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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on September 07, 2020, 10:13:54 AM

Title: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Yuillegan on September 07, 2020, 10:13:54 AM
In Bombshells, I noticed that Lea compared Molly's ability to derail things to Dresden's. She likens it to elemental chaos.

Now the only other time I have heard that in the series was in Peace Talks when Harry talks of the Outside.

It could be just random. A turn of phrase, of metaphor. But I think it was a hint.

Dresden isn't from order, he is from chaos. He is a destroyer.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on September 07, 2020, 08:44:42 PM
Watch the trailer for Battle Ground.  Mab tells Harry,
(click to show/hide)

I guess it's how you use that destructive ability that's important.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 07, 2020, 09:03:28 PM
Harry has always been a weapon, it depends on how he is used. Harry has made it clear how he won’t be used.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Yuillegan on September 07, 2020, 10:24:42 PM
Watch the trailer for Battle Ground.  Mab tells Harry,
(click to show/hide)

I guess it's how you use that destructive ability that's important.
Yeah just did, further confirmation to me that Jim is laying breadcrumbs. I think we might learn what Morgan was referring to, at least partly, when he called Harry a Destroyer.

Jim did once say that Mab was keeping her enemies close when discussing how the Queens felt about Harry. That says a lot to me.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 08, 2020, 03:28:13 PM
Harry is an unravelling on two legs, he laughs at prophecy, eats death curses for breakfast and defecates upon entropy curses. He is a destroyer and force of chaos in that he can avoid destiny and create new futures where none exist.

Example on Demonreach where he asks the GateKeeper to look at him again after he has stepped on the island, Harry has demolished the pre-ordained future replacing it with new previously unforeseen options my marrying Alfred. Clairvoyants and prophets must really, really hate Harry even if they haven’t met him yet  (which is what normally happens) because he is a blind spot, all they can see is general details of war and bloodshed, no specifics. Chandler’s bonhomie to Harry is therefore forced and phoney.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 08, 2020, 03:40:50 PM
Actually that speaks to the limitations of the eye. Harry has encountered all manor of soothsayer and none ever had an issue except that one time.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 08, 2020, 05:21:46 PM
Not really, it’s the specifics that they have problems with around Harry, clearly they see him at the centre of a war (which is coming irrespective of Harry) but it’s his role in it which they can’t determine, and his role is pivotal as to the outcome.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 08, 2020, 05:32:00 PM
Which is pretty specific really, I wouldn't expect them to know the outcome. Too many choices leveraging against each other.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Bad Alias on September 11, 2020, 07:02:33 PM
Actually that speaks to the limitations of the eye. Harry has encountered all manor of soothsayer and none ever had an issue except that one time.
In DM, it was prophesied that either Harry would die, or everyone would. That's not what happened.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 11, 2020, 07:56:53 PM
Harry is an unravelling on two legs, he laughs at prophecy, eats death curses for breakfast and defecates upon entropy curses. He is a destroyer and force of chaos in that he can avoid destiny and create new futures where none exist.

Example on Demonreach where he asks the GateKeeper to look at him again after he has stepped on the island, Harry has demolished the pre-ordained future replacing it with new previously unforeseen options my marrying Alfred. Clairvoyants and prophets must really, really hate Harry even if they haven’t met him yet  (which is what normally happens) because he is a blind spot, all they can see is general details of war and bloodshed, no specifics. Chandler’s bonhomie to Harry is therefore forced and phoney.

I don't think what went down between Rashid and Harry are exactly as you say.  When Rashid first scanned Harry, he had no clue of the connection Harry had made with the island.  What he saw was Harry verses the Senior Council and it was a battle Harry was going to lose.  There was nothing about Harry when he lacked a physical connect for him to see otherwise.  When Harry stood upon the island, the connection became apparent and it was a game changer.  How much of a one still remained unclear, Harry at that point had little knowledge of the implications of what he had done. If he had, the battle with Shaggy Skinwalker would have gone a lot different I think.  In that year after
Cold Days Harry has learned a lot about the extent of his power on the island.

