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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on January 29, 2021, 08:47:10 PM
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Doodling on Reddit and it occurred to me to ask who broke Little Chicago? Bob recognizes the fault after the fact. Did Lash break it? Did she manipulate Harry to do so? It would explain why Uriel moves Michael around at the start of Proven Guilty. And it would explain why Lash had a panic attack when Harry went to use LC. Could Uriel have warned Mab that LC was hosed and going to kill Harry?
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Nobody broke Little Chicago Little Chicago was damaged through a mental attack from cowl. Before that little Chicago wasn't finished or had like a wavelength not finished or connected or something like that. But Bob noticed that something was wrong and it was fixed but not buy them and it should have killed Harry if it was used the way it was
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Little Chicago wasn't sabotaged, they screwed up along the way when designing it and didn't notice until someone came in and fixed it while they were gone.
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Why did Uriel send Michael away at the start of Proven Guilty? what act was he balancing?
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Why did Uriel send Michael away at the start of Proven Guilty? what act was he balancing?
Michael going away at the start of PG was his standard job as a knight. He helped out against the vampire attack on the camp and then at Harry's urging he went back the same way as the WC and saved them from the second assault with outsiders. Nothing unusual.
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Did you even read the books LOL
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Little Chicago wasn't sabotaged, they screwed up along the way when designing it and didn't notice until someone came in and fixed it while they were gone.
hadn't he used it for a couple of minor things previously without it blowing up in his face? I always thought the build up came later even if it was natural (which I don't think it was)
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hadn't he used it for a couple of minor things previously without it blowing up in his face? I always thought the build up came later even if it was natural (which I don't think it was)
“And you want to try to use Little Chicago to find it?”
“Maybe,” I said. “Do you think it will work?”
“I think that the Wright Brothers tested their new stuff at Kitty Hawk instead of trying it over the Grand Canyon for a reason,” Bob said. “Specifically, because if the plane folded due to flawed design, they might survive it at Kitty Hawk.”
“Or maybe they couldn’t afford to travel,” I said. “Besides, how dangerous could it be?”
Bob stared at me for a second. Then he said, “You’ve been pouring energy into this thing every night for six months, Harry, and right now it’s holding about three hundred times the amount of energy that kinetic ring you wear will contain.”
I blinked. At full power, that ring could almost knock a car onto its side. Three hundred times that kind of energy translated to… well, something I’d rather not experience within the cramped confines of the lab. “It’s got that much in it?”
“Yes, and you haven’t tested it yet. If you’ve screwed up some of the harmonics, it could blow up in your face, worst-case scenario. Best case, you only blow out the project and set yourself back to ground zero.”
“To square one,” I corrected him. “Square one is the beginning of a project. Ground zero is the area immediately under a bomb blast.”
“One may tend to resemble the other,” Bob said sourly.
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I don't know that I believe it but nothing in the text says that it couldn't be true. The biggest factor in my thinking is Lash's response when Harry does use it. It's the first and only time that, once he is aware of her, that she obstructs him. She is without a doubt able to twist what he sees in real time. And what's the point of the passage? What is Jim trying to say.
Did you even read the books LOL
Nah, I just make my arguments from the text on the book jackets.
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The construction of Little Chicago required Harry to gather actual peices of Chicago to form the connection. Perhaps he gathered something that was designed with some form of protections, and didn't realize it. Like a magical trojan horse.
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The big thing to me about it is, Bob didn't notice it, and then suddenly hindsight 20/20 he does. Something about that just isn't right..
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The big thing to me about it is, Bob didn't notice it, and then suddenly hindsight 20/20 he does. Something about that just isn't right..
Bob did warn Harry about the dangers. This implies that he is capable of missing things. After it blew up he was able to identify the issue.
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Lash has a hissy fit after the fact when they go to look for Molly in the back half. But when Harry first attempts to use LC while it was still broken Lash is all crickets. Why bitch the second time and not the first? Would she ended up any deader the second time around?
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After it blew up he was able to identify the issue.
but it didn't blow up? He recognized the issue that USED to exist later after it no longer did. Even if he did genuinely miss it, him realizing it WAS missed and it's no longer there is odd, no? The order of things just seems all wrong with him. If he knew later it was gone then he knew about it in the first place, looked right at it, and didn't realize what it was until someone fixed it? But still remembered what it WAS before it was fixed... Afterwards?
