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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on August 26, 2020, 06:35:50 PM

Title: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 26, 2020, 06:35:50 PM

  I decided to reread the micro fiction story that are literally Morgan's last words, or rather a last message. Now we know what his dying words were to Harry, that he more or less regretted what he had put him through the last few years. 

Anyway, the first thing he says is he hadn't written in his journal in decades, or since he was in his seventies.  However as he is bleeding out he feels he has to get his thoughts about Harry on paper, on the record for Luccio or whoever to read.

1] He makes a promise to Margaret to protect Harry.  When and why did he make this promise? Had
he been in on the star born bit from the beginning?  Or was he just making a promise to a dear friend to keep her child safe? 

Then the next paragraph or so gets interesting;
Quote

I tracked him and his father until the time of Malcolm’s death. To this day, I’m not sure who killed him. I suppose it’s possible that Malcolm’s death was natural, but given this child’s ongoing misfortune it seems clear to me that he has been marked with an Adversary from the moment of his birth.

Malcolm died while I was on mission elsewhere. I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically. There was no trace of him, and I searched for years.

That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.

Malcolm was marked with a Adversary?  Not by, but with, a Adversary.  Just a type O?
If it was a type O then Malcolm was marked for murder by the Adversary.  But if it wasn't a type O
it implies that Malcolm was working with an Adversary, and thus marked for death along with someone else. Holy crap, we've always been told that Malcolm was an extraordinary good man, "as good a soul, as any I've ever seen." said Eb. Then Morgan more or less blows his death off, "I suppose it could have been natural."  But given what he just said, you would have thought he'd have looked into Malcolm's death a little more closely.  Or at least shared this info with Harry, so he'd look into it.  I know many here have wondered why Harry never looked into his father's death, but except for the hint from Chauncy that it was otherwise, he thought it was natural.  At least it could have been grist for the wheel, because it is pretty important if Malcolm was indeed working with an Adversary.

Timing is everything, who arranged for Morgan to be away on a mission when Malcolm died, and young Harry dropped off the radar screen?  Morgan says he arrived on scene less then ten hours later and Harry had already disappeared.  Really?  No records anywhere of what happened to six year old Harry?  What is weird about that is as a Warden of the White Council, you'd think that Morgan would know some pull to get access to those records.  Someone on the Senior Council or even Luccio would have political connections of that kind. 

So who could have pulled off that kind of erasure?  We know that someone else who had promised Margaret to keep her baby safe, Lea, visited Harry from time to time when he was in the orphanage.
She knew of Margaret's mistrust of the Council, so perhaps thought it best that no one connected with them knew of Harry's whereabouts.  Under this veil we know from Harry himself, except for being very unhappy as the odd kid out, until he was adopted when he talent appeared his next six years in state custody was pretty ordinary.  As in, none of the Nemesis type influence that Morgan feared.  So perhaps Lea was successful there, but then she failed and somehow Justin managed to track and get his mitts on Harry..  Unless Justin was the Adversary that was working with Malcolm, murdered Malcolm, then managed to keep track of Harry in spite of Lea's best efforts.  Another
possibility is Eb is the one that "disappeared" young Harry in the system.  He sort of confessed or used the excuse that it was best that Harry not be brought up by him given what he is.  But if that was his plan, he failed big time because in the end Justin did get a hold of Harry to use him for his own purpose.

When Harry kills Justin finally in a duel, that Morgan is a bit doubtful about, the assumption is Harry is infected or is still being used by the Enemy.  Though Morgan admits that the Enemy is with in the Council itself and set him up and he has no choice but to run to Harry for help.  We know how that story went.

He closes with;
Quote
Perhaps I have been too hard on him. Perhaps I really have become paranoid and mad. Perhaps I have wronged a good man. But there is too much at stake to take that chance. The thought of allowing a Destroyer to be birthed among us when I could have stopped it is too heavy to bear.

Yeah, Morgan was paranoid, and because he failed to look into the circumstances surrounding Malcolm's death, he did hound and wrong a good man.   
 
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: morriswalters on August 26, 2020, 07:12:26 PM
Subject and predicate. 
Quote
but given this child’s ongoing misfortune it seems clear to me that he has been marked with an Adversary from the moment of his birth.
The phrasing could have been made clearer but it is what it is. And of course the Adversary in this case is HWWB. This is established in Storm Front.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 26, 2020, 07:33:50 PM
Subject and predicate.  The phrasing could have been made clearer but it is what it is. And of course the Adversary in this case is HWWB. This is established in Storm Front.

The phrasing is ambiguous at best, I suppose it’s possible that Malcolm’s death was natural, but given this child’s ongoing misfortune it seems clear to me that he has been marked with an Adversary from the moment of his birth. 
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on August 26, 2020, 10:54:29 PM
Yeah, I think the implication is that Morgan thinks that Malcolm's death is the result of Harry being "marked with an Adversary".

IE, there's nothing obviously unnatural about Malcolm's death by itself, but all the other things going on around Harry automatically makes it suspicious.

At least that's how I read it.

--

I'm not really sure exactly what "marked with an Adversary" means. I don't think it was HWWBehind, since Harry was marked by HWWBehind in their encounter when Justin summoned him - so not "from the moment of his birth".

