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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: gawime on August 21, 2020, 03:43:05 AM
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Every book in the series so far helped expand the world building, at times in small ways. New antagonists; new knowledge; added characters all helped grow the Dresdenverse. Peace Talks in my mind is the first book in the entire series that bent that trajectory. I’m speaking of the Accords meeting. The Accords are supposed to be something that spans the entire supernatural world. But who do we see at chez Marcone’s? The same cast of characters we’ve always seen. That’s it? A half dozen or so powers? Where’s everyone else?
Peace talks is a deeply flawed novel...perhaps the worst in the series so far. A lot can be forgiven. But I’m not sure I can overlook taking an axe to the world building that’s been done up to now.
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Every book in the series so far helped expand the world building, at times in small ways. New antagonists; new knowledge; added characters all helped grow the Dresdenverse. Peace Talks in my mind is the first book in the entire series that bent that trajectory. I’m speaking of the Accords meeting. The Accords are supposed to be something that spans the entire supernatural world. But who do we see at chez Marcone’s? The same cast of characters we’ve always seen. That’s it? A half dozen or so powers? Where’s everyone else?
Peace talks is a deeply flawed novel...perhaps the worst in the series so far. A lot can be forgiven. But I’m not sure I can overlook taking an axe to the world building that’s been done up to now.
I think it could be burnout at work, Jim going through the motions because after six years he feels
he owes us a book.
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I don't know. The local ones (the Svartalves, Marcone) and the globally-relevant ones (Summer and Winter, the White Court, the White Council) were there. Beings like the Jade Court and some Freeholding Lords we haven't met just might not have any interest.
Also, the Fomor's allies might show up in BG fighting on that side.
The Accords have been losing members recently... the Red Court's dead and the Denarians got kicked out, and I'm not sure if the Tylwyth Teg are still members (depends on if Gwynn ap Nudd was a Freeholding Lord or not, I think).
There's a lot of things in the Dresdenverse that we haven't seen, but I think we really have met the major powers (though not all the Freeholding Lords). Stuff that basically stays in the Nevernever, like most of the old gods, probably aren't on the Accords and have no reason to be there in PT.
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My main argument is still that if you read the short story bombshells you cannot be surprised that not too many people show up for a rematch.
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My main argument is still that if you read the short story bombshells you cannot be surprised that not too many people show up for a rematch.
Bombshells it was mostly a bilateral nonaggression pact between the Svartalves and the Fomor, not as big as formal peace talks.
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Bombshells it was mostly a bilateral nonaggression pact between the Svartalves and the Fomor, not as big as formal peace talks.
Sure, but Bombshells does imply that the Fomor are known to be betrayers (at least known to the Fae). So a lot of people might not really want to be there, expecting major trouble.
All the really "central" supernatural nations were there -- Winter, Summer, the White Council, the White Court (the only remaining powerful & widespread Vampire Court).
The powers we know are on the Accords but haven't met (the Jade Court, Drakul, another Dragon -- I guess Pyrovax, an Ukrainian shapeshifter guru, etc.) didn't have a reason to be there, or expected trouble and didn't need to be there enough to take the risk.
Though some might show up fighting on the Fomor's side in BG.
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I would note the text made clear we didn't get all the attendees; one local clan of Ghouls was expanded upon because HARRY cared. But for all the smaller others present? They sent a representative, they mingled, they didn't jump to Marcone's defence but also didn't jump on the fearful side.
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Every book in the series so far helped expand the world building, at times in small ways. New antagonists; new knowledge; added characters all helped grow the Dresdenverse. Peace Talks in my mind is the first book in the entire series that bent that trajectory. I’m speaking of the Accords meeting. The Accords are supposed to be something that spans the entire supernatural world. But who do we see at chez Marcone’s? The same cast of characters we’ve always seen. That’s it? A half dozen or so powers? Where’s everyone else?
Peace talks is a deeply flawed novel...perhaps the worst in the series so far. A lot can be forgiven. But I’m not sure I can overlook taking an axe to the world building that’s been done up to now.
