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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kevinm on October 27, 2020, 03:04:41 AM
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I wanted to give some thoughts on the revelation about Mac. I know another thread got into this but angels both of the holy and the fallen variety are kind of my thing (www.youtube.com/c/paranormalencyclopedia) so I might have some additional insights.
First yeah Mac's an angel, particularly one of a type known as the Grigori or the watchers. In angelology (mostly Jewish) they were given the job of teaching mankind civilization and/or magic (kind of depends on the source) but lusted after human women creating half breed children known as nephillim or anakim (Goliath incidentally was from these blood lines). Generally they are seen as fallen angels/demons but i don't think that's the case with Mac... at least not exactly.
So in some European folklore there's actually three groups of angels. The Holy Angels (Michael and the other angels that remain loyal to God), the fallen angels (Satan and his ilk) and what you might call the tripped. These were angels who refused to take sides when Lucifer rebelled against God. They weren't cast into Hell but they were no longer allowed to remain in Heaven forcing them out onto the Earth (incidentally Dante mentiones them briefly in The Divine Comedy placing them in the outer part of Limbo, Hell's first level although before Charon and the river Styx). Some European legends actually associate these angels with the origin of the faeries but I don't think that's where Jim's going. I think Mac is just an angel barred from Heaven but not cast into Hell from the ranks of the Grigori.
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I think the ranks of the angels that refused to take sides fits Mac, and what few comments about him that are in the series. The fact that the bar is neutral territory, this also fits with that. However knowing Harry is changing him, little by little he is being forced to take a side. It began with tossing the keys of his Trans Am to Harry so he could get to Victor's lake house in Storm Front, to making a real statement and commitment in Battle Ground, a blood oath of a type, putting a smear of his blood on the Placard, thus swearing that anyone that comes through the door of his bar to hurt those inside it has to go through him first.
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Forcing Mac to take a side may have significant fallout - not as big as if Michael had misused his borrowed Grace, in terms of scale, but similar, in my opinion
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Forcing Mac to take a side may have significant fallout - not as big as if Michael had misused his borrowed Grace, in terms of scale, but similar, in my opinion
Mac isn't being forced, apparently as he is now, he does have free will, so far he hasn't "used" whatever power he has, he might not be able to. He did heal very quickly back in Cold Days from a gun shot wound to the stomach if I remember correctly. It isn't quite like Michael though, he was loaned for a time Uriel's Grace, Grace that Uriel isn't free to use, but because he does have free will, Michael could have chosen to use and abuse.
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These were angels who refused to take sides when Lucifer rebelled against God.
I believe there's a WoJ where he says Lasciel refused to take sides. If so, Mac's status as a "tripped" angel would need to be because of something other refusing to take sides. Or Jim will have to change that. WoJ is just something he's said. I don't consider it canon until it's in a book.
Mac might be able to do whatever he wants so long as he doesn't use his angelic power. It would be a very good reason for him to keep himself "out." If he gets emotionally involved with anyone, he might not be able to resist the temptation to use whatever power he has.
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Still no love for the transubstantiated Raphael theory, huh?
Le sigh...
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If it helps, I'm not in the Grigori definitively confirmed camp.
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Mac might be able to do whatever he wants so long as he doesn't use his angelic power. It would be a very good reason for him to keep himself "out." If he gets emotionally involved with anyone, he might not be able to resist the temptation to use whatever power he has.
I think he crossed that line when he smeared his blood on the Placard.
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I think he crossed that line when he smeared his blood on the Placard.
There was a WoJ that Mac hasn't ever done anything that a human couldn't do. I'd argue that him smearing his blood on the placard might still qualify. Especially if he did or does have power but can't use it, so the blood on the placard was really only an extension of the protection he offers his patrons under guest law. He wasn't taking a side, so much as defending his guests.
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There was a WoJ that Mac hasn't ever done anything that a human couldn't do. I'd argue that him smearing his blood on the placard might still qualify. Especially if he did or does have power but can't use it, so the blood on the placard was really only an extension of the protection he offers his patrons under guest law. He wasn't taking a side, so much as defending his guests.
I disagree, if he was merely protecting his guests under guest law, then he didn't need to take the added step of smearing his blood on the Placard. Guest law is a given, as Harry says at the end of Battle Ground when he was arguing before the members of the Accords, it is a law so old and sacred it doesn't need to be written down. If he wasn't taking a side in smearing his blood on the Placard, then it shouldn't have been a hard decision for him. But it was. Harry had to push him, it was only when he was about to use his wizard's sight and Mac stopped him, did Mac come to the decision to commit himself with his blood.
He lowered his hand slowly, his expression resolved. Then he took a step back, pursed his lips, looked at me, and shook his head.
Decision made, he moved briskly to put his blood on the Placard and hang it up.
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I disagree, if he was merely protecting his guests under guest law, then he didn't need to take the added step of smearing his blood on the Placard. Guest law is a given, as Harry says at the end of Battle Ground when he was arguing before the members of the Accords, it is a law so old and sacred it doesn't need to be written down. If he wasn't taking a side in smearing his blood on the Placard, then it shouldn't have been a hard decision for him. But it was. Harry had to push him, it was only when he was about to use his wizard's sight and Mac stopped him, did Mac come to the decision to commit himself with his blood.
Decision made, he moved briskly to put his blood on the Placard and hang it up.
Yes, because the placard was basically ensuring that he'd be the first to die if someone attacked his place. That's not something you just casually commit to. Especially if you're powerless.
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Yes, because the placard was basically ensuring that he'd be the first to die if someone attacked his place. That's not something you just casually commit to. Especially if you're powerless.
No, it isn't, but that isn't something he wouldn't have done anyway, he didn't need to be asked or to add his blood to seal the deal. As Harry pointed out, Mac knew what the Placard was, what putting his blood on it meant..
Mac rocked back half a pace. He looked from the sign to me. He didn't quite lick his lips in nervous guilt, but it was pretty clear that he didn't like that I'd realize what he knew.
Mac knew what was going to be asked of him, not the same at all as looking after the people in the bar. Mac would have done that anyway,as best he could. The Placard is about more than just that. Mac himmmed and hawaad, looking at the sign, then away..
Choosing to put his blood on the Placard, if it didn't cross the line for Mac, it blurred it to the point where it might no longer be there.. Because;
"What is it?" Murphy asked as he worked.
"The placard from the Cross," I said, "Here is the King of the Jews."
Her golden eyebrows went up. "From the vault?"
"Yeah," I said.
"What does it do?"
"It's embodied intercession. . . It focuses energy on an individual."
I looked up the meaning of "intercession." According to Wikipedia;
Intercession or intercessory prayer is the act of praying to a deity or to a saint in heaven on behalf of oneself or others.
That my friends is taking sides, it is a pledge from Mac, that he'd be willing to ask for divine help to save those in his bar. The guys he refused to back many millennia ago in another battle between good and evil.
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No, it isn't, but that isn't something he wouldn't have done anyway, he didn't need to be asked or to add his blood to seal the deal. As Harry pointed out, Mac knew what the Placard was, what putting his blood on it meant..
