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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: guinnesshero on July 27, 2020, 11:19:26 PM
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Am I the only one that thinks Murphy is way over powered for a run on the mill human? No one out fights Murphy not even super naturals. No one out shoots Murphy. Heck in the last book she basically get torn apart and crippled has multiple surgeries, is in casts for months. She cuts hers casts off and after a hot bath is getting the better of a Valkyrie. Heck Harry is a wizard and after being messed up that bad had to take on the mantle of the winter knight to fix it all Murphy needs is a hot bath.
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Bump because somehow I missed this one.
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A hot bath administered by Harry. He just kept quiet and let Murphy think it was magic. It’s Dumbo’s magic feather.
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It's not a matter of being overpowered, it's a matter of attitude... And that thing with the Valkyrie was probably easy to do, because she was being underestimated. That gives you a natural edge you wouldn't have otherwise.
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She cuts hers casts off and after a hot bath is getting the better of a Valkyrie.
Well, it's not like she actually won a fight vs. a Valkyrie. In one case she acted really fast when Freydis just wasn't expecting her to be a threat, and impressed Freydis; there was no actual fight. In the other she pulled the pins on grenades and Freydis jumped away to escape.
She didn't actually go full on martial arts against Freydis in either case.
She's lost strength and flexibility from her injuries, but her tactical thinking is as good as ever. And her reaction time still seems super good.
Heck Harry is a wizard and after being messed up that bad had to take on the mantle of the winter knight to fix it
Harry had a broken back, spinal cord damage. I don't think Murphy had nerve damage.
And, more importantly, Murphy isn't back to normal capability now, months after SG. In Changes Harry had to act that day. And normal Harry might not have been enough to win anyway.
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Am I the only one that thinks Murphy is way over powered for a run on the mill human? No one out fights Murphy not even super naturals. No one out shoots Murphy. Heck in the last book she basically get torn apart and crippled has multiple surgeries, is in casts for months. She cuts hers casts off and after a hot bath is getting the better of a Valkyrie. Heck Harry is a wizard and after being messed up that bad had to take on the mantle of the winter knight to fix it all Murphy needs is a hot bath.
1] Not quite true, Nic beat the living crap out of her, that is why she was still in casts and may only come back fifty percent at best..
2] She got the drop on the Valkyrie, a couple of quick hand to hand moves. We don't know whether or not the Valkyrie let her win, she didn't even try to fight back, no point in pissing Harry off. Also if it had been a prolonged hand to hand fight I doubt Murphy would have even come close to winning. Remember the Valkyrie then slowed her pace as they moved across the park because Murphy could barely keep up at a normal walk.
3] I still say the bullet that took out Maeve was Mab aimed and fired..
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It's the planning. Harry mentions in..Storm Front?..that wizards can handle nearly anything with enough foresight and time to prepare.
It's why Freydis and Gard both noticed her. She's Valkyrie-grade material.
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A warm bath has "magical" restorative powers that have nothing to do with actual magic :D
There are hints that she's actually in a bit of pain. She may be holding it back probably for Harry's sake or as a matter of pride.
I'm in the "she's smart, quick and underestimated" camp when it comes to her abilities against supernatural powers
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Am I the only one that thinks Murphy is way over powered for a run on the mill human? No one out fights Murphy not even super naturals. No one out shoots Murphy. Heck in the last book she basically get torn apart and crippled has multiple surgeries, is in casts for months. She cuts hers casts off and after a hot bath is getting the better of a Valkyrie. Heck Harry is a wizard and after being messed up that bad had to take on the mantle of the winter knight to fix it all Murphy needs is a hot bath.
I think we discount the power of normal vanilla humans a bit too much when discussing the Dresden files. With all the magic, demons, angels, fallen, faeries, gods and outsiders that has been taking up page count recently mere vanilla has been a bit underrated. The wisest supernatural beings like Vadderung however knows to fear vanilla mortals, or at least not to underestimate them.
JB's story always emphasize the importance of mind and will power over sheer muscle, magical or otherwise. Vanilla mortals, at least people like Murphy and marcone, are not lacking in both mind and will. Their physical strength and lack of magical power is indeed a limitation, but it does not reduce their danger level. Most vanilla are so much a soft target because they often panic when danger comes, not because they are truly helpless.
