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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 09, 2020, 02:18:53 AM
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"I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place," Mab said. "But one does not place all one's hopes with any one place, person, or plan. Like chess, the superior player does not plan to accomplish a single gambit, a particular entrapment. She establishes her pieces so that regardless of what her enemy does, she has forces ready to respond, to adapt, and to destroy. Molly was made ready as a contingency."
Near the end of BG Harry meets the third walker, He Who Walks Besides. The Walker also refers to itself as Nemesis. I don't want to get into whether HWWBs is Nemesis or the three Walkers are all aspects of Nemesis. That's something for future books to sort out. No, I'm interested in who is going to confront Nemesis. From our perspective, because Harry is Starborn and has the ability to wield power over the Outsiders; according to Lash, and may be immune to being taken over by Outsiders; if Ebenezer is correct, he seems like Mab's primary choice to deal with Nemesis.
We don't know what the White Council wanted Starborn Harry for. Maybe it's the Outsiders, but it could be something else entirely. It's possible there are multiple roles a Starborn mortal can fill. However, the Big Boss of the entire series appears to be Nemesis. But all you have to do is read the statement I highlighted above to know that Mab has a contingency plan, or maybe it's contingency plans, for dealing with Nemesis and the Outsider threat.
I should also add that Harry is the primary Outsider solution, from our prospective. It's possible that Harry is Mab's contingency plan, but that doesn't matter. For ease of understanding, I'm going to stick with with the idea that Harry is primary. So, who is the backup or who is Mab's contingency plan?
The only other Starborn characters we know who are walking around are Elaine, Listen and Drakul. Somehow, I'm not seeing Drakul as the savior of the human race. In fact, in his final conversation with Lash, Harry makes an intuitive guess that there's relationship between the Outsiders and the Black Court. Then again, maybe the Outsiders taking over our reality would destroy Drakul's food supply so the creature might have a reason to oppose the Outsiders. Somehow I doubt that. If Listen is still alive, which seems doubtful after Harry buried him under a wall of dirt, he might be a candidate, but I'm just not feeling it. If Elaine had appeared in more than two books, I think she could have been an alternative to Harry, but she seems like a character who has been pushed so far to the sidelines as to be irrelevant. I'm sure that Jim will drag her back into the limelight at some point, and we still have to find out if she is Kumori and, or she was responsible for infecting Aurora, but as the being who will defeat Nemesis; well, there's nothing there to indicate she has the ability to do so.
Many of us suspect Nicodemus Archleone has his own plan to defeat the Outsiders. (I don't think it's been explicitly stated that that is the case.) In a scene on top of Marcone's castle discussing who can defeat Ethniu, Mab opines that Nicodemus could cut through her defenses. Mab clearly doesn't have a problem using monsters to get the job done. Of course, Nic's plan is likely to be some kind of scorched earth strategy, but Jim has stated that Mab will sacrifice everything, including herself, to accomplish her goals. If Nicodemus plan looks doable to Mab, she is that rare being who can put expected results ahead of personal issues, and she could always defer killing Nicodemus to a later time.
Finally, a new contender is John Marcone. Mab might see Marcone / Namshiel as a viable choice. If Nicodemus has a plan to defeat Nemesis, Thorned Namshiel might already be all in on that plan. Whether Marcone will agree with such a plan is questionable. Marcone might balk at burning down his own empire to stop Nemesis. However, we don't how long Marcone can remain himself. Like Harry, Marcone is a very willful mortal, but breaking down mortals is what Namshiel and the other Denarians do and have done for millennia.
Whether Harry is Mab's primary Nemesis solution or he is her contingency plan, who do you think is Mab's other choice or choices?
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Slightly off topic but you made me realize fix was not in BG 🤔
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Rashid is the first line of defense against Nemesis. Then Harry. Mab herself is a line of defense. She treated Lea. (I'm not sure if she cured her because of that comment about how she can't think about it too much).
