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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: huangjimmy108 on July 17, 2020, 06:49:31 AM
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Why do I feel that what happened to Thomas in book 16 is Thomas's metamorphosis?
Book 12 and book13 is Harry's metamorphosis. Your friendly neighbourhood wizard private investigator is gone, replace with arcane winter knight Harry.
I feel Thomas is going through the same process. The chance that Thomas taking up the sword of love has risen from about 30% to about 80% if my guts can be trusted.
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I agree with your analysis. That could be exactly what Jim is setting up.
On another, darker subject, Thomas has to feed. In his condition he might even be dangerous to a creature that more or less shrugs off his feeding, like a swartalf. Plus, at the moment there aren't any swartalves that would want to do Thomas any favors. Who does that leave? A female bigfoot? I'm not seeing that happening. How about a Titan? I suppose after she was subdued, but even with Thomas doing his incubus thing, that has a real creepy rape element to it.
I tried thinking about how taking up the Sword of Faith might alter things but I think Thomas has to physically heal first, and that requires that he has to feed.
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Depends on what Thomas becomes, his hunger feeds on life force, repelled by love what if instead it fed on love and repelled by eating lifeforce? From incubus to outccubus (yes I realise if this applied to a succubus they would become a bloccubus), a cupid in effect. This would solve Thomas’s problem with Justine, power his hunger and allow him to heal.
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The Hunger dies out or it doesn't happen.
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Assuming he doesn't die, this would seem to be his redemption arc. Maybe his cell buddy will know how to cure him. But Thomas as a vampire, can't survive. And who knows, maybe the demon will starve to death.
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Assuming he doesn't die, this would seem to be his redemption arc. Maybe his cell buddy will know how to cure him. But Thomas as a vampire, can't survive. And who knows, maybe the demon will starve to death.
That could be, but supposedly it is in stasis as well. Didn't Harry stipulate to Alfred that no one was to communicate with Thomas unless they were in the same boat? So unless there are other severely wounded vampires with a Hunger Demon inside of them, no one is going to communicate. Now Harry set the "punishment" as contemplation of the harm he has cause for Thomas. Now while Thomas early in the series tried not to feed, but that didn't work and Shaggy totally erased that, and Lara convinced Thomas he is what he is and not to feel guilty etc... Before he went unconscious, Thomas was screaming because he was being confronted with the harm he had caused all these years, maybe that will ultimately burn out the Hunger? Or it won't, and that is one of the reasons Harry is weeping on Christmas Eve., in spite of all his efforts and intentions, Thomas is either dead, or has to remain where he is forever.
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@Mira: I believe he can't communicate with anyone who isn't under the same protocol.
Speaking of a metamorphosis, the first time we saw Thomas, he was wearing butterfly wings and "posed like some bizarre post-chrysalis incarnation of Errol Flynn" with a crystalline sword.
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I believe he can't communicate with anyone who isn't under the same protocol.
Which means no one, so he is in solitary with the nightmares of his own making to contemplate.
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I believe there was one other under that protocol.
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Maybe if Thomas *chooses* to pick up Amoracchius (sp?), it would kill the weakened Hunger Demon within him. I mean, the demon is susceptible to true love, Thomas is truly in love and Amoracchius is the sword of love. I mean, that's a whole lotta lovin' for a demon that is susceptible to love.
The question i have is if that does happen, then does Thomas age to his real age, or does he just age from that point on?
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I believe there was one other under that protocol.
I don't think so, but even so he isn't allowed to communicate with anyone.
Maybe if Thomas *chooses* to pick up Amoracchius (sp?), it would kill the weakened Hunger Demon within him. I mean, the demon is susceptible to true love, Thomas is truly in love and Amoracchius is the sword of love. I mean, that's a whole lotta lovin' for a demon that is susceptible to love.
The question i have is if that does happen, then does Thomas age to his real age, or does he just age from that point on?
Thomas is only about eight years or so older than Harry, but if he loses his Hunger Demon then he ages at the same rate as any other vanilla human, because that is what he then is. Remember the vision Harry had of him in the soul gaze back in Blood Right, kind of a bespectacled nerd. However since he does have wizard blood from his mother's side, I guess he could age a little slower. I don't see him wielding the Sword of Love in Battle Ground though.
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I don't think so, but even so he isn't allowed to communicate with anyone.
Maybe because before there was no one else in the same security level. Now there is.
(I'm assuming it's British voice from before)
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Re: Contemplation Protocol
There was one prisoner held below in a kind of unique stasis, something that could most closely be considered sleep, though he could also awaken and perform limited communications for short periods of time. It was, as best as I could understand, the only protocol with sanity-saving sleep built into it.