Being able to benchpress 10 tons is not as important as knowing when, where, how and why to use that force. An. If you lack power, you can always borrow, ask for help or in Marcone's case simply hire them with lots of money or by trading favors. In other words, power can be aquired. Wisdom, experience, courage and perceverence however is something innate to each person.
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Being able to benchpress 10 tons is not as important as knowing when, where, how and why to use that force. An. If you lack power, you can always borrow, ask for help or in Marcone's case simply hire them with lots of money or by trading favors. In other words, power can be aquired. Wisdom, experience, courage and perceverence however is something innate to each person.
Or sheer will power, the force advantage Harry seems to have over most of his opponents. In Murphy's case, she did a ten second power move, surprised her opponent, who really didn't fight back and won. However the rest of the time she was mostly moving on gut power, in a fight, especially hand to hand to the death, gut power and skill will only take her so far, her unhealed body will fail at some point.
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The advantage for vanilla mortals is free will, the strength of that will is another matter. Someone like Marcone is an outlier.
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The advantage for vanilla mortals is free will, the strength of that will is another matter. Someone like Marcone is an outlier.
Marcone is a natural leader, he has a level of charisma, people will follow him. He is also ruthless, and ambitious, along with a keen intelligence has allowed him to take over the crime territory in Chicago and made him a valued member of the Accords. Strength of will carries him a long way because he motivates others by that will.
Murphy is none of those things, at best she is a so so leader, her time trying to head the Justice League was proof of that. Murphy is a good and cunning fighter, but she doesn't inspire or do much to motivate others, she is a soldier, not a general. She exercises her free will to the full extent, she is very strong in that aspect, however her physical strength has always had limits. She has always seemingly comes out on top physically because she has used her intelligence and bravery to best advantage. But when she makes a mistake, like she did up against Nic, she was toast.
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Or sheer will power, the force advantage Harry seems to have over most of his opponents. In Murphy's case, she did a ten second power move, surprised her opponent, who really didn't fight back and won. However the rest of the time she was mostly moving on gut power, in a fight, especially hand to hand to the death, gut power and skill will only take her so far, her unhealed body will fail at some point.
In my opinion, if Murphy does not know what she is doing, it really does not matter whether she is injured or not. Most if not all of her future opponents would have so much power advantage over her making any decrease or increase cause by her injury irrelevant if it really come to a fair fight. The keyword here being "Fair"
But it is different if she know what she is doing. She is the one who shoot Maeve dead. How could she do it? Because Mab help to untie her. The Question is: why Murphy? Why not untie another person?
There is a time and place for everything and for anyone. In my opinion, , Murphy's main advantage is her seemingly unthreatening nature. She is a vanilla. She is tiny and now she is injured to boot. In the eyes of most supernatural powers, she is no more remarkable than a pebble on the road. The more powerful the being is, the more they would likely to ignore someone like Murphy.
In gaming terms, Murphy most likely have some kind of stealth bonus.
Probably why Mab choose to free her in CD, because Maeve probably would have notice if Mab try to free someone else, like fix for example. Murphy are likely to be dismissed out of hand, because in the mind of the powerful she couldn't have done anything even if she is freed.
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Probably why Mab choose to free her in CD, because Maeve probably would have notice if Mab try to free someone else, like fix for example. Murphy are likely to be dismissed out of hand, because in the mind of the powerful she couldn't have done anything even if she is freed.
All of that, plus Murphy still had a gun on her, and she is trained in "shoot to kill." However none of it would have been possible if Mab hadn't freed her in the first place.
In my opinion, if Murphy does not know what she is doing, it really does not matter whether she is injured or not. Most if not all of her future opponents would have so much power advantage over her making any decrease or increase cause by her injury irrelevant if it really come to a fair fight. The keyword here being "Fair"
I doubt the fights in the next book are going to be fair.
There is a time and place for everything and for anyone. In my opinion, , Murphy's main advantage is her seemingly unthreatening nature. She is a vanilla. She is tiny and now she is injured to boot. In the eyes of most supernatural powers, she is no more remarkable than a pebble on the road. The more powerful the being is, the more they would likely to ignore someone like Murphy.
