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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on July 29, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
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In Peace Talks Harry says Vadderung looks rather sinister with his eye patch on.
Jim also tends to describe his darker "Mirror Mirror" universe with everyone being a darker version with eye patches and goatees.
Then there is the fact that Odin was actually a rather sinister and scary god in his day. Animal and human sacrifice was common, particularly by hanging (he is often known as the Gallows God - also because he hung himself). He was also considered mad and dangerous. Thor was the god of the common folk, and while the people respected Odin it was Thor who had their hearts. Odin was the god of death, battle, victory, prophecy, magic and wisdom. Berserkers (warriors who went into psychotic rages in battle that made them feel no pain and think they were animals...often through psychedelics) prayed to him and he was known for being a fickle god who might suddenly throw his weight behind the opposite side. He was jealous, power mad and vengeful. He often tricked others and played gambits on them.
Which flies in the face of the Vadderung we know. Vadderung supposedly walked among mortals as Beowulf and created a warrior culture. He also taught the original Merlin and clearly was involved with the creation of the White Council, an organization that has on the whole probably done more good than bad for humanity. He fights against the really bad guys, against Outsiders and monsters and Fallen. He also masquerades as the jolly Kringle. Not to mention he has helped Harry a lot when he really needed it and taken out the bad guys.
So is he really a bad guy? Was everything he has done to help Harry actually to unmake the world? Is it all a big con?
My gut says no. I think it's possible he wasn't always so nice...and perhaps Harry will find out some uncomfortable truths about him. Ethniu used to respect him - which says a lot if you think about it. Perhaps he has reformed a lot too.
But then again maybe that's just sells the con further. Maybe the Grey Council is really the Black Council. Maybe it's all murky.
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I have this old theory vadderung is actually Thor, not the original Odin per se. Trying to remember the details... The name is one, father of thunder, technically he fathered Thor, whose lightning, and lightning gives birth to thunder. I could be wrong but I don't remember Odin having a weather motif, but it storms when he shows up in CH. And indeed, Thor usually replaces his father as the all-father, least in marvel lol.
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I remember that theory. It's just that Jim said Thor is playing college football right now so it doesn't track. Not to mention Vadderung fits the Odin profile. I don't think it's odd that it storms when he shows up...I think that was literally more for atmosphere in the scene. But even if he did cause a storm, I don't think just because he isn't the god of storms doesn't mean he can't. Titania can do weather changes too etc.
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Titania makes sense as a weather Goddess though, especially considering what Mab does to the weather.(and their combined connection to older weather Goddesses) When did Jim say he's playing college football?!? Haven't heard that one before... The thing is, when he leaves pretty sure the storm goes with him, then it's just the fog HHWB4 brings in.
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He does act kinder in the Dresdenverse than he is typically shown to be in Norse mythos, but that could be from carrying Kringles Mantle assuming it wasn't his to begin with.
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The tales we have were already distorted by Christianity especially in how to interpret the stories. The people who wrote them down were already alien to the old way of thinking.
But the old gods were not good or evil, they were both because reality is both. The idea of an all good god is relatively new and introduced in Christianity.
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I am not saying that Vadderung is out and out Evil. But he was far harsher, more mercurial and more frightening.
But some were viewed as pure evil, and some as purely good. It all depends on which god, which tale, what time period it originated and even when it was eventually found.
Many gods change their stripes and natures through history. Set was once the defender of Ra and a prominent god. But when the priests and religions of upper and lower Egypt clashed, the stronger cults set the story and Set became a god of chaos and storms. Often this is the way and many of those old stories about a clash between old gods and the new represent a shift in beliefs as new religions pushed out the worship of the old ones. Forever that will be the way.
I would argue that an all good is actually a pretty old idea. What has changed is the definition and values associated with being good.
Even Christianity has changed. The god of the old testament is much harsher than the god of the new.
Sibelis - I get what you're saying, but it isn't actually stated that Vadderung causes the storm. It's mostly inferred by some readers but not even necessarily implied by Jim. It also isn't strange to see God's control things outside their various domains/portfolios. I can't find the quote now but basically it says Thor plays college football and changes teams every few years (and I assume has a new identity).
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I am not saying that Vadderung is out and out Evil. But he was far harsher, more mercurial and more frightening.
But some were viewed as pure evil,
They were rarely worshipped by those who saw them as purely evil.
and some as purely good.
Maybe you can find one but I doubt it. In their stories they had all their moments.
And even being seen as good is quite different from being seen as all good.
It all depends on which god, which tale, what time period it originated and even when it was eventually found.