I don't think it is deeply flawed. It is not yet finished and JB made no secret of the fact that he basically splitted one book in two. So I would wait with condemning the whole book. We don't have all the information yet.
And I would say, that I enjoyed reading the book.
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Another thought on Peace Talks disappointment -- I remember being very disappointed with Ghost Story, having waited for a year to see Harry back alive and with his friends. Now, on rereads, I enjoy Ghost Story quite a bit.
I expect Peace Talks will look much better when we've read Battle Ground, and better still when we've got another book or two under our belts.
Looking forward, I expect to be disappointed at the end of Battle Ground if we see *that* the masquerade is over, but don't get to see how that falls out. I expect to be even more disappointed if the book after Battle Ground takes place entirely in a mirror universe so that we *still* don't get to see that fallout. But I expect to enjoy both books immensely anyway.
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Another thought on Peace Talks disappointment -- I remember being very disappointed with Ghost Story, having waited for a year to see Harry back alive and with his friends. Now, on rereads, I enjoy Ghost Story quite a bit.
I expect Peace Talks will look much better when we've read Battle Ground, and better still when we've got another book or two under our belts.
Looking forward, I expect to be disappointed at the end of Battle Ground if we see *that* the masquerade is over, but don't get to see how that falls out. I expect to be even more disappointed if the book after Battle Ground takes place entirely in a mirror universe so that we *still* don't get to see that fallout. But I expect to enjoy both books immensely anyway.
I don't think Peace Talks will ever be a fully enjoyable read by itself. Unlike other Dresden Files novels; specifically Ghost Story and Fool Moon, both of which have often been placed on the top of least favorite Dresden Files novels lists, it doesn't tell a complete story. For that reason it will always fall short for a large swath of readers.
If next year I was talking to someone who just started the series, I would have to warn them that while Peace Talks isn't a complete story, if you don't read it the next book won't make any sense at all. Not that I recommending skipping any of the novels but it is easy for a newer reader to read a couple of the novels out of order and Peace Talks and Battle Ground would be an especially bad place to make that mistake. On the other hand a new reader of the series will have the advantage of reading both books back to back. If; for example, in the next couple of chapters of Battle Ground we start to see Harry shake his brain loose and start thinking like the detective he is, the problem I, and many other readers, had with Harry in Peace Talks will quickly fade away for that reader while we have had a couple of months to wonder why Harry is behaving the way he is.
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Every book in the series so far helped expand the world building, at times in small ways. New antagonists; new knowledge; added characters all helped grow the Dresdenverse. Peace Talks in my mind is the first book in the entire series that bent that trajectory. I’m speaking of the Accords meeting. The Accords are supposed to be something that spans the entire supernatural world. But who do we see at chez Marcone’s? The same cast of characters we’ve always seen. That’s it? A half dozen or so powers? Where’s everyone else?
Peace talks is a deeply flawed novel...perhaps the worst in the series so far. A lot can be forgiven. But I’m not sure I can overlook taking an axe to the world building that’s been done up to now.
For one thing, the accords members we saw in PT are those who are involve in the fomorian conflict. This is the peace talks to end the war between the establish powers against the currently agressive fomor. Those powers who are not bordering on the sea or large body of water probably won't attend the meeting. They don't have any business there. I also suspect that the fomorian do not provoke all powers bordering their domain, nor do I believe that the fomorian has control over all of the sea. There must be other powers down there, Poseidon for example. In fact, Ghost story did told us that fomorians only provoke those that do not have champions of their own to defend them.
So what we saw in PT are those that is involve in the conflict, which not nescesarily all members of the accords. Nor does the member of the Unceli accords represents the entire supernatural powers upon planet earth, not to mentioned the powers of the NN.
Areas like mainland China and India probably is not involve in this conflict, which is probably why we haven't see the Hindu gods just yet. From this we can see that most of the fomorian conflict happens in American continent which make sense because the power vacume cause by the destruction of the red court which is the spark of this conflict is based in south america. Maybe the red court have other bases and branches in europe, africa and Asia, but I think those should be minor. It explain why Marcone can host the talks, because Chicago is indeed in the conflicted zone.
