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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on January 27, 2021, 02:04:18 AM
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I suspect that Harry marrying Lara is for a couple different reasons. The first is Mab's Knight will now be protected by being married into a White Court family. The second is I believe Lord Raith is nearing his end. By marrying Lara, it would bolster her support. Other members of the White Court might think twice before going after her since she's with the slayer of the Red Court, and Mab's knight.
So the question is, would Harry being her husband actually hold a position of power within the White Court if she becomes leader? Would he basically be considered nobility within a vampire court?
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If so, he probably wouldn't be considered the White King. But I think the position doesn't extend a position or title to anyone else. We've never heard of any of Lord Raith's children referred to as princes or princesses. It offers protection and makes them a target because the White Court ruler has to be able to protect his/her family.
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I doubt the title of King or Queen carries the same symbolic significance within the White Court that it has in the mortal world. It might not be anymore significant than calling Al Capone the King of the Chicago underworld during the late 1920's. Yes, he was the most powerful criminal boss at that time, but he wasn't a king in the true sense of the world. Also, has anyone aside from Harry ever referred to Lord Raith as the King of the White Court? I'm not sure. Even the title of Lord, in Lord Raith, might just be an acknowledgement that he is the accepted leader of the White Court.
Then we get to the nature of the White Court itself. Initially, the rest of the White Court are going to see Harry as nothing more than Lara's playing and her food. Should the marriage occur Harry might have to pretend to be nothing more than that so Lara doesn't look weak and invite challenges to her rule. (That could be fun. Sort of Like Zorro pretending to be an over privileged, lazy and cowardly weakling. However, Ebenezer and other members of the Council might believe it was true.)
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Even the title of Lord, in Lord Raith, might just be an acknowledgement that is the accepted leader of the White Court.
I think it's because he was the head of House Raith. We've got Lady Cesarina and Lord Whatshisname from House Skavis.
Then we get to the nature of the White Court itself. Initially, the rest of the White Court are going to see Harry as nothing more than Lara's playing and her food. Should the marriage occur Harry might have to pretend to be nothing more than that so Lara doesn't look weak and invite challenges to her rule. (That could be fun. Sort of Like Zorro pretending to be an over privileged, lazy and cowardly weakling. However, Ebenezer and other members of the Council might believe it was true.)
I'm not so sure about this because, as we learn from Job Placement, Wamps don't get married. I think that means we're going to get different reactions than we would if they were together but not married.
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If so, he probably wouldn't be considered the White King. But I think the position doesn't extend a position or title to anyone else. We've never heard of any of Lord Raith's children referred to as princes or princesses. It offers protection and makes them a target because the White Court ruler has to be able to protect his/her family.
Well I chose king because the Red Court had the Red King. I guess Harry could be called Lord Dresden in replacement of Lord Raith
Lord: Lord is an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others, acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler.
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I doubt the title of King or Queen carries the same symbolic significance within the White Court that it has in the mortal world. It might not be anymore significant than calling Al Capone the King of the Chicago underworld during the late 1920's. Yes, he was the most powerful criminal boss at that time, but he wasn't a king in the true sense of the world. Also, has anyone aside from Harry ever referred to Lord Raith as the King of the White Court? I'm not sure. Even the title of Lord, in Lord Raith, might just be an acknowledgement that is the accepted leader of the White Court.
Then we get to the nature of the White Court itself. Initially, the rest of the White Court are going to see Harry as nothing more than Lara's playing and her food. Should the marriage occur Harry might have to pretend to be nothing more than that so Lara doesn't look weak and invite challenges to her rule. (That could be fun. Sort of Like Zorro pretending to be an over privileged, lazy and cowardly weakling. However, Ebenezer and other members of the Council might believe it was true.)
Harry does not have to pretend to be weak. The whole thing is about an alliance between winter and the white court so Harry represents the power of the winter court. Harry should bring something powerful in it.
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So the question is, would Harry being her husband actually hold a position of power within the White Court if she becomes leader? Would he basically be considered nobility within a vampire court?
I would tend to think not, because a human married to a Raith is typically just a favoured food that would normally still only live a few years even if the whampire is trying to be careful not to take too much at a time.
I'm actually really puzzled by Mab's intentions in this. She overtly says she wants them to make a baby to cement the alliance, but with the low fertility of whampires, that stands a good chance of wasting her starborn knight before even producing a child. Unless wizards are somewhere in between total vanilla's and Bigfoot scions in their ability to tolerate chronic feeding...
