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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 05, 2020, 03:13:12 AM
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1. In Skin Game, Mab wanted Harry to get the weapons in Hades vault.
Harry got all but the grail, but Mab knew that she couldn’t count on Harry getting everything, so it pretty much worked out as she planned it to. The blade of the spear of Longinus seems especially important in the current context, as it can be used to kill an immortal.
2. In the short story Bombshells, after Molly diffused the Fomor bomb and survived the attack of the Fomor Lord, Lea told her, “…But the Fomor are betrayers. Ever have they been, ever will they be. The only question is what form their treachery will take. The svartalves had to be shown.” Specifically, Mr. Etri needed to learn about Fomor treachery.
So, Lea knew the Fomor were betrayers, which means that Mab knew the Fomor were betrayers; and finally, both Molly and Mr. Etri learned exactly how treacherous the Fomor can be.
This means there is no way that Mab, Molly and Mr. Etri didn’t know that a Fomor sucker punch was coming, though Etri may have been distracted by the assassination attempt. I think we can also add Lara to this list. Lara sent Thomas into the Fomor stronghold in Bombshells for the same reason Lea sent Molly; to break up a Fomor – Swartalf non-aggression treaty. Like Lea, Lara was convinced the Fomor were only trying to divide and conquer the other supernatural powers piecemeal. Plus, Thomas probably gave Lara the details of what happened that night or at least what he knew of them.
It's also likely that Odin was clued in to what was coming, because it’s almost a part of his job description to know these things. That leaves Marcone. He knew enough about the Fomor not to be fooled by their peace initiative, but whether he and Mab were in direct communication beforehand about a possible Fomor sucker punch is somewhat questionable. I think Mab would have simply expected Marcone to be aware of the possibility. Not that Mab would have expected Marcone to be able to stop the Fomor, but she would expect Marcone to be able to roll with the punch.
This does not mean any of the above-named characters knew the form this betrayal would take. As in Bombshells, after Molly asked Lea how she knew that Molly would find the bomb the Fomor Lord was intending to detonate, “Bomb?” She (Lea) shook her head. “I did not know what was happening in any specific sense. But the Fomor are betrayers,” which leads back to what I quoted near the beginning.
So, Mab and company might not have known about the “Eye of Balor,” but I bet that at least Mab did know that Ethni… whatever, was involved. We know that even Alfred sensed her presence when he said to Harry, “THE LAST TITAN IS ON THE MOVE!” I bet that for Mab, the whole point of the peace talks was to draw Ethniu out of hiding. Get the Titan to become overconfident and a bit reckless. As a bonus, Mab would learn which signatories to her accords would fight to uphold them. Separate the wheat from the chaff; or perhaps I should I say, separate those supernatural nations that would remain in Mab’s good graces and those Mab would go out of her way to throw to the wolves. The leader of the LaChaise clan has no clue what kind of mistake he has made.
Harry thinks that he’s acting on the fly, making it up as he goes along, but just like in Skin Game, Mab has set the game up for him. Harry just hasn’t figured that out yet.
PART TWO
None of what I said above tells us what was going on with Thomas’ alleged assassination attempt against Etri, but it suggests to me that Mab was involved in some way. Not that Mab planned to violate her own accords, but she was probably aware of what was going to happen and tried to play it to her own benefit.
I’m not certain of anything except that in some way, Mab, Lara and Marcone are working together. I don’t mean the three of them have gotten together to have planning sessions. Clearly Mab and Lara didn’t trade favors by accident. On Marcone’s end, he had to know the potential weakness the dumbwaiter created in the gym when he agreed to have it installed and Marcone knew that Karrin Murphy trained at that gym on almost a daily basis. So, without Marcone having to talk to either Lara or Harry, holding Thomas made it fairly easy for Lara; with Harry’s help guided by Karrin Murphy’s knowledge, to allow Thomas’ escape while allowing Marcone to escape blame for the escape. It’s as if Thomas disappeared from Marcone’s custody by magic!
There’s a larger game going on that we aren’t privy to yet. It not just about someone pressuring Thomas to kill Etri, but about the countermoves that Mab; with some help, has been making.
