it wasn't because Eb taught him fire magic.
Well, socialization is important isn't it. So if Harry only got that it would be huge, but he also could have taken formal Latin classes. Since all the important business of the Council is done in Latin, knowing Latin would be important, so why was Harry forced to do it through a correspondent course?
He thus comes to Council meetings ill equipped to fully understand the meaning of what is being said, and condescended to by the likes of the Merlin because of it.
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We have Harry's own words that Eb didn't teach him magic. Harry tells us what Justin taught him and Elaine, he tells stories about that, but nothing beyond "ethics" as far as Eb is concerned. That
isn't to say that Eb didn't teach him any magic, but while Harry tells us how Justin taught him fire magic and defense magic, no stories about Eb.. Now he does tell how he burned the barn down, but it wasn't because Eb taught him fire magic.
Well, socialization is important isn't it. So if Harry only got that it would be huge, but he also could have taken formal Latin classes. Since all the important business of the Council is done in Latin, knowing Latin would be important, so why was Harry forced to do it through a correspondent course?
He thus comes to Council meetings ill equipped to fully understand the meaning of what is being said, and condescended to by the likes of the Merlin because of it.
Well, even if it's true that Harry said Eb didn't teach him magic (could you cite the reference?) - then Harry also has contradicted himself. How is Eb teaching Harry how to create magical artefacts such as staves, rods etc or Eb practice dueling with Harry not teaching him? Why else have a practice duel? Just because Harry hasn't discussed all his lessons with Eb isn't evidence of no lessons. Also on the one hand you say Eb didn't teach Harry magic, then you say he did...which is it?
Well he might as well have just learned Latin from Ebenezar as much as anything else. That in itself seems a fairly huge oversight.
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. . . and just freaking vanished. I don’t mean that he went behind a veil, or teleported, or opened a portal to the Nevernever. I can do those things,
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 117). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Well, even if it's true that Harry said Eb didn't teach him magic (could you cite the reference?) - then Harry also has contradicted himself. How is Eb teaching Harry how to create magical artefacts such as staves, rods etc or Eb practice dueling with Harry not teaching him? Why else have a practice duel? Just because Harry hasn't discussed all his lessons with Eb isn't evidence of no lessons. Also on the one hand you say Eb didn't teach Harry magic, then you say he did...which is it?
Well he might as well have just learned Latin from Ebenezar as much as anything else. That in itself seems a fairly huge oversight.
But that is the whole freaking point, why didn't Eb teach him Latin? Or why didn't Eb tell him he needed to finish school, take Latin class so he'd understand and fit in at Council meetings? That is just common sense isn't it? The evidence that Eb didn't teach him much magic is Harry's own word that he didn't.
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Ebenezer clearly teaches Harry some magic like creating wizard staves but the emphasis was not on learning magic but on learning when not to use it. Ebenezer was the reasonable did not eventuate magic to heat his shower because that was using magic for selfish reasons and that would start a sliding process ending in cackling law breaking craziness.
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Ebenezer clearly teaches Harry some magic like creating wizard staves but the emphasis was not on learning magic but on learning when not to use it. Ebenezer was the reasonable did not eventuate magic to heat his shower because that was using magic for selfish reasons and that would start a sliding process ending in cackling law breaking craziness.
Yes, pretty minor stuff, Harry has always known what a bad ass Eb was. However Eb didn't teach any of the stuff or even the basics for what we saw Eb do in their duel. Eb was about ethics etc, Harry bought into all of it, that is why he felt so betrayed when he learned that Eb was the Blackstaff, the Council assassin... If he had wanted to, Eb could have taught Harry stuff that made
Justin's teaching seem like kindergarten. However Eb also know what a razor's edge Harry was balancing on, the last thing he wanted was for Harry to become more powerful than he already was, then his death would indeed have been demanded. Perhaps that was the point of seeing to it that he didn't learn Latin as well, to keep him non threatening. You will notice that Harry saw to it that Molly learn Latin, thus improving his own in the process.
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But that is the whole freaking point, why didn't Eb teach him Latin? Or why didn't Eb tell him he needed to finish school, take Latin class so he'd understand and fit in at Council meetings? That is just common sense isn't it? The evidence that Eb didn't teach him much magic is Harry's own word that he didn't.
Eb gave him his space because Harry was against authority, and angry (I know a real shocker). He knew Harry was young, and had plenty of time to learn magic. We consider school age a great time to learn magic but wizards who live hundreds of years see things differently I'd think.
Didn't Eb mention that Harry's Latin was rusty, or asked if he'd been practicing a long way back? I think he did. Eb probably tried to teach Harry different things, but Harry has always been bone headed.
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Eb gave him his space because Harry was against authority, and angry (I know a real shocker). He knew Harry was young, and had plenty of time to learn magic. We consider school age a great time to learn magic but wizards who live hundreds of years see things differently I'd think.