And 'an Adversary', capitalized, is also interesting. Is there more than one Nemesis? Or does Morgan mean Nemesis as one of several agents of the Circle/Outside/whatever? Or something else?
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: morriswalters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:40 AM
Who knows what Jim is up to.  But Harry was marked for something prior to conception.  Jim's been banging the drum on this since the series started. That's the whole point of the Morgan microfiction.  Harry was bred like a horse.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 27, 2020, 03:51:07 AM
Who knows what Jim is up to.  But Harry was marked for something prior to conception.  Jim's been banging the drum on this since the series started. That's the whole point of the Morgan microfiction.  Harry was bred like a horse.

Well, yeah, Harry is a star born..  Question is who disappeared him for the six years between Malcolm's death and his adoption by Justin?  And why was he disappeared?  Since Harry was in the foster care system there should have been records.  Yes, these things are kept confidential but still it shouldn't be beyond the skill of a nosy wizard to find and track down.  You ever get the feeling that Morgan was never the brightest penny in the sack?  Loyal? Yes.  Duty bound? Yes. But clever? Not so much.. Maybe that is what made him a good executioner?  He never asked questions.

Just a thought, but if Harry was marked from birth, perhaps Morgan was referring to someone else also marked from birth.. If Harry is the star born, maybe Elaine is the one marked as an Adversary?   
Quote
IE, there's nothing obviously unnatural about Malcolm's death by itself, but all the other things going on around Harry automatically makes it suspicious.
Unless you take Chauncy at his word, he claimed that Malcolm as well as Margaret were murdered.. Harry couldn't get any further with that without giving up another one of his names.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on August 27, 2020, 05:46:55 AM
You ever get the feeling that Morgan was never the brightest penny in the sack? 

Yeah, he certainly seemed that way. TC and this piece give him more depth than what Harry originally saw, but some of his actions still seem pretty questionable at the very least (especially in Summer Knight).

Quote
Unless you take Chauncy at his word, he claimed that Malcolm as well as Margaret were murdered.. Harry couldn't get any further with that without giving up another one of his names.

Oh, I agree Malcolm's death wasn't natural; what I meant is that it looked natural (superficially), and Morgan only thought it wasn't because so many other things were going on around Harry (i.e. not because the cause of death was itself obviously unnatural).

That's why Morgan couldn't really be sure.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 27, 2020, 01:14:06 PM
Quote
Oh, I agree Malcolm's death wasn't natural; what I meant is that it looked natural (superficially), and Morgan only thought it wasn't because so many other things were going on around Harry (i.e. not because the cause of death was itself obviously unnatural).

That's why Morgan couldn't really be sure.

And yet when Malcolm and Margaret's six year old child completely disappears from the radar screen, Morgan fails to investigate the death that led to that disappearance?  The first step in finding out what happened to the child is figuring out who or what was behind the death of the father. 

Then when Harry does surface again, up until he himself became a suspect, Morgan busied himself trying to take Harry out at every turn because he had bought into the theory that the Enemy had gotten to him at some point.  It was only when the finger was pointed at him and he was at the point of death does he admit he might have been paranoid and perhaps wronged a good man.

As I said, Morgan was good at what he did as far as that went, but he was never the brightest penny. So it was easy to manipulate him to bird dog Harry in the hope maybe that he'd succeed especially while Harry was under the Doom to lop his head off and never ask questions. No, there are some big cats at work in the life of Harry Dresden, Morgan was a less than effective paw in keeping that mouse in check.

So who were/are the big cats?  The Winter Court? The Black Court? The Senior Council of the White Court? Eb? Outsiders?  Someone wanted to prevent this star child from maturing.. Could the same be said of Elaine?  We know nothing of her background.

Someone didn't want Harry observed when he was a very young child until his talent showed.  That finger points to Eb, by his own admission in Peace Talks.  However does Eb have that kind of power to wipe Harry from official records?  Maybe, but how is it he failed so badly when Harry's talent did surface to prevent a evil man like Justin to get a hold of him for his own gains?  Who helped Justin to locate not just Harry, but Elaine as well? Do we really believe they were there only children of talent that surfaced in the foster care system?  Why did he chose them especially?
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: BrainFireBob on August 27, 2020, 05:39:30 PM
I rather think Morgan was underestimated.

Morgan was seen as a shotgun, or attack dog- dangerous at KABOOM magic, but not a free-thinking individual. People forgot he had his own mind.

Morgan might be the White Council's public executioner- Eb, of course, being their assassin- but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a moral code.

I rather think this, combined with Turn Coat, points to someone trying to setup Morgan to execute Harry without understanding that Morgan's rigidity wasn't mental, it was moral- he would literally be damned before betraying his principles and loyalties. Morgan was the one ultimately responsible for the Doom being revoked. At the end, he concluded Harry was no warlock but was stupidly reckless at times (which Harry would probably concede)- which means instead of it being a settled question in his mind (as we were given the impression) it was a question he was still personally considering. Morgan let them down by not being what is called in DnD a "murder hobo."

Which points to whoever the enemy is in the White Council, they don't have a lot of experience with/exposure to the Wardens, or they'd not have under-rated Morgan that way. That's the clear takeaway to me. That, or their exposure to the Wardens predates Morgan being a prominent personality. What I can't decide is if this makes Langtry more or less likely to be Black Council. I lean toward less, and that Langtry is the pillar on Harry's "side" on a larger scale than Harry is aware of- with Harry and Langtry both finding this out with corresponding angst later. Phrased differently: Langtry is the "real" problem for the Black Council, and Harry keeps coming out of his self-imposed hermitage (in WC terms) to interfere and generally be in the way.