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But who do we see at chez Marcone’s? The same cast of characters we’ve always seen. That’s it? A half dozen or so powers? Where’s everyone else?
If the people of the Accords are anything like the the White Council, it very could be that those not in attendance are not there because they don't want to be. How long did it take Harry to finally go to a Council meeting? He had been a wizard for years and the council meeting in SK was his first one as a full status wizard. Like Mac having his pub used as neutral ground, my guess is that a lot of the Accorded people use it for protection. As far as we know, the Nickleheads are signatories of the Accords, but was not in attendance. I'm sure Harry and Marcone would have had apoplexies with good "saint" Nic there.
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I don't think Peace Talks will ever be a fully enjoyable read by itself. Unlike other Dresden Files novels; specifically Ghost Story and Fool Moon, both of which have often been placed on the top of least favorite Dresden Files novels lists, it doesn't tell a complete story. For that reason it will always fall short for a large swath of readers.
On the reread it feels like Jim didn't know where he wanted to go with the story. Biggest example is Rudolph and Bradley showing up at Murphy's house to question her about the bank break in and Harvey's death from Skin Game, what was the point of that? Unless in the end if she isn't killed they suddenly arrest Murphy for murder or something like that. Suddenly Eb is acting weird, the whole Senior Council is out to get Harry yet again, this time without even a hearing like he got in Summer Knight. Then the whole thing with Thomas which is frankly a distraction from the Peace Talks. I guess I am disappointed because I was expecting more infighting and politicking, which we didn't get. At the end of Peace Talks we are just as clueless about why Thomas attacked as we were in the beginning. Though on the reread it is easier to pick up upon the fact that Thomas was uptight about something and it was more than Justine's pregnancy. I wouldn't be shocked if the Fomor or one of their allies conned Thomas into believing if he pulled this off they could keep Justine from dying or something like that.
One also comes away with the fact that if Harry had known the power he has on the island aside from knowing everything thing that happens on it, Shaggy wouldn't have had a chance against him back in Turn Coat.
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I agree the actual Peace Talks were a bit underwhelming in terms of both number of guests and variety of factions and faces.
While I also agree that the Peace Talks had some issues, from what I have heard from someone with an early release copy a lot of the issues are resolved.
Unfortunately, nothing solves the slightly rushed feeling of the books - particularly relating to spelling and grammar mistakes and some inconsistencies.
In saying all that, I very much enjoyed Peace Talks as a novel. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much if the wait between it and Battle Ground was longer (like a year) and I would have been furious if it were any more than that. Peace Talks isn't the beginning of opening up the Dresdenverse (that's more like Changes), but it is where the pace really starts to pick up. We are given plenty of good information and we start to see the Files grow in scale.
We have had hints about how big the series is going to get but it will be fascinating to see how Jim does it (hopefully).
I am reserving my full judgement until after Battle Ground is released, at any rate.
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I agree the actual Peace Talks were a bit underwhelming in terms of both number of guests and variety of factions and faces.
While I also agree that the Peace Talks had some issues, from what I have heard from someone with an early release copy a lot of the issues are resolved.
Unfortunately, nothing solves the slightly rushed feeling of the books - particularly relating to spelling and grammar mistakes and some inconsistencies.
In saying all that, I very much enjoyed Peace Talks as a novel. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much if the wait between it and Battle Ground was longer (like a year) and I would have been furious if it were any more than that. Peace Talks isn't the beginning of opening up the Dresdenverse (that's more like Changes), but it is where the pace really starts to pick up. We are given plenty of good information and we start to see the Files grow in scale.
We have had hints about how big the series is going to get but it will be fascinating to see how Jim does it (hopefully).
I am reserving my full judgement until after Battle Ground is released, at any rate.
