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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Greywolf on July 26, 2020, 02:17:03 AM
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Could the British prisoner on Demonreach be King Arthur?
We know the prisoners on Demonreach are very powerful. In Skin Game, he says he’s “someone who needs to be here”, indicating both that he has done something monstrous and considers himself monstrous because of it.
King Arthur’s greatest crime was one that’s less well known in Arthurian legends: that he had tons of children, babies, fruitlessly killed. After Merlin told him that a child born on May Day would destroy Arthur (unknown to Arthur at the time, it was his incest-born son, Mordred), Arthur then rounded up all the newborn noble children born around that day, put them on a ship, and had it sunk, killing them all. It would make a lot of sense if it’s the thing Arthur regrets most in his life, especially since it didn’t kill Mordred, who still went on to destroy Arthur and Camelot, and so he killed the children for nothing.
(I will admit that a large part of my theory here has been influenced by Guy Gavriel Kay’s Fionavar Tapestry, which uses that part of Arthurian legend to great, excellent effect.)
I’m sure also that in the Dresdenverse, Arthur may not have been the saint the stories make him out to be; who knows why he might deserve to be held on Demonreach? Maybe we’ll find out.
King Arthur’s death story also has him, mortally wounded, being borne away on a boat in a lake to a mysterious island where he won’t die. Like, to an island where he’ll be kept...in stasis.
We will eventually need a wielder for Excalibur Amoracchius. Maybe he’ll help Thomas to wield it? Maybe Harry will release him for the BAT?
Just throwing the thought out there.
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..... well damn. That actually makes a lot of sense.
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I think he is the original Merlin. According to Bulfinch's Mythology the Lady of the Lake entrapped
him in a thorn bush and he still sleeps but his voice can still be heard from time to time.. That sort of fits our man, don't ya think?
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It could be Arthur, or Merlin, or almost anyone, really. Hell, it could be Mordred. We don't have much to go on.
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The alternate theory on Merlin was that he was trapped in a rock rather than a thorn bush, by Nimue the lady of the Lake, which fits even better, especially if Mab at one time was Nimue.
Merlin is trapped because if out he would cause Mab to remember love weakening her as Ethnui did in their exchange mentioning Merlin? She definitely lost focus. This would suggest the Prisoner did it to himself to preserve Mab’s power, and put him out of her reach, she didn’t do it to him, he did it for her. The woman is always the villain in mythology due to well, too many bitter and single academics who couldn’t get a date.
Merlin was a time traveller, so him knowing contemporary English isn’t a shock, and he is on the sanity preserving contemplation protocol (alone with Thomas)
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I had always thought he was Merlin but I had not considered he could be Arthur. It actually makes sense, but after what we know now, that Mab loved Merlin, it is more probable that he is Merlin. Perhaps she is not Nimue but Morgan LeFay herself. Or perhaps Margaret LeFay was a reincarnation of something of Morgana, which would make Harry the "Mordred". Who knows? we will need to keep reading.
Both Arthur and Merlin would be just allowing the time to run without them, so they could be available when needed again. Arthur's legend (or most of them) say that he will be back when England needs him more. Perhaps we could say that now the entire humanity is in danger so perhaps it is time for him to be back. But perhaps not, perhaps that will only happen in the BAT (when, I am guessing, all the inmates will be freed)
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Eb’s journals run all the way back to Merlin, Master to Apprentice, if a Eb is taken down, Harry would get them and start adding to them.
“I had been industriously committing my case files to the spare journals my grandfather had left me, along with his journals and the journals of his master and so on, back to the original Merlin. So far I had used 15 up setting out my major cases, but events mean’t that I had, had to put this aside for 5 years.
“Hells Bells” I exclaimed “I am going to have to use two journals for the whole Titan mess, the publisher isn’t going to like, that it will push the price to over $50 for a single volume.”
“I know, I will split the case in two, and publish them separately, the readers will understand.”
Sadly, to my ultimate cost, the readers did not understand, and there was a weeping, and a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.”
The above is entirely a work of fiction.
If they detail the whole sorry romance between the Merlin and Mab, then Bob has a new romance novel to get excited about.