Elaine might be a star born. We don't know. I'd expect her to be more connected to some supernatural power if she is. If she is Kumori, then she is connected to a supernatural power, and that power is the Black Council, which may or may not be entirely or partially controlled by Nemesis.
Slightly off topic but you made me realize fix was not in BG 🤔
I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.
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Rides in with Sarissa at the end
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I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.
ah, yea. He might have, but I don't remember him taking any shots during the battle himself.
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Rashid is the first line of defense against Nemesis. Then Harry. Mab herself is a line of defense. She treated Lea. (I'm not sure if she cured her because of that comment about how she can't think about it too much).
Elaine might be a star born. We don't know. I'd expect her to be more connected to some supernatural power if she is. If she is Kumori, then she is connected to a supernatural power, and that power is the Black Council, which may or may not be entirely or partially controlled by Nemesis.
I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.
If Rashid is defense; which he is, Harry is offense. Same for Mab. My guess is that Harry is the one who can permanently banish the Outsiders or at least do so until the next Starborn is born and comes into their full power, about 666 years from now.
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If Rashid is defense; which he is, Harry is offense. Same for Mab. My guess is that Harry is the one who can permanently banish the Outsiders or at least do so until the next Starborn is born and comes into their full power, about 666 years from now.
Will it? I am beginning to wonder, in Battle Ground they seem to be popping up all over the place.
We know Harry is one.
Drakul is one.
Listen talked like he was one.
Odd don't ya thing that two of the three are monsters? Interesting that they are born every 666 years, that is the Sign of the Beast..
In the light of that, Margaret choosing Malcolm of the pure and good heart to be Harry's father has even greater significance.
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If there is allready two options in Rashid and Harry, maybe Elaine is a good third choice. She is distances from Mab because her primary connection is to summer and she is distanced from the White Council because she is not on it. The backup has to be hidden like Molly was. That they killed Harry could be a good beginning of the motivaiton for Elaine. Maybe Mab has her through a summer favour?
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If there is allready two options in Rashid and Harry, maybe Elaine is a good third choice. She is distances from Mab because her primary connection is to summer and she is distanced from the White Council because she is not on it. The backup has to be hidden like Molly was. That they killed Harry could be a good beginning of the motivaiton for Elaine. Maybe Mab has her through a summer favour?
If anyone has her it is Sarissa.
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Finally, a new contender is John Marcone. Mab might see Marcone / Namshiel as a viable choice. If Nicodemus has a plan to defeat Nemesis, Thorned Namshiel might already be all in on that plan. Whether Marcone will agree with such a plan is questionable. Marcone might balk at burning down his own empire to stop Nemesis. However, we don't how long Marcone can remain himself. Like Harry, Marcone is a very willful mortal, but breaking down mortals is what Namshiel and the other Denarians do and have done for millennia.
I'm not sure where Namshiel stands vis a vis the rest of the Fallen. He didn't dissuade Marcone from the plot to bring Nic down, so there's evidently no particular loyalty there. On the other hand, Nic referred to Namshiel losing his last host as a loss of Tessa's sorcery tutor. That may indicate their partnership was somewhat recent, since if it had been a matter of centuries, she probably would have learned all she could. He might be somewhat similar to Lasciel, making temporary alliances but ultimately playing his own agenda.
As to where he stands vis a vis Mab, if she thinks he's Nemfected because of the Arctis Tor business, I doubt she's going to be banking on him. But we still don't know whether Nemesis infecting a Denarian would infect the host, the Fallen, or both.
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Right every 666 years a Starborn is created.Suppose at that point there is a single universe in which the Starborn are created, but that universe branches based on decisions that Starborn makes until the BAT arrives, at that point only one of the multitudes of branched universes has the possibility of producing a Starborn capable of defeating the Outsiders in that ‘Endgame’ all other branched universes are destroyed by the White God to prevent the Outsiders getting in, leaving a single universe which will start branching again when the next Starborn is created.