Many gods change their stripes and natures through history. Set was once the defender of Ra and a prominent god. But when the priests and religions of upper and lower Egypt clashed, the stronger cults set the story and Set became a god of chaos and storms. Often this is the way and many of those old stories about a clash between old gods and the new represent a shift in beliefs as new religions pushed out the worship of the old ones. Forever that will be the way.
I would argue that an all good is actually a pretty old idea. What has changed is the definition and values associated with being good.
Greek and Norse gods had specific human flaws probably because they were seen as universal flaws.
They still defended earth against monsters.
Even Christianity has changed. The god of the old testament is much harsher than the god of the new.
The god of the Old Testament is only the Christian god in the eyes of the Christians. Historically there is a break and Greek thoughts were blended with Jewish thoughts to create Christianity. It is false to say Christianity has changed, Christianity was new.
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@Yuillegan...... You know... Everyone always harps on Jim Lies... But I've never truly believed it until just now... I think this might be an actual lie... You realize, Vadderung is described literally as looking like someone who used to play college football? Like, not just football, not just sports, but college football?!?
This just leaves me in a state of sheer disbelief, towards catching an actual possible lie...
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I believe that Odin is Odin. Remember that he also holds the Mantle of Santa Claus.
"Wodan's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (compare Odin's horse Sleipnir) or his reindeer in North American tradition.[27] Folklorist Margaret Baker maintains that "the appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is the 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild, became a leading player on the Christmas stage.""
I dont think Thor could hold that mantle because it's something that is intrinsically Odin.
As for Odin looking somewhat sinister, remember that he was across the hall from Ferrovax. In Odin's minds, i'm sure he was eyeballing that Wyrm like he wanted to cut him up and roast him on a spit.
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Odin looks "kind" because we've seen him be friendly with Harry, who we like, but remember that he's also backing Marcone, and now Lara. And the Erlking is his hunting buddy.
The "kindest" that we've seen him was in Changes, when he just flat out gave Harry the information he needed, rather than demanding payment -- but in retrospect, it looks more like he was using Harry as a cat's paw to set up the death blow of the Red Court. So it wasn't exactly charity.
Odin's on the right side, when it comes to the Outsiders, but heck, so is Nicodemus. Odin's just playing the smarter game of making Harry like him. As he says in Skin Game, it costs him nothing to be polite.
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@bacail... see Odin holding the all-father mantle, becoming capable of using his power, losing and eye, ect.
Or if you don't prescribe to that vein, like you pointed out the second half of mythologically Odin, Santa and Merlin are tied by the same thread, so Odin wasn't even Odin to begin with technically, he was Merlin. If you argued it the other way around, I might agree, but Santa is specifically just mantle, those are made to be worn. There's even Woj he has others work for him acting in his role, though it doesn't specify with his mantle, the role itself is shared all the same. Klaus the toymaker is one of his lackey's. You can hold more than one mantle, it's what the mother's do, and part of how Jim works with the Hindu gods, who all hold multiple Mantle's.
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Odin looks "kind" because we've seen him be friendly with Harry, who we like, but remember that he's also backing Marcone, and now Lara. And the Erlking is his hunting buddy.
The "kindest" that we've seen him was in Changes, when he just flat out gave Harry the information he needed, rather than demanding payment -- but in retrospect, it looks more like he was using Harry as a cat's paw to set up the death blow of the Red Court. So it wasn't exactly charity.
Odin's on the right side, when it comes to the Outsiders, but heck, so is Nicodemus. Odin's just playing the smarter game of making Harry like him. As he says in Skin Game, it costs him nothing to be polite.
Exactly true. Odin sees Harry as a useful tool or ally. They have in the past wanted the same things or similar done. I don't see Odin just helping Harry when the is no benefit to Odin. It would make no sense for Odin to be a jerk to Harry when Harry is getting things done for Odin. Remember, The Erlking is not nice, but was helpful and polite to Harry during the Wild Hunt fighting Outsiders. Their interests aligned.
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Exactly true. Odin sees Harry as a useful tool or ally. They have in the past wanted the same things or similar done. I don't see Odin just helping Harry when the is no benefit to Odin. It would make no sense for Odin to be a jerk to Harry when Harry is getting things done for Odin. Remember, The Erlking is not nice, but was helpful and polite to Harry during the Wild Hunt fighting Outsiders. Their interests aligned.
As Vadderung he is not Sidhe and he can support you just because he likes you, that is what gods did. And be fickle about it as well.
But maybe Harry can return the favor? Pagan religion is very much about giving and receiving. Sacrifices must be made. Harry can hang a few people?