Regarding Morgan himself: I rather think he was more clever than people realized, but that he was on a mushroom diet. I can see his report on the Naagloshii being "Encountered Naagloshii. Will not be a further problem for the Council" with no words about how, what, why, or that he actually killed the thing.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: ClintACK on August 27, 2020, 08:45:16 PM
Morgan busied himself trying to take Harry out at every turn ...

Did he? That's certainly Harry's perception, but he's an unreliable narrator. Look at what Morgan actually does? He pokes and prods and goads Harry to see if he can get him to start fight using his magic in anger.

It's a test. Morgan soulgazed Harry and knows that his first-law violation (killing Justin) gave him a magical anger management problem. If Harry isn't careful about it, his anger problem will grow and he really will be a warlock. And Morgan means to be there when it happens, because he's seen what happens next and he'll blame himself for all the victims he couldn't save.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 27, 2020, 10:05:14 PM
Quote

It's a test. Morgan soulgazed Harry and knows that his first-law violation (killing Justin) gave him a magical anger management problem. If Harry isn't careful about it, his anger problem will grow and he really will be a warlock. And Morgan means to be there when it happens, because he's seen what happens next and he'll blame himself for all the victims he couldn't save.

There is no evidence that Morgan ever soul gazed Harry.  Eb soul gazed Harry, he says that in Blood Rites, he is also the one who spoke up for him at his trial, not unlike Harry did for Molly.  Harry based his defense for the most part on his soul gaze, I imagine Eb did the same.  If Morgan had soul gazed Harry and found what you say, I doubt that Harry would still have his head.  In addition, lets not forget that a soul gaze goes both ways, if he had, then Harry would have understood Morgan better.  By Morgan's own admission he was more paranoid than anything and may have wronged a good man, no, if Morgan had soul gazed Harry he wouldn't have pursued him like he did.

No, I don't think Morgan was underestimated..  He may gave been moral, but at the same time he wasn't all that clever.  Morgan was never a thinker.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 27, 2020, 10:09:22 PM
Morgan wasn’t an investigator, he was an enforcer, when he needed an investigator, he went to Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: TheCuriousFan on August 27, 2020, 10:40:34 PM
Chasing down wardens was his main job so he has a fair amount of practice at investigations.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 27, 2020, 11:56:51 PM
The mad Warlocks were hardly subtle, neither was Morgan.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on August 28, 2020, 02:04:28 AM
I rather think this, combined with Turn Coat, points to someone trying to setup Morgan to execute Harry without understanding that Morgan's rigidity wasn't mental, it was moral- he would literally be damned before betraying his principles and loyalties. Morgan was the one ultimately responsible for the Doom being revoked. At the end, he concluded Harry was no warlock but was stupidly reckless at times (which Harry would probably concede)

I think this is true, but isn't necessarily incompatible with Morgan being not-the-brightest.

Or, well, I think more accurately he wasn't good at thinking outside the box. Morgan wasn't dumb, but he was a straight-line A-to-B thinker... like most of the older wizards, it seems.

Even Luccio must have a bit of this problem, or something like the Paranet would have been set up decades ago, dealing with pixies etc. would be standard Warden protocol, etc.

And he still did ignore Harry's warning about the Summer/Winter issue in SK; I don't think that's explainable as just testing Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 28, 2020, 03:08:34 AM
Quote

Or, well, I think more accurately he wasn't good at thinking outside the box. Morgan wasn't dumb, but he was a straight-line A-to-B thinker... like most of the older wizards, it seems.

  Morgan was a good soldier, that doesn't mean that he was stupid, he wasn't.  However neither was he clever, or rather he lacked imagination.  When you lack imagination, you cannot see the big picture.

Quote
Morgan wasn’t an investigator, he was an enforcer, when he needed an investigator, he went to Harry.

Yes, that is the point, an enforcer merely has to be a believer, he carries out orders, it doesn't require a whole lot of thinking.  An investigator is a odd combination, he has to have an imagination, but at the same time he must deal in facts.  They are what they are, no belief required, then he has to be able to think to make them add up, or not.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: ClintACK on August 29, 2020, 02:15:15 PM
And he still did ignore Harry's warning about the Summer/Winter issue in SK; I don't think that's explainable as just testing Harry.

That's a good point. I have no excuse for him there.

Re: not an investigator, I'm not sure we have any basis to judge that. He's one of the Council's top wardens, not a member of the Brute Squad. In Storm Front, his plan to hold on to Harry through the storm and see if that stopped the killing was a pretty good out-of-the-box plan. It only looked stupid to us because we knew Harry was telling the truth about being the next target.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 29, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
That's a good point. I have no excuse for him there.

Re: not an investigator, I'm not sure we have any basis to judge that. He's one of the Council's top wardens, not a member of the Brute Squad. In Storm Front, his plan to hold on to Harry through the storm and see if that stopped the killing was a pretty good out-of-the-box plan. It only looked stupid to us because we knew Harry was telling the truth about being the next target.

