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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 05, 2020, 02:14:57 PM
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Okay, the first important question I have is, is Bob once again living with Harry? Butters hands him to Harry in a backpack in the battle, Bob goes into a lot of stuff, hold that thought will get into that in a minute. So okay,I can see Butters doing that, Harry needs all the help he can get in the battle. Butters himself has advanced in his Knight training to the point where he may no longer need Bob to be successful. There also might be some Holy Knight ethics questions around using an entity like Bob in a fight that Holy Knights are involved in. I actually think that unlikely because Sanya uses an AK-47 or rather the Russian version of that that I can't spell and it isn't a problem. I am thinking that Butters indeed gave Bob back to Harry, because Harry used him to scan the castle's wards and to check further for traps after Marcone vacated it. Now he still might be on loan, but I do think Bob is back with him.. Which brings up a couple of more questions, 1] is Bob going to tutor Bonea now? 2] Is Harry going to have to keep her locked up when she gets older, least he suddenly becomes inundated with a bunch of infant Bobs? ::)
2] The BIG QUESTION, did Bob give us a huge preview of what Mirror Mirror is all about? Why else would in the middle of the battle when things are going to hell would Bob map this out for two or three paragraphs? I know others have written about this so I apologize for repeating some of it.
A] Reality can break.
1] I got the impression from what Bob said, that the Eye can do it. Unless it was an illusion Harry put a stop to it when he bound the Titan and shipped her off to Demonreach.
2] However there is another way this can happen.. Ferrofax, Bob confirms that. We know he said he was going to limit what he was going to do to help in Peace Talks.page289
"My contribution to the defense must be subtle," Ferrofax said. "To do otherwise
would be to risk destroying more of the city than I save."
What if he meant more than a fricking earthquake, but reality itself. What if though he tried to be subtle, but it is hard to be when you are one of the primal forces in the universe. Collateral damage is always a risk, in this case, it is reality.
2] page 156 Battle Ground
"Chaos," Bob said.
"More specfic?"
"Impossible! Widespread insanity for the mortals, maybe. Maybe transmissible insanity. Hallucinations, tulpas, and outright unintentional creation of things right out of people's imaginations. Animals and people changing form or nature. The breakdown of Newtonian physics. Hell, even quantum-level rules might change, with the consequences that are literally unimaginable.
Two plus two might equal five. Twilight Zonestuff. I don't know. No one knows. You cannot predict chaos because it's chaos, Harry.
So maybe it starts slowly, have we seen perhaps some evidence that this might be beginning to happen? Marcone/Namshiel being so cooperative with Harry for starters. While yes, Marcone wanted to save his city, but can you really see Namshiel handing over the Eye that easily to Harry? Or in fact Marcone handing over his castle? Reality frayed just a bit maybe? While Namshiel isn't, Marcone even as host is still a mortal.
The White Council, all mortals, powerful wizards, true, but still mortal. While we knew before it all hit the fan that they wanted to vote out Harry, a couple of things don't seem quite right. They declare that Harry violated the First Law when he killed some Turtlenecks with magic. Sentenced him to death, ordering the Blackstaff to do it, then suspended the sentence. Does that not seem just a bit off to you? Then there is Carlos coming to Harry to give him their verdict is also a bit off.
I am talking specifically his rant about if Harry had only leveled with him, talked to him, Drakul and Mavra wouldn't have showed up and did what they did. Further that sixty thousand people wouldn't have died in Chicago. Really? Harry could have talked all day to Carlos, that wouldn't have changed any of that. Though back to reality, I can see Carlos being very pissed about what Harry did putting that hex on his cloak..
So, here is where we are in the next book. Reality is cracking and someone has to go back and somehow prevent Ferrofax from doing the damage he did.. Not a small order.. As far as the Laws of Magic are concerned, in this case in for a penny, in for a pound. He is already accused of breaking the First Law, technically another when he raised Sue, and bonding Toot to him with pizza, so what is one more? Time.. I also predict that the "British Prisoner " is Merlin. Harry is going to wake him up to ask for advice.. Historically/methodologically speaking Merlin has lots of experience with dragons, most likely knows Ferrofax personally, also knows time travel... So Harry begins his quest and the first problem he encounters is how to tell reality from the alternate reality, and the temptations he might encounter not to return things back to the way they should be.. I don't know, Murphy lives and isn't killed, his father and mother never were murdered, hell he might decide he would prefer it if he never was born a wizard at all.. His second problem, dealing with Ferrofax. So, we shall see.. ::)
Oh and one more thought, since Chandler was booted into with might be an alternate reality by
Drakul, Harry meets up with him. Chandler then becomes Harry's "Spock" if you will, keeping him grounded on what is real and what is not. If anyone makes it back to this reality with Harry, it is going to be Chandler.