All other universes (such as this) exist but are not directly vulnerable to the Outsiders, but if the Outsiders get into The Engame universe and win, then all of these other universes are vulnerable, putting all of reality at risk.
This would require that the Dresdenverse is a local group of the multiverse which ranges from one to perhaps hundreds of universes depending at which point of the cycle it is at. This is complicated where there is more than one Starborn as it would massively increase the number of the local Dresdenverse universes in which one cannot be sure is the Engame universe.
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Every 666 years the star born cycle happens. I need to go back over that Convo(only have audible 😒) but one thing I see ppl getting consistently wrong is thinking only one Starborn at a time... Listens is mortal, he can't be older than most wizards alive today. He was born in the same cycle as Harry. thinking of starborn as a singular occurrence is wrong. Even if the light only shines for a couple hours on a singular day that's not going to be just one child.
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It is clear from what Jim has said that there can be multiple starborn, and that to be starborn you need two things:
1. To be born at roughly the right time. Apparently it wasn't an exact minute kinda thing, and Harry and Elaine were both contenders, so it may even range over months.
2. They need to be "activated" in some way. Not everyone who was born on Harry's birthday is a Starborn, but I suspect Harry has been since he was "activated" by HWWB.
It is clear from what bigfoot said that this is a normal process - something big is coming, and it is normal and important to have starborn when it does. The older wizards are hanging on to have some say in whatever the big thing is that's coming.
It's clear from what Listen's said to Ethnui that he is a Starborn, and that makes him valuable. It seems to me that every faction that wants to be a player in whatever is coming (some like the Svartelves may just want to keep their heads down) needs to have a Starborn.
Potential/known Starborn:
1. Harry
2. Listen (deceased?)
3. Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3. Elaine (per WOJ)
4. Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5. English guy in Demonreach?
And that leads me to a big question, who is the White Council's Starborn? They crap all over Harry all the time and just threw him out. There is no way they would be throwing him out if he was their plan. So who are they grooming to be their Starborn contender? Harry is really the only person of his generation we see, everyone else is always markedly older or younger, and since all starborn should be the same age that means we haven't seen a contender yet.
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It is clear from what Jim has said that there can be multiple starborn, and that to be starborn you need two things:
1. To be born at roughly the right time. Apparently it wasn't an exact minute kinda thing, and Harry and Elaine were both contenders, so it may even range over months.
2. They need to be "activated" in some way. Not everyone who was born on Harry's birthday is a Starborn, but I suspect Harry has been since he was "activated" by HWWB.
It is clear from what bigfoot said that this is a normal process - something big is coming, and it is normal and important to have starborn when it does. The older wizards are hanging on to have some say in whatever the big thing is that's coming.
It's clear from what Listen's said to Ethnui that he is a Starborn, and that makes him valuable. It seems to me that every faction that wants to be a player in whatever is coming (some like the Svartelves may just want to keep their heads down) needs to have a Starborn.
Potential/known Starborn:
1. Harry
2. Listen (deceased?)
3. Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3. Elaine (per WOJ)
4. Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5. English guy in Demonreach?
And that leads me to a big question, who is the White Council's Starborn? They crap all over Harry all the time and just threw him out. There is no way they would be throwing him out if he was their plan. So who are they grooming to be their Starborn contender? Harry is really the only person of his generation we see, everyone else is always markedly older or younger, and since all starborn should be the same age that means we haven't seen a contender yet.
You know, there is one other person we can add to the list of possible starborn individuals. Nicodemus could be starborn from a previous cycle. 3 x 666 years = 1998 years. That would put Nicodemus' birth roughly a couple of decades before the birth of Jesus, about 24 BC
Here is the math. According to the official Dresden Files timeline, Harry was born roughly 26 years before the events in Storm Front. If Storm Front takes place in 2000, that puts Harry's birth in 1974. A year or two either way doesn't make a significant difference in the overall calculation.
If Nicodemus is starborn; born in or very near 24 BC, he would have been in his mid-fifties around the time of The Crucifixion. Not an impossible age to reach back then, but for most people it would have been old age or very close to what would have been considered old age back then.
