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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: jbmdw45 on July 10, 2018, 04:24:28 AM
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So... re-reading Skin Game, I was struck by two things at the end:
(1) Molly's body language with Harry at the end is fairly intimate. She un-selfconsciously hugs him around the neck, nods with her hair touching his, etc.
(2) When Molly was in Harry's head, she talked to the guy in black about the parasite. I wonder what else they talked about, don't you?
I feel like Molly knows now that she's got a shot with Harry and it's put her in a good, relaxed mood. I kind of feel like the thing with Murphy is not a resolution--it's just setting up a conflict so that it will be more painful for Harry (and Murph, and us!) when he winds up entangled with Molly and breaks Murphy's heart. (Just like Ric did with Murph's little sister! Ouch, again.)
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It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.
Hell, it basically forces her to be a horny flirt instead of spilling Winter secrets.
And then bad things happen.
So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.
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It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.
Hell, it basically forces her to be a horny flirt instead of spilling Winter secrets.
And then bad things happen.
So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.
yea... that combined with Harry as WK thinking he's physically stronger than the Lady... and Michael already accepting of Harry when he thinks they've done the nasty(which was Harry's prime motive for NOT doing so after she grew up I think), and I see very nasty surprise coming.(wait, so is Harry going to impregnate Molly so she can qualify for Queen O.o )
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yea... that combined with Harry as WK thinking he's physically stronger than the Lady... and Michael already accepting of Harry when he thinks they've done the nasty(which was Harry's prime motive for NOT doing so after she grew up I think), and I see very nasty surprise coming.(wait, so is Harry going to impregnate Molly so she can qualify for Queen O.o )
Harry's prime motive was that he's known Molly since she was a child and it just feels wrong to him. I'm sure Michael and how he would react was one of the reasons, but not the prime one.
And Harry is not stronger than the Lady. He's a mortal with borrowed power, she's a minor goddess.
If anything, I'd say Molly's taking on the mantle cements that nothing is going to happen between the two any time soon. Harry doesn't want it, Molly knows it can't happen, Harry sure as hell isn't going to brute force it (i.e., rape her), and even if he tried the Lady mantle would tear him to shreds.
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Harry's prime motive was that he's known Molly since she was a child and it just feels wrong to him. I'm sure Michael and how he would react was one of the reasons, but not the prime one.
actually his friends opinion of him matters a lot, and that whole know since she was a child thing really went away with the growing up... the mantle is only making his own thoughts louder there.
And Harry is not stronger than the Lady. He's a mortal with borrowed power, she's a minor goddess.
Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed. And Harry in his WK persona made this claim on a knowing level, not some two bit guess, couple that with the fact the defense mechanism is a bersker aspect and my claim stands.
If anything, I'd say Molly's taking on the mantle cements that nothing is going to happen between the two any time soon. Harry doesn't want it, Molly knows it can't happen, Harry sure as hell isn't going to brute force it (i.e., rape her), and even if he tried the Lady mantle would tear him to shreds.
A. willing participant, see their shared dream.(go ahead and try to claim either one of them don't do bondage and kink) B. Can't tear apart what you can't escape.
Good debating you again Death... I thought we'd previously agreed or I wouldn't have tried to reply to you... but it was nice to see you try again.
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actually his friends opinion of him matters a lot, and that whole know since she was a child thing really went away with the growing up... the mantle is only making his own thoughts louder there.
He's accepted she's a woman, but he has not expressed any change in opinion on the prospects of romance between them, so for the moment we can assume his other objections still stand -- i.e., he's still like 20 years older than her and basically her teacher, so, ew.
Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed. And Harry in his WK persona made this claim on a knowing level, not some two bit guess, couple that with the fact the defense mechanism is a bersker aspect and my claim stands.
A brief cutaway in which we saw none of the action is not a basis to claim that the entirety of the defense mechanism is solely physical berserker action.
We've seen what the Ladies can do, and the power they wield is well above what the Knight can. Molly casually freezes an entire church building in a split second in Cold Case. Her power is obviously, significantly amplified.