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Oh and one more thought, since Chandler was booted into with might be an alternate reality by
Drakul, Harry meets up with him. Chandler then becomes Harry's "Spock" if you will, keeping him grounded on what is real and what is not. If anyone makes it back to this reality with Harry, it is going to be Chandler.
I kinda thought this played into Chandler being Black Council Cowl more than anything. The others were taken to be eaten/changed into Blamps and Chandler was sucked into nothingness. (Or some dark, dank, mildew-smelling dampness)
Cheers!
Brien
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Woj is Bob became an adjunct of the KotC because butters was using him for such things.
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First in my not so humble opinion ;), Harry is Merlin and he isn't going to tell himself anything. Second, Bob previewed what will happen when the Outsiders break through. Third, Bob lives on the shelf in the basement workshop. A lab must have a lab assistant. ;) 8)
He's telegraphed the plot of Mirror Mirror. A body switch like what Corpsetaker does might be in order, which is more or less like the TOS Mirror Mirror, then some kind of nasty surprise, like Susan trying to eat him or finding himself in the Middle of a shootout with Murphy and the MIB. The plot of the Star Trek version used the conceit that it was easier for Good Kirk to act bad than for Bad Kirk to act good. But your guess is as good as mine.
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I think this also explained something about the Darkhallow, it’s a reality breaking event in its own right but one of more narrow focus, creating a dark god.
And no Harry won’t become Merlin, he will do a Darkhallow and become Odin, and god knows how many others. It’s one way to get Murphy back.
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I think this also explained something about the Darkhallow, it’s a reality breaking event in its own right but one of more narrow focus, creating a dark god.
And no Harry won’t become Merlin, he will do a Darkhallow and become Odin, and god knows how many others. It’s one way to get Murphy back.
What about becoming a god in his own right? No, I don't see Harry doing either unless he is forced to in the BAT. And no, I don't think he will get Murphy back, however he may see her in the alternate universe, and finds out that he is doing time for the murder of Kim Delaney, because Murphy, now a captain in the P.D. made her rep in that case..
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We will definitely see MM-Murphy
I agree what most of what you said in your first post, Mira, but I think Namshel left him the Eye because Harry had probably the most terrible weapon against Denarians around. It was simply too risky. Beside, they don't know how to use it so it was not an immediate benefit for them.
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1. Harry would absolutely not want Bob around to help teach the daughter of a fallen angel. Bonea likely has more knowledge, much more magical knowledge, than Bob has and no context of how to use it and Bob has only a limited understanding of morality. Also, remember that Bob absorbs or takes on some aspect the personality of the holder of the skull. So any moral improvement Bob may have picked up under Butters will be diminished by being around the Winter Knight. Harry can act appropriately around Bonea, but because of their working relationship, he is always going to be more unfiltered around Bob and I don't think that's a good thing.
Harry isn't a monster, but just barely. He has to fight the temptation to cut loose all the time. My guess is that until Harry gets some anger management training from River Shoulders, he is a time bomb waiting to go off. In Peace Talks, Harry worried that he could be out of control with anger the way Ebenezer was. Murphy replied, "There's a difference between you and him... Yeah. You've got me." Harry doesn't have Murphy any longer. Sure, Harry got his act together for the big battle, but that was only after getting burned by Fidelacchius. Long-term, Harry still has some serious work to do before it would be good for him to possess Bob.
2. How, no make that why would Harry use The Eye? Also, why would Ferrovax cross into the mortal world in his true form? Without further context I don't think either of these ideas makes sense. What seems more likely to me is Ethniu's gratuitous use of the Eye of Balor has made it easier for Alt-Harry to summon our Harry to his world. I wouldn't be surprised if Alt-Harry does a James Bond villain info dump and tells Harry that it was really difficult to summon Harry's from other universes, but it was real easy to pull our Harry across.
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Harry’s power with the Eye is that he can keep it from being used, not to use it himself.
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Harry’s power with the Eye is that he can keep it from being used, not to use it himself.
It will also make people more careful around him.
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If reality breaking is a part of the MM thing then what bob says about people imagining things and them becoming real could explain conjuritis, it may be a ripple traveling back in the river of time from a future tear of reality
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Harry’s power with the Eye is that he can keep it from being used, not to use it himself.
(future WAG-time) The only time I see the eye being brought out again is sometime around the BAT. Harry gets possessed or influenced by something strong (though not an outsider because he's Starborn), carries the eye to the greatest reality barrier earth has: The Outer Wall. Whatever gets him there, he/it uses the eye to bring down the wall. Maybe he accidentally releases a creature from The Well, or didn't put correct stipulations on it, and it takes Harry over.