Mac knew what was going to be asked of him, not the same at all as looking after the people in the bar. Mac would have done that anyway,as best he could. The Placard is about more than just that. Mac himmmed and hawaad, looking at the sign, then away..
Choosing to put his blood on the Placard, if it didn't cross the line for Mac, it blurred it to the point where it might no longer be there.. Because;
I looked up the meaning of "intercession." According to Wikipedia;
That my friends is taking sides, it is a pledge from Mac, that he'd be willing to ask for divine help to save those in his bar. The guys he refused to back many millennia ago in another battle between good and evil.
That's not my interpretation of the scene. My interpretation is that the plaque paints a target on the person who's blood is on it. The protection offered by the plaque is connected to Mac, so any attack would come at him.
That's a huge difference from helping defend. If the plaque had been present in the Cold Days attack, then rather than Before breaking the threshold of the place and attacking all three there, he would have had to have gone through Mac and killed him.
It's putting a huge, inescapable target on his back. It makes a huge difference in regards to strategy. It makes him the Tank. And if he isn't strong enough, he'll wind up dead.
And as for his reaction, his unease wasn't just putting his blood on it, if it was that at all. It was that Harry had deduced what he was.
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In angelology (mostly Jewish) they were given the job of teaching mankind civilization and/or magic (kind of depends on the source) but lusted after human women creating half breed children known as nephillim or anakim (Goliath incidentally was from these blood lines). Generally they are seen as fallen angels/demons but i don't think that's the case with Mac... at least not exactly.
Mac probably lusted after beer though. Tasy, tasty beer,
I believe there's a WoJ where he says Lasciel refused to take sides. If so, Mac's status as a "tripped" angel would need to be because of something other refusing to take sides. Or Jim will have to change that. WoJ is just something he's said. I don't consider it canon until it's in a book.
I thought the one about Lasciel's offense was more trying to convince both sides she was loyal to them and play them against each other for her own ends, not just honestly standing aside.
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And as for his reaction, his unease wasn't just putting his blood on it, if it was that at all. It was that Harry had deduced what he was.
We can agree to disagree, no, it was the placard, he knew what it meant, and he saw that Harry saw that he knew.
Mac saw the sign and his eyes widened. He looked at me, his face written heavily with consternation.
According to the dictionary, consternation means;
feelings of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected.
He knew what Harry was going ask of him. Up until the moment he saw the placard, as Harry had asked, Mac went with him and Murphy into his office to talk protection for those in the bar. His reaction was to the placard. His reaction to Harry knowing what he is and trying to see him with his sight, was "don't hurt yourself."
What does the placard do?
"It's embodied intercession.
What is intercession?
Intercession or intercessory prayer is the act of praying to a deity or to a saint in heaven on behalf of oneself or others. The Apostle Paul's exhortation to Timothy specified that intercession prayers should be made for those in authority. Wikipedia
Yup, taking sides in a big way.. I don't think Jim chose those words lightly.
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I don't really understand that Mac was supposed to ask for help. I see it more banal, if he fells the bar fells.
That's not my interpretation of the scene. My interpretation is that the plaque paints a target on the person who's blood is on it. The protection offered by the plaque is connected to Mac, so any attack would come at him.
That's a huge difference from helping defend. If the plaque had been present in the Cold Days attack, then rather than Before breaking the threshold of the place and attacking all three there, he would have had to have gone through Mac and killed him.
It's putting a huge, inescapable target on his back. It makes a huge difference in regards to strategy. It makes him the Tank. And if he isn't strong enough, he'll wind up dead.
And as for his reaction, his unease wasn't just putting his blood on it, if it was that at all. It was that Harry had deduced what he was.
What do you mean? That any attack will be redirected to him or that the attackers would actively search for him? Because I think it's the latter (and in fact, some attackers may not know how the protection is working). And then, Mac may be clever in choosing to hide (or better, blur in the background) better than actively tanking.
Also, I disagree with your interpretation about his unease. He specifically sighted before smearing his blood. I don't know exactly why. Perhaps it is because, as Mira says, he was choosing a side. Or perhaps is because he had too much devotion for the placard, perhaps he didn't feel worthy of doing that. I am not sure.
And I still don't know who told Harry all that about the pieces but I want to know what all of them (including the Grial) do in the Dresdenverse.
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And I still don't know who told Harry all that about the pieces but I want to know what all of them (including the Grial) do in the Dresdenverse.
Yeah, that remains a mystery, it could be that Alfred knows just what the artifacts can do.
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Such angels taught men. Wanna bet Mac taught brewing? I am convinced he is also Ethniu's ex, the father of Lug(h), the Celtic sun god. Such blood lines are known for giantism. You mentioned Goliath.
Watchers watch something. And they must report. I think of Mac as a spy or an investigator. He showed up in Chicago just before Harry.
If Mac is investigating, his appearance may be unrelated to Dresden, and related to the appearance of Nemesis and the odd occurrences which started the Dresden Files when they did and not before.
If he is watching, well, there is something that brought him there. 6'9" isn't unheard of, but it is odd for someone who's grandfather is 5'8" and who's father is not described as tall. Maggie Le Fey is 6' even. 5'10'' is the 99th percentile for women by my charts. [Butcher knows these charts: Ivy referred the her height percentile for her age.] I wonder if giantism run's in Harry's family, either from Ebenezer's wife or Malcolm's side. If Mac as a 'tripped' angel lusted after women, he may have a very personal reason for watching Dresden.
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I took it to mean that the bar has super protection, everyone in it will be safe, as long as Mac is alive. Which puts a huge target on his back. I didn't really take it to mean Mac himself will be forced to become super fighter to protect others. But he will be put in a position to fight to save his own life, if someone wants someone else in the bar dead.
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I thought the one about Lasciel's offense was more trying to convince both sides she was loyal to them and play them against each other for her own ends, not just honestly standing aside.
It could have been, and, yes, that's not just standing aside.
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I don't really understand that Mac was supposed to ask for help. I see it more banal, if he fells the bar fells.
What do you mean? That any attack will be redirected to him or that the attackers would actively search for him? Because I think it's the latter (and in fact, some attackers may not know how the protection is working). And then, Mac may be clever in choosing to hide (or better, blur in the background) better than actively tanking.
Also, I disagree with your interpretation about his unease. He specifically sighted before smearing his blood. I don't know exactly why. Perhaps it is because, as Mira says, he was choosing a side. Or perhaps is because he had too much devotion for the placard, perhaps he didn't feel worthy of doing that. I am not sure.
And I still don't know who told Harry all that about the pieces but I want to know what all of them (including the Grial) do in the Dresdenverse.
I guess we're just interpreting it differently, like Mira said. I don't know, I took it as the placard would put up a barrier to keep things out that were attacking. It's not powered by Mac, just as the other vault items don't seem to be powered by the wielder.
But Harry clearly states that it'll be dependent on Mac, that it "focuses energy on an individual", and that "Anything that wants to get to them will have to go through Mac first".
To me that sounds like it's creating a threshold that links to Mac. So either he dies if it falls, or the energy is directed at him, as described by Harry. Either way it's a lot.