Someone had to gather up the thirty pieces of silver to place the fallen in. Someone had to take the noose that Judas used to hang himself from the body. Why not Nicodemus? This would mean that Nicodemus was the very first Denarian as well as being Starborn. There is no direct evidence in the Dresden Files novels for this to be the case, but it feels right.
I don't think Tessa can be Starborn. Nicodemus takes her; probably buys her, from a brothel in Greece (Thessalonica) when she is still a teenager. If Tessa was born in 24 BC or a year or two in either direction, there weren't any Denarians when Nicodemus found her and Nic wouldn't have been one at the time.
It is still possible but it's messy. A wealthy person in the Roman Empire who purchased a sex slave wouldn't marry her. It might happen in a Hollywood movie, but not in real life. I think they marry after they become Denarians, because they both would have been outside of normal society then, but that is just my guess. In any case, Tessa lacks the gravitas to feel like a character who might be starborn.
I started this thread four years ago asking the question, "Who is Mab's backup plan?" Her backup if Harry can't stop Nemesis or Harry dies before the final confrontation. The answer is obvious now. It must be Nicodemus.
Mab got her revenge against Nicodemus by manipulating him to kill his own daughter; the only person Nic could trust to have his back. Mab isn't above turning around and using Nicodemus if she deems it necessary.
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Potential/known Starborn:
1. Harry
2. Listen (deceased?)
3. Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3. Elaine (per WOJ)
4. Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5. English guy in Demonreach?
All important, but one has to ask the question, what in the hell is a starborn? We know supposedly that one of Harry's talents if you could call it that is he has power over Outsiders. Is that true of all starborn? Or is Harry unique? Rashid may fit, he fights Outsiders at the Outer Gates, and he may be old enough to be born 666 years ago, but at the same time being born in the right year doesn't a starborn make.. There are other factors that go into it if Lash is to be believed. What of Listen and Drakul? Do they have power over Outsiders as well? Or were they formed for something else?
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If Listen is still alive, which seems doubtful after Harry buried him under a wall of dirt, he might be a candidate, but I'm just not feeling it.
Listen is a cockroach. Unless the body is seen on page, assume he's going to continue causing trouble.
I doubt he'd be amenable to switching to team Mab, though.
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All important, but one has to ask the question, what in the hell is a starborn? We know supposedly that one of Harry's talents if you could call it that is he has power over Outsiders. Is that true of all starborn? Or is Harry unique? Rashid may fit, he fights Outsiders at the Outer Gates, and he may be old enough to be born 666 years ago, but at the same time being born in the right year doesn't a starborn make.. There are other factors that go into it if Lash is to be believed. What of Listen and Drakul? Do they have power over Outsiders as well? Or were they formed for something else?
That, as they say, is the $64,000 question. My guess is that a starborn can do more than just dominate Outsiders. Listen said something about an endgame to Ethniu, with the word endgame being cut off. We don’t know if the endgame is the final battle with the Outsiders / Nemesis or if the endgame comes after that.
Marva was the first character to mention The Stars and Stones as an event rather than to use it as a curse. We don’t know what that is. Is it the endgame, a precursor event to the endgame or a completely separate event that is only related to the endgame in proximity, but not directly connected to it?
I would guess that the names of the final three novels give us a small clue to how events will proceed. I remember Stars and Stones is the name of one novel and Empty Night is the name of another. I can’t remember the title of the third novel or what order they are in. I can guess Stars and Stones will involve the Black Court and Drakul and Empty Night will be Nemesis, but beyond that I have no clue.
One more thing. The conversation between Listen and Ethniu has made me believe that Ethniu is the key to Listen being starborn. She seemed to be his sponsor rather than Korb. I think a major supernatural player like one of the Queens, a Titan, old god or an Angel or Fallen Angel does something to a person born at the right time that takes them to next level.