Oh and one more thought, since Chandler was booted into with might be an alternate reality by
Drakul, Harry meets up with him. Chandler then becomes Harry's "Spock" if you will, keeping him grounded on what is real and what is not. If anyone makes it back to this reality with Harry, it is going to be Chandler.
I like this theory.
1] is Bob going to tutor Bonea now?
While it would be amusing, this sounds like a terrible idea. Harry hopefully has enough sense by now not to put those two heads together.
Though I can imagine some wacky hijinks if they do. Just think: A short story involving Maggie, Mouse, Bob, and Bonea. They go on a case to help Harry without him knowing it. lol....Maggie as the leader, Mouse as the sensible/responsible one, Bob as the trouble-maker, and Bonea as the one that tries to help but ends up making things more complicated.
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About MM, what if Harry comes back with MM-Harry and MM-Murphy. She stays here with him and the other one marries Lara and then finds a way back home. So, no vows for our Harry.
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About MM, what if Harry comes back with MM-Harry and MM-Murphy. She stays here with him and the other one marries Lara and then finds a way back home. So, no vows for our Harry.
I have my doubts that he's going to be coming back with anyone. Given that MM-Harry is likely wholly dark side, it's more probable, I think, that normal Harry is going to end up having to kill him ... which will definitely give him some more issues. (Does that count as suicide?) And considering Grave Peril was when the Nightmare really tore into Murphy & they were at the height of distrust as a result, I can't see MM-Murphy becoming an ally. Time will tell, I suppose.
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I have my doubts that he's going to be coming back with anyone. Given that MM-Harry is likely wholly dark side, it's more probable, I think, that normal Harry is going to end up having to kill him ...
Or, this will be the one where he breaks the time travel law by sending a message back to his younger self to ensure he doesn't make the bad choice, aborting the mirror timeline entirely.
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Or, this will be the one where he breaks the time travel law by sending a message back to his younger self to ensure he doesn't make the bad choice, aborting the mirror timeline entirely.
I don't think that can work without removing the choice that spun off the mirror timeline. Which would violate Free Will. For Free Will to mean anything, and to work the way Jim seems to have set it up, the Choice must always exist. Otherwise it wouldn't mean anything if you could force the best possible outcome every time.
And the only way to remove such a choice would be to kill Harry before he made it (and deal with that horrible reality) or compromise his will to such a degree that the choice was made for him. I am not sure what would happen then, but I suspect then only one universe would exist from that particular moment, rather than the several possibilities that might have followed (as far as we know, there are only two but I suspect there might have been more).
It feels like Jim is setting this up as Lucifer's goal: a universe without Free Will. Which...doesn't really make sense. Why would the Archangel that rebelled because he didn't have [enough] Free Will want a universe that followed some predestined path? I hope Jim goes a more interesting route myself. And perhaps I have jumped the shark here, so perhaps I shouldn't be so worried.
Ultimately, Uriel said it best. The distinction between Good and Evil is meaningless unless one has the freedom to choose between them.
I suppose then, for choices to still be free, Harry will just have to ride out the consequences. And so will MirrorHarry, wherever they lead.
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It feels like Jim is setting this up as Lucifer's goal: a universe without Free Will. Which...doesn't really make sense. Why would the Archangel that rebelled because he didn't have [enough] Free Will want a universe that followed some predestined path? I hope Jim goes a more interesting route myself. And perhaps I have jumped the shark here, so perhaps I shouldn't be so worried.
Except I think Lucifer would argue that his universe is the one with the true free will, because he wants free will without rules, so chaos..
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@Mira
By definition Free Will implies no rules.
@Yuillegan
Jim may have a story line doing something very close to what Snark Knight suggests. Isn't this the nature of the Archive's purpose as revealed by Jim. The difference is that the purpose is not to destroy the Old Gods, they would continue to exist but there would be no path between that reality and Dresden's.
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By definition Free Will implies no rules.
I disagree, everything has rules, limitations and the consequences, free will is more about your choice of limitations.
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I disagree, everything has rules, limitations and the consequences, free will is more about your choice of limitations.
Everything you mention are exercises of Free Will or attempts to restrict it, but Free Will itself is the absence of any rules. In the sense that there are no predetermined paths. In a deterministic universe there are no consequences since there are no choices. If you murder then you were meant to murder, you don't have a choice.
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In a deterministic universe there are no consequences since there are no choices. If you murder then you were meant to murder, you don't have a choice.
Why should it even be called murder?
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Why should it even be called murder?
Because it is an unlawful killing. It is part of the script. And according to those who believe in a deterministic universe you are also predetermined to go to hell for it. Before you decided, not decided, to kill.
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Why should it even be called murder?
And you go straight to the crux of the matter.