Look at the climax (ha HA) in Cold Days -- what's Maeve's play to stop Dresden at the end? Seduce him. Do you really think her plan would be, "Entice the Winter Knight to have his way with me," if she thought he could simply overpower her physically? Of anyone, Maeve would have had a pretty solid idea of her own limits versus those of the Knight, and she deliberately drew Harry in like that.
Ergo, Maeve was pretty damned confident that -- even in his nigh-berserker rape-beast mindset -- she could take Harry.
A. willing participant, see their shared dream.(go ahead and try to claim either one of them don't do bondage and kink)
If she's flying into a berserker rage and trying to maim him, she is no longer a willing participant. You've heard of "no means no"? Well, breaking someone's back and mauling them with claws also means "no," generally speaking.
B. Can't tear apart what you can't escape.
That ... doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about her "escaping" Harry (and, again, "escaping" implies she doesn't want to do this), and she won't have to "escape" him. She didn't "escape" Carlos -- she just horribly maimed him.
I mean, do you realize that what you're saying here amounts to, "Nah, it'll be OK, Harry is strong enough to force himself on Molly no matter how she physically protests and fights back"?
Doesn't that seem kind of wrong to you?
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It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.
*snip*
So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.
I don't think it has to be an either/or thing, and there are external factors too like her increased self-confidence (which shows in her interactions with Harry much earlier, during the dream sequence). But "libido" isn't the vibe I was getting from Molly at the end. It was "warmth", and I don't think that's a Winter thing per se.
More to the point, if the guy in black is going out of his way to tell Harry to seduce Molly, do you think he's going to pass up the opportunity when he gets the chance to interact with Molly directly? No way. I don't know exactly what he would have said to her but I'm sure she would come out of that interaction feeling special and closer to Harry than before.
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Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed.
IIRC she does "draw upon Winter" right before she kicks a door (explosively?) off its hinges in the short story "Cold Case." Seems clear that she can be mighty when she wants to now.
The side effects are interesting too. (Laughing maniacally at death and destruction, and being vaguely bothered that she wasn't more bothered by it.) I think she will deal okay with it, just like Harry has, but we'll see.
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Didn't Maeve dislocate Slate's shoulder with one kick (while remaining seated) in summer knight?
And another thing. Why does Butters and Harry himself) keep thinking that Harry got no real power boost from becoming the winter knight? I mean, we actually never see any significant change in his power level. Fix had no talent before becoming the summer knight, but after that he had enough juice to challenge Harry, and actually be reasonable threat to him.
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He's accepted she's a woman, but he has not expressed any change in opinion on the prospects of romance between them, so for the moment we can assume his other objections still stand -- i.e., he's still like 20 years older than her and basically her teacher, so, ew.
Your opinion is not a deciding factor in a verse where that's the norm between master and apprentice oppositesA brief cutaway in which we saw none of the action is not a basis to claim that the entirety of the defense mechanism is solely physical berserker action.
Mmm, and yet the lack of more than physical damage would mean the other side of the coin has less evidence in and of itself making the idea more valid anyway.
We've seen what the Ladies can do, and the power they wield is well above what the Knight can. Molly casually freezes an entire church building in a split second in Cold Case. Her power is obviously, significantly amplified.
You do know what we're debating here?
Look at the climax (ha HA) in Cold Days -- what's Maeve's play to stop Dresden at the end? Seduce him. Do you really think her plan would be, "Entice the Winter Knight to have his way with me," if she thought he could simply overpower her physically? Of anyone, Maeve would have had a pretty solid idea of her own limits versus those of the Knight, and she deliberately drew Harry in like that.
Ergo, Maeve was pretty damned confident that -- even in his nigh-berserker rape-beast mindset -- she could take Harry.
Her ploy was simply to separate the desires of the WK from Harry, which worked perfectly.
If she's flying into a berserker rage and trying to maim him, she is no longer a willing participant. You've heard of "no means no"? Well, breaking someone's back and mauling them with claws also means "no," generally speaking.
and if she's trying to eat your face and kill you... this is a moot point, she's not the mantle, an if Harry knows her angst at all when it happens, then, like has happened before already, he'll follow the will of the person not the parasite trying to control them. *sigh* this is such a moot point I feel you just try to be contrary, at least argue because you believe it, not cause you wanna have one right...
That ... doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about her "escaping" Harry (and, again, "escaping" implies she doesn't want to do this), and she won't have to "escape" him. She didn't "escape" Carlos -- she just horribly maimed him.
I mean, do you realize that what you're saying here amounts to, "Nah, it'll be OK, Harry is strong enough to force himself on Molly no matter how she physically protests and fights back"?
Doesn't that seem kind of wrong to you?
Na it will be ok, He'll be able to give Molly her true desire by leu of th WK being able to physically take the WL... which coincidently look at Maeve and Slates relationship.. Slates particular disposition after he's been on the job awhile... and ask yourself what motives Maeve had when choosing said Knight? It's in his syle of clothes, the way they present themselves as a duo in Sk, ect. they're 'fond' of each other in that crazy fae way.
( :o I just realized without starborn they're sterile, cause they cant' 'change' otherwise... sweet, this disposition worked out in my favor)
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Your opinion is not a deciding factor in a verse where that's the norm between master and apprentice opposites
The "norm"? No. It's mentioned that it has happened, not that it's the "norm."
And "so, ew" is also Harry's opinion, based on ... him giving his opinion about it.
Mmm, and yet the lack of more than physical damage would mean the other side of the coin has less evidence in and of itself making the idea more valid anyway.
The Mantle was defending its own existence. Mab is very clear that the Mantle would be destroyed if Molly sleeps with a man. The Mantle has access to Winter's Wellspring, power that Molly was shown in that story to use -- almost casually -- to wipe out an entire room full of empowered enemies and kick the door in so hard it nearly exploded.
But yeah, let's say "extra grace/speed" so you can keep arguing that the Winter Knight -- who, again, has a portion of the power that the Winter Queens have access to -- can just overpower her. It's not like one of the elemental forces of nature is going to actually use any of its real power to defend its own existence.
Creatures of all sorts get more dangerous when they're defending their existence. You're positing that the Mantle of the Winter Lady would pull its punches and demonstrate a lot less power in defense of its existence than Molly has access to do when she's casually showing off. That supposition makes no sense.
You do know what we're debating here?
Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.
Her ploy was simply to separate the desires of the WK from Harry, which worked perfectly.
By drawing him in close and ratcheting up the "Rape and kill Maeve" impulse.
You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so.
and if she's trying to eat your face and kill you... this is a moot point, she's not the mantle, an if Harry knows her angst at all when it happens, then, like has happened before already, he'll follow the will of the person not the parasite trying to control them. *sigh* this is such a moot point I feel you just try to be contrary, at least argue because you believe it, not cause you wanna have one right...
So, Harry's just going to ignore the obviously impaired mindset of his prospective romantic partner to force sex on her despite her literally, physically fighting him back in defense of herself ... why again? Is Harry just doing this to get his rocks off, without caring about how Molly feels, or even if she's consciously experiencing it?
Molly completely blacked out when the Mantle was defending itself. I.e., she's not conscious or aware of what's happening when it takes over.
Are you really, seriously suggesting here that Harry should physically restrain someone who's not aware of what's happening so he can fuck her?
Because it sure as hell sounds like that.
Na it will be ok, He'll be able to give Molly her true desire by leu of th WK being able to physically take the WL...
Nothing in the books suggests this is possible. Mab speaks clearly -- sleeping with any Man will destroy the mantle. She does not make an exception for the Winter Knight in her statement.
which coincidently look at Maeve and Slates relationship.. Slates particular disposition after he's been on the job awhile... and ask yourself what motives Maeve had when choosing said Knight?
I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. Maeve picked an asshole to be her Knight. So what? There's never any indication that they had a sexual relationship.
It's in his syle of clothes, the way they present themselves as a duo in Sk, ect. they're 'fond' of each other in that crazy fae way.
What. Maeve has to have Slate physically restrained because he is about to take a swing at her. And then she kicks him so hard she dislocates his shoulder. Slate, in turn says he's working with Aurora so that when he gets the Summer Knight power, he can take revenge on Maeve.
They both make it pretty clear that they hate each other and want to do one another harm.
"Fond" is not a word that describes them.
( :o I just realized without starborn they're sterile, cause they cant' 'change' otherwise... sweet, this disposition worked out in my favor)
Again, what? Where are you getting any of this from?