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When Susan meets Michael she asks if he's a knight of Arthurian legend that's been sleeping while awaiting the end of time or some such. I think that's a cluebat to the British prisoner... I'll go with Lancelot or Gawain personally. Gawain Commando lol
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Well, I am pretty sure they still will need the grial.
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Yes the Grail is a purifier, it can destroy a Nemesis infection as well as other things, like kill or cure a hunger. This means Harry having to seek out Nicky for the sake of Thomas. Harry has been researching his superweapons, he just hasn’t done it “on screen”, he knew in PT what he wanted and why he wanted them.
If the British Prisoner is Arthurian then he can give information on the powers of the Grail, significantly, the only one of the superweapons linked with Arthurian lore. Expect Harry to try and get the Knights of the. Blackened Denarius say “Ni” and for Butters to go completely Black Night on Nicky’s ass with the Faithsaber with him and Harry voicing the full scene.
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..... well damn. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Thanks! 😊
Re: thinking it’s Merlin, there’s a Word of Jim that it’s confirmed not to be Merlin. Hence me thinking about Arthur. I’ll see if I can find it.
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The more I think about it, the more likely it's Lancelot... He supposedly grew up on Avalon which is paralleled to DR, and he would be the one who survived and became a shadow of remorse for his actions. Even his name, Lancelot Du Lac, of the lake.
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Lancelot was French.
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Lancelot was French.
he originated in a French writing, not quite the same, he was also considered a later version of a Celtic hero, or a God of thunder and lightning, which would give him the all important parallels that Harry has to others.
He's also quite well known for having gone mad...
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I personally agree that Arthur is probably the likeliest candidate, with Merlin being disavowed by WoJ.
Presumably, Arthur would have a bit of a language barrier, but then we have the whole 'Piss Off' comment, like a guy trying out a slang term he's unfamiliar with. With Merlin apparently running through time all over the place, picking up a language and filling in Arthur on it doesn't seem too convoluted. Particularly if Merlin had some long-term plan in motion.
Another thing I noticed is right after Harry interacts with the British Figure, he suddenly gets a Parasite Headache, that takes an unusually long period of time to be resolved by Demonreach. The paranoid side of me wonders if that may have been deliberate on the part of "Alfred", to throw Harry off of too much investigation into an area that might have endangered Merlin's planning.
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My hope would be Mordred.
Arthur's heir. Born of a sin he's not responsible for, but by right of birth and debatably conquest, Pendragon.
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My hope would be Mordred.
Arthur's heir. Born of a sin he's not responsible for, but by right of birth and debatably conquest, Pendragon.
Here here! I could see Butcher doing a decent Mordred storyline as a tragic hero that's misunderstood but forced by fate and destiny to play a role he does not wish for.
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My problem with the theory that Jim's going to bring a hero of legend in from the bench like that is that he hasn't really set it up. He's laid the ground work for Odin to be involved. I just don't see it for Merlin or Arthur. It's kind of the opposite of making sure the mentor character can't be around for all the big challenges.
I can see a villain coming in out of the blue much more easily.
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I don't think the British Prisoner, even if he is Arthur, is going to be coming out of the cell any time soon. He's waiting for a different apocalyptic prophecy. But that doesn't mean he can't be a mentor to Thomas while he's in lockup, assuming Thomas recovers enough to have conversations.
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Presumably, Arthur would have a bit of a language barrier, but then we have the whole 'Piss Off' comment, like a guy trying out a slang term he's unfamiliar with. With Merlin apparently running through time all over the place, picking up a language and filling in Arthur on it doesn't seem too convoluted.
Isn't it basically telepathic communication anyway? If it's Arthur, he might just come across to Harry as sounding British because Arthur is an archetypically British figure. Doesn't necessarily mean he actually speaks English with a modern British accent.
If it *is* Arthur, would that mean Demonreach is Avalon?
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Isn't it basically telepathic communication anyway? If it's Arthur, he might just come across to Harry as sounding British because Arthur is an archetypically British figure. Doesn't necessarily mean he actually speaks English with a modern British accent.
If it *is* Arthur, would that mean Demonreach is Avalon?