It's just not right I tell you 🧐 trying to wrap my head around the logic in that boggles the mind.
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but it didn't blow up?
Oh it's been a while. I thought it kind of blew Harry out of his shoes, but could have been worse.
He recognized the issue that USED to exist later after it no longer did. Even if he did genuinely miss it, him realizing it WAS missed and it's no longer there is odd, no? The order of things just seems all wrong with him. If he knew later it was gone then he knew about it in the first place, looked right at it, and didn't realize what it was until someone fixed it? But still remembered what it WAS before it was fixed... Afterwards?
It's just not right I tell you 🧐 trying to wrap my head around the logic in that boggles the mind.
I do think it's very odd, and it's supposed to be. Someone did something that kept Harry from being blown up, and we don't know who it is.
What I suspect: Someone needed to use Bob. I suspect Elaine. She knows Harry's style, and his magical defenses. She see's little Chicago and spots the issue. She repairs it but can't tell Harry simply because it would expose she'd been there.
As for Bob noticing afterwards.... I look at it this way. Imagine you've built an engine, and it looks good. You run the engine for the first time and because of the forces being exerted you realize that the engine should have exploded, only to find someone had made alterations to it. I suspect something like this happened. Bob is incredible but even he can error. He didn't realize it until after LC was opperated.
Perhaps Cowl sabotaged LC, and then Kumori returned to fix it.
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:)
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I remember doing an intense reread of Proven Guilty to try and determine what exactly happened in that book without referring to other books in the series. And the most obvious answer for who fixed Little Chicago is...
Harry himself. I submit that Harry at some point gets unstuck in time. He skirts the no time travel law by mentally time traveling, a la Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse Five or Desmond from Lost.
Early in the novel, Harry makes a big deal about how realistic Lash's illusions are, and then promptly gets hit by a mysterious car. This was an illusion because Future Harry made an ally of Lash, and they used the ensuing concussion to hide Future Harry as a ridealong in PG Harry's skull.
Bob and Harry also discuss time travel at length because of the future info that Rashid passes on to Harry. We never find out what this future info is it anything about it. I suspect this is also Future Harry ensuring that PG happens the way it's supposed to.
Finally, Little Chicago. Future Harry fixed it. Any questions?
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How about this for an idea. Little Chicago allowed Harry to connect to Chicago because he had little pieces of Chicago attached to it.
What if it allowed someone located elsewhere to access it? Just as it reaches out, it may allow someone to reach in... They fixed it remotely.....
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I remember doing an intense reread of Proven Guilty to try and determine what exactly happened in that book without referring to other books in the series. And the most obvious answer for who fixed Little Chicago is...
Harry himself. I submit that Harry at some point gets unstuck in time. He skirts the no time travel law by mentally time traveling, a la Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse Five or Desmond from Lost.
Early in the novel, Harry makes a big deal about how realistic Lash's illusions are, and then promptly gets hit by a mysterious car. This was an illusion because Future Harry made an ally of Lash, and they used the ensuing concussion to hide Future Harry as a ridealong in PG Harry's skull.
Bob and Harry also discuss time travel at length because of the future info that Rashid passes on to Harry. We never find out what this future info is it anything about it. I suspect this is also Future Harry ensuring that PG happens the way it's supposed to.
Finally, Little Chicago. Future Harry fixed it. Any questions?
To begin with what I'll discuss is my internal canon, so it applies to me and no one else and I offer it in that fashion.
The problem with future Harry is the same as it ever was. What is Jim's solution to the bootstrap paradox? If Harry dies during first use then how does Harry go back and save himself?
Now this is my internal canon and some noodling to pass the time.“Oh, the Gatekeeper didn’t do it to annoy you,” Bob said. “He did it to prevent any chance of paradox.”
“He…” I blinked. “He what?”
“He got this from hindsight, he had to,” Bob said.
“Hindsight,” I murmured. “You mean he went to the future for this?”
“Well,” Bob hedged. “That would break one of the Laws, so probably not. But he might have sent himself a message from there, or maybe gotten it from some kind of prognosticating spirit. He might even have developed some ability for that himself. Some wizards do.”