Harry had this starborn ability before he became the Winter Knight; according to Lash, but he already had had contact with Mab prior to becoming her Knight. Getting that last ingredient might be something unnoticeable by a mortal or it might be something like Mab sticking a letter opener in Harry’s hand or stabbing Harry may have distracted him from feeling whatever tingling sensation happens when someone becomes a fully activated starborn individual.
Now that I think about it, Harry defeated HWWB when he was 16. So Mab couldn’t have anything to do with Harry being starborn. Lea visiting Harry in the orphanage. That is a huge stretch. So, maybe Harry’s mother did something before Harry was born for his abilities to be fully activated when his magic came in. That makes sense, but it doesn’t explain who other starborn characters were activated.
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Now that I think about it, Harry defeated HWWB when he was 16. So Mab couldn’t have anything to do with Harry being starborn. Lea visiting Harry in the orphanage. That is a huge stretch. So, maybe Harry’s mother did something before Harry was born for his abilities to be fully activated when his magic came in. That makes sense, but it doesn’t explain who other starborn characters were activated.
Or does a starborn need to be activated at all? When 16 year old Harry defeated HWWB he was a terrified kid just trying to survive, he didn't even have a clue of what he was fighting. Until Lash told him, he had no clue that the only reason why he was able to survive his encounter with HWWB was because he was a starborn. Maybe this is one of the things that sets Harry apart from the other starborns we've come across, he had no clue that he was, he just did. By that I mean if someone knows they have all these powers from the time of birth they may form a type of megalomania.
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Mira, you could be right, but I just thought of another, more frightening possibility. I’ll have to reread the scene in Ghost Story featuring HWWB vs. Harry, but didn’t HWWB touch, cut or simply poke Harry in the back? This occurred before Harry ran outside. That could have been when Harry’s starborn abilities were activated.
Way back in Storm Front Harry said he carried a magical marker or stain from HWWB, from their first meeting. If the Walker thought or planned on making Harry its agent it might have purposely activated Harry’s abilities.
If anyone from the White Council looked at Harry with their Sight; and recognized what they saw, it might be another reason they feared Harry. This also reminds me that Morgan decided not to use his wizards sight to look at either Mac or Harry when he was scanning Mac’s place for possible spies hiding under a veil in Dead Beat
The stain left by HWWB might be very disturbing for a wizard to look upon and if Morgan had ever used his Sight on Harry before, this would explain why he wouldn’t want to do so again.
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The stain left by HWWB might be very disturbing for a wizard to look upon and if Morgan had ever used his Sight on Harry before, this would explain why he wouldn’t want to do so again.
The residue of the walker certainly seemed to make an impression when the ThreeEye addict looked at him all the way back in SF.
I've also wondered for quite a while about a connection between wizards looking at each other with the sight and a soulgaze shared between wizards and mortals. Seeing the walker's residue would contribute to the running away screaming or psychotic breaks from some of the mortals who have looked Harry in the eye. Sure, he's powerful and somewhat prone to a temper, but agent Denton thought he saw actual Hell in Harry all the way back in the second book, when he hadn't really done anything all that disturbing other than (probably) kill Justin in a fair fight. But if Denton got a conduit to looking at the Outside? That would do it.
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Good point about the three-eye addict. What I find striking about that encounter, is the three-eye addict; who would have been a total newbie to the world of magic compared to a wizard, recognized the name of the Walker, as if it was written in bold letters on Harry.
That strongly suggests that Warden Morgan or anyone from the White Council who used their wizard sight on Harry would also recognize it. Not all wizards would know about Nemesis, but Morgan and most of the Senior Council would.
Now I really want to see a flashback scene to when the White Council first caught up with Harry to get an idea of what they experienced and how they perceived Harry. I imagine it was Morgan who apprehended Harry, but we could be surprised and find out Morgan wasn't the only one there.
P.S. I also like the idea of the soulgaze revealing that Harry has been touched by darkness that comes from the Outside. It makes the phrase "Empty Night" carry more meaning.