But in the mayhem of the battle field?
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But in the mayhem of the battle field?
Martin got a whole bit in Changes about how looking like you're not threatening in the middle of a big fight with obvious threats running around is it's own form of armour, so yes the non-threatening bit still applies.
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Martin got a whole bit in Changes about how looking like you're not threatening in the middle of a big fight with obvious threats running around is it's own form of armour, so yes the non-threatening bit still applies.
Yeah, maybe, she is small but Murphy usually doesn't act non threatening. Maeve got shot because in her over confident insanity she failed to fully disarm her prisoners. A gun is a great equalizer it doesn't care if the finger pulling the trigger belongs to a six foot tall linebacker or a five foot hundred pound woman. Maeve didn't overlook Murphy, she overlooked the gun and she overlooked Mab.
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Am I the only one that thinks Murphy is way over powered for a run on the mill human?
No. Well, maybe not "way" over powered, but overpowered.
All of that, plus Murphy still had a gun on her, and she is trained in "shoot to kill."
Technically she's trained in "shoot to incapacitate," to aim at center mass. It's just that the result is often death. She leaves the fancy shots up to the boys in SWAT. I think that's pretty close to a direct quote from Murphy.
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No. Well, maybe not "way" over powered, but overpowered.
Technically she's trained in "shoot to incapacitate," to aim at center mass. It's just that the result is often death. She leaves the fancy shots up to the boys in SWAT. I think that's pretty close to a direct quote from Murphy.
We also know she is a bit of a "dead eye dick" so she is capable of fancy shots. I think though this was at very close range if I remember correctly so the head shot may have been easier to pull off than the body shot. Also, cannot remember exactly, but did or didn't Harry tell her that Mab wanted Maeve dead? Add that Maeve had just shot Lily dead, so well motivated to shoot to kill.
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All of that, plus Murphy still had a gun on her, and she is trained in "shoot to kill." However none of it would have been possible if Mab hadn't freed her in the first place.I doubt the fights in the next book are going to be fair.
But in the mayhem of the battle field?
Mab have to free her and she also has to be able to take the opportunity. That alone is a skill.
What I want to say is that even the likes of Murphy could have her uses in the right time and place. The smallest nail could possibly end up determining the victory or defeat of the battle.
And Indeed. If you put Murphy in the front charge as some kind of infantry soldier, Murphy would be dead. At this rate, a turtle neck goon would pose more danger to Murphy compare to Ethniu. But chances are high that Murphy would not be in such a frontline charge.
She is following Harry. Which means she is going to conduct special operations type of activity instead of an infantry charge. She is going to be there facing the big baddies with Harry beside her in a relatively not so chaotic battle. And Harry as we know, has max out his taunting and drawing Aggro skill. Add Murphy's own stealth bonus I mentioned before,, she has a reasonably decent chance to survive as long as Harry could draw hate and tank properly which should provide opportunities Murphy could capitalize.
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We have already had a whole series of scenes where Harry used a potion to appear to be background and unimportant. He was unimportant to Ethnui but the Athame and the swords won’t be, and her attention will be drawn to those.
We also had the whole misdirection shtick as well, so I presume Harry will bring on Mac to misdirect. Getting Mac may be Murphys job, she understands family and divorce. Murphy “So he helped kill your father, my SECOND ex-husband married my YOUNGER sister!” Ethnui “the b@stard!”
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Mab have to free her and she also has to be able to take the opportunity. That alone is a skill.
What I want to say is that even the likes of Murphy could have her uses in the right time and place. The smallest nail could possibly end up determining the victory or defeat of the battle.
And Indeed. If you put Murphy in the front charge as some kind of infantry soldier, Murphy would be dead. At this rate, a turtle neck goon would pose more danger to Murphy compare to Ethniu. But chances are high that Murphy would not be in such a frontline charge.