  However if Morgan had done what you say, all he would have accomplished would be witnessing innocent Harry's heart being ripped from his body since he was the next target if he didn't get to the house to break up the ritual before the storm broke out.  Either way Harry was dead, since if his heart wasn't torn our of his body, Morgan would assume he was guilty and lopped off his head. Yeah, great plan.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: ClintACK on August 29, 2020, 04:00:29 PM
You're looking at it from our (Harry's) perspective and with our knowledge. Yes, it would have gone horribly wrong, but Morgan had no reason to believe that. (Harry's claim that he was the next target came *after* he heard Morgan's plan, so it was a particularly convenient thing to say...)

Compare to Harry's clever plan in Proven Guilty -- the one that sends the Fetch right past all of the Carpenter residence's protections to whisk Molly off to Arctis Tor.

That's about as spectacularly wrong as a plan can go. It went that wrong because Harry didn't have enough information. Same with Morgan's plan in Storm Front. It was a good plan that would have gone spectacularly wrong because Morgan didn't have enough information.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 29, 2020, 04:17:23 PM
You're looking at it from our (Harry's) perspective and with our knowledge. Yes, it would have gone horribly wrong, but Morgan had no reason to believe that. (Harry's claim that he was the next target came *after* he heard Morgan's plan, so it was a particularly convenient thing to say...)

Compare to Harry's clever plan in Proven Guilty -- the one that sends the Fetch right past all of the Carpenter residence's protections to whisk Molly off to Arctis Tor.

That's about as spectacularly wrong as a plan can go. It went that wrong because Harry didn't have enough information. Same with Morgan's plan in Storm Front. It was a good plan that would have gone spectacularly wrong because Morgan didn't have enough information.

 Nobody is saying that Morgan is dumb, he is a good soldier, but he lacks imagination and curiosity.
And why would Morgan's plan have gone so wrong in Storm Front?  Because he couldn't imagine the larger picture, alternate causes for the murder.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: morriswalters on August 29, 2020, 05:20:32 PM
Compare to Harry's clever plan in Proven Guilty -- the one that sends the Fetch right past all of the Carpenter residence's protections to whisk Molly off to Arctis Tor.
The fetches didn't get sent past the defenses, Molly let them in.  The plan worked to perfection.  It just wasn't the perfection he was thinking about.  But Mab helped him out.

Side note.  The Morgan in Storm Front is not the Morgan in the microfiction.  He is a closely related Morgan from a parallel universe close to ours. ;)
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 29, 2020, 05:56:09 PM
The fetches didn't get sent past the defenses, Molly let them in.  The plan worked to perfection.  It just wasn't the perfection he was thinking about.  But Mab helped him out.

Side note.  The Morgan in Storm Front is not the Morgan in the microfiction.  He is a closely related Morgan from a parallel universe close to ours. ;)
???
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on August 30, 2020, 08:03:03 AM
Timing is everything, who arranged for Morgan to be away on a mission when Malcolm died, and young Harry dropped off the radar screen?  Morgan says he arrived on scene less then ten hours later and Harry had already disappeared.  Really?  No records anywhere of what happened to six year old Harry?  What is weird about that is as a Warden of the White Council, you'd think that Morgan would know some pull to get access to those records.  Someone on the Senior Council or even Luccio would have political connections of that kind. 

Of course, we don't have the information we need to figure this out, but I will try anyway.  Just because Luccio is the Captain of the Wardens; and she probably gave Morgan the orders which sent him away from Harry and his father, that doesn't mean it was her idea.  Captain Luccio could have been given a mission to accomplish by a Senior Council member, a mission that required someone with Morgan's knowledge and skill set.  That leaves us with an old problem, which Senior Council member of that time was a traitor?

We can probably eliminate Aleron La Fortier because he's dead.  Ebenezer wasn't a Senior Council member at that time and I doubt that when Eb was acting as the Blackstaff he would have ever needed to consult with Captain Luccio.  Cristos wasn't on the Senior Council then either.   If Arthur Langtry, Ancient Mai, LTW or Martha Liberty was and is a traitor, they all sure have had a lot of time to be doing traitorous things without accomplishing very much.  So I discount all of them as traitors.  That leaves The Gatekeeper and a Senior Council member we've only heard about, Simon Pietrovich. 

If it was the Gatekeeper, couldn't he just screw up the defenses at the Outer Gates by letting a bunch of nemefcted individuals get through or misdirect Winter's forces so the Outsiders could break through in a big way?  That leaves Simon.  I don't think Simon Pietrovich is dead.  Unlike Aleron La Fortier, I don't think we heard anything about his body being found.  My guess is that Simon is Cowl.  It would explain how Cowl knew that the wardens were nervous about Harry.  It's one thing to know about Harry.  A ton of people and not people have known about Harry, but to know about internal White Council gossip is another thing.

About whoever made Harry seemingly disappear from the face of the earth, Mira you mentioned Lea later in your post and she is the obvious suspect, but just to nail it down a bit better, remember that Jim has told us that Margaret LeFay didn't make the best deal she could have when she bargained with Lea to protect Harry.  Margaret probably didn't think to get protection for Malcolm Dresden because he wasn't part of the magical community.  Margaret's deal probably didn't preclude Lea from making a separate deal with Justin DuMorne and later making another deal with Harry.  Lea would have seen Justin as a good match to teach young Harry how to use his abilities and also calculated that she could live up to her deal with Margaret by eventually helping Harry to defeat Justin.  So I think Lea either killed Malcolm Dresden or looked the other way while Justin did.  Until Lea was forced to hand over her contract with Harry to Mab, I think she had gotten the better of Margaret, Justin and still had a long-term hold on Harry.