More like Avalon's evil twin... Nolava! ;D
Edit: Or somewhat less incredibly goofy, Winter's counterpart to Summers Avalon. ;)
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Nolava made me laugh.
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Good to see you Dina. ;)
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Eb’s journals run all the way back to Merlin, Master to Apprentice, if a Eb is taken down, Harry would get them and start adding to them.
That kind of depends whether he has time to update his will between PT and his eventual death. As things stand now, I can't see him trusting Harry with that.
Re: thinking it’s Merlin, there’s a Word of Jim that it’s confirmed not to be Merlin. Hence me thinking about Arthur. I’ll see if I can find it.
There is, but a direct question "is the prisoner Merlin" is something he'd almost have to lie about to preserve the surprise. "I'm not gonna tell you" instead of "no" to a specific question like that still gives it away.
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Jim is not Fae, despite the blue hair.
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I don't think the British Prisoner, even if he is Arthur, is going to be coming out of the cell any time soon. He's waiting for a different apocalyptic prophecy. But that doesn't mean he can't be a mentor to Thomas while he's in lockup, assuming Thomas recovers enough to have conversations.
That works for me. I just don't see Jim bringing in someone from legend on Harry's side without a lot of setup limiting how they can and cannot help him.
That kind of depends whether he has time to update his will between PT and his eventual death. As things stand now, I can't see him trusting Harry with that.
In my experience, he will not have time to update his will. Updating wills is most often something people talk about doing more than they do.
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Given Alfred's reaction to fresh blood the prisoner has been there some time, which kinda puts the faux English accent to the test.
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There is, but a direct question "is the prisoner Merlin" is something he'd almost have to lie about to preserve the surprise. "I'm not gonna tell you" instead of "no" to a specific question like that still gives it away.
From my recall of it, someone asked Jim if Merlin would have had a British accent, and Jim chuckled and said (something to the effect of), “His accent would be so archaic that it would sound more like gobbledygook than British. And no, the prisoner on Demonreach isn’t Merlin.” Like he was specific about Merlin, but the question wasn’t that direct - makes me think it’s not a misdirect.
Do we think the prisoner will communicate at all during Battle Ground? I’m thinking probably not, considering that Harry has already left the island to go back to Chicago for the battle, and by the time he hopefully draws Ethniu all the way out there, he won’t exactly have time to head downstairs and chat up the guy for tips on how to fight a goddess.
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Perhaps it is a much younger Arthur Langtrey (say 200 years younger) and the Person we have been assuming is The Merlin, isn’t. It’s Cowl. Cowl was the former Warden, somehow corrupted by tapping into the power of Demonreach (Harry has been warned), and eventually divorced from Alfred because of it.
He deserves to be there because he was tricked into it, and may not realise Harry is a different Warden. Through in a Body swap and entirely possible, Cowl is keeping his original younger body as a backup.
It would be very Jim to say he isn’t The Merlin, when in fact it is a Merlin.
Of course Turncoat needs explaining under this scenario.
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Does anyone else find it odd that when we have Outsider dialogue it usually done with a British accent?
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Not really, Harry has watched waaaay to many movies with a British actor as a bad guy.
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Not really, Harry has watched waaaay to many movies with a British actor as a bad guy.
Or Jim has... ::)
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Does anyone else find it odd that when we have Outsider dialogue it usually done with a British accent?
Seems natural to me. Sharkface isn't the kind of guy served at breakfast
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As I said Harry has watched waaayy too many movies with a British villain, so a telepathic voice from a previously unknown villain is automatically processed through his language centre of his brain as British, that part of his brain is stuck that way. The British Prisoner is not necessarily British as a consequence, he only sounds it, because of Harry’s brain damage. He or she could be anyone.It doesn’t help that Binder actually sounds like the late Bob Hoskins, it reinforces Harry’s brain damage delusion to have an actual villain conform to the stereotype.
I would keep an eye on The Merlin, whose telepathic voice in Turncoat, yes, included a British accent. I bet everyone else heard it in their native language and accent, or Latin.
On this basis the “British” Prisoner could be anyone and the accent is a red herring.
For all we know it is actually Oberon, and this was the only way to get out of the Mab/Titania love triangle unscathed. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that.