But as for his consternation, to me it's clear that he's not nervous about the blood on the placard, but instead is nervous about Harry figuring out what he is. Harry even thinks "it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew."
Not that he was nervous about the placard or choosing sides or risking himself, but just Harry knowing that he was more than human.
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To me that sounds like it's creating a threshold that links to Mac. So either he dies if it falls, or the energy is directed at him, as described by Harry. Either way it's a lot.
That's where I'm at.
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To me that sounds like it's creating a threshold that links to Mac. So either he dies if it falls, or the energy is directed at him, as described by Harry. Either way it's a lot.
But as for his consternation, to me it's clear that he's not nervous about the blood on the placard, but instead is nervous about Harry figuring out what he is. Harry even thinks "it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew."
Not that he was nervous about the placard or choosing sides or risking himself, but just Harry knowing that he was more than human.
About the placard, my opinion: Yes, it creates a megathreshold. So, if a human just wants to kill Gary, he enters without problems and kills him (assuming no patron stopped him or her first), but King Cobb couldn't put a step in, or throw a fireball to the bar that damages anything inside. Now, if the first human goes for Mac instead of Gary and succeed (difficult as it may be), the threshold will become super weak (thresholds in taverns and bars are weak, before for their nature they are open to anyone that wants to enter) and every wizard, vampire, whatever, would enter with little troubles. So, if King Cobb wanted to kill Gary AND HE COULD SENSE THE KIND OF PROTECTION THE BAR HAS, he could send a human mercenary for Mac first. If no, he had no particular reason to go against Mac.
About the consternation. Yes, at first he was troubled about Harry knowing who (or what) he was (and perhaps about Harry having something like that). But after that, and when the first thing was already revealed as inevitable, he still seem disturbed about actually using the placard himself.
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But as for his consternation, to me it's clear that he's not nervous about the blood on the placard, but instead is nervous about Harry figuring out what he is. Harry even thinks "it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew."
Not that he was nervous about the placard or choosing sides or risking himself, but just Harry knowing that he was more than human.
No, lets go through this again..
1] Harry and Murphy enter the bar,Harry has his backpack with him.
"Mac," I said clearly. "Storage room. We need to talk."
Mac was a lean man around six feet tall with broad-knuckled hands and
a shinning bald pate,dressed in his usual black slacks, button-down shirt,
and spotless white apron. He'd been a friend for a long time. He looked at
me and then nodded toward his pantry and office.
No fear, no worry, he knows what is going on in the city and how scared people are and that
Harry wants him to look after those in the bar..
2] First thing Harry does is open his backpack and pull out the Placard. Note, Mac's reaction;
Mac saw the sign and his eyes widened. He looked at me, his face written heavily with consternation.
In other words, the sight of the Placard filled him with, feelings of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected.
Then Harry picks up on him knowing what it was that he had just pulled out of the knapsack. But the mere sight of it shouldn't have filled him with anxiety, but Mac knows the drill, he knows it puts him on a team.
3] Harry starts to question him closely, not just anyone would know what the sign was.. Wait lets back up a sentence.. Harry tells Mac that what is out there can kill everyone, so they need his help.
Mac nodded firmly
So far so good, Mac isn't afraid to put his butt on the line for those people. Then Harry questions him a bit closer how does he know what it is.. Mac is unwilling to say..
Mac looked from me to the sign and back grimacing.
I take that to mean, Mac isn't afraid to stand at the door with his shotgun to protect those people. However he doesn't want to commit to using the Placard.. Theory, putting his blood on the Placard commits him to sacrificing himself to save those people just like the Man on the Cross. That is taking a side, one he had turned his back on long ago and got kicked out of Heaven for. Harry clearly wants him to use the Placard, and now wants to know who he really is and tries to look at him with his sight. Mac stops him, gentally says "don't hurt yourself.." Doesn't say what he really is either.
No, Mac isn't upset because Harry has figured out what he really is.. After he takes his hand away from Harry's eyes, Mac steps back, resolved.
Resolved means Mac arrived at a decision, he is making a commitment, he is taking a side. Because
the power of the Placard is about this;
"It's embodied intercession. . .It focuses energy on an individual."
I said. "Something about pouring out the accumulated sins of humanity onto Christ, maybe. Hang it up and it puts up a kind of threshold that will hold off just about anything supernatural, as long as the property's rightful owner is alive."
So to Harry the Placard merely is a way to protect the bar. But to Mac, its about the pouring out of the accumulated sins of humanity onto Christ. Where Harry is merely guessing how it works, Mac knows, and he knows what it stands for, and yup, it is taking sides, the side of the Son of the Father.
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Nope, I'm just not seeing that way. Sorry. We'll have to differ. I don't see it being anything like taking sides. He's putting up a passive defensive measure for his patrons. I don't think that phases him at all. I interpret it as him just not liking Harry knowing, and having it be learned by others.
If anything I could see him not wanting to get involved in big things for other reasons, and wanting to be 'out' of it, but I think that's more about remaining anonymity, which he's losing by Harry learning about him.
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Nope, I'm just not seeing that way. Sorry. We'll have to differ. I don't see it being anything like taking sides. He's putting up a passive defensive measure for his patrons. I don't think that phases him at all. I interpret it as him just not liking Harry knowing, and having it be learned by others.
If anything I could see him not wanting to get involved in big things for other reasons, and wanting to be 'out' of it, but I think that's more about remaining anonymity, which he's losing by Harry learning about him.
Willing to and committing to sacrifice himself for his patrons is hardly passive..
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Willing to and committing to sacrifice himself for his patrons is hardly passive..
Irs literally guest law under the accords, which he joined as a neutral party. They're guests. Allowing harm to them, good manners aside, would invalidate all that he established in opening the bar.
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Irs literally guest law under the accords, which he joined as a neutral party. They're guests. Allowing harm to them, good manners aside, would invalidate all that he established in opening the bar.
But Mac would do that anyway, he'd stand there with his shotgun.
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But Mac would do that anyway, he'd stand there with his shotgun.
Yes. Which isn't taking sides.
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Yes. Which isn't taking sides.
Exactly, but putting his blood on the Placard and hanging it up, is.
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Exactly, but putting his blood on the Placard and hanging it up, is.
You also have to wonder if there is a cost of some sort that you eventually have to pay to gain the protection given by the Placard. Maybe something like his life force is tied to that location now.
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Exactly, but putting his blood on the Placard and hanging it up, is.
That's your opinion.
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That's your opinion.
Is opinion the right word here?
Hypothesis. As soon as it is testable and you can draw testable conclusions from it it becomes a theory. If it is confirmed sufficiently it becomes in practice a fact.
You doubt the validity of her hypothesis. In your opinion....
Proposed facts can be true, false or just unconfirmed. Opinion is more like a value attribute.
I would say your interpretation. Or maybe your, in my opinion, wrong or insufficiently supported, conclusions.
Opinions and facts are not interchangeable.
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That's your opinion.
Of course it is, just like yours..
You also have to wonder if there is a cost of some sort that you eventually have to pay to gain the protection given by the Placard. Maybe something like his life force is tied to that location now.