I am not saying I didn't enjoy Peace Talks, but the careful second reading are bringing a lot of WTF moments. Harry asks a few important questions about why this is happening, even taken aback a bit by Justine's first reaction, "Does Lara know?" However the questions are not followed up on. The timing of the assassination attempt after his "interview" and marching orders from Mab to grant Lara her two last favors. What was the first favor she granted? I cannot help but think given Molly's reaction to Lara in chapter three of Battleground that somehow the two are related. I just hope that Battleground answers a lot of these questions and isn't just a lot of smoke and fury. Or season six of Game of Thrones revisited.
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I did notice the other day that PT (according to Google Play) is 352 pages, and BG is 432 pages. More meat to the bones. It's tough when books need to be split, especially during the writing process. I'll probably always treat PT and BG as one book due to this in the future.
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I did notice the other day that PT (according to Google Play) is 352 pages, and BG is 432 pages. More meat to the bones. It's tough when books need to be split, especially during the writing process. I'll probably always treat PT and BG as one book due to this in the future.
That is why I waited until not to do my reread of PT so it runs into BG. I still don't buy the reasons for splitting it up though.. I recently bought a 750 page book, it didn't cost anymore than a 350 page book. Actually if you add the prices of the two books together it is going to cost us more than one big one would.
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It sucks. Kind of like when Paolini split Brisingr into 2 books and the Inheritance Trilogy became a series. During the splitting of Peace Talks into 2 books, there may have been scenes cut and shelved for future book use. Maybe the publisher told him that writing a book over 500 pages would technically "break" his contract and therefore increase the cost. Who knows... At least we only had to wait 60 days for part 2.
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It sucks. Kind of like when Paolini split Brisingr into 2 books and the Inheritance Trilogy became a series. During the splitting of Peace Talks into 2 books, there may have been scenes cut and shelved for future book use. Maybe the publisher told him that writing a book over 500 pages would technically "break" his contract and therefore increase the cost. Who knows... At least we only had to wait 60 days for part 2.
I really don't understand why we had to wait two months for the second book.. Why didn't they just sell them separately at the same time?
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I really don't understand why we had to wait two months for the second book.. Why didn't they just sell them separately at the same time?
In a ComicCon interview this year, Butcher said that the best his publisher could do was 60 days.
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In a ComicCon interview this year, Butcher said that the best his publisher could do was 60 days.
I find it hard to believe that though, but then what do I know about the publishing business? However it still doesn't make logical sense, they print books everyday, since both books were done and edited, then all one has to do is print them and get them out to be sold. I think it is more about hyping it for sixty days, then when it comes out, you sell more books and make more money.
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If it was a smaller publisher, with less books to publish, that might have been simpler... but Penguin is huge, with many authors under its imprint, and print schedules planned months in advance. With all their other commitments in place, putting out both books at once probably wouldn't have been possible, especially considering the quantities needed for a best-selling series like this one. Yeah, we think Jim's a big deal (and for good reason! ;D ) but fast-tracking Battle Ground more than 60 days would have likely meant delaying other, even bigger authors' works, and that's something Penguin probably couldn't do, contractually or physically.
That's my guess, anyway. It might not be completely accurate, since I never worked in publishing, but I did work in bookstores for many, many years, and I remember seeing some lines' publishing schedules worked out months in advance. That might not be the only reason, but I'd figure printer limitations and scheduling was part of it.
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If it was a smaller publisher, with less books to publish, that might have been simpler... but Penguin is huge, with many authors under its imprint, and print schedules planned months in advance. With all their other commitments in place, putting out both books at once probably wouldn't have been possible, especially considering the quantities needed for a best-selling series like this one. Yeah, we think Jim's a big deal (and for good reason! ;D ) but fast-tracking Battle Ground more than 60 days would have likely meant delaying other, even bigger authors' works, and that's something Penguin probably couldn't do, contractually or physically.
I think it is more about the original contract that was signed between them, it was carefully planned in advance, before Jim ever put a word down on paper. Big publishing companies would have insisted upon it.
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I'm not saying you're wrong... but sometimes there's a certain amount of flexibility in writer's contracts. Things happen, and books aren't always completed by a deadline. Some authors get contracted for a certain number of books in advance, say, "three novels in two years, with at least one belonging to a particular series." Nobody expected Peace Talks to get split until it happened, so I'm not sure it would have been planned for in the original contract.