Now for a WAG, or two. Mab will succeed, but not in everything. Harry is going to screw up her plans in some major fashion. Mab is thinking of replacing Harry with Thomas. She’s more than a little miffed that Harry won’t bend to her will and Thomas has much more obvious weak spots for her to apply pressure to. Of course, this possibility will be obviated if Thomas become a KotC. Mab will be stuck with Harry as her Knight, at least until Halloween rolls around. "Many, many mantles are worn-or discarded-on Halloween night, wizard."
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Now for a WAG, or two. Mab will succeed, but not in everything. Harry is going to screw up her plans in some major fashion. Mab is thinking of replacing Harry with Thomas. She’s more than a little miffed that Harry won’t bend to her will and Thomas has much more obvious weak spots for her to apply pressure to. Of course, this possibility will be obviated if Thomas become a KotC. Mab will be stuck with Harry as her Knight, at least until Halloween rolls around. "Many, many mantles are worn-or discarded-on Halloween night, wizard."
Yup.. Mab was whom Thomas was counting on to put the embryo Hunger to sleep for the next nine months so Justine could survive the pregnancy. She did bring Lara in on at least part of her plan, that is why the strange timing not unlike Skin Game where suddenly she paying up on three favors owed to the White Court. Lara goes along with it because that is her insurance that her bother is going to survive the assassination attempt and aftermath. Harry is brought in but told nothing and mostly reacts to all of this, after the escape he puts Thomas in the one place he knows he will be safe, in the slammer on Demonreach. This is what makes Lara go berserk because she realizes at that point that she and Thomas have been pawns in Mab's greater chess match and thinks Harry is in on it. He is not, but at one point he does see the greater picture and even says he is beginning to think like Mab.
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Yup.. Mab was whom Thomas was counting on to put the embryo Hunger to sleep for the next nine months so Justine could survive the pregnancy.
I'd be 100% in on this theory -- it occurred to me too -- except that I'm not sure how Thomas would contact Mab except through Harry or Lara; it clearly wasn't Harry, and Lara probably wouldn't be willing.
Although maybe Lara does work. I was thinking that intervening would mean the baby would be a normal mortal, not a Whampire at all, and that Lara wouldn't want that. But if Mab could make it safer for Justine without that...
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Yes, Mab has always shown herself to be naive, trusting and tender hearted.
Her aim is to bolster the Accords in preparation for battle against the Outsider, nothing quite like an immediate common foe to undertake that and stop relying upon Mab to solve things.
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At first I was thinking 'well Mab wouldn't have taken the risk if she'd known what was coming, she couldn't be sure Ethniu wouldn't use the Eye at full force and kill her'.
But then I remembered that Mab is a true Immortal and PT is taking place in July. So she wasn't really at risk of dying.
Her aim is to bolster the Accords in preparation for battle against the Outsider
Or to remove the powers who won't actually come through when it matters.
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Nobody likes the Ghouls, they are only convenient muscle.
Thomas has a moderate magical talent and is a venator, he could summon Mab himself if he wanted .
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Nobody likes the Ghouls, they are only convenient muscle.
Thomas has a moderate magical talent and is a venator, he could summon Mab himself if he wanted .
I don't think he could, his talent is very limited. However Mab knows what is going on in the world, she doesn't have to be summoned. We saw that in Summer Knight, she just showed up at Harry's office, she wasn't summoned. She is looking at the whole chess board at all times and has to stay ten moves ahead of everyone else to survive and to keep the world safe. She saw the predicament that Thomas and Justine was in and used it to her advantage by honoring favors to Lara, who in turn, now is obligated to keep Harry safe because the fate of Thomas is in his hands..
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As a Venator Thomas knows all about summoning rituals and how to disrupt them.
Even Harry in Peace Talks admits Thomas has a minor gift, and Winter lies closest to the mortal world in the Never Never, so yes he should be able to summon Mab. Containing her is probably beyond him though.
The problem with the whole Mab did it scenario is that for Thomas to be clear, Etri has to be convinced that Thomas was a dupe, an agent and not the principle, as Etri would seek the full punishment against the principal (this was discussed in Bombshells by Etri himself). Therefore Eb setting off a White Court / Swaertalf War or Evanna seeking death by Etri to punish Thomas for cutting her off/seeking Guest Right /Asylum for him, Justine and the Baby tend to be more likely narratives. Mab won’t undermine her Accords, even she knows better than to get between Harry and his family, this is the type of thing she needs Harry for because it is what he does best. She doesn’t want her best weapon to turn against her, especially as he is now a significant threat to her should he decide to be.