“Meaning what?” I asked.
“Meaning that it’s possible nothing has happened, yet. But that he wanted to put you on your guard against something that’s coming in the immediate future.”
This is disingenuous on Jim's part. But there is no way for the reader to know that at this point. Although it is hinted at in Summer Knight. The Winter and Summer Queens are the Fates. They can see possible futures. Mab has already started the game. As has Uriel. Bob is used to give the readers two things. One is the knowledge that something is going on. He also tells the reader how to know who is pushing the buttons. The info that Rashid is trying to pass on is that the Black Council is out to get Harry killed by the White Council.
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To begin with what I'll discuss is my internal canon, so it applies to me and no one else and I offer it in that fashion.
The problem with future Harry is the same as it ever was. What is Jim's solution to the bootstrap paradox? If Harry dies during first use then how does Harry go back and save himself?
Now this is my internal canon and some noodling to pass the time.
let me cross that with my own head canon.. Harry used LC as the time travel device. So the build up was him coming through, and the guy who watches the timeline fixed it, GK. So it was never supposed to blow his head. But, the order of events does make Harry chose differently. In the original timeline he picks up Lasciel to use LC, between this, the car ramming him and the phone call, he doesn't pick it up here. And no free will TT laws were violated to achieve this. nobodies choice was taken away. They simply altered the deal, pray they do not alter it farther... Er, I mean, altered the order of events to cause him to choose differently.
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Whatever works for you.
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Whatever works for you.
🧐
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Early in the novel, Harry makes a big deal about how realistic Lash's illusions are, and then promptly gets hit by a mysterious car. This was an illusion because Future Harry made an ally of Lash, and they used the ensuing concussion to hide Future Harry as a ridealong in PG Harry's skull.
This would answer Morris's question about why Lash didn't freak out when Harry tried to fire up Little Chicago the first time. Future Harry informed Lash that Past Harry would be interrupted by Molly.
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This would answer Morris's question about why Lash didn't freak out when Harry tried to fire up Little Chicago the first time. Future Harry informed Lash that Past Harry would be interrupted by Molly.
... I don't think that can be so. No matter how good the illusion there would still be damage to the vehicle, or not, in which case it'd look like he just wrecked and police do accident reconstructions and what not. They'd think he was drunk.
That is also a good point though. Even if Bob missed the build up, how on earth did lash miss it?
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... I don't think that can be so. No matter how good the illusion there would still be damage to the vehicle, or not, in which case it'd look like he just wrecked and police do accident reconstructions and what not. They'd think he was drunk.
That is also a good point though. Even if Bob missed the build up, how on earth did lash miss it?
Don't waste any more of your time, it was probably a continuity error. I just thought it might be interesting to discuss. However I'm going to rent out Harry's head for parties. He seems to have plenty of room. :o
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She is without a doubt able to twist what he sees in real time.
Sure, but it is odd that Bob wouldn't have seen the flaw over months of work. Not conclusive that someone sabotaged it and Bob took it for a mistake once he noticed it, but it's not totally nuts.
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Don't waste any more of your time,
that is what we do here it was probably a continuity error.
there are no continuity errors in the DF 😆 I just thought it might be interesting to discuss.
also what we do However I'm going to rent out Harry's head for parties. He seems to have plenty of room. :o
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I do want to commend the OP for the question. Most people never ask the opposite.
The tendency is to ask "who fixed LC?" Nice catch to ask "Who broke it?"- or more generally, was it maliciously broken.
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No matter how good the illusion there would still be [1] damage to the vehicle, or not, in which case it'd look like he just wrecked and [2] police do accident reconstructions and what not.
1. It's the Beetle, so there's enough damage that nobody's going to raise questions about there not being an accident.
2. They actually don't do that much investigation and what not if it's a "minor" accident. Minor means no one had to go to the hospital.
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1. It's the Beetle, so there's enough damage that nobody's going to raise questions about there not being an accident.
2. They actually don't do that much investigation and what not if it's a "minor" accident. Minor means no one had to go to the hospital.
1 Harry fixes the beetle regularly, a car hits you it's gonna do damage, paint abrasions, the works. The damage itself is different than say, a chlorofiend slamming your hood. That's why Mike asks what happened, it's not damaged in a way he'd suspect.
