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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on September 18, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
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Harry says that a lot as we all know... But in Peace Talks, Eb says on page 31 when Harry says it
"I just fed you pancakes,' I muttered. How tense were things in the old man's world
that he would react like that? "Stars and stones."
"Don't say that," he said, his tone slipping into a more familiar,grouchier cadence. "You don't know what it means." "The guy I learned it from wouldn't teach me," I said back.
So what could it mean? Why didn't Eb ever teach Harry what it meant? And why is Eb so uptight?
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Harry says that a lot as we all know... But in Peace Talks, Eb says on page 31 when Harry says it
So what could it mean? Why didn't Eb ever teach Harry what it meant? And why is Eb so uptight?
A burnout. That can be pretty serious.
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A burnout. That an be pretty serious.
Yeah, even at this point Harry realizes that something isn't right with Eb.
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It always makes me think of Stonehenge, and the idea that it was meant to be a kind of calendar when certain stars line up with certain stones and such.
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It makes me think of asteroids and meteorites. One can become the other, and I suspect Eb has done exactly that in the past, given the Ortega incident and his affinity for Earth Magic. Tunguska anyone?
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Pet theory: It's a Starborn thing- recall how the corner hounds saw Harry.
If Starborn are living conjunctions, they can alter reality. Perhaps their ability to hurt Outsiders is from accepting the Outsider avatar as part of reality by interacting with it- and that's why they can hurt them
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Eb is extremely agitated, gruff, and distrustful more than normal. While this could be due to Harry being Winter Knight, even Ramirez is acting abnormal toward Harry (but that could be from disastrous results from Molly), I'm thinking Eb is Nemfected. Maybe Harry has some Starborn power to slap Eb sober? Highly unlikely, but a faint hope.
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Mmm, I theorize it has to do with celestials and starborn. One thing that might support that was Harry describing the power in the swords to a star.. I place high emphasis on the way Jim chooses his descriptions.
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Eb is extremely agitated, gruff, and distrustful more than normal. While this could be due to Harry being Winter Knight, even Ramirez is acting abnormal toward Harry (but that could be from disastrous results from Molly), I'm thinking Eb is Nemfected. Maybe Harry has some Starborn power to slap Eb sober? Highly unlikely, but a faint hope.
On the reread, the idea that Eb is Nemfected entered my mind also, but then again that seems
way too obvious.
Another thing that bothered me on the reread, Harry put heavy wards around the apartment, but knowing the svartalves can "earthwalk" or move through the earth like water, why didn't he ward the floor as well?
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Another thing that bothered me on the reread, Harry put heavy wards around the apartment, but knowing the svartalves can "earthwalk" or move through the earth like water, why didn't he ward the floor as well?
Well...he lived in a basement for 15+ years. Probably never considered attacks from below.
Jim has also stated that Harry is the incompetent buffoon type of wizard. In WK while fighting Malvora in the deeps, he never considered 3D fighting, only 2D.
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Well...he lived in a basement for 15+ years. Probably never considered attacks from below.
Jim has also stated that Harry is the incompetent buffoon type of wizard. In WK while fighting Malvora in the deeps, he never considered 3D fighting, only 2D.
Living in the basement has nothing to do with it, he knew about the abilty to "earthwalk." Harry may have started out as incompetent, but he no longer is. It was never a question of competence, more of laziness, he never studied any harder than he needed to to get by. Like a lot of bright students, he got along because of his raw talent. It was only when he was saddled with the responsibility for Molly that he applied himself. Where pre-White Night he'd be hard pressed to pull off a half assed veil, he can do a very competent job of one now.
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True true. And with Mabs's training, Harry should have known better.
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Another thing that bothered me on the reread, Harry put heavy wards around the apartment, but knowing the svartalves can "earthwalk" or move through the earth like water, why didn't he ward the floor as well?
Good catch.
Warding the door, but not the floor:
1) It's a *much* smaller surface area.
2) It suggests he wasn't thinking of the svartalves as a threat, just external invaders.