As for the effect on Lara's standing to succeed Lord Raith openly, that's another interesting question. Her people prize being indirect in conflicts, using several layers of cutouts if possible. Is marrying a high-profile brawler who most of the community considers a dumb brute going to hurt her internal standing even if the alliance to Winter is good for her nation as a whole? She's essentially saying 'fuck subtle' to anyone who's thinking of disputing the succession.
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I don't think so, he isn't a vamp..
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Making a baby? Who? where? Far as I know boning is seeing the deal. Not having a baby. Consummation through honeymoon lol
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I do not think Mab will take it kindly if Lara starts feeding on Harry. There will probably a clause in the marriage contract against it. Mab spoke against it when she loaned Harry to Lara.
This is a political marriage to strengthen an alliance. Both partners should look strong and competent and be a support to each other but if Lara makes Harry weaker Mab would loose and she would see it as a white court betrayal.
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Lord: Lord is an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others, acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler.
And I don't think Harry would have any authority vested in his person. The only authority he would have would be that which Lara delegated to him. Like he did as Emissary for Mab in SK and SmF.
a human married to a Raith is typically just a favoured food that would normally still only live a few years even if the whampire is trying to be careful not to take too much at a time.
Probably not, as marriage isn't a typical thing. It's only "some kind of political thing." We don't have any examples of how that works for the White Court.
“Connie. I want to share my life with you.”
“My people don’t do marriage,” she breathed. “Not unless it’s some kind of political thing. I might, I don’t know, burst into flame or something.”
https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/side-jobs/microfiction-job-placement
As for the effect on Lara's standing to succeed Lord Raith openly, that's another interesting question. Her people prize being indirect in conflicts, using several layers of cutouts if possible. Is marrying a high-profile brawler who most of the community considers a dumb brute going to hurt her internal standing even if the alliance to Winter is good for her nation as a whole? She's essentially saying 'fuck subtle' to anyone who's thinking of disputing the succession.
I don't know. We have seen Harry do a lot high level manipulating. Most recently he forced Marcone into giving him the castle in front of the supernatural community. Depending on how much of his scheming is known in the broader supernatural community, he could be considered a lot more than a mere brute. If no one beats me to it, I'll make a thread on his manipulations.
Making a baby? Who? where? Far as I know boning is seeing the deal. Not having a baby. Consummation through honeymoon lol
Making a baby: Yes. Who: Mab said she wanted Lara and Harry to do it. Where: In Castle Dresden. When: Right after Mab tells Lara that she (Mab) accepts her (Lara's) request to court her (Mab) knight (Harry).
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Probably not, as marriage isn't a typical thing. It's only "some kind of political thing." We don't have any examples of how that works for the White Court.
I was thinking of when Lara first showed up in BR and Harry didn't initially recognize her being White Court because she used her married name for her porn star persona. Implication being the husband hadn't lasted long, but she kept the name as an alias.
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Harry is food. He gets ate, he doesn't get promoted.
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Harry is food. He gets ate, he doesn't get promoted.
Unlikely. Mab does not give her knight in marriage to get eaten and Molly would be furious. The alliance would not survive it.
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Unlikely. Mab does not give her knight in marriage to get eaten and Molly would be furious. The alliance would not survive it.
Exactly. Although I agree that Harry won't be leader of the White Court, as the husband of Lara who may very well be the next official leader, it would mean an attack, even an insult towards him would be an attack on her position.
So Harry may not rule, but I still think being husband to the new leader would grant him a certain power.
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I was thinking of when Lara first showed up in BR and Harry didn't initially recognize her being White Court because she used her married name for her porn star persona. Implication being the husband hadn't lasted long, but she kept the name as an alias.
My guess on that was Lord Raith arranged a marriage back in the day. The marriage didn't last past the wedding night.
So Harry may not rule, but I still think being husband to the new leader would grant him a certain power.
He's going to at least have the soft power that being close a leader always gives someone.
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My guess on that was Lord Raith arranged a marriage back in the day. The marriage didn't last past the wedding night.
I wonder if she'd been a virgin, and that was her first kill? Also I remember in an earlier book her father brought up a doctor she was with (I think), and she seemed upset by it. I'm wondering if there is more to her. Could some of ther coldness be a mask she needs to wear because if she shows weakness it could get her killed? Maybe she does have a good side.
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I wonder if she'd been a virgin, and that was her first kill?
That's what I'm thinking.
Also I remember in an earlier book her father brought up a doctor she was with (I think), and she seemed upset by it.