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"Contemplation," I responded quietly. "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners not enduring the same protocol."
It seems likely that the "one prisoner" is the British prisoner from the start of Skin Game, and that Harry, for some reason, wants that prisoner to be able to speak to Thomas. Otherwise, he could have just said "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners."
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Re: Contemplation Protocol
It seems likely that the "one prisoner" is the British prisoner from the start of Skin Game, and that Harry, for some reason, wants that prisoner to be able to speak to Thomas. Otherwise, he could have just said "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners."
It is a little confusing but I don't think he can. Harry talks about the different protocols. Then he mentions the one held in stasis [who we call the British prisoner] he was to sleep all of the time, with occasional communication, all for his sanity.
But then he goes on to say that the prison was never meant to hold someone as fragile as Thomas was at present.
"Contemplation," I responded quietly. "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners not enduring the same protocol."
In my opinion the protocols are very close, but not the same at all.
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Which means no one, so he is in solitary with the nightmares of his own making to contemplate.
No.The various Wardens of Demonreach had tinkered with the cells.
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There was one prisoner held below in a kind of unique stasis, something that could most closely be considered sleep, though he could also awaken and perform limited communications for short periods of time. It was, as best I could understand, the only protocol with sanity saving sleep built into it.
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"Contemplation," I responded quietly. "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners not enduring the same protocol."
Pg. 322
The protocol has a name. It's strongly implied other Wardens had come up with it. There is a prisoner held under the protocol. Contemplation is the only protocol that has sleep. The final bolded portion would be surplusage if there wasn't at least one prisoner sharing the protocol.
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I think butters is going to use his sword to slay Thomas's demon. butters sword cant harm a mortal because its blade is non corporeal. I think its possible that the White court is going to have sevral of there demons slain by butters leaving the host a vanilla mortal
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I think butters is going to use his sword to slay Thomas's demon. butters sword cant harm a mortal because its blade is non corporeal. I think its possible that the White court is going to have sevral of there demons slain by butters leaving the host a vanilla mortal
That is a real good guess, most likely that is why we had that little demo, the Sword cannot hurt human flesh, it kills monsters.
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I would point out the Molly Summoning passage in PT, Jim sets up exactly that scenario in Molly trying to leave a circle the mortal part of her could, but because she is so riddled through with the Mantle, what passed through the circle would not be Molly as she was.
I think this scene was included as a companion to that of the testing of the swords new capabilities, the sword might successfully kill the Hunger BUT the mortal left is not recognisably Thomas.
I think perhaps the way forward is to change the nature of the Hunger, not to kill it, we do not know enough of the White Courts origins whether that is possible. Get the hunger to feed on love rather than life. The Sword of Faith is not the only weapon in Harry’s Arsenal. It is interesting if you look at the Wikipedia article on Cupid (aka Eros or AMOR) the classical depiction does match Thomas’s appearance as we see him in Grave Peril for the first time, and Christian depictions of Cupid as a demon of fornication match the White Court to a T.
If Whamps are the corrupted scion of Cupid, the one thing which might be able to undo the corruption is the grail, a purifier, which means Harry would have to actively seek out Nicky to cure Thomas. That would be fun, and where the sword of faith may come into play in a cure.
If you can cure Thomas, or convert him, it is a potential end of the White Court Vampires, and introduce Thomas to the concept of Monogamy, which he probably thinks is some kind of wood.
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I would point out the Molly Summoning passage in PT, Jim sets up exactly that scenario in Molly trying to leave a circle the mortal part of her could, but because she is so riddled through with the Mantle, what passed through the circle would not be Molly as she was.
I found that scene very sad, I think it was a reminder that like Molly, Mab was human once long ago.
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I found that scene very sad, I think it was a reminder that like Molly, Mab was human once long ago.
That creates a distance between them sure but that does not mean being the lady is a bad thing.
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That creates a distance between them sure but that does not mean being the lady is a bad thing.
I didn't say it was, but consider and there are hints from what the Titian said to Mab, she may have started out a lot like Molly. She may have been sweet, kind, and very human in the beginning, much like Molly. There are also hints of it after Maeve died that she revealed to Harry unintentionally of her very human motherly pain. To which Kringle warned Harry never to expose her weakness to others or expose them at his own peril. The Mab of today wasn't shaped in a day, it took over a thousand years.
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She hides her weaknesses so we do not really know how big they are.
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She hides her weaknesses so we do not really know how big they are.