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Yeah, Odin being friendly to Harry doesn't necessarily mean that he is "nice" overall - he hires Valkyries to Lara and Marcone.
And Odin is (among other things) the god of magic and battle fury. He has reason to like Harry, even apart from a Starborn's relevance to his plans... ;D
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I believe that Odin is Odin. Remember that he also holds the Mantle of Santa Claus.
And they each have their own persona; their own specific roles to play and the behavior that comes with it at certain times. Vadderung is Odin's made up persona for the modern age, a mysterious and powerful human owner and CEO of a high tech personal security company. And remember, that's how Harry first meets him, not as immortal god, but as a human CEO.
So even though many human CEO's aren't exactly warm and fuzzy human beings, they don't hold a candle to the type of being Odin is described as being. That's why it's not surprising that Vadderung can seem to Harry and us, like a more or less decent human being. That was part of the role he was playing with Harry then. It wasn't the role he was playing when he told Harry to "get out of the way" after their conversation was over in Skin Game or the role he was playing during the Wild Hunt in Cold Days. Harry probably made a good decision; if not for entirely the right reason, not to speak directly with Odin at the party. He might have found he was talking to an entirely different being than he was used to conversing with.
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That was because Vadderung asked him not to. He trusted he had his reasons.
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@bacail... see Odin holding the all-father mantle, becoming capable of using his power, losing and eye, ect.
Or if you don't prescribe to that vein, like you pointed out the second half of mythologically Odin, Santa and Merlin are tied by the same thread, so Odin wasn't even Odin to begin with technically, he was Merlin. If you argued it the other way around, I might agree, but Santa is specifically just mantle, those are made to be worn. There's even Woj he has others work for him acting in his role, though it doesn't specify with his mantle, the role itself is shared all the same. Klaus the toymaker is one of his lackey's. You can hold more than one mantle, it's what the mother's do, and part of how Jim works with the Hindu gods, who all hold multiple Mantle's.
Except Odin predates Merlin by over 1000 years, and according to Eb, who has Merlin's journals, Odin was a teacher to Merlin.
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Except Odin predates Merlin by over 1000 years, and according to Eb, who has Merlin's journals, Odin was a teacher to Merlin.
lmfao, no, no he doesn't. He predates the stories your familiar with. Actually look into his history. An sure, that's in the books. But it isn't necessarily accurate.
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lmfao, no, no he doesn't. He predates the stories your familiar with. Actually look into his history. An sure, that's in the books. But it isn't necessarily accurate.
There is evidence that Odin worship may have come about in the Bronze Age (3000-1200 BCE) and Merlin was said to live in the middle to late 6th century CE. Bit of a gap.
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There is evidence that Odin worship may have come about in the Bronze Age (3000-1200 BCE) and Merlin was said to live in the middle to late 6th century CE. Bit of a gap.
wodan, the earliest form of Odin, didn't come around until iirc 8th century. Soooo 🤷♂️ different name origin, different identity, probably the old Odin, which supports him being replaced then eh.
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wodan, the earliest form of Odin, didn't come around until iirc 8th century. Soooo 🤷♂️ different name origin, different identity, probably the old Odin, which supports him being replaced then eh.
"Odin appears as a prominent god throughout the recorded history of Northern Europe, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania (from c. 2 BCE) through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period (4th to 6th centuries CE) and the Viking Age (8th to 11th centuries CE)."
That's just from when the Romans decided to go poke that particular bear. there is more evidence that he was worshiped for hundreds, possibly a 1000 years before that. It's hard to pin down because those tribes back then mostly used Oral Tradition for a lot of things.
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". Odin probably originated in the myths of early Germanic peoples, who called him Wodan"
"Odin appears in many stories as a womaniser, even boasting of his affairs, reminiscent of (and perhaps inspired by?) Zeus from Greek mythology."
"recorded history of Northern Europe, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania (from c. 2 BCE) through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period (4th to 6th centuries CE) and the Viking Age (8th to 11th centuries CE). In the modern period the rural folklore of Germanic Europe continued to acknowledge Odin."
"narratives regarding Odin are mainly found in Old Norse works recorded in Iceland, primarily around the 13th century. These texts make up the bulk of modern understanding of Norse mythology."
"the Ęsir as a group, which includes both Thor and Odin, were late introductions into Northern Europe and that the indigenous religion of the region had been Vanic"
My scholars disagree with your scholars 🤷♂️
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It is difficult to tell when the worship of Odin/Wodan started but it seems to me that the rise of his cult was parallel with the rise of Germanic royalty because he is the god of kings and high nobility and their warriors.