BR when Inari was injured. I read that as Lord Raith didn't value mortals much at all beyond food. Lara did. I think this is born out in WN when Harry shows up to Raith Manor and somebody has been listening to mortal advice. The somebody is pretty obviously Lara.
Could some of ther coldness be a mask she needs to wear because if she shows weakness it could get her killed? Maybe she does have a good side.
I kind of do think she's a lot more "good" or "human" than Lord Raith or maybe even the typical White Court vampire, but still much less so than Thomas was before Shagnasty got a hold of him. But I didn't get that from that scene.
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Unlikely. Mab does not give her knight in marriage to get eaten and Molly would be furious. The alliance would not survive it.
It doesn't matter if Harry actually gets eaten. But that is still his status. Any power he achieves comes from Lara. Kill her and the alliance is moot in any case.
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It doesn't matter if Harry actually gets eaten. But that is still his status. Any power he achieves comes from Lara. Kill her and the alliance is moot in any case.
The point is Harry is not in that marriage just for himself, he represents Winter. That is his status.
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It doesn't matter if Harry actually gets eaten. But that is still his status. Any power he achieves comes from Lara. Kill her and the alliance is moot in any case.
That could be said for anyone in power. When someone takes power by force they often eliminate the other leaders supporters, and allies.
Harry's power may be by proxy, but it would still be there. To challenge Harry is to challenge Lara. To challenge Lara is to challenge Harry.
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I just read that section again and it seems to imply Lara requested a binding alliance with Winter and that she be allowed to court Harry and possibly Mab jumped to marriage quite possibly to stick it to Molly at the same time she cemented a deal with the White Court.
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That's what I'm thinking.
BR when Inari was injured. I read that as Lord Raith didn't value mortals much at all beyond food. Lara did. I think this is born out in WN when Harry shows up to Raith Manor and somebody has been listening to mortal advice. The somebody is pretty obviously Lara.
I kind of do think she's a lot more "good" or "human" than Lord Raith or maybe even the typical White Court vampire, but still much less so than Thomas was before Shagnasty got a hold of him. But I didn't get that from that scene.
I'd guess that it's the wedding ring that gave her a scar, too. Truly loved her husband. And that's why Thomas trusts her.
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I'd guess that it's the wedding ring that gave her a scar, too. Truly loved her husband. And that's why Thomas trusts her.
But if she truly loved the husband, he wasn't her first.
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What are you basing that on, Mira?
We're talking a 16th century wedding.
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But if she truly loved the husband, he wasn't her first.
If the potential White Court vamp is in love with the first person they sleep with, it can kill the inner vamp and leave them human. It's what both Thomas and Harry hoped would happen with Inara, back in Blood Rites.
So Lara couldn't have been in love with the first person she slept with; if that were true, she wouldn't be White Court. She might have fallen in love with someone else afterwards, but by then it would be too late to be anything other than a vampire.
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If the potential White Court vamp is in love with the first person they sleep with, it can kill the inner vamp and leave them human. It's what both Thomas and Harry hoped would happen with Inara, back in Blood Rites.
So Lara couldn't have been in love with the first person she slept with; if that were true, she wouldn't be White Court. She might have fallen in love with someone else afterwards, but by then it would be too late to be anything other than a vampire.
Right. I intended it as "he loved her"- she found out on her wedding night after she'd killed him he died willingly. My bad. Don't type while talking.
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If the potential White Court vamp is in love with the first person they sleep with, it can kill the inner vamp and leave them human. It's what both Thomas and Harry hoped would happen with Inara, back in Blood Rites.
So Lara couldn't have been in love with the first person she slept with; if that were true, she wouldn't be White Court. She might have fallen in love with someone else afterwards, but by then it would be too late to be anything other than a vampire.
Not if the man she loved cheated on her. I believe it requires mutual love, not just from one.
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If the potential White Court vamp is in love with the first person they sleep with, it can kill the inner vamp and leave them human. It's what both Thomas and Harry hoped would happen with Inara, back in Blood Rites.
So Lara couldn't have been in love with the first person she slept with; if that were true, she wouldn't be White Court. She might have fallen in love with someone else afterwards, but by then it would be too late to be anything other than a vampire.
Which was kinda my point. I also feel like we should distinguish between love and "true love." Jim's specifically said that the relationship has to be that of equals for it to be true love. There's probably plenty of couples that aren't "equal," especially historically.
Not if the man she loved cheated on her. I believe it requires mutual love, not just from one.
That's another thing. True love has to be mutual.