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Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...
Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.
Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed.
regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?
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Consider for a moment what JB has done to date. Were I a woman in Harry's life I would buy life insurance and wear body armor, he's bad ju ju for the women in his circle. The count is three Ladies, ,one girlfriend and one fallen angel(or a shadow copy anyway). And the mothers of his children should be very afraid. He's two and oh on that score. And that is not to mention Murphy being used a a punching bag or Anastasia Luccio being mind controlled and subjected to a body swap. Oh yeah, and getting his apprentice a mantle she didn't want.
I personally think that Murphy should get her affairs in order and that Harry cheating on her with Molly should be the least of her worries. Whatever Molly once was she is now subject to control by the Queen, and she is keeping secrets.
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Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?
Well, no, I read everything you wrote. One minor mistake on my part does not dismiss all the other arguments that you're not addressing. You don't get to decide what I am doing when I post, or why.
You were egregiously underselling the capabilities of the Winter Ladies and their mantles. So, I was pointing out the abilities we've seen Maeve and Molly exhibit during the books.
You argued that the only physical boost they got was to grace and speed, despite us seeing in the books that Maeve dislocated Slate's shoulder with a light kick, and Molly physically kicking down a pair of gigantic wooden doors to the point they nearly exploded -- both clearly feats of strength well beyond what their normal muscular and frames would have accounted for.
Ergo, your supposition that grace and speed is the only physical buff is clearly wrong.
You also argued that the only defense it would demonstrate to defend itself was physical, when that simply makes no sense. Why would a mantle defending its very existence hold back from using all the power at its disposal if it was under real, ongoing threat?
Egro, given what we've seen of the Winter Ladies, that the Winter Knight could so simply overpower them is just plain not a tenable suggestion.
You further argued that the Winter Knight has some kind of loophole that would bypass the Lady Mantle's rule against sleeping with any men. There is simply nothing in the books that states or suggests such a thing, and Mab's language was clear that she cannot sleep with any man.
I can't say why you're arguing this, but on the balance of the evidence, it certainly appears that you are heavily invested in Harry being able to stick his "blasting rod" into Molly, to the exclusion of other considerations.
And then there's the final point you didn't see fit to address: That, in your supposition, Harry would restrain, overpower and force sex on Molly while she is in the grips of the Mantle's automatic defense.
When in that state, she has no memory of her actions and no control over what she's doing; therefore, she cannot give consent.
Again, does that not seem wrong to you?
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Ah well they can not give consent anyway because they have no free will ;D
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Ah well they can not give consent anyway because they have no free will ;D
Wait a minute... Faeries are.... JAILBAIT?
Well, shit..
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Wait a minute... Faeries are.... JAILBAIT?
Well, shit..
According to the council they are not even human so most countries have laws against that.
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You argued that the only physical boost they got was to grace and speed, despite us seeing in the books that Maeve dislocated Slate's shoulder with a light kick, and Molly physically kicking down a pair of gigantic wooden doors to the point they nearly exploded -- both clearly feats of strength well beyond what their normal muscular and frames would have accounted for.
Ergo, your supposition that grace and speed is the only physical buff is clearly wrong.
Nope, I supposed whatever boost they did get was not as much as the WK, I did that, did you read it? I also directly said in the Files, to point out my lack of knowledge on cold case, not having really read it. Not that it matters, cause I then posited the boost was not greater than the WK's, and that WK incorporated knew this? Clearly that is one point you will just repetitively ignore because it directly through in book context, negates your little debate over nothing... I could also proceed to point out how, specifically, as the Knight is a part of the queen they are vulnerable to the knight himself but you'll still argue . make no mistake, I refuse to reply to your silly one upmanship because you've proven repetitively that's all you want. Even you rebuttal to Maeve's ploy.. it's what she did you thinking its stupid is less than negligible By drawing him in close and ratcheting up the "Rape and kill Maeve" impulse.
You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so
especially sense the scene itself proved the WK impulse is not to kill the Lady but to rape her... now proceed with the previous status quoi and ignore me while I add you to this ignore list too.
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I attributed it to Molly being disappointed when she didn't see anything of herself in Bonnie.