What I want to know is whether Luccio will ever show what Morgan wrote down to Harry.  Harry may need the clues in Warden Morgan's journal to figure out who the traitor is.  Also, LTW personally investigated Simon's fortress at Archangel.  Seeing as River Shoulders told Harry that LTW is near the end of his road, if Injun Joe learned anything interesting investigating the Red Court's attack on Simon's personal HQ, it's about the time he shares that knowledge with someone else, maybe Harry.  I'll be very interested in any conversations Harry and LTW have in Battle Ground.  Finally, after reading Morgan's final journal entry; assuming she did read it, Captain Luccio should also be putting pieces together and wondering about the unlikely coincidence of having to send Morgan on a mission, when he could have stopped young Harry from being disappeared.  However, if it was Simon who gave Luccio her marching orders, and she believes Simon really was killed by the Red Court, then to Luccio coincidence might make sense.   


   

   

Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 30, 2020, 10:36:43 AM
Quote
What I want to know is whether Luccio will ever show what Morgan wrote down to Harry.  Harry may need the clues in Warden Morgan's journal to figure out who the traitor is.  Also, LTW personally investigated Simon's fortress at Archangel.  Seeing as River Shoulders told Harry that LTW is near the end of his road, if Injun Joe learned anything interesting investigating the Red Court's attack on Simon's personal HQ, it's about the time he shares that knowledge with someone else, maybe Harry.  I'll be very interested in any conversations Harry and LTW have in Battle Ground.  Finally, after reading Morgan's final journal entry; assuming she did read it, Captain Luccio should also be putting pieces together and wondering about the unlikely coincidence of having to send Morgan on a mission, when he could have stopped young Harry from being disappeared.  However, if it was Simon who gave Luccio her marching orders, and she believes Simon really was killed by the Red Court, then to Luccio coincidence might make sense.   
Or Peabody was doing his thing with the ink even back when Harry was a child, but not on as great a scale as he was when Harry found him out.   He may have messed with Simon's mind or more likely Luccio's mind, the orders for the mission were given so Morgan would be elsewhere when Malcolm died.  La Fortier may have figured this out, thus he had to be eliminated, so did Luccio and Morgan.  So they were set up, her mind controlled to murder La Fortier, and Morgan to discover and take the fall for it.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 30, 2020, 10:48:24 AM
Pietrovich was a great friend of Eb’s, AND he was duMornes Master. Everyone you need to keep Harry ‘protected’, and away from Malcolm  except it didn’t.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 30, 2020, 01:07:13 PM
Pietrovich was a great friend of Eb’s, AND he was duMornes Master. Everyone you need to keep Harry ‘protected’, and away from Malcolm  except it didn’t.

Or see to it that young Harry is taken away from Malcolm by murdering him, disappeared for a few years, then snapped up when his talent emerges by a retired warden turned warlock to train as an enforcer.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 30, 2020, 01:33:05 PM
My guess is that Eb trusted Simon and Simon (wrongly) trusted DuMorne.

Margaret appears to have trusted Morgan to keep Harry away from Eb. Morgan and DuMorne would have been contemporaries as wardens, was there a particular beef between them?
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: morriswalters on August 30, 2020, 02:39:39 PM
???
It was sarcasm.  Jim has retconned Morgan.  The Morgan of the microfiction is Morgan version 2, the new and improved Morgan. It breaks things, particularly in terms of motivation.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 30, 2020, 07:00:14 PM
It was sarcasm.  Jim has retconned Morgan.  The Morgan of the microfiction is Morgan version 2, the new and improved Morgan. It breaks things, particularly in terms of motivation.

My  ??? was in the spirit of your sarcasm..  My first reaction to the microfiction was WTF?? ???
Especially in the light of his last words to Harry in Turn Coat.

Quote
"Because I knew," he whispered.  He lifted his right hand, and I gripped it hard. "I knew that you knew how it felt to be an innocent man hounded by the Wardens." It was the closest he'd ever come to saying that he'd been wrong about me.

So if Morgan knew all along that Harry was innocent, why all the fricking testing and making his life a horror?  It took being pursued and accused of a crime he didn't commit, before he went to the one guy he pursued when he knew he was innocent?  And even then, he couldn't say he was sorry? The
other thing that never made sense to me is Morgan, the Warden's Warden, would make promises to Margaret on any level.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 30, 2020, 10:26:07 PM
Because Morgan is going to appear in the next book (not half a book), and he needs to justify what is going to be some of his interaction with Harry, especially if alt Morgan follows him home.

Alt Morgan coming to our Harry’s timeline makes sense, Journal indicates that he knows Harry has the potential to be a destroyer, and if Alt Harry is a destroyer he knows his time-line is doomed. Alt-Luccio is likely dead, the White Council damaged beyond repair in the Red Court War, and Alt Morgan can make good on his promise to alt-Margaret.

I wonder if the White Council would consider Morgan apparently coming back to life as a breach of the Fifth Law? It may depend on whether he comes willingly or not.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: ClintACK on August 30, 2020, 11:10:26 PM
Because Morgan is going to appear in the next book (not half a book), and he needs to justify what is going to be some of his interaction with Harry, especially if alt Morgan follows him home.