2 and didn't Harry have to get it fixed? So he takes it to Mike, who asks, fix what?
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1 Harry fixes the beetle regularly.
Harry fixes it to a certain extent. It's constantly in a state of disrepair. Simply losing control and ending up on a curb could be enough to render it inoperable.
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Harry fixes it to a certain extent. It's constantly in a state of disrepair. Simply losing control and ending up on a curb could be enough to render it inoperable.
I'm talking about the body damage. Not it's actual ability to run. Mike does body damage pretty regularly for Harry.
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Nobody broke little Chicago, it was just a production fault. Mab fixed it because she had to preserve his life just as she said in dead beat. She was acting godmother at the time because she had Lea locked up.
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Nobody broke little Chicago, it was just a production fault. Mab fixed it because she had to preserve his life just as she said in dead beat. She was acting godmother at the time because she had Lea locked up.
Ooh. And we know friendly Faeries can cross thresholds uninvited...
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Mab is in Arctis Tor, locked down after the attack. That's assuming that LC was fixed in the interval when the crew is out of the house, including Mouse and Bob. Maybe Rashid as Mab's representative. If Harry just fouled it up then of course free will and all that and Uriel can't help. Same thing for Molly. Anybody from the future would split the timeline. So our Harry would now be Harry2. That per Vadderung in Cold Days speaking to paradoxical time travel.
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Mab had enough time for an occasional visit and leave a comic, without doubt one Sarissa gave her:
“Thanks,” I said. I dragged out the heavy
plastic storage box. It was filled with books, most of them leather-bound,
handwritten treatises on various supernatural topics. Except for one book that was a compilation of “Calvin and Hobbes” comic strips. How had that gotten in there?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24814.It_s_a_Magical_World
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I'm talking about the body damage.
The body is constantly in a state of disrepair. There's always something for Mike to fix. Lose control of a car with low clearance and run it off the road in a major urban center and see if you have any body damage that would need to be repaired.
So he takes it to Mike, who asks, fix what?
And this is what you said. My response to it says what Mike would assume Harry is asking to be fixed.
Further, Harry's not worried about body damage that isn't more than cosmetic.
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The body is constantly in a state of disrepair. There's always something for Mike to fix. Lose control of a car with low clearance and run it off the road in a major urban center and see if you have any body damage that would need to be repaired.
And this is what you said. My response to it says what Mike would assume Harry is asking to be fixed.
Further, Harry's not worried about body damage that isn't more than cosmetic.
this expects everyone, including people who regularly work in identifying and fixing damage to be too stupid to notice he ran himself off the road, lack of paint scrapes, major dents from being rammed multiple times, ect. That's implausible, and reaching at best.
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Grayson came ambling over to us. “Wrecker’s on the way,” he said. “What do we got here?”
“Hit and run,” Murphy said.
Grayson lifted his eyebrows and eyed me. “Yeah? Looked to me like you got hit a couple of times. On purpose-like.”
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this expects everyone, including people who regularly work in identifying and fixing damage to be too stupid to notice he ran himself off the road, lack of paint scrapes, major dents from being rammed multiple times, ect. That's implausible, and reaching at best.
Then make that case. Not a specific claim that Mike wouldn't know why Harry bothered to bring the car in.
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Then make that case. Not a specific claim that Mike wouldn't know why Harry bothered to bring the car in.
Already did.
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Maybe the Calvin and Hobs was a message of some kind...... Left by Harry for Harry, and it will only make sense at a future date.
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Since the quote comes from Small Favor it's hard to see it's relevance to Proven Guilty. It did occur to me that Jim was trolling his readers and introducing the idea that there was a door into Winter in the Lab and preparing them for a trip down the primrose path.
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Since the quote comes from Small Favor it's hard to see it's relevance to Proven Guilty. It did occur to me that Jim was trolling his readers and introducing the idea that there was a door into Winter in the Lab and preparing them for a trip down the primrose path.
And that I think answers the question.
Harry "broke" Little Chicago when he was making it. Leah( or Mab if Leah was incapacitated) saw the flaw and fixed it in her godmother mode without telling Harry.