The big one being she was a caring human once.
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I think butters is going to use his sword to slay Thomas's demon. butters sword cant harm a mortal because its blade is non corporeal. I think its possible that the White court is going to have sevral of there demons slain by butters leaving the host a vanilla mortal
Yes! I've finished the book just a little ago and posted that same theory in other thread (I swear, I had not read this thread). I am still not sure that will happen (it would be too easy if Butters could just slay any whampire. So I thought two things: perhaps it will work with Thomas because he is weak. Or, it won't work on Thomas but it will work in his child. So Justine and the baby will be safe, Thomas will be grateful to Butters, perhaps even consider becoming a Knight of the sword)
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here is another thought about butters and the sword. sevral individuals have become possessed by the outsiders what if the sword could be used to remove those influences.
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here is another thought about butters and the sword. sevral individuals have become possessed by the outsiders what if the sword could be used to remove those influences.
I am more hopeful about Harry's starborn talent to achieve such a thing rather than the holy sword. Though Harry need to enter the mind of an infected person or being to do so which probably breaks the 4th law if it is done to fellow humans.
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By now Thomas and his demon are so intertwined that I think just slaying it without damaging Thomas is impossible.
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I agree as regards them being so intertwined, they may try to use the sword of faith and I suspect the Shroud on Thomas, but what about the sword of love? Love has a particular effect on the Hunger burning the vampire, and Harry has divined (sorry about the pun) more of the swords true nature from the Sword of Faith than anyone was able to do previously. It doesn’t need to be the Sword of Faith, it is the knowledge obtained by it’s metamorphosis which is probably the key.
I would point out that when the sword became the Faithsabre, Butters was holding the hilt with the nail and wearing the Duster, which had the Athame (weapon) and Shroud (resurrection) in it pockets which probably helped the transformation. His faith shaped the transformation and the other two objects powered it. Trying to work something similar on Thomas to transform his hunger would likely require the Shroud, plus the sword of love plus the Grail (purification). Unfortunately, Nick has the grail. Why give Harry the solution without him having to work for it?
The Knights of the Cross always give the monsters the opportunity to repent and change, its part of the nature of the swords.
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I forgot Harry had the Shroud too.
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He has the complete set except the Grail, that must make the geek collector in him itch. However having the Athame, the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns and the Placard isn’t so great, as they have been taken out of their original packaging.
I think we are going to have purpose of one of each of these super weapons shown to us per the next few books, Athame now, Placard Battle Ground etc, but they can be used in different combinations.
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Question: Can Thomas fed upon Ethniu?
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Interesting. A priori I would say no, it would be like trying to eat a whole pizza in one bite but if they somehow find a way to dosify it.
I am wondering if Harry's plan would work. If he really defeats the Titan and traps her she will feel the damage she caused, which is really a lot. But Christmas Eve, with him feeling guilty about being so arrogant, I don't think the pokeball plan will work. I just wish to know exactly what he means by "if it wasn't for the kid..."
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Interesting. A priori I would say no, it would be like trying to eat a whole pizza in one bite but if they somehow find a way to dosify it.
I am wondering if Harry's plan would work. If he really defeats the Titan and traps her she will feel the damage she caused, which is really a lot. But Christmas Eve, with him feeling guilty about being so arrogant, I don't think the pokeball plan will work. I just wish to know exactly what he means by "if it wasn't for the kid..."
I think Harry thought he arrogant thinking he could do it, because containing the Titan was a lot more difficult than even he imagined.. I also think there will be a lot of collateral damage when he uses the Spear or even perhaps the Placard.. It could be what he was trying to tell "them" the damage these weapons would cause, i.e. like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Question: Can Thomas fed upon Ethniu?
I'd say it's probably theoretically possible - Ethniu is a Celtic power (one of the original Fomorians) and the powers and gods of Celtic myth are very "human" and passion-driven (as opposed to say Judeo-Christian/Islamic angels). So I'd expect that the Raith feeding power *could* work in a way that might not be possible against an angel or Outsider or something.
And there is that old WoJ about 'who could beat Mab' which implies the White Court could theoretically (although it's very improbable) control her.
But I don't think it would work in practice. For one, it would take too long; Ethniu could probably destroy Thomas just by opening her Eye.
Even if it could be done, it could very well heal Thomas, but I don't think it would be of much use in defeating Ethniu - we see in "Bigfoot on Campus" that a powerful-enough 'aura' can absorb Whampire life-force feeding without harm, and Ethniu is way more powerful than a Bigfoot Scion.