Seriously, Kim Delaney, who we haven't seen in twelve books, shares some features with Bonnie, but Molly doesn't. There are traces of Elaine, Murphy, Kim, Susan, and Ivy—but nothing related to Molly at all. Pretty sure Molly would something like that.
As far as her reaction when she sees him, I chalk that up to Molly seeing her old teacher for the first time since her entire life was broken into a billion pieces and rebuilt from scratch. He's something familiar, a stable relationship, and she's relieved that he's okay. They even remark on the changed nature of their relationship dynamic shortly afterward, and Molly's sad about it.
Skin Game, page 421 on Nook:
"If that's your choice, I'll respect it. You aren't really my apprentice anymore, Molls."
She stared at me for a second after I said that, and I saw hurt and realization alike flicker through her features. Then she nodded and said quietly, "I guess I'm not, am I?"
I made another major effort and patter her hand. "Things change," I said. "Nothing to feel sad about."
Anyway, Molly is not happy about the fundamental difference in their new relationship, and likely not because of her enforced chastity. Probably part of it is her new life, but part of it is because she misses her old one more than she likes her new one. If she thought that she'd finally have a chance with Harry now, she'd be stoked at that part of the change, not sad.
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Nope, I supposed whatever boost they did get was not as much as the WK, I did that, did you read it?
I did, in fact. I also answered why I thought the idea did not make logical sense to me.
In short, the Winter Knight is a mortal gifted with a small portion of the power that the Winter Queens, including the Ladies, have full access to. Ergo, it does not make any sense to me -- based on what's been seen and stated in the books and stories -- that the Ladies would be less powerful than the Knight.
I also directly said in the Files, to point out my lack of knowledge on cold case, not having really read it. Not that it matters, cause I then posited the boost was not greater than the WK's, and that WK incorporated knew this? Clearly that is one point you will just repetitively ignore because it directly through in book context, negates your little debate over nothing...
What, exactly, is "WK incorporated"? To my knowledge that is not a term from the books, but you've twice referred to it as if it's an authoritative source.
I could also proceed to point out how, specifically, as the Knight is a part of the queen they are vulnerable to the knight himself but you'll still argue .
"Vulnerable to" is not the same as "weaker than."
Maeve was vulnerable to Murphy's headshot. Does that mean that Murphy could overpower Maeve? No.
Harry is vulnerable to iron wielded by pixies. Does that mean the pixies can overpower him? No.
Are the Queens vulnerable to the Winter Knight? Apparently so. Does that mean he can take one of them on in a direct test of strength? No.
Based on the power displayed by the Ladies and the Queens in the books, I can only conclude that Harry would lose any such direct confrontation.
make no mistake, I refuse to reply to your silly one upmanship because you've proven repetitively that's all you want.
Nope. I'm simply stating a case. Pointing out the implications of the things you've stated is not "silly one upmanship." I have no interest in "on upmanship." I am interested in making my points clear.
Even you rebuttal to Maeve's ploy.. it's what she did you thinking its stupid is less than negligible
It appears you misunderstood my point. Let me restate it, for clarity's sake:
You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so.
The bolded bit is the important point. Maeve drawing Harry in -- while he is armed and obviously intends to do her violence -- is an indication that Maeve has confidence that she can and will be able to stop Harry from whatever it is he or the Mantle wants to do.
I think Maeve -- who has been Winter Lady and worked with dozens if not hundreds of Winter Knights over the course of 1000 years (and who has probably killed more than a few of them personally) -- has a better idea of the relative capabilities of the Lady and Knight mantles than Harry -- who, at that point, had been on the job less than 24 hours and still needs other people to explain his own limitations to him.
especially sense the scene itself proved the WK impulse is not to kill the Lady but to rape her... now proceed with the previous status quoi and ignore me while I add you to this ignore list too.
I'd have to check my copy of the book to be certain (I only have PDFs up through Ghost Story), but I'm reasonably sure Harry's inner monologue when he gives in to the Winter Knight mantle includes desires to kill Maeve.
But back to the issue at hand, I think it's evident that neither Harry nor Molly want or would want to go that route at this point in the books.
Dresden has, to my recollection, never stated that he wants to pursue romance with Molly -- his current romantic aims being directed instead at Murphy -- so until he does, his previous, repeated and very firm denials of the prospect stand.