Alt Morgan coming to our Harry’s timeline makes sense, Journal indicates that he knows Harry has the potential to be a destroyer, and if Alt Harry is a destroyer he knows his time-line is doomed. Alt-Luccio is likely dead, the White Council damaged beyond repair in the Red Court War, and Alt Morgan can make good on his promise to alt-Margaret.

I like this.

It would be especially nice for Harry to hear stories about Margaret from someone -- anyone -- who knew her. It's crazy that the most we've heard about her is that short bit from Luccio about how the wardens saw her.

Especially poignant to get to reconnect with his dead mother now, when he's starting to be a parent himself.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 30, 2020, 11:22:27 PM
I think Harry will get the chance to resurrect one person by bringing them over to this timeline, and Harry may decide Morgan is the one he resurrects in this fashion because he may be the one the timeline needs most, over perhaps Susan and/or Murphy, his one true enemy over either of his true loves. The Black Council also wanted Morgan gone.

And yes, he appears to have known Margaret well, she did manage to stay one step ahead of the Wardens, and Morgan was probably the reason why, and both Harry and Thomas would like to know more.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on August 31, 2020, 02:54:18 AM
So if Morgan knew all along that Harry was innocent, why all the fricking testing and making his life a horror?

I don't think he did know all along. I think Harry's actions as a Warden changed his mind.

But even then, I think maybe he wasn't 100% sure until right at the end, when it became clear that Peabody was a traitor and that Harry was one of the few Wardens not influenced.

I wonder if the White Council would consider Morgan apparently coming back to life as a breach of the Fifth Law? It may depend on whether he comes willingly or not.

Well, they don't seem to have been bothered by Harry coming back to life.

The 5th Law is specifically about necromancy.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on August 31, 2020, 05:50:13 AM
The other thing that never made sense to me is Morgan, the Warden's Warden, would make promises to Margaret on any level.

We don't have the entire conversation between Margaret and Warden Morgan.  Perhaps there are qualifiers to that promise that make it more inline with the Warden Morgan we knew from the novels.  I doubt Morgan promised to protect an adult Harry from the consequences of his own decisions.  I suspect the promise was to protect the child Harry from someone like Justin getting a hold of Harry and using him from their own purposes.

I think Harry will get the chance to resurrect one person by bringing them over to this timeline, and Harry may decide Morgan is the one he resurrects in this fashion because he may be the one the timeline needs most,...

I wonder if the White Council would consider Morgan apparently coming back to life as a breach of the Fifth Law? It may depend on whether he comes willingly or not.
Well, they don't seem to have been bothered by Harry coming back to life.

The 5th Law is specifically about necromancy.

Remember that Morgan was still officially viewed as a traitor by the White Council at the time of his death.  So how is the conversation between Harry and the Senior Council going to go; I mean how is Harry going to explain it, after they see Morgan seemingly return from the dead?  I think it's going to read like a Monty Python sketch or the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First?" sketch.   
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 31, 2020, 09:19:46 AM
We don't have the entire conversation between Margaret and Warden Morgan.  Perhaps there are qualifiers to that promise that make it more inline with the Warden Morgan we knew from the novels.  I doubt Morgan promised to protect an adult Harry from the consequences of his own decisions.  I suspect the promise was to protect the child Harry from someone like Justin getting a hold of Harry and using him from their own purposes.

Remember that Morgan was still officially viewed as a traitor by the White Council at the time of his death.  So how is the conversation between Harry and the Senior Council going to go; I mean how is Harry going to explain it, after they see Morgan seemingly return from the dead?  I think it's going to read like a Monty Python sketch or the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First?" sketch.

Which is why it is worth doing, besides, I think the whole pretence ‘There is no Black Council’ is about to end and the true traitors are about to be exposed.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2020, 01:55:03 PM
Quote
Remember that Morgan was still officially viewed as a traitor by the White Council at the time of his death.  So how is the conversation between Harry and the Senior Council going to go; I mean how is Harry going to explain it, after they see Morgan seemingly return from the dead?  I think it's going to read like a Monty Python sketch or the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First?" sketch.   

  Indeed.  The impression I got was the Senior Council at any rate knows that Morgan was innocent, but for political reasons have chosen to cover it up.  More interesting, what is the fall out from the effects of Peabody's ink on decisions made by the Council?  In the interest of not rocking the boat, those issues will be dealt with as quietly as possible least the Senior Council appear incompetent. So
better to maintain that Morgan was a guilty traitor than to admit the truth.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 31, 2020, 04:33:15 PM
Harry may give them no choice, I think we are coming to the time the GateKeeper foresaw where Harry challenges the Senior Council (for real) about how they have been acting, executing Warlocks (when Demonreach is available), the actions of the Black Staff in breaking the Laws of Magic, the failure to protect and nurture the magical have nots and most of all the failure to address the Black Council.

The fear was that the White Council would split as Wizards might pick the Black Council as a putative winner, however a Harry based win against the Titan (and the Black Council) will see these fairweather wizards back Harry, as well as the majority of the Wardens and younger wizards, Harry may well have a coalition which can force change. We may also see several members of the Senior Council ‘retired’ in BG, not just the older three in Chicago, but Ancient Mai as well. We may only see a gullible Christos Merlin and GateKeeper left.

Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2020, 04:46:43 PM
Quote
Harry may give them no choice, I think we are coming to the time the GateKeeper foresaw where Harry challenges the Senior Council (for real) about how they have been acting, executing Warlocks (when Demonreach is available), the actions of the Black Staff in breaking the Laws of Magic, the failure to protect and nurture the magical have nots and most of all the failure to address the Black Council.


Very possible, but it could be something a lot more dramatic.

Quote
The fear was that the White Council would split as Wizards might pick the Black Council as a putative winner, however a Harry based win against the Titan (and the Black Council) will see these fairweather wizards back Harry, as well as the majority of the Wardens and younger wizards, Harry may well have a coalition which can force change. We may also see several members of the Senior Council ‘retired’ in BG, not just the older three in Chicago, but Ancient Mai as well. We may only see a gullible Christos Merlin and GateKeeper left.

Yeah, River Shoulders comment to Harry about Listens to Wind nearing the end of his life, Eb's possible dementia, the Merlin not showing up to very important talks all hint of a possible big die off among the Senior Council.  As a consequences we might see Harry appointed to the Senior Council because he is the hero of the battle against the Titian pitted against Christos, the new Merlin, polarization is bound to be the result.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 31, 2020, 05:20:05 PM
You missed Martha Liberties broken leg.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2020, 05:40:55 PM
You missed Martha Liberties broken leg.

  Osteoporosis, at least it wasn't a hip.  A broken hip can be devastating in the elderly. 
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on September 01, 2020, 09:49:21 AM
I'm not sure I'd expect Morgan to be alive in the alt-universe.

Apparently Harry is on the run in the alt-universe. That probably doesn't have anything directly to do with the choice he made differently in GP, because the Council wouldn't have been angry at him for *not* starting the Vampire War.

So either he did something else to make the Council hunt him (and given that Harry is still alive, he might well have killed Morgan), or the Red Court struck later with better preparation and the White Council is losing or has already lost (and maybe they're the ones hunting Harry, not the Council).

-

If Eb dies in BG (as seems likely) and Harry picks up the Blackstaff, that could lead to a confrontation with the Council.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 01, 2020, 10:39:42 AM
Not sure Harry would pick up the Black Staff, consequences without guilt are not his sort of thing, and he believes in the 7 laws and would rather be creative about doing what he needs to do without breaking them.

Besides if he returns Mother Winters walking stick, she owes him a huge favour, perhaps healing/curing Thomas?. The Mothers provided a cure for Susan remember, the unravelling, when Harry couldn’t. A bit of foreshadowing as Harry has once again a loved one in peril from their vampire half.

Mab would love him to be the Black Staff, and Mother Winter would love Mab to have been less soft and sentimental with Harry. Accepting the Black Staff back would be in keeping with Mother Winter forcing Mab to live with the consequences of her soft treatment of Harry, an unruly and headstrong Knight. Harry is Mab’s punishment.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Mira on September 01, 2020, 02:50:44 PM
Quote
Mab would love him to be the Black Staff, and Mother Winter would love Mab to have been less soft and sentimental with Harry. Accepting the Black Staff back would be in keeping with Mother Winter forcing Mab to live with the consequences of her soft treatment of Harry, an unruly and headstrong Knight. Harry is Mab’s punishment.

Or her getting her staff back would be a good thing, less antagonism between Winter and everyone else, unity is what is needed for the coming BAT.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on September 02, 2020, 07:35:54 PM
Not sure Harry would pick up the Black Staff, consequences without guilt are not his sort of thing, and he believes in the 7 laws

He'd prefer not to, but then he'd have preferred not to draw on Lash's Hellfire in DB or become the Winter Knight in Changes. It just depends on what's at stake.

I don't think Harry knows about the Blackstaff being MW's walking stick, at least it's never been mentioned on-page.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 02, 2020, 10:12:47 PM
Not sure Harry would pick up the Black Staff, consequences without guilt are not his sort of thing, and he believes in the 7 laws and would rather be creative about doing what he needs to do without breaking them.

Besides if he returns Mother Winters walking stick, she owes him a huge favour, perhaps healing/curing Thomas?. The Mothers provided a cure for Susan remember, the unravelling, when Harry couldn’t. A bit of foreshadowing as Harry has once again a loved one in peril from their vampire half.

Mab would love him to be the Black Staff, and Mother Winter would love Mab to have been less soft and sentimental with Harry. Accepting the Black Staff back would be in keeping with Mother Winter forcing Mab to live with the consequences of her soft treatment of Harry, an unruly and headstrong Knight. Harry is Mab’s punishment.

I've long wondered the following:

1) If Mother Winter is so nasty because she's not protected from black magic backlash, hence the stick.
2) If the Blackstaff can cure existing corruption- so pull out from Harry the taint of killing DuMorne. Harry would probably be down with that.
3) If the penultimate end of the series results in the combination of the following Chekov's guns:


Or, the series ends with Harry ascending by nom noming the Nemfected, tainted powers trapped in Demonreach- as the Blackstaff pulls out the tainted aspect and Harry's Starborn status sloughs the Nemfection. And he ascends to the new Guardian of Reality- for his descendents.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 02, 2020, 11:22:13 PM
Deus ex machina when Harry has always been the little guy taking out the giants in the playground, nah.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2020, 01:00:44 AM
I've long wondered the following:

1) If Mother Winter is so nasty because she's not protected from black magic backlash, hence the stick.
2) If the Blackstaff can cure existing corruption- so pull out from Harry the taint of killing DuMorne. Harry would probably be down with that.