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Question: Can Thomas fed upon Ethniu?
Never eat an energy field larger than your head.
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Question: Can Thomas fed upon Ethniu?
Never eat an energy field larger than your head.
Yeah, normally it shouldn't be possible. However, if Ethniu is suppressed by Harry and demonreach, could she be weakened enough for Thomas to fed upon?
The point is I want to know weather Ethiu's life force is theoretically compatible as food for a whampire demon. Humans can't eat iron ingots no matter what, while potatos, though poisonous, can be eaten under the right process.
I am wandering if Ethniu can be processed.
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I am wandering if Ethniu can be processed.
That sounds so fun ;D ;D ;D
(a valid question, though)
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He has the complete set except the Grail.
I meant in his duster in SG. I knew he ended up with everything but the Grail from the vault.
I just wish to know exactly what he means by "if it wasn't for the kid..."
If it wasn't for Maggie he would, or might, spiral into a deep and disgusting depression like he did when Susan was taken in GP. That was my reading.
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Yeah, normally it shouldn't be possible. However, if Ethniu is suppressed by Harry and demonreach, could she be weakened enough for Thomas to fed upon?
The point is I want to know weather Ethiu's life force is theoretically compatible as food for a whampire demon. Humans can't eat iron ingots no matter what, while potatos, though poisonous, can be eaten under the right process.
I am wandering if Ethniu can be processed.
I see no reason why not. In the end it is all spiritual energy. It brings with it nature though that will influence you on a big scale.
We already saw that Justine could influence Thomas moods by choosing his food sources, that ghosts/shades eating others can be dangerous and crazy. That Harry is not old and stable enough to use the island leafy line as an energy source and on and on.
If a Thomas eats Ethniu under the right circumstances, say Halloween, he might become a god. Probably not a nice one.
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If it wasn't for Maggie he would, or might, spiral into a deep and disgusting depression like he did when Susan was taken in GP. That was my reading.
Ahhh! You are probably right, thank you!
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Definitely, it’s a parallel those who know Harry can draw, which is why Kringle, Molly and Mab have all tried to cheer him up.
Which reminds me Kringle is a Mantle, and Odin is due to die at Ragnarok, who inherits the Mantle? Be nice if Harry swapped it for that of the Winter Knight, from Winter Knight to Silent Night, but the best choice? Michael Carpenter, father of the current Winter Lady of whom Kringle is Vassal. He would be a natural.
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Definitely, it’s a parallel those who know Harry can draw, which is why Kringle, Molly and Mab have all tried to cheer him up.
Which reminds me Kringle is a Mantle, and Odin is due to die at Ragnarok, who inherits the Mantle? Be nice if Harry swapped it for that of the Winter Knight, from Winter Knight to Silent Night, but the best choice? Michael Carpenter, father of the current Winter Lady of whom Kringle is Vassal. He would be a natural.
Yeah, but I think Michael would prefer to go to his Lord.
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We have this ol' WoJ gem which I believe can be applied:
Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really “win” as much as “continue to exist.” Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here’s who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania–though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn’t)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they’d need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court–again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn’t be good.
o The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There’s a REASON that when Mab said, “Sign these Accords and abide by them,” people listened. :)
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Shift back... if it would take the entire White Court to overcome Mab, I can't see enraged Thomas taking on a Titan without significant assistance. Now, you wouldn't need Thomas if you already had Alfred. Unless somehow the Titan is weak to White Court power. So can't see Thomas really helping there.
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“Yeah, but I think Michael would prefer to go to his Lord.”
By not taking on the Mantle of St Nicholas? Where do you think ‘Santa’ comes from?. He knows that eventually he will meet up with his family again whatever. All that is needed is a release of his Vassallage to Winter, which Vadderung did to be able to hobnob with Mab in a different capacity, and boom that Mantle is independent, able to undertake good works on behalf of the Lord.
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“Yeah, but I think Michael would prefer to go to his Lord.”
By not taking on the Mantle of St Nicholas? Where do you think ‘Santa’ comes from?. He knows that eventually he will meet up with his family again whatever. All that is needed is a release of his Vassallage to Winter, which Vadderung did to be able to hobnob with Mab in a different capacity, and boom that Mantle is independent, able to undertake good works on behalf of the Lord.
Yup, I think given the choice, Michael would rather go to Heaven where his family are waiting, the spend eternity even as Santa. Though parting with Molly would be hard for him.
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@Mira: What if his family is still around?
@Maz: I don't think Thomas would be taking on the Titan without significant assistance. (I also don't think he's going to be taking on the Titan at all).