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Now I really want to see a flashback scene to when the White Council first caught up with Harry to get an idea of what they experienced and how they perceived Harry. I imagine it was Morgan who apprehended Harry, but we could be surprised and find out Morgan wasn't the only one there.
P.S. I also like the idea of the soulgaze revealing that Harry has been touched by darkness that comes from the Outside. It makes the phrase "Empty Night" carry more meaning.
I believe it was in Blood Rites when Eb mentions that he did do a soul gaze on sixteen year old Harry. What he says he saw was lots of anger and incredible talent.. I think if he saw darkness of the kind an Outsider would bring, or evil, Eb would have said so. Also if you will remember Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he thought he was slipping into warlockhood or what ever evil they were looking for. Yeah, I am aware that Eb is Harry's grandfather, but I do believe he would have killed him if necessary, just like you'd put down a mad dog no matter how beloved...
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3. Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
That would be a real stretch of the WOJ that Drakul is "something inhuman that got trapped in human form". The WOJ frames the inhuman part as the part that makes Drakul what he is, he's more than just a warped human.
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That would be a real stretch of the WOJ that Drakul is "something inhuman that got trapped in human form". The WOJ frames the inhuman part as the part that makes Drakul what he is, he's more than just a warped human.
He is, but this confuses the issue doesn't it? :-\ Is there a WOJ saying that one doesn't have to be human to be star born? Or did the fact that Drakul was a human star born make his worse as a vampire? Same goes for Listen, supposedly before he became a Fomor he was a human star born.
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He is, but this confuses the issue doesn't it? :-\ Is there a WOJ saying that one doesn't have to be human to be star born? Or did the fact that Drakul was a human star born make his worse as a vampire? Same goes for Listen, supposedly before he became a Fomor he was a human star born.
I agree, it does seem odd, with this caveat. Ebenezar said that Kinkaid had worked for Drakul for centuries, so that means that Drakul is really old, but so is Mab and she was once mortal. So, Drakul might have also have once been a mortal.
We can take a guess that the Blackcourt was the creation of the Outsiders. We only have Harry's intuition to go on here, that there is a relationship between these two groups, but I think it makes sense.
In this scenario we might see the Outsiders; perhaps one of the Walkers, did something to a mortal Drakul to make him change into "the creature" as Ebenezar describes him. It would be an effective way to remove a starborn individual from being a potential threat into one that serves the Outsiders own purpose, even if only indirectly.
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What I find striking about that encounter, is the three-eye addict; who would have been a total newbie to the world of magic compared to a wizard, recognized the name of the Walker, as if it was written in bold letters on Harry.
A newbie, yes ... but the drug was a project of some of the outsider affiliates.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sells and at least some of his accomplices had also been recruiting a lot of their customers into becoming outsider cultists, and teaching them enough of a smidgeon about the outsiders to become dangerous. The whole project starts to make a lot more strategic sense for Nemesis if you consider turning on the sight in otherwise negligibly magical humans as step one of mass producing summoners. (If so, JB is *really* owed some big props for burying a clue that deep, that early)
All of which is to say, sure, the addict saw something and knew what it meant ... but he might have been more educated about that narrow slice of the supernatural than one would think at first.
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In this scenario we might see the Outsiders; perhaps one of the Walkers, did something to a mortal Drakul to make him change into "the creature" as Ebenezar describes him. It would be an effective way to remove a starborn individual from being a potential threat into one that serves the Outsiders own purpose, even if only indirectly.
It would, but again we do not have enough information about star born. Lash said, a star born, "has the potential to wield power over Outsiders. Interesting quote because when the word potential is used, it hedges all bets. In other words, the power and talent are there if everything goes right. We can say that Simone Biles was born with the coordination, strength, and size to have the potential to become the greatest female gymnast the world has seen up to this point. However, injury, choices, and a dozen other things can change that, so she never reaches that potential.