Lots of blood is associated with the Crucifixion, from the whipping, from the Crown of Thorns, from the nails in Jesus's wrists and feet, from the spear piercing His side. I think the smear of blood on the back of the Placard is tied to that somehow, pledge to sacrifice one's self maybe.
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Lots of blood is associated with the Crucifixion, from the whipping, from the Crown of Thorns, from the nails in Jesus's wrists and feet, from the spear piercing His side. I think the smear of blood on the back of the Placard is tied to that somehow, pledge to sacrifice one's self maybe.
In that particular aspect, I disagree. Blood has been used to activate spells and artifacts, from circles to the Demonreach pokeballs, all around the Dresdenverse. That is, regardless of its rapport to Christ or christianity in general.
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Of course it is, just like yours..
Lots of blood is associated with the Crucifixion, from the whipping, from the Crown of Thorns, from the nails in Jesus's wrists and feet, from the spear piercing His side. I think the smear of blood on the back of the Placard is tied to that somehow, pledge to sacrifice one's self maybe.
And in the end it is a human sacrifice but I do not think Mac would go that far and he knows more about it than Harry does.
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In that particular aspect, I disagree. Blood has been used to activate spells and artifacts, from circles to the Demonreach pokeballs, all around the Dresdenverse. That is, regardless of its rapport to Christ or christianity in general.
True, but one would think more so in this case.. The Blood of Christ takes center stage from the Last Supper through to the Crucifixion, those events are the origins of the artifacts.
And in the end it is a human sacrifice but I do not think Mac would go that far and he knows more about it than Harry does.
But that was his pledge when he smeared his blood on the Placard wasn't it? We still don't know what if anything the Placard does. Harry said, now if the bad guys wanted in they'd have to go through Mac. Well, wasn't that the case before he pulled out the Placard? Did it make the bar door a super threshold? It never sent out power vibes like the Spear did. When Murphy asked Harry what it was, he said it was the sign above Christ's head on the Cross, and that it stood for intercession. Looked that word up and it had a lot to do with asking God or some deity for aid. Which for Mac, as an exiled angel playing strictly neutral might not be that easy, unless at last he has decided to take a stand and a side for humanity's sake.
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Is opinion the right word here?
Hypothesis. As soon as it is testable and you can draw testable conclusions from it it becomes a theory. If it is confirmed sufficiently it becomes in practice a fact.
You doubt the validity of her hypothesis. In your opinion....
Proposed facts can be true, false or just unconfirmed. Opinion is more like a value attribute.
I would say your interpretation. Or maybe your, in my opinion, wrong or insufficiently supported, conclusions.
Opinions and facts are not interchangeable.
That's your opinion. 8)
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That's your opinion. 8)
Yup, we all have an opinion and like to express it, that's why we are here! ;)
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And I still don't know who told Harry all that about the pieces but I want to know what all of them (including the Grial) do in the Dresdenverse.
Off topic but I do wonder why the Real Shroud of Turin hasn't been used to either heal Helen Bickett's daughter (aka Persephone) or Murphy. Although honestly it is Persephone that has me wondering more cause Murphy likely declined if offered.
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True, but one would think more so in this case.. The Blood of Christ takes center stage from the Last Supper through to the Crucifixion, those events are the origins of the artifacts.
But that was his pledge when he smeared his blood on the Placard wasn't it? We still don't know what if anything the Placard does. Harry said, now if the bad guys wanted in they'd have to go through Mac. Well, wasn't that the case before he pulled out the Placard? Did it make the bar door a super threshold? It never sent out power vibes like the Spear did. When Murphy asked Harry what it was, he said it was the sign above Christ's head on the Cross, and that it stood for intercession. Looked that word up and it had a lot to do with asking God or some deity for aid. Which for Mac, as an exiled angel playing strictly neutral might not be that easy, unless at last he has decided to take a stand and a side for humanity's sake.
Of course if we just take not intercession, but the verb intercede, it just says 'intervene on behalf of another.' So I'm more on the following argument:
By taking up the placard, Mac is intervening on behalf of the people inside his bar. He intercedes between whatever may come at them and his guests. Hence, he's not taking a side, he's focusing any outside threat on him, whatever he really is, which is more powerful than just pretending to be a guy with a shotgun.
Likewise, in the crucifixion, TWC placed Himself between whatever ailed them (possibly the sins of mankind) and mankind or maybe just between those ills and the Jewish people (what with the inscription, at least in our world, mentioning the Jews). But in that case, through the additional artifacts used, it probably worked more permanently (or maybe TWC is just hiding deep in the NeverNever so that noone can break that intercession).
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So it seems to me we have two options on how the placard works. Passive, which would mean that everyone in the bar is safe as long as Mac is alive. The protection is a 'threshold' sort of protection. Or non-passive which would mean that Mac himself has pledged to fight for and protect anyone seeking sanctuary in the bar. Either way Mac is putting himself on the line and as is said, taking a side.
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I think it's passive, mainly because Jesus did not attack the Romans :D
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So it seems to me we have two options on how the placard works. Passive, which would mean that everyone in the bar is safe as long as Mac is alive. The protection is a 'threshold' sort of protection. Or non-passive which would mean that Mac himself has pledged to fight for and protect anyone seeking sanctuary in the bar. Either way Mac is putting himself on the line and as is said, taking a side.
I'll agree with everything except for taking a side. The only side he's taking is by upholding the accords which he's already agreed to. The faction attacking Chicago were in violation of the accords. He is agreeing to uphold his signing of them.
To me that's not taking a side, but if that's not others interpret it, okay.
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I'll agree with everything except for taking a side. The only side he's taking is by upholding the accords which he's already agreed to. The faction attacking Chicago were in violation of the accords. He is agreeing to uphold his signing of them.
To me that's not taking a side, but if that's not others interpret it, okay.
Wasn't he already doing that when Harry brought in the Placard. But hold it a minute, Mac's Bar is neutral territory, different factions meet there from time to time. Did Mac ever sign the Accords? If he had, he cannot reside over neutral territory, signing the Accords is taking a side.
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Wasn't he already doing that when Harry brought in the Placard. But hold it a minute, Mac's Bar is neutral territory, different factions meet there from time to time. Did Mac ever sign the Accords? If he had, he cannot reside over neutral territory, signing the Accords is taking a side.
He's had a sign on the wall since the first book that says it's Accorded Neutral Territory. He filled out the necessary paperwork.
He may not be a member of the Accorded Nations, but he's recognized as a neutral party, and his place is a neutral location. And I'd bet money that he's obligated to recognize the rules about guest law and whatnot.
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You know, depending on how the placard works, you are right, it might not be 'taking a side'. If it protects anyone taking sanctuary in the bar, then that could be ANYONE from ANYONE. An outsider could be hiding from Harry.
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You know, depending on how the placard works, you are right, it might not be 'taking a side'. If it protects anyone taking sanctuary in the bar, then that could be ANYONE from ANYONE. An outsider could be hiding from Harry.
Yup. If Ethniu had challenged Marcone under the rules of the accords, claiming he was illegitimate as a human, then she could have attacked Chicago legally and also strolled into Mac's bar in the middle of it.