Molly now knows that any attempt to have sex with a man will result in her being put in a state of blind, black-out fury as the Mantle seeks to at the very least maim the object of her affections. Molly obviously does not want to subject a man she loves, admires and respects to the fury of the nigh-godly mantle -- she was already devastated when it happened to Ramirez.
Further, even if she could be fully overpowered and restrained such that she could not harm her prospective partner, it would still destroy the mantle. The mantle is one of the pillars of the mortal world and represents a job that Molly said is important and worth doing, so she obviously wouldn't want it destroyed.
To dip into speculation here, we have no idea what would happen to Molly if the mantle is destroyed while she's holding it, but I doubt the destruction of such an old, powerful and important mantle would be harmless to its wielder.
Finally, even if the Winter Knight has some kind of loophole that would prevent the Mantle's destruction, Molly would spend the act blacked out and completely without control, meaning she couldn't even remember or enjoy it, even if we put aside the question of ongoing consent.
So from Harry's perspective, he is simply not interested. From Molly's perspective, getting busy with Harry presents huge risks to herself, her partner and the fabric of reality, with no real benefit to her even if those risks don't manifest -- and, as Kindler points out, she doesn't seem to be too interested in the prospect at this point either.
Therefore, I respectfully posit that -- until proven otherwise by the text of the books -- Harry dipping his blasting rod into Molly's winter wellspring is not in the cards.
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Therefore, I respectfully posit that -- until proven otherwise by the text of the books -- Harry dipping his blasting rod into Molly's winter wellspring is not in the cards
and I suppose when it comes to pass they mate and produce a new formation, destroying the old is just change after all, and thus makes the new 'Queen', cause ya know, the Ladies job is to become queen, not just change up mantles, that's just a passover.... i'll be maniacally laughing at how much you've said you hate when such theories come to pass... and yes, I will respectfully remind you of it til the end of time..Nope, I supposed whatever boost they did get was not as much as the WK, I did that, did you read it?
I did, in fact. I also answered
and if you could kindly point to where you directly replied to that point instead of substituting it with you own tangent i'd love that... cause I never actually said that, I said that I said that, and you proved your not really paying attention still ;p
*but, just cause I feel like going into my own tangent on this theory, the actual ability to mate added to an act of love(cause i'd really like to see fae try an co-op that shit without it screwing them *cough* Lea *cough*) and the fact mutual love plus vigorous sex is proven to be the equal to true love protection, added to that the little blurb on love and escaping the WK to begin with, and indeed Mab's Big clue bat that Thomas being able to love was what made him mortal enough for her... and the primal act of creation that is actually going to do the deed, is probably protected from even the mantles ability to influence.. ya, know, since love is one of those powers that promote free will and all... And it's likely that's the way it was set up to work to begin with for the winter court.
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Hey i'm back after a couple of year absence, (didn't mean for it to be that long, real life, and not wanting to be around till i'd had chance to catch up on the short stories stretched out way too long, just read Brief Cases), and sorry but having finished Cold Days a few hours ago Harry isn't even close to in the same league as Molly now. She's so far out of his power level that there isn't any way to really put the difference into perspective in a way most people can really comprehend in the sense of "i can image those things". Harry's somwhere up around a decent sized airstrike in terms of magic output, Molly, (and she draws on the same source for her enhanced strength as she does her magic), is a walking WMD.
Though it's also clear from cold days she is constrained by her ability to handle the mental processing effort for anything super complex. Punching things really hard isn't complex.
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I think Maeve -- who has been Winter Lady and worked with dozens if not hundreds of Winter Knights over the course of 1000 years (and who has probably killed more than a few of them personally) -- has a better idea of the relative capabilities of the Lady and Knight mantles than Harry -- who, at that point, had been on the job less than 24 hours and still needs other people to explain his own limitations to him.
Maeve is older than 150 years old but younger than a birth, or rather an early adulthood of some Austrian composer. So, a father that probably had a child no earlier than 1750. This would make Maeve no older than approximately 250 years old. Therefore, she is in no event 1000 years old.