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As a Venator Thomas knows all about summoning rituals and how to disrupt them.
Even Harry in Peace Talks admits Thomas has a minor gift, and Winter lies closest to the mortal world in the Never Never, so yes he should be able to summon Mab. Containing her is probably beyond him though.
Good point. Of course; if Mab believed she had a good enough reason to do so, she could simply appear to Thomas whenever she wanted to. As we saw with Cat Sith, Mab could enter Thomas and Justine's apartment from the nevernever as long as her intentions were peaceful. If something like that happened; while Justine was out, it would be because Mab was offering Thomas a deal of some sort.
The problem with the whole Mab did it scenario is that for Thomas to be clear, Etri has to be convinced that Thomas was a dupe, an agent and not the principle, as Etri would seek the full punishment against the principal (this was discussed in Bombshells by Etri himself). Therefore Eb setting off a White Court / Swaertalf War or Evanna seeking death by Etri to punish Thomas for cutting her off/seeking Guest Right /Asylum for him, Justine and the Baby tend to be more likely narratives. Mab won’t undermine her Accords, even she knows better than to get between Harry and his family, this is the type of thing she needs Harry for because it is what he does best. She doesn’t want her best weapon to turn against her, especially as he is now a significant threat to her should he decide to be.
I've been thinking about this and maybe there's another way. Relations with the fae are all about balance; either maintaining it or regaining it. It's possible to tell Etri that Thomas was pressured by a third party to do what he did, but without proof it's just a story. However, what if Thomas did something to balance the scales? He took a swartalf life, but saved a swartalf life (or more than one). I remember that Ebenezer credited Michael with saving his life and a group of trainees from Outsiders, near the end of Turn Coat. What if a new Knight of the Cross saved Mr. Etri's life; and maybe Evanna's as well, from a nasty bunch of Outsiders? It could be the exact thing needed to resolve the situation in a positive manner.
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I kind of think in that instance a Swartalf would both punish and honour, posthumously.
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The problem with the whole Mab did it scenario is that for Thomas to be clear, Etri has to be convinced that Thomas was a dupe, an agent and not the principle, as Etri would seek the full punishment against the principal (this was discussed in Bombshells by Etri himself).
Not sure Mab cares about Thomas being "clear". Under this theory, Mab knows that Harry will rescue Thomas, and knows that's what Lara will use her favors for (and Mab probably arranged with Marcone for Thomas to be moved so Harry and Lara didn't have to attack the Svartalves).
Mab won’t undermine her Accords,
IMO she isn't. Mab lent Harry to Lara to pay off favors. Anything Harry does during that time is Lara's responsibility, by Faerie rules.
So any Svartalf revenge would come down on the White Court, not Winter. War is covered under the Accords; a White Court/Svartalf war isn't inherently against the Accords.
And there probably won't be a war... nothing can be proved. Thomas disappeared mysteriously. No way the Svartalves have divinations good enough to find out what happened, Demonreach is impenetrable.
Sure, once Thomas is healed, maybe there'd be an issue then... but after Harry (probably) imprisons a Titan who beat up Mab, things will look quite different.
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Not sure Mab cares about Thomas being "clear". Under this theory, Mab knows that Harry will rescue Thomas, and knows that's what Lara will use her favors for (and Mab probably arranged with Marcone for Thomas to be moved so Harry and Lara didn't have to attack the Svartalves).
Which is the whole point, Mab has a greater agenda and set everyone up. Whatever her plan was has been thrown out the window by the appearance of the Titan.. Unless of course she anticipated that and that is why she is setting things up the way she did.
You say Thomas could have summoned Mab, he has that kind of power but he couldn't contain her. However has Thomas been taught how to summon anyone or thing? Even if he had, why would he call Mab specifically? I also think the Fae can be contained by an ordinary circle, there was nothing special about the circle Harry drew when he called Molly, yet she couldn't cross it.. The same goes for when he had done it in the past, even when it was Mab. In Dead Beat Harry had Butters draw a circle and stay with in it for protection, Butters has minimum talent at best. Loops, demons, and other monsters require something a little stronger as Kim found out.
No, Mab knows that Thomas could be tempted in ways that Harry cannot. So she appeared to Thomas, she was right, Justine's apparent pregnancy made him vulnerable to "Let's Make a Deal" Sidhe style..