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Not with the placard. An outsider couldn't get inside. That is what I understood I mean. An outsider couldn't enter the place unless someone killed Mac first.
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He's had a sign on the wall since the first book that says it's Accorded Neutral Territory. He filled out the necessary paperwork.
He may not be a member of the Accorded Nations, but he's recognized as a neutral party, and his place is a neutral location. And I'd bet money that he's obligated to recognize the rules about guest law and whatnot.
That is true, so why did he need the Placard then? It apparently didn't make him superman, nor did necessarily make his threshold any stronger. Yeah, before this all went down, an Outsider was in his place and named him for what he was, a Watcher. It was all about the Placard and the meaning of it that Mac was reacting to. Not Harry figuring out what he is, Mac wasn't upset, he was very calm when he prevented Harry from seeing him with his sight.. ""Don't," the mostly mute man said gently. "Hurt yourself."
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He's had a sign on the wall since the first book that says it's Accorded Neutral Territory.
It was first mentioned in Death Masks.
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It was first mentioned in Death Masks.
And if it is neutral territory, everyone is welcome, including the Fomor, not to tear up the other patrons, but welcome because someone neutral doesn't take sides... Thus by smearing his blood on the Placard and hanging it up, Mac took a side against the Fomor.. They weren't getting in his place.
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Not with the placard. An outsider couldn't get inside. That is what I understood I mean. An outsider couldn't enter the place unless someone killed Mac first.
We don't know what the placard does, specifically, other than protect a place. We don't know if it would do anything other than reinforce the threshold, or if it would do something to stop mortals with ill intent as well.
If Justine had walked in there, it might have let her in, if she did so under her own power and without ill intent.
It was first mentioned in Death Masks.
I stand corrected.
And if it is neutral territory, everyone is welcome, including the Fomor, not to tear up the other patrons, but welcome because someone neutral doesn't take sides... Thus by smearing his blood on the Placard and hanging it up, Mac took a side against the Fomor.. They weren't getting in his place.
The placard was set to defend the place and make Mac the conduit or link to the place. We don't know anything about how it works, but if someone showed up looking for shelter, including the Fomor, it might have let them in. We don't know the rules of how it works.
So saying he took sides to me is an overstep. He just did more of what he was already going to do, but at severely higher risk to himself.
It was all about the Placard and the meaning of it that Mac was reacting to. Not Harry figuring out what he is, Mac wasn't upset,...
I don't know why you're ignoring the text. Here's the direct quote.
“You know what it is,” I said.
Mac rocked back half a pace. He looked from the sign to me. He didn’t quite lick his lips in nervous guilt, but it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew.
The text says it's Harry's knowledge that upsets him, not the placard.
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Mac rocked back half a pace. He looked from the sign to me. He didn’t quite lick his lips in nervous guilt, but it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew.
The text says it's Harry's knowledge that upsets him, not the placard.
I think that line is ambiguous at best, Harry says, but it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew.
Because the line before that Harry says to Mac, "You know what this is."I said.
That wasn't a question, it was a declarative sentence, then Harry says, " he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew."
Harry uses "what" not who, Mac didn't like that fact that Harry knew that he knew "what" that old piece of wood was.
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I think that line is ambiguous at best, Harry says, but it was pretty clear that he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew.
Because the line before that Harry says to Mac, "You know what this is."I said.
That wasn't a question, it was a declarative sentence, then Harry says, " he didn’t like that I’d realized what he knew."
Harry uses "what" not who, Mac didn't like that fact that Harry knew that he knew "what" that old piece of wood was.
I think we're back to ATD, as we're interpreting the text differently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I think we're back to ATD, as we're interpreting the text differently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yup, and we will have to see in the next few books what Jim decides because I think that scene will have lasting consequences. Thus the ambiguity, I can here his sing song now, "I ain't a going to tell you...." Sigh.. :-X
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Yup, and we will have to see in the next few books what Jim decides because I think that scene will have lasting consequences. Thus the ambiguity, I can here his sing song now, "I ain't a going to tell you...." Sigh.. :-X
Oh, I'm sure it will. He answered questions in this one, and then dropped more questions.
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Oh, I'm sure it will. He answered questions in this one, and then dropped more questions.
Do you have the WOJs? I am not questioning that he answered questions on this, just curious as to what he said.
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We don't know ... if it would do something to stop mortals with ill intent as well.
I think it specifically said supernatural threats. I'm pretty sure, but would have to check.
Do you have the WOJs? I am not questioning that he answered questions on this, just curious as to what he said.
I'm fairly certain that Griff meant this book when he said "this one."
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m fairly certain that Griff meant this book when he said "this one."
Got that, but it still isn't clear what Mac was a bit upset about. That is what I wanted a WOJ about.
The dispute is between "what" verses "who." Griff thinks Mac was upset because Harry figured out who he is, stretching it, what he is.. I think Mac isn't so much upset that Harry knows what/who he is, but that Mac knows that Harry knows that he knows what the Placard is. As a result, Mac had to decide to commit to a side, which screws up his neutrality and his position the last few thousand years.
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Got that, but it still isn't clear what Mac was a bit upset about. That is what I wanted a WOJ about.
I don't think Griff was saying there were any on point WoJ.
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I don't think Griff was saying there were any on point WoJ.
Yeah, and as I said, if someone asks, he will giggle evilly and sing.." I ain't a going to tell you..." ::)
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I actually think is both things. Mac was not happy of Harry realizing what he is (an ex-angel, apparently). He was also hesitant about the placard, I couldn't say why.
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I actually think is both things. Mac was not happy of Harry realizing what he is (an ex-angel, apparently). He was also hesitant about the placard, I couldn't say why.
It is risk and involvement and it might draw the attention of those you want to avoid. He has to look at the long term consequences.
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I should have been clearer. Yes, I have my interpretation about that, but as it is not explicitly stablished, I don't know. I personally think you are right and also I insist, there is some hesitation in placing his blood in something so Holy. I am sure for Mac the placard meant a lot more than to Harry. For Harry, it is a mean for an end, for Mac is a memory full of significance. And, of course, a symbol. And symbols are important.
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It is risk and involvement and it might draw the attention of those you want to avoid. He has to look at the long term consequences.
Yes, and it is one thing to declare the bar neutral territory, all are welcome to enter the bar, saints, sinners, wizards, quacks, fae, and even Outsiders. Of course they are supposed to play nice and abide by the rules of hospitality etc.. Not unlike Switzerland during WWI and WWII. As defined;
Despite the apparent precision of these legal terms, neutrality for Switzerland during World War II, as well as for the other continental European countries that claimed neutral status during that period -- Portugal, Sweden, Spain, and the Vatican -- can best be summed up by the phrase, self-interested noncombatant.
However when Mac smeared his blood on the Placard, it was an oath that the bad guys would have to go through him if they wanted in the bar. He became an interested combatant, whether he ever stuck a blow or not, he had taken a side.