I think the Outsiders know a lot about star born, and as you point out, know how to twist it to their advantage. I also think timing is everything, that's why HWWB went after Harry when he was still a sixteen year old innocent as far as knowing anything about this.
A newbie, yes ... but the drug was a project of some of the outsider affiliates.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sells and at least some of his accomplices had also been recruiting a lot of their customers into becoming outsider cultists, and teaching them enough of a smidgeon about the outsiders to become dangerous. The whole project starts to make a lot more strategic sense for Nemesis if you consider turning on the sight in otherwise negligibly magical humans as step one of mass producing summoners. (If so, JB is *really* owed some big props for burying a clue that deep, that early)
All of which is to say, sure, the addict saw something and knew what it meant ... but he might have been more educated about that narrow slice of the supernatural than one would think at first.
I think you may be on to something here, that addict may have been fascinated with the supernatural and became sucked into a cult, told a lot about Outsiders or maybe even meeting them through summons.. Then given the drug so they could see what normal mortals can't see, Outsiders. However the addict lacked any further talent or enough talent to be of use, so he was discarded and became yet another victim to drug addiction. Where as Sells, had enough talent that he was given access to knowledge, also addictive and eventually became a sorcerer brewing the 3 Eye.
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However the addict lacked any further talent or enough talent to be of use, so he was discarded and became yet another victim to drug addiction.
Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings. Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.
From Nemesis' perspective, addicts who would summon some of its foot soldiers in exchange for their next hit would be pretty much ideal. It doesn't need them to be high-functioning for much else.
Which leads to another related speculation ... what if Sells' lack of fear of the Wardens wasn't, as Harry assumed, because his tutor just kept him ignorant of how dangerous they were, but rather because Sells meant to summon a protector that could tank anything the Wardens tried to do to it? That's got me wondering if Sells' toad demon that Harry fought was actually a minor outsider, and Harry just never considered it anything more than a Nevernever demon because his power actually worked on it, and it's received wisdom for him at that point that that means Nevernever demon, not Outsider?
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Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings. Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.
Vanilla humans have always had the power to summon Outsiders. I believe that was the point in Blood Rites. My point is, without education the addict would see the Outsider but have no clue what he or she was seeing. Need to go back and reread the passage, because I cannot remember if the addict called what he saw by name or not. Even if he just called it an Outsider, he wouldn't know what he was seeing beyond a drug induced hallucination, which would be very real in that moment.
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The three-eye addict specifically named the Walker. Here is the exact quote:
"Wizard!" he trumpeted. "Wizard! I see you! I see you, wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!"
Here is an edited version of what Harry said after this encounter:
"...I am marked, indelibly, with the remnants of the presence of a hunter-spirit, a sort of spectral hit man known as He Who Walks Behind...but even though the hunter-spirit had never gotten to me, the mark could still be seen upon me by those who knew how, by using the Third Sight, stretching out behind me like a long and horribly shaped shadow. Sort of a spiritual scar to remind me of the encounter.
But only a wizard had that kind of vision, ... And that junkie had been no wizard.
Was it possible that I had been wrong in my initial assessment of ThreeEye? Could the drug genuinely grant to its users the visions of the Third Sight?"
So, the three-eye addict saw the mark of HWWB. The addict also mentions "those who walk before." Maybe that refers to other Outsiders the addict saw or it could be something Jim has retconned out of the story. I used to think it referred to the Walker we met in Cold Days, but it doesn't make sense that HWWBf or any Outsiders would be running around Chicago at that time.
Now that I think about, it might fit with my, Elaine is nemfected idea, I posted in another thread. I don't mean the three-eye addict saw Elaine, I mean he saw the Outsider magical traces that Elaine left on Harry in the moments that led up to Harry's final confrontation with Justin. It is a reach, but it fits, maybe.
Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings. Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.
From Nemesis' perspective, addicts who would summon some of its foot soldiers in exchange for their next hit would be pretty much ideal. It doesn't need them to be high-functioning for much else.