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Since the quote comes from Small Favor it's hard to see it's relevance to Proven Guilty. It did occur to me that Jim was trolling his readers and introducing the idea that there was a door into Winter in the Lab and preparing them for a trip down the primrose path.
It is all in the time that Mab was handling Lea’s tasks. Part of that apparently was visiting Harry’s apartment to see if everything was all right.
She could use Lea’s backdoor if needed but we have seen that she could enter Michael’s house easily and she brought gifts. She just had to behave as a proper guest. As a guest and godmother bound by Margaret’s deal fixing Little Chicago when she saw the flaw was something she could do and maybe even had to do.
That period started somewhere before dead beat and ended somewhere before changes. The time that little Chicago was fixed.
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And that I think answers the question.
Harry "broke" Little Chicago when he was making it. Leah( or Mab if Leah was incapacitated) saw the flaw and fixed it in her godmother mode without telling Harry.
I'm examining an alternate history version where Lash sabotaged LC.
Mab is pinned like a bug at Arctis Tor. She had access to the lab but not the time to do it.
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I wonder if someone just hit the nail on the head and we don't know it yet.
I just came to the realization that it could have been Rashid that fixed LC. He was the one who let Harry know about the black magic in Chicago. He has what looks to be a sight into the future, as per the conversation in TC. Maybe the big idea for the note was to get Harry out of the lab for him to fix it.
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I'm examining an alternate history version where Lash sabotaged LC.
Mab is pinned like a bug at Arctis Tor. She had access to the lab but not the time to do it.
Why do you think she was pinned at arctis tor? I have seen no evidence for that. Sure she was attacked there but it is not really clear when exactly, how long it took and if it really would have pinned her down. I tend to believe not.
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Why do you think she was pinned at arctis tor? I have seen no evidence for that. Sure she was attacked there but it is not really clear when exactly, how long it took and if it really would have pinned her down. I tend to believe not.
Harry is asked to do two things at the outset. Find out who is using Black Magic and why Mab didn't declare war on the Reds. You know the span where the attack was possible. Between Mab's appearance in Dead Beat and the point where Harry goes to Arctis Tor.
Mab knows she has been attacked by Nemesis. And she knows that Aurora was Nemfected. Who let the attackers in close? The reason why she has her forces aligned against Summer is that she doesn't know who is behind the attack. Is another of the Queens Nemfected? That question is answered at the end of the book when Harry throws Summer Fire in the Winters Wellspring. Summer attacks the Reds. This is why she winked at Harry. He did something she didn't expect and tested the idea in a way she couldn't. There is some support for this in a WOJ.
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Which does not prevent a small visit. She could even manipulate Time so it won’t take too long.
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Yep if you can manipulate time then practically anybody could had done it.
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Yep if you can manipulate time then practically anybody could had done it.
I am not talking about real time travling. Just the abilities already used by Kringle and Maeve.
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Already did.
It more felt like moving the goal posts from Mike wouldn't have anything to fix to "everyone" would notice that someone didn't hit him.
I don't think you made the case at all. You stated the premise for the case.
Since the quote comes from Small Favor it's hard to see it's relevance to Proven Guilty. It did occur to me that Jim was trolling his readers and introducing the idea that there was a door into Winter in the Lab and preparing them for a trip down the primrose path.
I've never really understood how the Calvin and Hobbes thing is supposed to be a reference to the Winter Court.
Is another of the [Summer] Queens Nemfected? That question is answered at the end of the book when Harry throws Summer Fire in the Winters Wellspring. Summer attacks the Reds. This is why she winked at Harry.
I've never seen anyone make this claim. It's interesting.
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I've never really understood how the Calvin and Hobbes thing is supposed to be a reference to the Winter Court.
Look at this link. (https://calvinandhobbes.fandom.com /wiki/Calvin%27s_snowmen) The word on Reddit was the snowmen were minions of Winter.I've never seen anyone make this claim. It's interesting.