Quote
DM, it was prophesied that either Harry would die, or everyone would. That's not what happened.

That wasn't all of it though, The first part of it was if Harry sought the Shroud, he'd surely die.. That is why the Knights were trying to protect him, why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry.  However
the second part of the prophesy was, "If you do not, they all die.  And the city with it." 

Nic had used the Shroud to place a curse on Harry, which would have resulted in a massive epidemic in the city once he got hold of it.  However Shiro took Harry's place, so Shiro got sick, as long as Nic had the Shroud after that the plague would continue to grow, but once Harry got it back from him, it would end.  The only reason that there were no deaths beyond Shiro from the plague, is because Shiro took Harry's place, screwing up the curse.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: ClintACK on September 11, 2020, 08:14:55 PM
In DM, it was prophesied that either Harry would die, or everyone would. That's not what happened.

Harry dying didn't *happen*, but it did become a thing that was unavoidably going to happen until Shiro invoked his once-a-lifetime-substitute-sacrifice super power to die in Harry's place.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 11, 2020, 08:18:28 PM
Harry dying didn't *happen*, but it did become a thing that was unavoidably going to happen until Shiro invoked his once-a-lifetime-substitute-sacrifice super power to die in Harry's place.

Harry still had to get the Shroud back though, if he didn't the plague would continue to grow, that was what part two of the prophesy was about that apparently even the Knights didn't realize until they found Shiro.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: vultur on September 11, 2020, 08:31:58 PM
I've wondered about that part of DM for a long time. How unavoidable is the curse really? Harry's wards block its effects temporarily. And it looks kind of like the entropy curse in BR.

Certainly Harry at that time couldn't deal with it long-term without Shiro dying in his place.

But could a more skilled wizard?

There must be some limit or Nic would just curse all the Archangels to die.

OK that's pretty extreme, but do you really think it would work on Mab or Titania, or even Molly or the Merlin or Eb?
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: ClintACK on September 11, 2020, 10:45:16 PM
There must be some limit or Nic would just curse all the Archangels to die.

Or the Knights. Or their families.

Yeah. I'd guess there's a complicated series of conditions -- like the fact that Harry involved himself in fighting Nic's plot, even after being warned off by everyone on both sides. Perhaps the partially-waylaid prophecy was necessary to maneuver Harry into the conditions that would make him a legitimate target of the Curse.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: vultur on September 12, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
Or the Knights. Or their families.

Well, I was sort of thinking that using it on the Knights might not benefit him that much since they'd be replaced. But Shiro was awesome enough that, yeah, hitting him with it would clearly have been a win for the Denarians.

But yeah, I'd think the angelic protection would have to protect the Knights' families - which means there's an upper limit on what it can do.

I'm wondering if it's actually "just" a really strong entropy curse and the idea that it's unavoidable is a product of the Knights' relatively limited knowledge base (like the idea that there's no way to get a Shadow out of your head other than accepting the Coin or giving up magic). If Harry as of DM can build wards that keep it out of his apartment, then a really skilled wizard might be able to redirect it (like Harry did with the Outsider-powered entropy curse in BR).
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Snark Knight on September 12, 2020, 03:05:48 AM
I'm wondering if it's actually "just" a really strong entropy curse and the idea that it's unavoidable is a product of the Knights' relatively limited knowledge base (like the idea that there's no way to get a Shadow out of your head other than accepting the Coin or giving up magic). If Harry as of DM can build wards that keep it out of his apartment, then a really skilled wizard might be able to redirect it (like Harry did with the Outsider-powered entropy curse in BR).

I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

How dangerous an entropy curse is seems to be a product both of the power of the sponsor and how competent the mortal invoking it is, based on Harry's description of the difference in the BR curse when Trixie was engineering stupid pratfall deaths vs someone competent 'driving'. I think the Denarians would be right at the top of the efficiency ladder, if the Fallen isn't outright taking care of that for them once a target is named. But in terms of the sponsor, a Walker is probably a bigger engine than a Fallen other than Lucifer himself.