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Presumably because he thought the Swartalves guarded that approach
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Presumably because he thought the Swartalves guarded that approach
More to the point, I don't think he saw them as a threat. But then again he states that though he doesn't like to do it, he did know how to earthwalk, or more precisely it is something if any decent wizard is capable of learning. So an unwarded floor left him and his little family vulnerable, except he has Sir Mouse, who is always on the job.
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Harry says that a lot as we all know... But in Peace Talks, Eb says on page 31 when Harry says it
So what could it mean? Why didn't Eb ever teach Harry what it meant? And why is Eb so uptight?
Harry doesn't know, but it's actually a low-key Tolkien reference. "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree" Eb just doesn't want all his Wizard friends to find out that he's actually a giant nerd.
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It always makes me think of Stonehenge, and the idea that it was meant to be a kind of calendar when certain stars line up with certain stones and such.
I think it's either this (with reference to Conjunctions) or an Outsiders thing. In the Lovecraft story "At the Mountains of Madness" the Antarctic Old Ones (enemies of Cthulhu) left behind these five-pointed star stone things, which later Cthulhu Mythos authors made into weapons against Cthulhu-type entities.
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Harry doesn't know, but it's actually a low-key Tolkien reference. "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree" Eb just doesn't want all his Wizard friends to find out that he's actually a giant nerd.
Not bad, Jim has retrofitted third party fiction into the Dresden files several times, the Bothers Grimm and their attempt to take down the Faerie Courts, Bram Stoker and the take down of the Black Court, and most recently the Lovecraft Mythos and Corner Hounds, so why not JRR.Tolkein?. I wonder if Eb met Tolkein during the First World War when pursuing Kemmler? If so did he inspire Gandalf? And Kemmler Saruman?
We know Kemmler started WW1 and Eb was the Blackstaff even then, so not impossible.
Eb would definitely be embarrassed if it came out he was the inspiration for Gandalf. Harry would love it, and tease Eb about it endlessly.
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However if it is a Tolkien reference wouldn't Harry get it? We know he has at least a copy of "The Two Towers."
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The is the trench song “The Bells of Hell Go Ting a Ling a Ling” was current from 1911 onwards it was feature in “Oh, What a Lovely War” and from Wikipedia
“A 1966 Mirisch Productions World War I war film with the title The Bells of Hell go Ting-a-ling-a-ling starring Gregory Peck and Ian McKellen, directed by David Miller and with a screenplay by Roald Dahl, was abandoned after five weeks filming in Switzerland.[4] The film, depicting the air raid on the Zeppelin base at Friedrichshafen, was abandoned after early snow in the Alps.[5]”
Bloody Gandalf no less, before he became Gandalf, truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction
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Well...he lived in a basement for 15+ years. Probably never considered attacks from below.
Jim has also stated that Harry is the incompetent buffoon type of wizard. In WK while fighting Malvora in the deeps, he never considered 3D fighting, only 2D.
Like in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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True true. And with Mabs's training, Harry should have known better.
A wizard should know better.
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When Eb scolded Harry, it mentioned that he did so in his usual grouchy way. Could it maybe be an inside phrasing/joke with Eb and someone else? Maybe even between Eb and Margaret?
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A wizard should know better.
Harry's training was never conventional.
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Yes, he never actually attended a Convent, though it’s easy to get confused given the long flowing formal robes and lack of sex.
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Harry's training was never conventional.
https://youtu.be/v7NzBTRzCkg?t=12
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https://youtu.be/v7NzBTRzCkg?t=12
The wizards of the Lord of the Rings are not the wizards of the Dresdenverse, they are neither human nor elf.
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The wizards of the Lord of the Rings are not the wizards of the Dresdenverse, they are neither human nor elf.
No, they're angels cosplaying as Santa. Still doesn't change the fact that Harry is a Wizard that apparently used int as his Dump Stat.
He should know better, but Jim has a much easier time writing the story if Harry is an idiot.