MW is an Immortal and therefore much more immutable than that. Since she's not a mortal with free will, she can't act against her nature anyway, so corruption wouldn't be possible/relevant in any case.

IE - any use of dark magic would be in line with her nature, and so at most would make her more of what she is ... but she's already 100% committed to being what she is, not conflicted like a mortal. This is why Fae don't hex tech by accident, etc.

Curing existing corruption... who knows. We really don't know the mechanics behind the Blackstaff. I tend to think not, but who knows?

I think the tendrils we see in Changes are more feeding off Eb's life energy than removing the black magic, as he seems to be fighting against them.
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 01:52:32 AM
MW is an Immortal and therefore much more immutable than that. Since she's not a mortal with free will, she can't act against her nature anyway, so corruption wouldn't be possible/relevant in any case.

IE - any use of dark magic would be in line with her nature, and so at most would make her more of what she is ... but she's already 100% committed to being what she is, not conflicted like a mortal. This is why Fae don't hex tech by accident, etc.

Curing existing corruption... who knows. We really don't know the mechanics behind the Blackstaff. I tend to think not, but who knows?

I think the tendrils we see in Changes are more feeding off Eb's life energy than removing the black magic, as he seems to be fighting against them.
Not to put too fine a point on it...but Maeve was Immortal, and so was Aurora. Mab even was considered by Titania as a viable candidate for nemfection (although no one bothered to consider whether Titania was/is). While they may be different things of course (black magic corruption and nemfection), no Immortal is truly immutable. I think that's rather the point Mother Summer was making about whether Harry could resist his mantle. It's also the point Vadderung was making about not being what he was ("change comes hard to Immortals"). They don't get a lot of choice in the matter, but not necessarily zero either. I think that's a big deal.

I agree though that some aspects of black magic don't seem particularly dissimilar to the darker powers of Winter. I revert back to D&D models a bit when this stuff gets brought up. I think the corruption caused by black magic is more like radiation sickness - get hit with too much and it changes you. But it's all part of a continuum of forces in this universe. What's unclear is the link to the Outside (if there is one).

We already know what the Blackstaff does from WOJ. It isn't a cure, it's a vaccine. It's insulation. Precisely what Winter is good at. Which does tend to suggest a link between black magic corruption and Outside. Winter is the immune system for Dresden's universe. We don't really know whether it would cure existing corruption..but it stands to reason it might.

Perhaps it was feeding off the dark magic. Considering how much dark magic has to do with both emotions and the result of the magic (read: consequences) I think that would make sense. We know that the spiritual component of a spell comes from memories and emotions, it would make sense that is what the staff is consuming.

However, I propose that it wasn't feeding at all and most people have misinterpreted the scene. It seems more likely to me that the Blackstaff was attempting to make Ebeneezer more like it. It wants to be used, as often and violently as possible. Like the One Ring and other such dark items. Consider that like the One Ring it likely shares a great deal of it's essence with it's creator. Jim was heavily influenced by Tolkien as much as any other fantasy author, but particularly for Jim I think the story had great effect on him for a variety of reasons. I think Ebeneezer was slapping the tendrils away as it attempted to corrupt him further. Not into black magic, but into the dark powers of winter - which I will say again are really not that different from black magic (just more of an icy theme).
Title: Re: Morgan's Journal Revisited
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2020, 03:27:26 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it...but Maeve was Immortal, and so was Aurora.

Sure, but that's change by an outside force of presumably greater power. The immutability of Immortals isn't absolute... but even non-mortals that aren't capital-I Immortals (such as regular fae) don't change by their own choices and actions; it takes mortal free will to do that.

Quote
I think that's rather the point Mother Summer was making about whether Harry could resist his mantle.

The Knight Mantle doesn't make Harry an Immortal, though. It's a mantle specifically made for mortals.

Quote
I think the corruption caused by black magic is more like radiation sickness - get hit with too much and it changes you.

I think you have to choose to use black magic, not just be exposed to it. I think it's just a result of the mortal ability to change one's own nature by free will, combined with the will-driven nature of magic making the effect much more direct & immediate.

(I tend to think that the 'mental ossification' of older wizards described in TC is actually the same effect resulting from non-Law-breaking magic.)

Quote
However, I propose that it wasn't feeding at all and most people have misinterpreted the scene. It seems more likely to me that the Blackstaff was attempting to make Ebeneezer more like it. It wants to be used, as often and violently as possible.

Certainly possible, but I am not sure the two ideas are really contradictory.

I think the Blackstaff is at least semi-living/semi-sentient and linked to its user's aura/life force/spirit/whatever, in a connection that goes both ways.

Quote
Not into black magic, but into the dark powers of winter - which I will say again are really not that different from black magic (just more of an icy theme).

I don't know. I think black magic corruption is more individual than that, for example using mind magic can make you want to fix people 'for their own good'.

Winter is much more violent and direct.

It might be parallel to First Law corruption (which is about killing), but I don't think necessarily corruption in general.