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Regarding whether Thomas could contain Mab or not. I think if Harry could only just contain the earl king when he summoned him it is a safe bet that Thomas could not contain Mab. As far as I remember Harry is not at all confident in his circle when he summons Titania in Cold Days. More like, he is certain it cannot hold her. I think it is unclear if Molly could have left the circle of she really wanted to. She could not just step out of it, but might have been able to fight her way out of it if she really wanted to.
It seems like with the really powerful beings most of the time the circle is more of a compliment to their power than an actual attempt to contain them.
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Regarding whether Thomas could contain Mab or not. I think if Harry could only just contain the earl king when he summoned him it is a safe bet that Thomas could not contain Mab. As far as I remember Harry is not at all confident in his circle when he summons Titania in Cold Days. More like, he is certain it cannot hold her. I think it is unclear if Molly could have left the circle of she really wanted to. She could not just step out of it, but might have been able to fight her way out of it if she really wanted to.
It seems like with the really powerful beings most of the time the circle is more of a compliment to their power than an actual attempt to contain them.
Molly didn't even try, she said she couldn't, supposedly she cannot lie now. Harry invited her out, but she said she couldn't leave until he broke the circle.
Harry easily contained the Eriking because he made his summoning circle of iron barbed wire.
Now Titania did manage to break the circle, but it was a pretty ordinary circle...
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Molly didn't even try, she said she couldn't, supposedly she cannot lie now. Harry invited her out, but she said she couldn't leave until he broke the circle.
Harry easily contained the Eriking because he made his summoning circle of iron barbed wire.
Now Titania did manage to break the circle, but it was a pretty ordinary circle...
It wasn't easy and he had Erl's Name (sort of) for that.
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Good practice for Ethnui
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Which is the whole point, Mab has a greater agenda and set everyone up. Whatever her plan was has been thrown out the window by the appearance of the Titan.. Unless of course she anticipated that and that is why she is setting things up the way she did.
I think she anticipated some kind of betrayal from the Fomor; I don't know if she expected Ethniu specifically.
As KurtinStGeorge says in the original post, if Lea knows the Fomor are betrayers by nature, surely Mab does too.
But the Fomor may have showed up with more force than she was expecting.
You say Thomas could have summoned Mab, he has that kind of power but he couldn't contain her. However has Thomas been taught how to summon anyone or thing?
Well, we know Mab knows about Thomas (she mentioned to Harry that she might recruit him as Winter Knight, before Harry actually took up the job).
IIRC beings like that can hear their name spoken, so Thomas might be able to just say Mab's name three times and ask to make a deal. There'd be no compulsion to show up or control of her if she did show up, but Mab would likely want to have a deal with Thomas (she might be able to use it to put more pressure on Harry...)
Even if he had, why would he call Mab specifically?
The more I think about this, the more it might make sense. Thomas has some connection to Mab through Harry. Thomas knows about Harry's "tense" working relationship with Mab. Mab knows that if she killed Thomas and Harry found out about it, Harry would stop being useful to her.
So of all the super-powerful beings out there, Mab probably is the most likely to a) actually show up and b) not kill Thomas out of hand for having the temerity to call on her.
Molly didn't even try, she said she couldn't, supposedly she cannot lie now. Harry invited her out, but she said she couldn't leave until he broke the circle.
She said maybe she could, but it would mess her up badly so she wouldn't try.
Also, Harry was asking her if she could just step out like a mortal, I'm not sure that is quite the same thing as a contest of wills like Harry vs Erlking in DB.
But yeah - circles are definitely a huge deal. I kind of doubt Thomas could hold Mab with a normal circle (she's stronger than the Erlking, and Thomas isn't experienced with this like Harry is, and Harry had an "improved" circle in DB) but she would have to exert some significant will/power to break free, IMO.
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Now for a WAG, or two. Mab will succeed, but not in everything. Harry is going to screw up her plans in some major fashion. Mab is thinking of replacing Harry with Thomas. She’s more than a little miffed that Harry won’t bend to her will and Thomas has much more obvious weak spots for her to apply pressure to. Of course, this possibility will be obviated if Thomas become a KotC.
I don't think Thomas is going to be coming out of stasis for a while, so Mab isn't going to be trading knights any time soon. (Already confirmed Harry is still the Knight in Christmas Eve).