(Rob Thurman, an author I adore, only had two books come out in a series I loved, because the publisher didn't pick up the option to print the third. The first two didn't sell enough to merit it, according to the publisher. :-\ I still mourn not knowing what would have happened next... hopefully we'll find out someday.)
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I will say that just about everything is much more complicated than someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with it tends to think. I remember seeing a video of a college age girl running a tractor. It looked more complicated than Houston space command during the Apollo era. I mean, I knew farming is a lot more complicated than putting a seed in a hole in the ground and making sure it got enough water, but I don't think I could run a tractor on a serious farm without training.
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I will say that just about everything is much more complicated than someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with it tends to think. I remember seeing a video of a college age girl running a tractor. It looked more complicated than Houston space command during the Apollo era. I mean, I knew farming is a lot more complicated than putting a seed in a hole in the ground and making sure it got enough water, but I don't think I could run a tractor on a serious farm without training.
Actually trackers are pretty easy to drive, I've done it.. However they can be a dangerous piece of equipment and several farmers are killed each year driving them. However you are right, farming is a lot more complicated because you are dealing with living things and ever changing conditions that have to be compensated for otherwise, livestock dies and crops are lost.. Sometimes it happens no matter what you do right.
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I've driven tractors too. Just not like the one I saw this girl driving. I don't think such complicated tractors existed 10, maybe even five, years ago. The one I drove was operated almost exactly the same as a stick shift car with some controls for the tractor parts too. All the instruction I needed was my dad telling me "this does that, and that does this." It was pretty straight forward.
Found it. https://youtu.be/9dQItxc5zto (https://youtu.be/9dQItxc5zto). She's got at least four screens in there.
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I've driven tractors too. Just not like the one I saw this girl driving. I don't think such complicated tractors existed 10, maybe even five, years ago. The one I drove was operated almost exactly the same as a stick shift car with some controls for the tractor parts too. All the instruction I needed was my dad telling me "this does that, and that does this." It was pretty straight forward.
Found it. https://youtu.be/9dQItxc5zto (https://youtu.be/9dQItxc5zto). She's got at least four screens in there.
Take away the screens and it still is a tractor.. Notice it has the usual steering wheel and goes about five miles per hour. Sounds like the screens were mostly for data concerning the crops that she was harvesting, and it sounds like they make that much easier as well. I admit all the computer screens would burn my brain to ash, but I am not tech wizard.. But take them away and it still a tractor, okay maybe a one or two hundred thousand dollar tractor, but still a tractor.
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Take away the screens and it still is a tractor.
Take away what makes a thing complicated, and it's not complicated. I could get in that tractor, start it, and drive it. It doesn't mean I wouldn't destroy the crops in the process, much less, accomplish something useful.
Sounds like the screens were mostly for data concerning the crops that she was harvesting, and it sounds like they make that much easier as well.
Exactly. She's doing it the easy way.
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Take away what makes a thing complicated, and it's not complicated. I could get in that tractor, start it, and drive it. It doesn't mean I wouldn't destroy the crops in the process, much less, accomplish something useful.
Well, yeah, there is a lot more to farming than one thinks, a lot more.. I know, I've done it. Ever
try pulling a calf in near zero conditions? I have, it isn't easy and the little bugger actually lived! ;D
Then the young mother rejected it, it ended up in my living room.
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Well, yeah, there is a lot more to farming than one thinks, a lot more.. I know, I've done it. Ever
try pulling a calf in near zero conditions? I have, it isn't easy and the little bugger actually lived! ;D
Then the young mother rejected it, it ended up in my living room.
I live on the Gulf Coast, so near zero conditions are something that could kill because I don't know what I don't know about things being that cold. Having a calf in your living room must have been fun (sarcasm).
To answer your question, my only experience with cattle is seeing them, eating them, and dropping off hay for them with a (small) tractor. Basically the rest of my knowledge of them is academic but broader than one might expect.