This is a good explanation why there were so many summoners on the barges that came to invade Demonreach in Cold Days and the summoner or summoners who; we were told in Dead Beat, called up Outsiders to fight the White Council on behalf of the Red Court. Morgan said, "the mortal wizards who betrayed us," suggesting he believed wizards called up the Outsiders. If you don't need wizards to call up Outsiders, only a ritual and maybe someone with a minor talent, then it doesn't have to be Cowl, Peabody (in Dead Beat) or any other Black Council wizard.
The summoners on the barges were cannon fodder. No need for wizards to expose themselves to the dangers of attacking Demonreach or being in the middle of a battle between the White Coucil and Red Court.
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Now that I think about, it might fit with my, Elaine is nemfected idea, I posted in another thread. I don't mean the three-eye addict saw Elaine, I mean he saw the Outsider magical traces that Elaine left on Harry in the moments that led up to Harry's final confrontation with Justin. It is a reach, but it fits, maybe.
I have said that as well, especially since one of my theories was that it was Elaine who infected Aurora. However it never occurred to me that Elaine would have left her mark on Harry, but when you think about it, it makes sense. Elaine, the one infected, Harry the star born, immune, but scarred by being so close to her for all those years.
So, the three-eye addict saw the mark of HWWB. The addict also mentions "those who walk before." Maybe that refers to other Outsiders the addict saw or it could be something Jim has retconned out of the story. I used to think it referred to the Walker we met in Cold Days, but it doesn't make sense that HWWBf or any Outsiders would be running around Chicago at that time.
I still go back to my point, someone, most likely whoever was feeding the third eye to the addict was also educating him. Otherwise the addict would have no clue of what his vision was telling him. An ordinary vanilla human addict wouldn't know an Outsider from an insider, nor would he know it by it's name.
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Vanilla humans have always had the power to summon Outsiders. I believe that was the point in Blood Rites.
Free-willed humans, anyway. And, sure, the ritual to summon a champion like Behind worked OK with one low-level talent and two unpowered helpers, and maybe didn't strictly require Madge having been a weaker practitioner to pull off (although that probably helped get it done multiple times before making a fatal mistake). But the other methods that involve calling up a squad of individually weaker outsiders, like in CD, or DB / PG when the Reds were supported by mortal-summoned outsider foot soldiers, those do seem to need at least a low-level practitioner.
Even with the little fish being a lot more common than council-level talents, relatively few people want to sign on to unmake the world in the name of tentacled horrors from beyond. As Harry puts it, most people don't want to mess up the place where all their stuff is. But if you can upgrade a non-powered cultist who already has sufficient insanity, or empower some random victims who are too addicted to care about anything beyond more of the drug, that eliminates a bottleneck to bringing over actual armies.
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Even with the little fish being a lot more common than council-level talents, relatively few people want to sign on to unmake the world in the name of tentacled horrors from beyond. As Harry puts it, most people don't want to mess up the place where all their stuff is. But if you can upgrade a non-powered cultist who already has sufficient insanity, or empower some random victims who are too addicted to care about anything beyond more of the drug, that eliminates a bottleneck to bringing over actual armies.
All of that may be true, but someone had to teach that three eye addict what an Outsider was, and what their names are! I don't think it is a simple matter of three eye drug pushers on the street selling his or her wears to a would be addict. I think it is more of a cult thing, actually the big clue there is what Harry found at the summer house that belonged to Sells. Imagine for lack of a better term, using Harry's name for them "The Black Council," luring in those vulnerable to occult like shenanigans with promises of say, "mind expansion," "contact with the other side," among other things. The type of stuff people use mushrooms and LSD for, on three eye, they start meeting some really interesting and frightening creatures, i.e. Outsiders. What we don't know is how this is valuable or how the "the Black Council" can use these addicts to their cause. Clearly the one who spotted HWWB's shadow or aura around Harry was scared out of his wits by the sight, but to what purpose? That's the mystery that Harry never solved back in Storm Front.