Sure, she'd like him to be harsher, but she's not exactly going to be able to replace a Starborn, soulfire-wielding Warden of Demonreach off the shelf.
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I don't think Thomas is going to be coming out of stasis for a while, so Mab isn't going to be trading knights any time soon. (Already confirmed Harry is still the Knight in Christmas Eve).
Sure, she'd like him to be harsher, but she's not exactly going to be able to replace a Starborn, soulfire-wielding Warden of Demonreach off the shelf.
Exactly
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I do not doubt Mab has plans for Thomas, but having him in stasis is part of those plans, which means she knew about or predicted the Thomas situation but did not engineer it. Mab is spectacular at taking advantage of somebody else’s decisions to their detriment. Ask Nicky.
My guess is she put manoeuvred Marcone into hosting the Peace Talks, knowing full well the likely participants who would attend ( I think only River was unanticipated due to Harry’s intervention) white Court, Swartalves, White Council and who would be there for the White Court, Eb. She knew both Harry’s and Thomas’s living arrangements and knew of Eb’s views on Whamps and Swartalves, she just needed Eb to visit Harry at home when Thomas was there. It would indicate that Mab is ultimately behind the push to oust Harry as that is the urgent reason Eb had to visit Harry (Carlos didn’t raise it). Everything else on the Thomas incident arises from that. Thomas creates the excuse for Harry to go to Demonreach. Without the Thomas incident Harry would have been drafted by Eb and not made it to Demonreach. One of the first things, Eb does after Ethnui’s ultimatum ask where Harry is before it is even known Thomas is gone.
Mab works for more than one reason, she needed Harry of his own free will to go to Demonreach to pick up the weapons, despite being under favour to Lara and she needs to later on discredit Eb for some reason. If Eb is becoming unstable he needs to be relieved of the Blackstaff by the senior council, in circumstances where Harry will be awarded it by the Senior Council.
If the Blackstaff is Mother Winters walking Stick it can be returned to her, or it can be bestowed on another Wizard, she may intend Harry to take it to make him more her Knight, but I think he would reject it, he’s seen the effect on Eb and realises it would make it much easier for him to become a monster. He may instead return it to Mother Winter outplaying Mab and earning him a favour from her totally stymying Mab because if she ascends to being the Mother might herself have to repay that favour to Harry.
Mab may finally have outsmarted herself, which would gibe with Christmas Eve, she appears very contrite in paying funeral expenses/medical bills, and in providing a gift for Maggie. Very unlike her But does not appear herself, sending Molly. Harry finally has something over Mab, rather than the other way round. A favour from Mother Winter would do it.
Setting aside the Black Staff , which would allow Harry to kill Marcone without consequence would show Marcone that Harry will not kill him in cold blood ever. That may affect the disposition of the BFS building. Marcone is very dismissive of the “so-called” White Council in Even Hand.
By making it clear to the White Council that the Laws of Magic apply to all Harry would be seeking rescue their reputation. No more executions, No more black ops breaking the Laws.
Perhaps Harry will not be the Winter Knight Mab wants, but he may end up being the Winter Knight Mother Winter wants, a check on Mab. Mab won’t have been allowed to know what went on between Harry and the Mothers, the one person who could out Mab Mab is Mother Winter, with Harry intervention.
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Perhaps Harry will not be the Winter Knight Mab wants, but he may end up being the Winter Knight Mother Winter wants, a check on Mab.
I doubt it. Everything Mab thinks about Harry not being enough of a monster? Mother Winter takes it even further.
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It depends on whether Mother Winter and Mother Summer feels that a Harry who is more of a monster is the right Harry for the job. They are an Intellectus, unlike Mab, and they may know better. Monster Harry may not succeed at BAT. Agonising over his actions Harry might.
A Harry who agonises over the consequences mat be just the Harry required, the Blackstaff may be construed as an emotional crutch to relieve Harry’s suffering, and Mother Winter certainly believes people should suffer.
The Mother Winters walking stick revelation may have been dropped by Mother Summer as part of their plan and not Mab’s
PT gave us also the first connection between Mab and the White Council in ancient times, she was in love with the Merlin. She likely gave the Blackstaff to the Merlin to allow him to shoulder the pain his actions were causing him. This is what Mother Winter considers her to be too gentle. Passing the Black Staff back to Mother Winter is not only a test for Harry, it’s a lesson for Mab. Mother Winter requires her to be more of a Monster.