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Yes, and it is one thing to declare the bar neutral territory, all are welcome to enter the bar, saints, sinners, wizards, quacks, fae, and even Outsiders. Of course they are supposed to play nice and abide by the rules of hospitality etc.. Not unlike Switzerland during WWI and WWII. As defined;
However when Mac smeared his blood on the Placard, it was an oath that the bad guys would have to go through him if they wanted in the bar. He became an interested combatant, whether he ever stuck a blow or not, he had taken a side.
And that would be the question, in how the placard works. How does it determine who is the 'bad guy'. Would Mac be in control of who the protection works for, he decides who is the 'bad guy'? Or does it protect anyone within the threshold from anyone who wants to harm them? If it is the former, Mac would be taking a side. If it is the latter, then he isn't taking a side, just putting his life on the line to protect whomever is in the bar. Be interesting to see how it plays out in later books.
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And that would be the question, in how the placard works. How does it determine who is the 'bad guy'. Would Mac be in control of who the protection works for, he decides who is the 'bad guy'? Or does it protect anyone within the threshold from anyone who wants to harm them? If it is the former, Mac would be taking a side. If it is the latter, then he isn't taking a side, just putting his life on the line to protect whomever is in the bar. Be interesting to see how it plays out in later books.
But how can he judge who is the bad guy if it is neutral territory?
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But how can he judge who is the bad guy if it is neutral territory?
The one who disturbs the peace in your neutral territory.
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The one who disturbs the peace in your neutral territory.
Which would mean he isn't taking sides. If the protection is for anyone in the bar, from anyone who would harm them.
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I take that to mean, Mac isn't afraid to stand at the door with his shotgun to protect those people. However he doesn't want to commit to using the Placard.. Theory, putting his blood on the Placard commits him to sacrificing himself to save those people just like the Man on the Cross. That is taking a side, one he had turned his back on long ago and got kicked out of Heaven for. Harry clearly wants him to use the Placard, and now wants to know who he really is and tries to look at him with his sight. Mac stops him, gentally says "don't hurt yourself.." Doesn't say what he really is either.
I think there's easier explanation for Mac's anxiety and dismay than notion that in some way using Placard breaks his neutrality (because it does not at least by letter by Accords) - simply I mean this is Relic of celestial nature, with power of Logos Incarnated behind it, ergo something Mac left long ago - and it's hard to say what's his current position on this choice.
I think it's sort of guilt, regret, and such things.
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More or less along the lines of what I was saying.
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I think there's easier explanation for Mac's anxiety and dismay than notion that in some way using Placard breaks his neutrality (because it does not at least by letter by Accords) - simply I mean this is Relic of celestial nature, with power of Logos Incarnated behind it, ergo something Mac left long ago - and it's hard to say what's his current position on this choice.
I think it's sort of guilt, regret, and such things.
Yes, I think that may be more to the point than his neutrality or taking sides. I don't think Mac cares one way or the other if someone recognizes what he is, Vadderung seems to know, the Outsiders called him by name. Seeing the Placard and committing to what it stands for by smearing his blood on it, revisits a choice he made long ago, it will be interesting to see if this is a turning point and we see Mac evolving. Kind of like the shadow of Lasciel becoming Lash, yes, partly because of Harry, not unlike Mac, but a couple of more subtle personal things which I think were the real moments that began to change her. The first one was after Harry burned his hand so severely and Butters gave him a guitar to learn to play as physical therapy. Lasciel helped him and made a sad little comment with a hint of regret, she hadn't been able to make music in a very, very, long time. The second happened in Proven Guilty I believe, after he got back with Molly, Charity et all, they took refuge with Father Forthill. Harry wanders into the church proper and Lasciel now more Lash than Lasciel, says:
Lasciel's voide came to me, very quietly, and sounded odd. Sad. It is beautiful here.
Lasciel hadn't been reminded in a long long time what it was she gave up when she followed Lucifer, and she hadn't regretted her choice.. But I believe the two incidences began to make her maybe rethink a bit. I think when he put that blood on the Placard, Mac may not have regretted his choice all these years, but he may begin to rethink.
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Imma put this here...
In the Books of Enoch, the first Book of Enoch devotes much of its attention to the fall of the watchers. The Second Book of Enoch addresses the watchers (Gk. egrḗgoroi) who are in fifth heaven where the fall took place. The Third Book of Enoch gives attention to the unfallen watchers.[10]
The use of the term "watchers" is common in the Book of Enoch. The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 6–36) occurs in the Aramaic fragments with the phrase irin we-qadishin, "Watchers and Holy Ones", a reference to Aramaic Daniel.[11] The Aramaic irin "watchers" is rendered as "angel" (Greek angelos, Coptic malah) in the Greek and Ethiopian translations, although the usual Aramaic term for angel malakha does not occur in Aramaic Enoch.[12]
Some[who?] have attempted to date this section of 1 Enoch to around the 2nd–1st century BC and they believe this book is based on one interpretation of the Sons of God passage in Genesis 6, according to which angels mated with human females, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim. The term irin is primarily applied to disobedient watchers who numbered a total of 200, and of whom their leaders are named, but equally Aramaic iri ("watcher" singular) is also applied to the obedient archangels who chain them, such as Raphael (1 Enoch 22:6).
Imma see myself out... 8)
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The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.
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The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.
Maybe Mac was just on vacation for a century, and Harry and the placard reminded him holiday was over. Mab would consider a century of vacation 'active' ;)
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The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.
Yup, and isn't he the archangel that helps with Michael's safe room?
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The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.
She says "the Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands."
The theory is that Raphael gave his Grace to Merlin, who created Demonreach across space and time and dimensions, and Merlin then put the Grace into a vessel later named Alfred, leaving Raphael in the transubstantiated form of Mac, who made his choice and only watches now as Alfred fulfills the role of Demon Binder.
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The theory is that Raphael gave his Grace to Merlin, who created Demonreach across space and time and dimensions, and Merlin then put the Grace into a vessel later named Alfred, leaving Raphael in the transubstantiated form of Mac, who made his choice and only watches now as Alfred fulfills the role of Demon Binder.
This is extremely stretching things out I must say.
Such playing with reality should send Rafael to Hell, not to Irish Pub :P
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This is extremely stretching things out I must say.
Such playing with reality should send Rafael to Hell, not to Irish Pub :P
What do you mean? Raphael is really only known for a couple things. The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days. That fits pretty well with Demonreach.
The other things he's known for are more mundane, with him helping humans bind a demon and heal illness using things that might be interpreted as spells and potions. If these were done post-transubstantiation, it would fit with the WoJ that Mac has never done anything other mortals couldn't do (paraphrased).
The hangups are A) a necessary interpretation of Mab's meaning, and B) Lash's identification of the protection spells being the work of 'Raphael or one of his lieutenants'. I think the former is possible because Mab would totally be the type to care more about the mantle than the bearer, and the latter is explainable as it being a lieutenant did it, or Mac did it, or Lash including Raphael as a possible source because she doesn't know his status (which would have been post-Fall).
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The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.
The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days. That fits pretty well with Demonreach.
If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)
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The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.