Didn't Eb mention that Harry's Latin was rusty, or asked if he'd been practicing a long way back? I think he did. Eb probably tried to teach Harry different things, but Harry has always been bone headed.
I agree that Eb after the soul gaze feared pushing Harry too much, mostly because of Margaret. However I still think if Eb had sent Harry to high school to finish and learn his Latin from a professional teacher it would have gone better. I don't think Eb tried either, because the way
Harry idolized him early on, I'd have thought he'd have applied himself a lot more than he did to learning the language.
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I agree that Eb after the soul gaze feared pushing Harry too much, mostly because of Margaret. However I still think if Eb had sent Harry to high school to finish and learn his Latin from a professional teacher it would have gone better. I don't think Eb tried either, because the way
Harry idolized him early on, I'd have thought he'd have applied himself a lot more than he did to learning the language.
Harry saw the Council as his enemies (for wanting to cut his head off). He may have deliberately didn't want to learn Latin because it made him feel in some way that he was following their rules, when he didn't really want to be associated with them.
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Harry saw the Council as his enemies (for wanting to cut his head off). He may have deliberately didn't want to learn Latin because it made him feel in some way that he was following their rules, when he didn't really want to be associated with them.
Except the importance of understanding what they were saying isn't about obeying the rules so much as just knowing what is going on. If there aren't a whole lot of members on the Council that he can trust to tell him the truth, he needs to be able to understand fully what is being said for himself. I also disagree about Harry's feelings towards the Council, for a guy who didn't want to be associated with them he sure talked them up a lot in spite of everything.
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Except the importance of understanding what they were saying isn't about obeying the rules so much as just knowing what is going on. If there aren't a whole lot of members on the Council that he can trust to tell him the truth, he needs to be able to understand fully what is being said for himself. I also disagree about Harry's feelings towards the Council, for a guy who didn't want to be associated with them he sure talked them up a lot in spite of everything.
He wore a bathrobe to an important meeting that was about him staying on as a member...... He has respect for the Council's power, and on some level is proud to be a wizard, but I don't think he's a big fan. Over the years he's gotten better towards them, but in the beginning he was pretty openly defiant towards them. His darker urges was to destroy them when he felt the dark power of the house in Storm Front. He punched Morgan in the mouth too. I mean he really didn't like them.
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He wore a bathrobe to an important meeting that was about him staying on as a member...
Yeah, well that had more to do with his state of mind than his respect or disrespect of the Council. If you will remember, 1] Harry was in what could only be called a clinical depression over Susan. He let everything from his hair to his place go to hell in a hand basket. 2] Mister had either thrown up or pooped in the robe he normally would wear to meetings. There was no time to clean it, given his state of mind he figured a bath robe was better than no robe at all. I really don't think it was about him being a smart ass.
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Yeah, well that had more to do with his state of mind than his respect or disrespect of the Council. If you will remember, 1] Harry was in what could only be called a clinical depression over Susan. He let everything from his hair to his place go to hell in a hand basket. 2] Mister had either thrown up or pooped in the robe he normally would wear to meetings. There was no time to clean it, given his state of mind he figured a bath robe was better than no robe at all. I really don't think it was about him being a smart ass.
Depression or no depression, it was still him turning up to a meeting after causing the single largest loss of life for the White Council ever inflicted by an enemy in nothing but a bathrobe and showing that he didn't even bother to learn Latin fully. Bad first impressions stick.
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Depression or no depression, it was still him turning up to a meeting after causing the single largest loss of life for the White Council ever inflicted by an enemy in nothing but a bathrobe and showing that he didn't even bother to learn Latin fully. Bad first impressions stick.
Wait a minute, it was in Summer Knight that he showed up in a bathrobe, a lot died at the party in Grave Peril, he hadn't caused the single largest loss of life ever inflicted on the enemy for the Council at that point. So showing up in a robe covered in cat puke would have been better? Harry hasn't shown himself to
be a genius in learning languages, ever try to take a course by correspondence?
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Wait a minute, it was in Summer Knight that he showed up in a bathrobe, a lot died at the party in Grave Peril, he hadn't caused the single largest loss of life ever inflicted on the enemy for the Council at that point. So showing up in a robe covered in cat puke would have been better? Harry hasn't shown himself to
be a genius in learning languages, ever try to take a course by correspondence?
"Yes," he said, still remote. "Ortega killed more of the White Council than any enemy in our history during the attack at Archangel." His voice faltered for a moment. "He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finish the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde. Killed him and almost two hundred of his personal retainers. And I killed nearly a hundred people there in the house with them. Servants. Followers. Food."
The Archangel assault was a pretty big deal even if the events of Dead Beat blew it out of the water and as far as the WC was concerned it could be laid at Dresden's feet for starting a war, and then he showed that in the decade+ since he heard about the WC he never tried to get fluent in Latin despite presumably having more comprehensive options than a correspondence course.