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No, they're angels cosplaying as Santa. Still doesn't change the fact that Harry is a Wizard that apparently used int as his Dump Stat.
He should know better, but Jim has a much easier time writing the story if Harry is an idiot.
This made me almost spew my food. But let's be honest, Harry would have high stats in Intelligence and Charisma (don't get me wrong, he uses wit a lot and is able to get people to follow him into the crazy, scary, frightening situations) but his stats in WISDOM are extremely low. Hence the not warding on the floors and his constant putting of foot in his mouth. He's very smart and can think quickly, but doesn't do so well with common sense and perception.
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This made me almost spew my food. But let's be honest, Harry would have high stats in Intelligence and Charisma (don't get me wrong, he uses wit a lot and is able to get people to follow him into the crazy, scary, frightening situations) but his stats in WISDOM are extremely low. Hence the not warding on the floors and his constant putting of foot in his mouth. He's very smart and can think quickly, but doesn't do so well with common sense and perception.
Not sure I would describe it that way; most Harry plans are pretty good but made up as he goes along, yes, but most of them aren't triggered by Harry messing up - they are triggered by an external crisis.
His skill is going off on a charge BEFORE there's a plan, rather than like other players waiting for the plan to develop and THEN move. He thereby gains crucial time. That, to me, is wisdom too.
Instead I would say his charisma is a dump stat, and he substitutes something like luck; he is always pissing people off by his ways, but somehow gets away with it for other reasons. I mean, he went to a vampire party as a CHEESY vampire.
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This made me almost spew my food. But let's be honest, Harry would have high stats in Intelligence and Charisma (don't get me wrong, he uses wit a lot and is able to get people to follow him into the crazy, scary, frightening situations) but his stats in WISDOM are extremely low. Hence the not warding on the floors and his constant putting of foot in his mouth. He's very smart and can think quickly, but doesn't do so well with common sense and perception.
Yes but his corresponding stats in WISEASS are immeasurably high. Pity it does him absolutely no good at all.
And yes please, let’s have Uriel have to pick up the Kringle Mantle when Odin dies at Ragnarok /BAT with Sasha dressed as an especially heavily armed elf. The kids would wet themselves if they thought they had made the naughty list.
Imagine Sasha growling out “Santa Claus Is Coming To Town “ to a group of 5 year olds “You’d better watch out, you’d better not hide...” the parents would wet themselves, let alone the kids.
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This made me almost spew my food. But let's be honest, Harry would have high stats in Intelligence and Charisma (don't get me wrong, he uses wit a lot and is able to get people to follow him into the crazy, scary, frightening situations) but his stats in WISDOM are extremely low. Hence the not warding on the floors and his constant putting of foot in his mouth. He's very smart and can think quickly, but doesn't do so well with common sense and perception.
Of course not, in wizard years, Harry is still young.. He has seen a lot, but not like his peers that have a couple of hundred years under their belts. He has done and does pretty well, considering, but he is going to make mistakes, that is how the young learn. Harry also never had the benefit of proper training in ALL aspects of being a wizard. Justin did teach him the basics and did that very well, but Justin also had a goal in mind for his young apprentice, so so much for ethics and theory and other things that go into a well rounded wizard. Eb, when he got a hold of Harry was worried about having a powerful young time bomb on his hands.. He also had orders to kill his grandson if need be. Eb also knew the mistakes he made with his daughter, so he eased off. It isn't like he let Harry play, plenty of chores on that old farm in the Ozarks, however aside from a heavy dose of ethics and what magic should be, he didn't teach him a whole lot. That comes through while they are battling the Cornerbreasts in Peace Talks.. So the practical side of things Harry has had to teach himself the last twenty years... That is barely a blink of an eye in the life of a wizard.
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Harry is a bit of an idiot savant, with emphasis on the idiot.
He is in his own words “Kinda smart” but it is case solving, and most of that is his subconscious, which is waaay smarter than conscious Harry. This is largely improvising, with the occasional forethought thrown in However in more recent books he is thinking more ahead on everything, he may be playing more dumb now than being dumb, as with Eb, where he outmaneuvred a wizard with three centuries on him.