Lilly tells you in Proven Guilty that Slate's Power isn't being exercised. The reveal at Arctis Tor is not only that Slate is out of play but that Lea is too. Lea's purpose is to be where Mab cannot. You see this in Peace Talks.Mab stared at Marcone for a moment in silence, before she said, “I am informed by my second that as of one hour past, all of the forces of Winter are urgently required elsewhere. The Gates are under intense attack.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 291). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
You should have learned from Summer Knight about the balance of forces. This is reinforced by Mother Summer in Cold Days. Lea could have Nemfected someone in either Summer or Winter, and Mab knows this. Something else that should ring bells about the attack is that Thorned Namshiel gets in close to Arctis Tor, something that Mab should have had blocked. Remember, per Cold Days, that Mab can lock down Winter. Unless you can sell the idea that Thorned Namshiel could have held the portal open or found his way back to it without help, then someone was helping him. Maeve or Titania. Since Summer didn't attack when the forces of Winter went to defend the Well, it was clear where the threat came from. Or at least for my personal canon, it's clear to me.
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Lilly tells you in Proven Guilty that Slate's Power isn't being exercised. The reveal at Arctis Tor is not only that Slate is out of play but that Lea is too. Lea's purpose is to be where Mab cannot. You see this in Peace Talks. You should have learned from Summer Knight about the balance of forces.
I got all of that and have seen plenty of people make claims about balance being the reason Winter didn't act (including Harry). The thing I've never seen anyone say was that Mab winked at Harry because his actions let him know that Summer was clean.
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Look at this link. (https://calvinandhobbes.fandom.com /wiki/Calvin%27s_snowmen) The word on Reddit was the snowmen were minions of Winter.Lilly tells you in Proven Guilty that Slate's Power isn't being exercised. The reveal at Arctis Tor is not only that Slate is out of play but that Lea is too. Lea's purpose is to be where Mab cannot. You see this in Peace Talks.You should have learned from Summer Knight about the balance of forces. This is reinforced by Mother Summer in Cold Days. Lea could have Nemfected someone in either Summer or Winter, and Mab knows this. Something else that should ring bells about the attack is that Thorned Namshiel gets in close to Arctis Tor, something that Mab should have had blocked. Remember, per Cold Days, that Mab can lock down Winter. Unless you can sell the idea that Thorned Namshiel could have held the portal open or found his way back to it without help, then someone was helping him. Maeve or Titania. Since Summer didn't attack when the forces of Winter went to defend the Well, it was clear where the threat came from. Or at least for my personal canon, it's clear to me.
We do not know how long Mab can maintain that block. If it is only a night then using that block against an enemy wo can choose when to attack is just a waste of power.
Or more simple Mab let them get that far by feigning weakness to get them into the open. To learn who they are and to confirm what Lea already told her. And maybe nemesis got desperate to get Lea back before she could tell more.
And we know Maeve was infected so she probably was with the attack.
I got all of that and have seen plenty of people make claims about balance being the reason Winter didn't act (including Harry). The thing I've never seen anyone say was that Mab winked at Harry because his actions let him know that Summer was clean.
Or just to encourage him. :)
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I got all of that and have seen plenty of people make claims about balance being the reason Winter didn't act (including Harry). The thing I've never seen anyone say was that Mab winked at Harry because his actions let him know that Summer was clean.
I'm open to any other explanation. Here is a WOJ that may apply. (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/)Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn’t infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)Make that make sense.
We do not know how long Mab can maintain that block. If it is only a night then using that block against an enemy wo can choose when to attack is just a waste of power.
If it were that simple to get to Arctis Tor Cowl would be setting in Mab's Throne Room.
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I'm open to any other explanation. Here is a WOJ that may apply. (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/)If it were that simple to get to Arctis Tor Cowl would be setting in Mab's Throne Room.
She has other ways to defend herself. Blocking off fairy completely like she did in cold days is a big thing. She might just not choose to do so because she had better uses for that power.
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Lily stared intently at me for a second, then said, “My power will react violently to that of Mab. I can open the way to the Arctis Tor, but holding the way open for your return will occupy the whole of my strength.
If it were easy I could do it. Anyway this is my personal canon. So I think it's special, even though it probably isn't.
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It more felt like moving the goal posts from Mike wouldn't have anything to fix to "everyone" would notice that someone didn't hit him.
when someone sits there and attacks your logical argument trying to squirm their way into the tiniest flaws it's not moving the goal posts to rebuff their bits, it's a conversation apparently, not the conversation I enjoy having, but one seen here often enough I feel the need to prepare for it with almost any simple statement I make.. with other correlations. I.e. counter argue. However, Morris was kind enough to slam dunk it for me,
Grayson lifted his eyebrows and eyed me. “Yeah? Looked to me like you got hit a couple of times. On purpose-like.”
after which farther rallying of points felt entirely unnecessary.