All Anglo-Saxon kings according to Bede descended from Woden for example.
Those kings gained power because of continuous roman pressure (and opportunity for plunder) which resulted in bigger states with more centralized power. But he might have been a less important god before that. Also Tacitus might have referred to him but because of roman interpretation of foreign gods it is difficult to be sure.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Germanic-religion-and-mythology/Mythology
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It is difficult to tell when the worship of Odin/Wodan started but it seems to me that the rise of his cult was parallel with the rise of Germanic royalty because he is the god of kings and high nobility and their warriors.
All Anglo-Saxon kings according to Bede descended from Woden for example.
Those kings gained power because of continuous roman pressure (and opportunity for plunder) which resulted in bigger states with more centralized power. But he might have been a less important god before that. Also Tacitus might have referred to him but because of roman interpretation of foreign gods it is difficult to be sure.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Germanic-religion-and-mythology/Mythology
Yes, I've seen speculation that Tyr was actually the pre-eminent Scandic deity, once upon a time, before Odin rose to prominence.
On Dresden: I have been expecting for a long time that beneath all the mantles will be someone surprising. Balor is my most recent guess, but I'm not tossing out Gilgamesh. Heck, given Norse traditions revolving around how he learned seidr, might be a woman under there.
Mavra's the only other character as mysterious- why did she let Dresden go with a lesson, of all things? Did she not want the Blackstaff to make it personal and knew of the relationship? Is she family?
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The most interesting thing about Mavra to me is she's one of only two beings who appear exactly the same under his wizards sight, the other being Mister...
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Mavra's the only other character as mysterious- why did she let Dresden go with a lesson, of all things? Did she not want the Blackstaff to make it personal and knew of the relationship? Is she family?
In Blood Rites? Because she saw an opportunity to use Harry as proven in Dead Beat.
In Dead Beat? Because she was afraid of what Harry would do if really pressured. We have some idea of what the darkhallow might bring, We have a very good idea about what asking Mab for help might bring but only Harry and Mavra know what using necromancy against the black court means. It could be more scary for Mavra than the other two.
The black court vampires who survived the purge are not just powerful but also careful. Mavra won't risk herself easily. That is why she used Harry in dead beat.
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". Odin probably originated in the myths of early Germanic peoples, who called him Wodan"
"Odin appears in many stories as a womaniser, even boasting of his affairs, reminiscent of (and perhaps inspired by?) Zeus from Greek mythology."
"recorded history of Northern Europe, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania (from c. 2 BCE) through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period (4th to 6th centuries CE) and the Viking Age (8th to 11th centuries CE). In the modern period the rural folklore of Germanic Europe continued to acknowledge Odin."
"narratives regarding Odin are mainly found in Old Norse works recorded in Iceland, primarily around the 13th century. These texts make up the bulk of modern understanding of Norse mythology."
"the Ęsir as a group, which includes both Thor and Odin, were late introductions into Northern Europe and that the indigenous religion of the region had been Vanic"
My scholars disagree with your scholars 🤷♂️
yes, 2 BCE, 542 years before merlin supposedly was active. And that's just when the Romans encountered Odin. he was around earlier than that.
edit: clarity
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Vadderung operates a ruthless mercenary organization. Sure, maybe he's a nice guy to Dresden, but he's in no way whatsoever a "nice guy". His goals appear to coincide with Harry's, and that's why he is nice to Harry.
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In Dead Beat? Because she was afraid of what Harry would do if really pressured. We have some idea of what the darkhallow might bring
Yeah. And it's not just the Darkhallow; Mavra was talking to Harry directly there, not under a veil as in BR. She's probably not 100% sure she could survive a full-strength blast from him.
I mean, Mavra is a likely wizard-level practitioner herself, she could probably shield long enough to get out of sight with her superhuman speed.
But she probably didn't get to be centuries old by taking chances that she can just probably survive.
If she actually intended to kill Harry, she wouldn't start visible and facing him down. She'd probably send minions to shoot him or burn down the place he's staying.
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yes, 2 BCE, 542 years before merlin supposedly was active. And that's just when the Romans encountered Odin. he was around earlier than that.
edit: clarity
according to your timeline, but again. As Odin the wanderer and Merlin the wanderer are two very prominent and old pictures of each they are the same person, so saying Odin was active is actually saying Merlin was.. and after all, most of what we know comes from a 13th century where as Merlin came from 11th century, with his earliest direct reference in 579. Read the whole quote, according to modern folk lore, so according to now we think he was acknowledged... Posterity isn't available.