Now, Harry probably also had an advantage in redirecting the Walker's curse to kill that black court minion by way of being starborn, but he also seemed confident in his ability to prepare a reflection spell with advance warning even though he didn't know about his advantage. Now that he has soulfire, the same for the Fallen's curse is probably feasible.

The Knights just seem to probably be overestimating it from dangerous to autokill because they don't know any countermagic other than to jump on the grenade.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 12, 2020, 04:49:29 AM
Quote
I'm wondering if it's actually "just" a really strong entropy curse and the idea that it's unavoidable is a product of the Knights' relatively limited knowledge base (like the idea that there's no way to get a Shadow out of your head other than accepting the Coin or giving up magic). If Harry as of DM can build wards that keep it out of his apartment, then a really skilled wizard might be able to redirect it (like Harry did with the Outsider-powered entropy curse in BR).

As far as the Shadow in one's head goes, it was as stated, accept the coin or give up magic, though I doubt that the last would have done the trick.  Harry, instead changed the Shadow, not intentionally but merely by who he is.  It wasn't just by giving Lasciel's Shadow a different name, it was the how and why he did things, his total stubbornness and insistence on doing things his way.  It had never been done before and it is a big deal, that is why he was rewarded with Soul Fire.  Perhaps it could only have been done by a star born?
Quote
I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud.  The Knights only had the first part of the prophesy, Shiro taking Harry's place saved Harry, but to save everyone else, Harry had to get the Shroud away from Nic because he was using it to eventually give everyone the plague.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: vultur on September 12, 2020, 12:45:40 PM
I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

That's a good point. I was thinking that it had to be more powerful because Harry could redirect the one in BR, but maybe not.

I was figuring it kept trying because it hadn't killed anyone, but if redirected it would be 'used up' since it actually killed someone (even though it was the wrong victim). But yeah, maybe there's more to it than that... especially since, as you point out, Nic is way more competent than the cult in BR.

Quote
The Knights just seem to probably be overestimating it from dangerous to autokill because they don't know any countermagic other than to jump on the grenade.

Yeah that's kind of what I was wondering.

The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud. 

Oh sure, with the Shroud it's a whole other issue. I'm talking about when Shiro says the Noose allows Nicodemus to mandate "a death that cannot be avoided". There's just got to be some way to avoid/block/flat out resist it if you're powerful enough.

Now maybe it only works on mortals, keeping him from killing Uriel with it or anything totally ridiculous like that.

But the fact that Harry's wards can block it does mean it's limited; somebody good enough ought to be able to outright counterspell it, even if that level's above any current mortal wizard. (I'm sure Odin or Mab could.)
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 12, 2020, 02:50:36 PM
Quote
Oh sure, with the Shroud it's a whole other issue. I'm talking about when Shiro says the Noose allows Nicodemus to mandate "a death that cannot be avoided". There's just got to be some way to avoid/block/flat out resist it if you're powerful enough.

I don't think that is what he meant, I think he merely meant that the noose keeps Nic alive, it doesn't have anything to do with mandating power over others.  That is why when he "surrendered" himself to Murphy, he removed the noose, he then could be killed.  That was too much temptation for her to render "justice" as she saw it, so she attempted to execute him, thus breaking the Sword.  Harry is the only one who has actually gotten close enough to him to physically grab the noose and in Small Favor came very close to killing him.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Avernite on September 12, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
I'm actually thinking the Noose may be a kind of life-battery; twisted, but still a battery.

So I'm thinking the curse may be a kind of 'life for a life' and the only way to abuse it is to find someone to take the life off to extend your own. Nic has found the way to use it to steal rather than trade lives, and the Knights/Harry have no idea how to counter it, but maybe understanding it steals life rather than cursing could help gain insight?
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 12, 2020, 04:07:57 PM
I'm actually thinking the Noose may be a kind of life-battery; twisted, but still a battery.