*Rebuttal, that's the word I was looking for, not moving goal posts, making rebuttals.
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I'm open to any other explanation.
Nah. I think that's the best explanation I've seen (or at least gets to the core of it). Just hadn't seen it before.
when someone sits there and attacks your logical argument trying to squirm their way into the tiniest flaws it's not moving the goal posts to rebuff their bits, it's a conversation apparently, not the conversation I enjoy having, but one seen here often enough I feel the need to prepare for it with almost any simple statement I make.. with other correlations. I.e. counter argue. However, Morris was kind enough to slam dunk it for me, after which farther rallying of points felt entirely unnecessary.
*Rebuttal, that's the word I was looking for, not moving goal posts, making rebuttals.
But you didn't "make" the argument that "everyone" would notice until several exchanges in. You still haven't, even if we include Morris's contribution. "Everyone" consists of what Grayson said on the page and what you think Mike would have said. When the premise of the theory is that the wreck was an illusion caused by beings, Harry and Lash, able to control what Harry hears and sees, one line from one character without more isn't a "slam dunk" argument that it didn't happen. Especially given what we know about how these things can work from SmF. If the hit and run came up enough from other characters who witnessed the damage to the Beetle, I'd be willing to say it wasn't illusion. (Which it might have. I don't recall if/how it was dealt with throughout the rest of the book). I think it came up 4 or 5 times in SmF before Harry had to confront it. When he did, it basically crippled him.
Honestly, I don't think the whole illusion part is really necessary to explain why Lash didn't object the first time he tried to use but did the second time. Just the Lash was in league with a time travel Harry part of the theory is enough. A future Harry should know enough about Lash to be able to communicate with her without tipping his hand to PG Harry. (And if your initial argument had been that enough people would have noticed that it wasn't a hit and run and did in fact interact with Harry on that basis to the point that the weight and cognitive dissonance of any illusions would come crashing down, this paragraph would have been my response. Instead, you focused on Mike and the good working order of the Beetle being what would bring it all down, and I replied to that. That Mike would have something to repair on the Beetle isn't a tiny flaw in the logic that Mike wouldn't have anything to repair on the Beetle. It's the entirety of the logic).
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What are you talking about confront it??
Yea, that's how rebuttals work, someone adds on to a previous statement in reply..
Pretty sure that one character isn't under any illusion himself there, and Murphy was there, and idk if he had a partner offhand but, nobody batted an eye to his statement either so. Believe what thy will bub.
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What are you talking about confront it??
Harry had to confront that Mab had removed all memories of fire magic from his mind to prevent him from being tracked by the Summer Court.
Yea, that's how rebuttals work, someone adds on to a previous statement in reply..
No, that's not a rebuttal. It is a reply. The reply could be a clarification of an original ambiguous statement or a correction of the initially incomplete or incorrect original statement. But what you did wasn't to add to a previous statement. It was to suggest a completely different argument.
You shifted the goalposts. "Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."
You said police do reconstructions and the Beetle wouldn't have enough damage to justify a hit and run. I rebutted both points.
Then you said Mike would have nothing to fix. I rebutted that point.
Then you said "everyone" would notice. You left unspoken the part that everyone involved, except Mike who I demonstrated would have no reason to, would confront Harry about why he was talking nonsense. There are only two people who would be in a position to do so. Officer Grayson and Murphy. Grayson did not confront Harry, but did, according to Harry, confirm that it was a hit and run. I don't recall exactly what Murphy did in that scene and throughout the remainder of the book. Making your argument would require going through the book, or a better memory of it than I have, and pointing to all the times Lash would have to make Harry see/hear/say/feel something that's not what's on the page. It's probably a pretty solid argument (I hold pretty consistently there are almost no conclusive arguments in regards to the DF) if the hit and run stuff comes up when Murphy's around later in the book. But the argument has not yet been made. Just the premise stated.
Here's a list of illusions that have been demonstrated as necessary for the theory that TT Harry time traveled into Harry's head to prevent LC from killing Harry.