He is also kinda dumb though, he still, despite knowing better, shares the wisdom of his ass when he shouldn’t, and misses things like the tension between Molly and Lara and or what is wrong with Carlos which he really shouldn’t and doesn’t ask about. He annoys people sometimes just for the sheer joy of annoying them
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Harry is a bit of an idiot savant, with emphasis on the idiot.
He is in his own words “Kinda smart” but it is case solving, and most of that is his subconscious, which is waaay smarter than conscious Harry. This is largely improvising, with the occasional forethought thrown in However in more recent books he is thinking more ahead on everything, he may be playing more dumb now than being dumb, as with Eb, where he outmaneuvred a wizard with three centuries on him.
He is also kinda dumb though, he still, despite knowing better, shares the wisdom of his ass when he shouldn’t, and misses things like the tension between Molly and Lara and or what is wrong with Carlos which he really shouldn’t and doesn’t ask about. He annoys people sometimes just for the sheer joy of annoying them
Since he wrote about it, Harry didn't miss the tension, what he missed was the significance.. However I don't think that has come out yet.
The annoying people for the sheer joy is at once immaturity and being a smart ass... However being a smart ass has also been a clever tactic when going up against someone stronger and smarter than he is.
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Yes but he antagonises people he doesn’t need to antagonise, merely because sometimes they are in authority. Jokes on Harry, by the end of BG he is going to be THE authority, and boy is that going to bite him in the ass. If Jim doesn’t write a character who treats Harry like he treats people in authority, with the same type of snart assery, then Jim isn’t allowing Harry to develope.
About time Harry had a new apprentice.
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Maybe birthing Bonea has given Harry serious pregnancy/new mommy brain. We have no idea the ramifications that may happen and Bonea was extremely overdue. All mommy kind of lose it those first few years. I know I did, and i still haven't gotten it back. XD
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The wizards of the Lord of the Rings are not the wizards of the Dresdenverse, they are neither human nor elf.
Way to miss the point.
If were going with D&D, Harry didn't really have a dump stat. He has too much strength and constitution for a wizard. Then he took the Winter Mantle feat and really over invested in those stats. He's probably got too much wisdom too. Have you seen his will checks!? Too much agility, too. He's talked a lot about how agile he is.
Charisma and Intelligence are the most likely areas for his dump stat, but I'm not convinced. Bob and Elaine have both been impressed by his enchantments. He's always solving mysteries and thinking his way out of trouble. So he's definitely not a slouch in the int department. As JumpyDragon said, there's good evidence that he's got a high charisma stat. There was serious concern in Changes that Harry would split the Council by leading the young wardens into attacking the Red Court. They would have followed him if they hadn't been captured. Him showing up was enough for there to be a plot to assassinate Ariana while she was under a flag of truce.
The problem with Harry isn't his character sheet; it's his character. Harry has psychological problems that cause him trouble. He avoids introspection and questions about himself. He has a serious problem with lipping off. But we've seen him move away from these character flaws as he's aged. In a D&D sense, what Harry lacks is xp, and boy is he going out of his way to fix that.
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Way to miss the point.
No, not missing the point, I believe you are.
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When Harry plays D & D he plays as over muscled barbarians.
JumpyDragom ‘mommy’ brain is the least of Harry’s concerns, how may physical AND psychic traumas has his brain been exposed to? He may heal physically completely unlike a normal mortal, but Shaggy isn’t ever going away. Ever.
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When Harry plays D & D he plays as over muscled barbarians.
JumpyDragom ‘mommy’ brain is the least of Harry’s concerns, how may physical AND psychic traumas has his brain been exposed to? He may heal physically completely unlike a normal mortal, but Shaggy isn’t ever going away. Ever.
Nope, Harry saw him without his little loin cloth and he weren't a pretty sight... What Harry needs to do now is lure Shaggy to Demonreach knowing what he knows now, Alfred will be happy to accommodate him, but the vision will never leave Harry's head.