So I'm thinking the curse may be a kind of 'life for a life' and the only way to abuse it is to find someone to take the life off to extend your own. Nic has found the way to use it to steal rather than trade lives, and the Knights/Harry have no idea how to counter it, but maybe understanding it steals life rather than cursing could help gain insight?

I've always thought that the noose had something to do with Judas.  Though I realize that that has been refuted, but I am not sure if it was Jim or not.  The noose itself can mean either an execution or suicide, but why?  That is the question, did Nic accept the coin to save himself from execution?  Or did he do something so terrible that he wanted to kill himself?  Or perhaps it does have something to do with Judas, that it was actually Nic who betrayed Jesus, so the noose that Judas hung himself with is around Nic's neck because he tricked Judas into thinking he was the blame?  I know it isn't even high grade tin foil..
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: ClintACK on September 12, 2020, 04:45:58 PM
The noose's connection to Judas has been refuted? I missed that. I thought that was explicitly confirmed in the text in Death Masks, although Michael just says that they believe it to be the one Judas used.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 12, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
The noose's connection to Judas has been refuted? I missed that. I thought that was explicitly confirmed in the text in Death Masks, although Michael just says that they believe it to be the one Judas used.

I remember reading that here that it wasn't years ago, so I thought it was.  However the connection is either too obvious to be true, or it is true and we have yet to get the full story.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Snark Knight on September 12, 2020, 10:49:59 PM
The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud.  The Knights only had the first part of the prophesy, Shiro taking Harry's place saved Harry, but to save everyone else, Harry had to get the Shroud away from Nic because he was using it to eventually give everyone the plague.

The plague curse is different from the Barrabus curse. The entropy curse tried to drop a live electrical wire on Harry before he and Susan got behind the wards.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 12, 2020, 11:18:30 PM
The plague curse is different from the Barrabus curse. The entropy curse tried to drop a live electrical wire on Harry before he and Susan got behind the wards.

 Yeah, but that was all about stopping Harry, because only he could get the Shroud.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: vultur on September 12, 2020, 11:43:46 PM
Or perhaps it does have something to do with Judas, that it was actually Nic who betrayed Jesus, so the noose that Judas hung himself with is around Nic's neck because he tricked Judas into thinking he was the blame?  I know it isn't even high grade tin foil..

I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: ClintACK on September 13, 2020, 01:13:52 PM
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.

Yeah. Victory-of-the-People Great-Lion doesn't much sound like a real name. But there is a Nicodemus in the Gospel of John who helps Joseph of Arimathea with Jesus's burial. So there's a Nicodemus who helped use the Shroud to wrap Jesus and was there with the guy who caught Jesus's blood in the Grail, and so on...
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Avernite on September 13, 2020, 04:56:15 PM
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.
Didn't the Archive describe real details of his life? Or was that only Tessa?
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 13, 2020, 05:08:35 PM
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.

Yeah, that has been my guess about him from the first..  As I said, I also remember reading here that he isn't, but it has been so long ago I cannot remember if that was a WOJ or not.
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 13, 2020, 06:15:17 PM
I think he's doubting Thomas, who often gets confabulated with Judas. No particular reason that I can recall atm🤔
Title: Re: Elemental Chaos
Post by: Mira on September 13, 2020, 06:51:52 PM
I think he's doubting Thomas, who often gets confabulated with Judas. No particular reason that I can recall atm🤔

  I kind of like my tin hat theory, that Nic betrayed Jesus, then tricked Judas into thinking he was the blame driving him to hang himself.  As a reward he wears that noose which grants him everlasting life.

Just rereading the passage, the noose was used by Judas, but Nic isn't Judas. But as long as he wears it he has everlasting life.  "The noose allows Nicidemus to mandate a death that cannot be avoided."   Barabbus was chosen by the Jews to free, though it was Jesus that Pilate wanted to free.
Nic aimed the curse at Harry, but Shiro elected to take his place instead.  However Nic still wanted Harry dead, so he threw an entropy curse at him