1. The initial illusion that Harry was hit by a car.
2. Grayson's statement.
3-x. ?
A rebuttal to Mike not having something to fix would be Mike having something to fix.
Pretty sure that one character isn't under any illusion himself there.
The claim would be that Harry is under an illusion as to a single statement. Not that the entity in Harry's head is causing an illusion in Grayson's head.
Believe what thy will bub.
I believe that outside of the surface story, none us know what was going on in PG with any reasonable degree of certainty.
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Harry had to confront that Mab had removed all memories of fire magic from his mind to prevent him from being tracked by the Summer Court.
No, that's not a rebuttal. It is a reply. The reply could be a clarification of an original
I see know difference, this is a nit picking, funny how I complain about something and then it mysteriously comes out of the woodwork.. ambiguous statement or a correction of the initially incomplete or incorrect original statement. But what you did wasn't to add to a previous statement. It was to suggest a completely different argument.
what? That it would be noticed was the original argument, the who is the expounding upon the original premise of who might else notice it is a rebuttal.
You shifted the goalposts. "Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."
and I didn't demand any greater evidence, I provided more, that wasn't a claim they made, it was dismissing my evidence, they did that, not me... 🧐 Why am I being accosted?
You said police do reconstructions and the Beetle wouldn't have enough damage to justify a hit and run. I rebutted both points.
and I replied with answers. Now we're getting it.
Then you said Mike would have nothing to fix. I rebutted that point.
no, I said Mike would know the difference. And indeed, he would, greyson did and he's not even a car damage expert.
[/quote]Then you said "everyone" would notice. You left unspoken the part that everyone involved, except Mike who I demonstrated would have no reason to, would confront Harry about why he was talking nonsense.[/quote] no, you Said he wouldn't recognize the difference, that's wrong. There are only two people who would be in a position to do so. Officer Grayson and Murphy. Grayson did not confront Harry, but did, according to Harry, confirm that it was a hit and run.
I see absolutely know difference. A confrontation implies there's something there to challenge, just like here, there's not. I don't recall exactly what Murphy did in that scene and throughout the remainder of the book. Making your argument would require going through the book, or a better memory of it than I have, and pointing to all the times Lash would have to make Harry see/hear/say/feel something that's not what's on the page.
why in earth would anyone need to do that? It's one scene.. It's probably a pretty solid argument (I hold pretty consistently there are almost no conclusive arguments in regards to the DF) if the hit and run stuff comes up when Murphy's around later in the book. But the argument has not yet been made. Just the premise stated.
what?
Here's a list of illusions that have been demonstrated as necessary for the theory that TT Harry time traveled into Harry's head to prevent LC from killing Harry.
1. The initial illusion that Harry was hit by a car.
2. Grayson's statement.
3-x. ?
A rebuttal to Mike not having something to fix would be Mike having something to fix.
The claim would be that Harry is under an illusion as to a single statement. Not that the entity in Harry's head is causing an illusion in Grayson's head.
I believe that outside of the surface story, none us know what was going on in PG with any reasonable degree of certainty.
none of that made any sense to me what so ever in the context of it wasn't an illusion...?
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Then you said Mike would have nothing to fix.
no, I said Mike would know the difference.
So he takes it to Mike, who asks, fix what?
How is this not saying Mike has nothing to fix?
none of that made any sense to me what so ever in the context of it wasn't an illusion...?
Because all your arguments are based on the premise that you're correct so you don't need to address the merits of Foxed's theory.
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How is this not saying Mike has nothing to fix?
because I said The damage itself is different than say, a chlorofiend slamming your hood. That's why Mike asks what happened, it's not damaged in a way he'd suspect.
this first and quite clearly.Because all your arguments are based on the premise that you're correct so you don't need to address the merits of Foxed's theory.
I already did this, just like above what's being said is obviously being ignored in favor of what you think you wanted to hear in order to keep your illusion of an illusion. Far easier if I'm the one being argumentative for the sake of... What? This isn't a big thing, and I've already stacked the evidence against it. That doesn't unmake your theory... But on the other hand I don't see any legs to stand on for it being an illusion and for it to continue to work as an idea you have to ignore obvious evidence.. don't get mad cause I pointed it out.
So uh, where's your evidence then? It's an illusion too?