She is following Harry. Which means she is going to conduct special operations type of activity instead of an infantry charge. She is going to be there facing the big baddies with Harry beside her in a relatively not so chaotic battle. And Harry as we know, has max out his taunting and drawing Aggro skill. Add Murphy's own stealth bonus I mentioned before,, she has a reasonably decent chance to survive as long as Harry could draw hate and tank properly which should provide opportunities Murphy could capitalize.
Except she isn't physically up to any of that. She proved that in Peace Talks, oh there were a couple of brief flashes, but she isn't up to what you describe above.
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Murphy won’t even be able to drive for Harry, all cars in Chicago are done, and even if the Munstermobile is working she can’t reach the pedals. He even mentions it is a dinosaur resistant to a lot of magic and survives Harry’s veil.
Talking of dinosaurs this why I think Sue will be in play, Dresden steering with Murphy, Lara and Freydis behind him in that exact order. Harry doesn’t trust Lara and Murphy doesn’t trust Freydis . Sues top speed is about twice that of Harrys’ and whilst Freydis and Lara could keep up, Murphy couldn’t
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Murphy won’t even be able to drive for Harry, all cars in Chicago are done, and even if the Munstermobile is working she can’t reach the pedals. He even mentions it is a dinosaur resistant to a lot of magic and survives Harry’s veil.
Talking of dinosaurs this why I think Sue will be in play, Dresden steering with Murphy, Lara and Freydis behind him in that exact order. Harry doesn’t trust Lara and Murphy doesn’t trust Freydis . Sues top speed is about twice that of Harrys’ and whilst Freydis and Lara could keep up, Murphy couldn’t
One still has to climb up on a dinosaur, even if Sue got on her belly, Murphy's knee and shoulder are still not functioning very well for climbing and pulling up. Harry could lift her up I suppose, but if he has to do that, she isn't in good enough physical shape.
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Freydis would very willingly give her a leg up.
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Freydis would very willingly give her a leg up.
Yeah, but Murphy might think she is hitting on her... ::)
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Yeah, but Murphy might think she is hitting on her... ::)
If Harry calls Sue he will need a drummer.
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Yeah, but Murphy might think she is hitting on her... ::)
Freydis will be hitting on her.
Not sure whether a drummer would be required, this isn’t a zombie version, no bones for one thing, but Murphy would call Shotgun (or more accurately P90)
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Martin got a whole bit in Changes about how looking like you're not threatening in the middle of a big fight with obvious threats running around is it's own form of armour, so yes the non-threatening bit still applies.
Martin was also physically fit, and he was playing both sides.
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Not sure whether a drummer would be required, this isn’t a zombie version, no bones for one thing
It could be... the skeleton is still in the Field Museum isn't it?
But Harry might infuse it with Soulfire and make it more alive, possibly, and then it might not need a drummer.
But I don't know if Sue will show up at all, the Council is already concerned about Harry, and it's not strictly necessary the way it was in DB.
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Yes, Sue is still in residence but this would take a diversion to the Field Museum when time is of the essence, and it fits the circumstances given all modern vehicles are kaput, and the city is dark very like Dead Beat which it should remind him of.
Besides it provides a love interest for Ferrovax, which would be an interesting sub-plot.
Jim has said Sue would return, this would be the obvious point and conjuritis is obviously for something, perhaps Harry will sneeze out four bicycles. Besides Jim would just love the agony of Harry sneezing out a dinosaur and having to clear the ectoplasm from his sinus’s. Jim lives to hurt and embarrass Harry in new ways, his creations must suffer. The question is whether Harry is going to claim he did it on purpose or admit that it was an accident.
Note they went to the Marina in a rented car because Murphy’s feet don’t reach the pedals of the Munstermobile. So the rented car they travelled in would have been a bust.
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Yes, Sue is still in residence but this would take a diversion to the Field Museum when time is of the essence, and it fits the circumstances given all modern vehicles are kaput, and the city is dark very like Dead Beat which it should remind him of.
Maybe not much of a diversion. If I'm reading the map correctly, the Field Museum is right on the waterfront, right next to the Shedd Aquarium -- which has some metaphysical weight after Lucifer's massive infusion of hellfire there in Small Favor, so it's a reasonable place to expect Ethniu to make landfall.