The robes were just another nail in the coffin after that.
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The Archangel assault was a pretty big deal even if the events of Dead Beat blew it out of the water and as far as the WC was concerned it could be laid at Dresden's feet for starting a war, and then he showed that in the decade+ since he heard about the WC he never tried to get fluent in Latin despite presumably having more comprehensive options than a correspondence course.
The robes were just another nail in the coffin after that.
Except Harry didn't have anything to do with the attack on Archangel. That was on Eb, his decision to attack after Simon was killed. Eb may have used Harry as part of his justification, but Harry had nothing to do with it.
Um, Latin isn't exactly something you can take a "conversational" course in unlike Spanish or some other languages. There is a difference, some classes concentrate on the written and people can take more than one year of say French but never be able to speak it well. Since Latin isn't spoken anymore, it would be difficult without help to be fluent. Also do not dismiss how depressed Harry was, he could have used both medication and therapy.. Being that depressed, he isn't going to give a damn what the Council thought of his bathrobe.
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Except Harry didn't have anything to do with the attack on Archangel. That was on Eb, his decision to attack after Simon was killed. Eb may have used Harry as part of his justification, but Harry had nothing to do with it.
Umm, what? The attack on Archangel had everything to do with Harry, it was the Red Court's opening strike of the war Harry started. It's where Simon was killed.
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Umm, what? The attack on Archangel had everything to do with Harry, it was the Red Court's opening strike of the war Harry started. It's where Simon was killed.
No, it had nothing to do with Harry, he was merely an excuse. The Red Court was going to strike Archangel anyway, and as Shiro pointed out, prematurely. Harry didn't start any war that the Red Court wasn't already chomping at the bit to fight anyway.
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No, it had nothing to do with Harry, he was merely an excuse. The Red Court was going to strike Archangel anyway, and as Shiro pointed out, prematurely. Harry didn't start any war that the Red Court wasn't already chomping at the bit to fight anyway.
Yeah, but the White Council doesn't know that.
As far as they're aware, all those people got killed because Harry murdered a foreign dignitary while serving as their representative.
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Yeah, but the White Council doesn't know that.
As far as they're aware, all those people got killed because Harry murdered a foreign dignitary while serving as their representative.
That was years ago... Who knows what they discovered after the Red Court was vanquished... There had to have been so much intelligence they were able to obtain at Red Court strongholds. Intelligence that would have shown them that the Reds had been quietly planning the war. Shiro knew about it, I'd imagine the Council would have figured it out too.
I'm not saying Harry would have been given any kind of congratulations or anything. Only that they would have realized that Harry had set things off early, and it saved their bacon in the long run.
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That was years ago... Who knows what they discovered after the Red Court was vanquished... There had to have been so much intelligence they were able to obtain at Red Court strongholds. Intelligence that would have shown them that the Reds had been quietly planning the war. Shiro knew about it, I'd imagine the Council would have figured it out too.
I'm not saying Harry would have been given any kind of congratulations or anything. Only that they would have realized that Harry had set things off early, and it saved their bacon in the long run.
We're talking about the white council as of Summer Knight, not any time after.
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We're talking about the white council as of Summer Knight, not any time after.
Oh my bad.
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Yeah, but the White Council doesn't know that.
As far as they're aware, all those people got killed because Harry murdered a foreign dignitary while serving as their representative.
They could have investigated, and Bianca died after the party, no one directly died because she did. Also it wasn't Harry that killed her but the ghosts of her own victims..
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They could have investigated,
The white council never investigates when they have an easy answer that suits them.
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The white council never investigates when they have an easy answer that suits them.
Which says it was political from the start, which it was.
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They could have investigated, and Bianca died after the party, no one directly died because she did. Also it wasn't Harry that killed her but the ghosts of her own victims..
Bianca died after the party because Harry went after her again (a second offence on top of burning the party) and refused to take the option to avoid war.
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Bianca died after the party because Harry went after her again (a second offence on top of burning the party) and refused to take the option to avoid war.
He was trying to save Susan.. It was a bit of a set up because Bianca blamed Harry for Rachel's death.. When it was Bianca that fed upon her till death. Mavra was really behind it, Bianca was really second rate with delusions of grandeur. Nor did the Red Court seriously think that Harry would accept their "compromise," they wanted war.
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Bianca died after the party because Harry went after her again (a second offence on top of burning the party) and refused to take the option to avoid war.
I wonder if things would have been different if Harry instructed the Council to kick him out, and blame him entirely for what happened. I wonder if the Red Court would have still went to war, claiming the Council was behind it.
I suspect that someone has been manipulating everyone. The Council, the Red Court, Harry.. They have been pulling strings for a long time in order to get to Dresden. To force him into the position of accepting a deal of some kind.