Mab calls Uriel the Watchman, not watcher. And the Book of Enoch, which is what talks about the Watcher angels, also specially refers to Raphael and other non-Fallen angels as watchers. So it would seem that Raphael was also, at minimum, involved with the Watchers. Most angels involved with earth probably are.
If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)
Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).
It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.
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Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).
It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.
Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)
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Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)
I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse. It's either from the Book of Enoch or the Book of Tobit. Both reference Raphael binding a demon/angel in the desert. Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics. I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic. Grigori from Enoch have also become common in the urban fantasy genre, so he could be familiar with both stories to some degree prior to research for the books.
As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.
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I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.
Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?
Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.
Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.
As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.
Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.
I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.
I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD
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Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?
Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.
Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.
I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD
I think it's possible "Demon Binder" could be limited to just the Tobit story, but I'm guessing JB is aware of Enoch, either back when he first started, or more recently if he changed his mind on things. We don't know if Mac's significance changed as he wrote, like Butters' did.
Personally I think it's feasible that Demonreach is either Dudael itself, or it's Dudael 2.0. It would play well into the theories that Harry would use the inmates/ley line for a big spell at the end of the series, and Demonreach was the fuel for it, and Dudael is the "Cauldron of God" that the spell would be prepared with.
Of course, all that could be the case and not involve Mac at all. But it would explain why he was hanging around Chicago, and why he's relevant more than some random other unknown angel.
As for the nephilim being the old gods of pantheons, I think it could be likely, but I don't know that JB would ever limit it to that. It seems more likely that his Dresdenverse versions of gods are manifested Avatars of Creation rather than specifically angel children, because that'd be too much like saying one religion (the Abrahamic three, really) are above others. I don't get the sense that that's his intent.
So Ethniu's comment might be more that they're all Avatars of Creation, by design or otherwise, and are therefore superior to humans. But it could be interpreted either way.
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It seems more likely that his Dresdenverse versions of gods are manifested Avatars of Creation rather than specifically angel children, because that'd be too much like saying one religion (the Abrahamic three, really) are above others. I don't get the sense that that's his intent.
I don't know. So far abrahamic powers (even Fallen ones) seems to trump any others, including Ethniu and her fine armour - and her reaction for both Sword!Angel and Namshiel point out to some common history, and calling Sword (maybe Uriel) a traitor, points to some former common history and camraderie.
And TBH you have to make decisions as a writer - you cannot make all religions equally true, because well overalapping metaphysics is not all that working together. Reality needs to be consistent. Then on the other side - well even abrahamic religions in those books are sort of vanilla Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, than real Abrahamic religions creed, so there's that.
Now of course there are also other things - Odin and Ethniu are called Elemental Forces of Creation so it can points to some lesser angelic spirits (lesser than well Archangels whose duties probably encompass galaxies and probably many universes at once) who were responsible for shaping / maintaining structure of our maybe no Universe at large, but our Earth - so they are powerhouses here, it's sort of their domain so they command much more actual power than extremely restrained angels but in terms of actual level of power so far Angels fallen or not trumps those chthonic powers.
Then we have WOJ about multiverse and how free will split universes - so it's quite possible for "Abrahamic God" here maintaining free will is like maintaining mechanism of keeping multiverse big - this way for each universe devoured by Outside you've got countless more.
PS. And we have WOJ that THE CREATOR sacked all pagan gods from their jobs for being basically awful so you know any believing pagans can be sort of offended from the get go. Maybe except of Asatru.
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I don't know. So far abrahamic powers (even Fallen ones) seems to trump any others, including Ethniu and her fine armour - and her reaction for both Sword!Angel and Namshiel point out to some common history, and calling Sword (maybe Uriel) a traitor, points to some former common history and camraderie.
And TBH you have to make decisions as a writer - you cannot make all religions equally true, because well overalapping metaphysics is not all that working together. Reality needs to be consistent. Then on the other side - well even abrahamic religions in those books are sort of vanilla Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, than real Abrahamic religions creed, so there's that.
Now of course there are also other things - Odin and Ethniu are called Elemental Forces of Creation so it can points to some lesser angelic spirits (lesser than well Archangels whose duties probably encompass galaxies and probably many universes at once) who were responsible for shaping / maintaining structure of our maybe no Universe at large, but our Earth - so they are powerhouses here, it's sort of their domain so they command much more actual power than extremely restrained angels but in terms of actual level of power so far Angels fallen or not trumps those chthonic powers.
Then we have WOJ about multiverse and how free will split universes - so it's quite possible for "Abrahamic God" here maintaining free will is like maintaining mechanism of keeping multiverse big - this way for each universe devoured by Outside you've got countless more.
PS. And we have WOJ that THE CREATOR sacked all pagan gods from their jobs for being basically awful so you know any believing pagans can be sort of offended from the get go. Maybe except of Asatru.
Sure, but I think most religions had/have a Creator.
Ymir of the Norse is known more for birthing or supplying the line of beings (gods/giants) that eventually led to Odin and the rest, but he's not credited with actual creation. Atum of the Egyptian pantheon created both gods and the world, so he's more in line with the Creator mythos.
I think JB tends to lean into the elephant parable, so for the Dresdenverse, Atum might be a name for the same Creator as the Abrahamic religions. Ymir *might* be another name for the same, but I think it's more in line with Ymir being a second tier (or lower) being that spawned a pantheon.
In other words, it's not that the Abrahamic Creator is above other Creators, so much that they're all the same or descendents of one.
But I also swear that I saw or heard a WoJ (that I have been unable to find, so it's not supported) that Uriel *believes* he was present at the creation of everything, but that doesn't make it *true*. The implication seemed to be that Uriel is shaped, even beyond his own awareness, by what human religion established for him and the other angels.
I don't know if that was JB hedging to avoid offending those with different beliefs, or if it was an early mental draft to what he was developing for the story, or if that's an accurate description of the Dresdenverse. And since I can't find that quote, it's hard to support it. But it's something I keep in mind when thinking about the power structure.
Sure, he now says that the Archangels can obliterate galaxies, but is that because they always could, or because belief gave them that power, and they don't remember anything different because they are what is believed of them?
(For the record, I don't think this is the case. I think in the Dresdenverse, the pantheons are tiers and the Archangels are top tier, and always have been. But it's an interesting idea)
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I agree.
But also WOJ says that supernatural beings do not change their natures really. We just learn more about them as story progress.
And personally while I support totally supes getting high and mighty on spiritual or psychic power of faith of believers, I'm really tired of trope that gods/titans/faeries are just some manifestations of human belief and do not exist really beyond that.
Of course notion that various creator Gods of various religions are just overall notion of THE CREATOR, is something that was quite commonly accepted among Ancient Church Fathers, like primordial memory from time of original Fall, and then Flood.
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The other thing I read in the series is that the supernatural is retreating, leaving more and more of the action to humans. To keep influence you either have to give up power as Odin did or play it really subtle like Uriel. The widespread disbelief in the supernatural is likely part of that.
The creator god is part of that. He is depicted in as not doing that much anymore.
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Well if his angels cannot do much without destroying galaxy or two...
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I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.
The only thing I recall Jim saying is he was from the "fun" end of fundamentalism spectrum. Catholics are not typically considered fundamentalists, so he probably wasn't Catholic.