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What Shaggy REALLY REALLY wants is Morgan, the one that got away. My theory is that Shaggy was the same Naagloshi who Morgan lured to the A Bomb site, and it took Shaggy more than 50 years to pull himself together. Shaggy has A grudge only satisfied by absorbing Morgan.
So to get Shaggy, Harry in Mirror, Mirror needs to bring Mirror Morgan over as bait. The events of Grave Peril took place years after the A Bomb incident, so Mirror Morgan also nuked Shaggy, and would thus make the perfect bait to get him to Demonreach.
Simple really.
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Stars and stones....this topic has taken a curveball into the parallel universe haha
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No, not missing the point, I believe you are.
I definitely got the reference and that it was a just a reference. You didn't.
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I definitely got the reference and that it was a just a reference. You didn't.
What about a wizard burning down a forest? Yeah I got it, but you gotta understand the history.. You don't.
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Treebeard says "a wizard should know better." That's the reference. It's a quote. You see Treebeard said "a wizard should know better. JumpyDragon said "Harry should have known better." Harry is a wizard.
What history is it that I don't understand that you do and how does it have any relevance? Is no one allowed to make LotR references when talking about the DF? Somebody better tell Harry.
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Treebeard says "a wizard should know better." That's the reference. It's a quote. You see Treebeard said "a wizard should know better. JumpyDragon said "Harry should have known better." Harry is a wizard.
What history is it that I don't understand that you do and how does it have any relevance? Is no one allowed to make LotR references when talking about the DF? Somebody better tell Harry.
Harry is a mere human, a wizard, yes, but in the end, human, humans make mistakes. So is it Harry, as a human should know better? Or a wizard of limited experience, with experience, wisdom comes eventually, I disagree as far as Harry avoiding introspection, he is constantly contemplating his navel, if he didn't he would never have gotten any sort of handle on the Winter Mantel. He was able to resist the Shadow of Lasciel and in the end change the Shadow to Lash because he never wished to be a dominating power, thus he rejected the coin.. That is why in the end she sacrificed herself for him.
In contrast...
The wizards of LotR are not human, they are not even elves, they are of the Valinorean race sent to Middle-earth to contest the will of Sauron. The quote from Treebeard was about Saruman the White, he saught to become a power onto himself, some say he was of the Elder race, seduced to evil in the first age when he became a servant of a greater Power, Morgoth of Angband. When Treebeard said that quote, Saruman had burned down a great deal of Fanghorn Forest and had gathered Orcs about him to gain power, he himself lusted for the Ring.. Treebeard was right, he should have known better.
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There's this thing humans do where they see something that reminds them of a movie quote, so they share it with people who are likely to have seen that movie and remember the quote. It's not really anymore complicated than that. It's not some great statement about geopolitics or the meaning of life.
Harry does and did avoid asking important questions, and introspection is part and parcel of that, except where it comes to blaming himself for things that aren't his fault. One of the big complaints about PT has been his lack of questioning. He does avoid introspection a whole lot less than he did in the earlier books. It's character growth, which I think is appropriate for a story spanning 15 years.
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Harry does and did avoid asking important questions, and introspection is part and parcel of that, except where it comes to blaming himself for things that aren't his fault. One of the big complaints about PT has been his lack of questioning. He does avoid introspection a whole lot less than he did in the earlier books. It's character growth, which I think is appropriate for a story spanning 15 years.
Yes, for his lack of questioning as to why Thomas suddenly was assassinating someone. That has nothing to do with his introspection. However when he summons Molly he questions his attempt at suicide and his asking her to aid him. He didn't avoid it. However the way Peace Talks shaped up it was about helping Thomas to escape and out of harm's way, not motives behind it or who set him up if he was set up. That is for another book because I doubt he will get into it in Battleground. That might be what Mirror Mirror is all about.. Harry does mention that Merlin broke one of the Laws of Magic, time travel to build Demonreach. My thought is the so called "British prisoner" is Merlin, he punished himself for breaking the law. It would also fit with the mythology of him "sleeping." Harry might do time travel to try and reconstruct what happened to Thomas and who is behind it to set it right if he can.