And both are right next to Burnham Harbor piers are also right there. That's where the boat is moored. So... really... the Field Museum is *right there* when they get back to Chicago.
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Or if things get too bad, Mr Ferro will revert to his true dragon form and let Harry ride him. It would be like if Bibo was able to ride Smag,or possibly Game of Thrones. 8)
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Jim has said Sue would return
Ah, I'd forgotten that!
and conjuritis is obviously for something,
I was going with the theory that it's a clue that Maggie is developing wizard powers.
But yeah, a conjuritis-created dinosaur wouldn't have Fifth Law issues.
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And it is nothing to be sneezed at.
Which givens Jim’s and Harry’s love of wordplay I would think has a high likelihood of being used.
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But yeah, a conjuritis-created dinosaur wouldn't have Fifth Law issues.
However it would have the disadvantage of melting into a tidal wave of ectoplasm an hour
after forming. Imagine Harry riding down the street, Sue roaring away, then suddenly she melts into a sea of snot... ::) It gives slip and slide a whole new meaning....
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However it would have the disadvantage of melting into a tidal wave of ectoplasm an hour
after forming. Imagine Harry riding down the street, Sue roaring away, then suddenly she melts into a sea of snot... ::) It gives slip and slide a whole new meaning....
If it was that easy nobody would create zombies.
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If it was that easy nobody would create zombies.
Soulfire, Harry may be the only wizard with access to Soulfire at this time, and therefore the only wizard able to do this once it has been conjured. Soulfire should not only allow him to stabilise his constructs, but to control them as well. Sue would be uncontrollable until he puts some Soulfire in her, unless Butters turns up with Bob.
I think Freydis getting to ride on Sue would make her upgrade Harry to at least an 8. She wouldn’t be the first woman to be impressed by a dude with his own means of transport.
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I think Freydis getting to ride on Sue would make her upgrade Harry to at least an 8. She wouldn’t be the first woman to be impressed by a dude with his own means of transport.
That is so sexist! ::)
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Soulfire, Harry may be the only wizard with access to Soulfire at this time, and therefore the only wizard able to do this once it has been conjured. Soulfire should not only allow him to stabilise his constructs, but to control them as well. Sue would be uncontrollable until he puts some Soulfire in her, unless Butters turns up with Bob.
I think Freydis getting to ride on Sue would make her upgrade Harry to at least an 8. She wouldn’t be the first woman to be impressed by a dude with his own means of transport.
A winged horse can fly!
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I refer you to Murphy on the subject of motorcycles in Cold Days. Sue would eat a winged horse for breakfast, unfortunately literally.
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I refer you to Murphy on the subject of motorcycles in Cold Days. Sue would eat a winged horse for breakfast, unfortunately literally.
Only if she gets close enough. Fly!
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We also know she is a bit of a "dead eye dick" so she is capable of fancy shots. I think though this was at very close range if I remember correctly so the head shot may have been easier to pull off than the body shot. Also, cannot remember exactly, but did or didn't Harry tell her that Mab wanted Maeve dead? Add that Maeve had just shot Lily dead, so well motivated to shoot to kill.
Murphy is an excellent shot. She's got trophies and everything. I don't know what kind of competitions she shoots in, but she uses a .22 (for which she handloads, sigh), so it's not something like three gun or cowboy action.
When shooting an immortal, there's no kill like over-kill.
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Murphy is an excellent shot. She's got trophies and everything. I don't know what kind of competitions she shoots in, but she uses a .22 (for which she handloads, sigh), so it's not something like three gun or cowboy action.
When shooting an immortal, there's no kill like over-kill.
All I am saying, depending on the angle and head shot may have been easier. A good shot goes for the target presented, and easiest to hit.
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Yeah, but she'd also probably go for the head when dealing with any practitioner if she had the chance at all, even if center mass was available. Like she did in Aftermath.
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Yeah, but she'd also probably go for the head when dealing with any practitioner if she had the chance at all, even if center mass was available. Like she did in Aftermath.
I am not arguing the point, but considering angles it might have been the easier shot, is all I am saying.
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I'm agreeing with your point and saying that are additional reasons for the head shot. More of an "and" than an "either/or."