We don't know if Mac's significance changed as he wrote, like Butters' did.
I think Mac was important pretty early on. He's constantly described as fitting in the same age range. That was the first thing I noticed that made me think something was up with him.
But I also swear that I saw or heard a WoJ (that I have been unable to find, so it's not supported) that Uriel *believes* he was present at the creation of everything, but that doesn't make it *true*. The implication seemed to be that Uriel is shaped, even beyond his own awareness, by what human religion established for him and the other angels.
I don't know if that was JB hedging to avoid offending those with different beliefs, or if it was an early mental draft to what he was developing for the story, or if that's an accurate description of the Dresdenverse.
I recall Jim saying something like the Creator could have just retconned reality to make Himself the Creator and how would anyone know the difference. For the italicized portion, I feel like that was what Jim was doing, but that wouldn't make the bolded portion false either.
And personally while I support totally supes getting high and mighty on spiritual or psychic power of faith of believers, I'm really tired of trope that gods/titans/faeries are just some manifestations of human belief and do not exist really beyond that.
I think it's played a little different in the DF.
It could be that it's all about will. We've seen older beings with will so powerful that it flattens mortals because the will of a few (or maybe hundreds) of mortals can't compare, but the problem for these older beings is that there are billions of mortals. When the will of a billion mortals is that you're just a story, it probably has an affect on you. When you have a bunch of mortals devoted to you being all powerful or just really powerful, that also probably has an affect on you.
Or it could just be that mortal knowledge anchors these beings to reality. (I think your "supernatural beings do not change their natures" WoJ supports this one).
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The only thing I recall Jim saying is he was from the "fun" end of fundamentalism spectrum. Catholics are not typically considered fundamentalists, so he probably wasn't Catholic.
I'm quite sure he was raised Baptist.
I recall Jim saying something like the Creator could have just retconned reality to make Himself the Creator and how would anyone know the difference. For the italicized portion, I feel like that was what Jim was doing, but that wouldn't make the bolded portion false either.
OK... but then how it worked compared to what you pointed out yourself about beings "not changing their natures". I mean what does it says then about Uriel with his power way beyond our Galaxy, and his memories from beyond Creation? Were they changed by retcon? That open another can of worms - now Creator retconning universe sounds just like this last season of SPN XD
It could be that it's all about will. We've seen older beings with will so powerful that it flattens mortals because the will of a few (or maybe hundreds) of mortals can't compare, but the problem for these older beings is that there are billions of mortals. When the will of a billion mortals is that you're just a story, it probably has an affect on you. When you have a bunch of mortals devoted to you being all powerful or just really powerful, that also probably has an affect on you.
Definitely sups can use it to anchor themselves - if at least part of what Thomas revealed about Oblivion War is real.
Damn now it gets to me - White Court - whose members are humans are trying to weaken proper superpowers influence over world - so humanity can be thrown into abyss of animalistic instincts and become prey. Thomas says that Oblivionites almost managed to lock Faeries in Oblivion. And Winter Court is guarding Outer Gates.
White Court swore on Empty Night, papa Raith is dealing with Outsiders.
That leads... to many possible tinfoil conclusions.
What if White Court on general are pawns of Outsiders for a long long time...
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What if White Court on general are pawns of Outsiders for a long long time...
I've been saying that for years.. :o
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I've been saying that for years.. :o
Stars and Stones are McCoy's saying
Hells Bells seems to be Dresden's own
Empty Night - first we hear it IIRC from Lara Raith in "Blood Rites".
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There are clue going either way. Sure, Lord Raith knew summoning spells for Behind. Sure, the appearance of the white court demon's mirror world was a place of bones, which a similar ascetic to that of the landscape just outside the Gates, where there mountains of bones.
But there's also the fact that Mab is willing to try to liaison with the Wamps. Surely with all the resources at her and everyone else's disposal, they'd know of a fundamental connection between the Wamps and the Outsiders. And in their natural form (as seen in the mirror), Wamp demons are beings of *light*. They glow, head to toe. That seems to go against the Outsider all-darkness-no-light ascetic of Empty Night.
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There are clue going either way. Sure, Lord Raith knew summoning spells for Behind. Sure, the appearance of the white court demon's mirror world was a place of bones, which a similar ascetic to that of the landscape just outside the Gates, where there mountains of bones.
But there's also the fact that Mab is willing to try to liaison with the Wamps. Surely with all the resources at her and everyone else's disposal, they'd know of a fundamental connection between the Wamps and the Outsiders. And in their natural form (as seen in the mirror), Wamp demons are beings of *light*. They glow, head to toe. That seems to go against the Outsider all-darkness-no-light ascetic of Empty Night.
Is that a WOJ? Or did I miss something in the books or short stories? Because I don't reading that, so which story is it from? Harry describes the inside of Lord Raith as exactly what "empty night" is, so did Margaret wipe out his Hunger Demon, that is why he cannot feed, leave nothing? But that would seemingly contradict what Lara said about like Thomas, Lord Raith's Hunger Demon was consuming him.
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Is that a WOJ? Or did I miss something in the books or short stories? Because I don't reading that, so which story is it from? Harry describes the inside of Lord Raith as exactly what "empty night" is, so did Margaret wipe out his Hunger Demon, that is why he cannot feed, leave nothing? But that would seemingly contradict what Lara said about like Thomas, Lord Raith's Hunger Demon was consuming him.
You're describing the magical feeling that Harry got when his magic hit the void around Lord Raith. But that's been pretty well established, between Eb's comments and WoJ, to be a unique protection situation for Lord Raith.
The things I'm describing, with the demon being a creature of light, is from the soulgaze with Thomas. We see Thomas's demon in the mirror, and it's described as having glowing eyes and skin. Just like we see of their hosts when they tap their power.
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You're describing the magical feeling that Harry got when his magic hit the void around Lord Raith. But that's been pretty well established, between Eb's comments and WoJ, to be a unique protection situation for Lord Raith.
The things I'm describing, with the demon being a creature of light, is from the soulgaze with Thomas. We see Thomas's demon in the mirror, and it's described as having glowing eyes and skin. Just like we see of their hosts when they tap their power.
Yes, but given that Harry is a star born, the feeling that he describes from Lord Raith becomes more significant, because one of the things Harry manages to "feel," for lack of a better term is possession of others by Nemesis/Outsiders.
Harry is also looking at Thomas and his struggle with the Hunger Demon though a soul gaze which leans more towards the metaphorical than actual vision. In that same vision the Thomas struggling through the mirror with the demon is, his face is plain, he looks nearsighted, his expression strained with pain, shoulders and back tight with tension.
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I'm quite sure he was raised Baptist.
Baptists are often classified as fundamentalists, so that's certainly possible. I'm not, nor was I, saying he wasn't Baptist. Just saying what I recall hearing.
OK... but then how it worked compared to what you pointed out yourself about beings "not changing their natures".
I thought you brought that up? Doesn't matter. Their nature never changed. Just everyone's perception of it. Also, that WoJ does seem to conflict with a lot of what he and/or the books have said. So it could just be an inconsistency.