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Yes, for his lack of questioning as to why Thomas suddenly was assassinating someone. That has nothing to do with his introspection. However when he summons Molly he questions his attempt at suicide and his asking her to aid him. He didn't avoid it. However the way Peace Talks shaped up it was about helping Thomas to escape and out of harm's way, not motives behind it or who set him up if he was set up. That is for another book because I doubt he will get into it in Battleground. That might be what Mirror Mirror is all about.. Harry does mention that Merlin broke one of the Laws of Magic, time travel to build Demonreach. My thought is the so called "British prisoner" is Merlin, he punished himself for breaking the law. It would also fit with the mythology of him "sleeping." Harry might do time travel to try and reconstruct what happened to Thomas and who is behind it to set it right if he can.
Except the laws did not exist yet when the merlin created demonreach.
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Except the laws did not exist yet when the merlin created demonreach.
They didn't? There has to be a reason why Harry mentions that Merlin broke the Laws creating it.
page326-327 Peace Talks
Demonreach had been constructed by Merlin. TheMerlin, the original, Camelot and Excaliber, thatMerlin. He'd broken at least one of the Laws of Magic to build the place, romping through time in order to lay a foundation strong enough to bear the supernatural weight of the prison.
So either Harry looking back thinks if Merlin did it now he'd be breaking the Laws of Magic.. Or the Laws of Magic did exist back then and Merlin broke them to build Demonreach.. Or Merlin realized there was a problem with what he did so he created the Laws of Magic, that too is possible. However by the time Camelot was around it is very possible that the Laws of Magic existed because there were wizards running around then.. Just because Merlin went back in time to create the island before the Laws existed, it doesn't mean they didn't exist in Merlin's time. Will have to check, but was Merlin the first "Merlin" of the Senior Council or not? Then he'd have had a lot to do with writing those Laws.
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Harry says in either TC or Changes that the original Merlin wrote the Laws of Magic.
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My thought is the so called "British prisoner" is Merlin, he punished himself for breaking the law. It would also fit with the mythology of him "sleeping." Harry might do time travel to try and reconstruct what happened to Thomas and who is behind it to set it right if he can.
I'm hardcore wishing that this is true. If it is, it would be so cool (and fitting) if Harry released Demonreach during the BAT and the original Merlin fought by his side.
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I'm hardcore wishing that this is true. If it is, it would be so cool (and fitting) if Harry released Demonreach during the BAT and the original Merlin fought by his side.
I doubt that Harry would release all of Demonreach, some of the critters locked up there remain pretty bad.
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The Dresden Files is not “Born Free” for terrifying eldrich monsters.
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I doubt that Harry would release all of Demonreach, some of the critters locked up there remain pretty bad.
All of demonreach? Even for Harry’s most idiotic plans that would be overkill. Why not just one, promise to become its high priest and start human sacrifices? A big temple on demonreach and the sacrificial corpses on the trees? A cult with a holy island fortress?
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Hey everyone, I just wanted to warn people I was on good reads reading some battle ground early book reviews and most are spoiler free but I read one and got seriously spoiled for battle ground, it had two major spoilers, it's my own fault but I just wanted to warn others, one of the spoilers really annoyed me.
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All of demonreach? Even for Harry’s most idiotic plans that would be overkill. Why not just one, promise to become its high priest and start human sacrifices? A big temple on demonreach and the sacrificial corpses on the trees? A cult with a holy island fortress?
It would fit due to looking at options and what would make something go from bad to worse? Maybe Harry would have no choice but too release all of Demonreach. Maybe he makes a pact with all the baddies to fight alongside him and Merlin and Alfred helps him reign them all in. Harry could very well push the self destruct button clearly labeled "DON'T PUSH". It's wishful thinking, Ill admit it. With it being a BAT, it would make a scenario go from bad to worse.