As to the OP and title of the thread, I do believe Molly and IdHarry are conspiring. That IdHarry has told Molly things; she may be operating to effect some plan, circumstance. I do believe IdHarry to be some sort of link to an alternate reality/future Harry. I like to believe Molly and IdHarry plans may be in part targeted at Murphy and Mab. Molly was pretty considerate/grinning when Harry went in to spend time with Murphy at the end of Skin Game. Molly also was eager to confront Mab at the end of Skin Game too. It would be nice to have a Tam Lin plot whereby a love story plot is the means to which one frees someone from a mantle. And that love story plot is side issue within a greater story.
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Maybe, if Harry can find a way to have sex with Molly; then, he will escape the WK role. But, it would require moving Molly up in roles as a sacrifice.
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Maybe, if Harry can find a way to have sex with Molly; then, he will escape the WK role. But, it would require moving Molly up in roles as a sacrifice.
Kill Mab.
Really. That is the only way for Harry to have sex with Molly.
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Kill Mab.
Really. That is the only way for Harry to have sex with Molly.
Now, that's real incentive. lol
But seriously, I doubt killing her Mother would seal the deal.
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Now, that's real incentive. lol
But seriously, I doubt killing her Mother would seal the deal.
Of course then Molly would get Mab's throne and then they can consumate their marriage and get a bunch of changelings as future spare ladies.
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Harry's prime motive was that he's known Molly since she was a child and it just feels wrong to him. I'm sure Michael and how he would react was one of the reasons, but not the prime one.
And Harry is not stronger than the Lady. He's a mortal with borrowed power, she's a minor goddess.
If anything, I'd say Molly's taking on the mantle cements that nothing is going to happen between the two any time soon. Harry doesn't want it, Molly knows it can't happen, Harry sure as hell isn't going to brute force it (i.e., rape her), and even if he tried the Lady mantle would tear him to shreds.
I agree that nothing is likely to happen soon, for most of the reasons you list, but I suspect that 'Harry doesn't want it' is no longer so clear cut as it once was. At one time, yeah, Harry thought of Molly as 'the kid', but that's changing, in his own mind, whether he wants it to or not, he's somewhat in denial about it, but his friends (including Murphy, I note) see it.
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I don't think it has to be an either/or thing, and there are external factors too like her increased self-confidence (which shows in her interactions with Harry much earlier, during the dream sequence). But "libido" isn't the vibe I was getting from Molly at the end. It was "warmth", and I don't think that's a Winter thing per se.
More to the point, if the guy in black is going out of his way to tell Harry to seduce Molly, do you think he's going to pass up the opportunity when he gets the chance to interact with Molly directly? No way. I don't know exactly what he would have said to her but I'm sure she would come out of that interaction feeling special and closer to Harry than before.
As far as id-Harry going behind Harry's back to talk to Molly...it could be. There is precedent for this, remember how id-Harry and Lash did exactly that. Id-Harry does want Molly, we already know that, he's mentioned it to Harry. If id-Harry and Molly were linked up mentally...yeah, I could easily see it as a possibility.
I could well imagine id-Harry telling Molly something like, "Don't despair, kiddo, you're getting to him whether he'll admit it yet or not."
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Kill Mab.
Really. That is the only way for Harry to have sex with Molly.
Or both of them escape from Faerie. Which apparently has been done, IIRC.
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Of course then Molly would get Mab's throne and then they can consumate their marriage and get a bunch of changelings as future spare ladies.
You know, I wouldn't absolutely rule out that being Mother Winter's actual, operating plan. We already know that Mother Winter thinks her daughter is 'too much the Romantic'...think about that. Replacing her might be an option, from MW's unsentimental POV.
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Maeve is older than 150 years old but younger than a birth, or rather an early adulthood of some Austrian composer. So, a father that probably had a child no earlier than 1750. This would make Maeve no older than approximately 250 years old. Therefore, she is in no event 1000 years old.
Fair enough, I was getting Maeve's birth mixed up with the whole Hastings thing and assumed that that was when she was born.
Either way, she's been doing the Winter Lady thing for long enough to have a pretty solid grasp of whether or not she could take the Winter Knight if she had to and, by all appearances, she seemed pretty confident.
Kill Mab.
Really. That is the only way for Harry to have sex with Molly.
Given what Mab's mantle has done to Mab, I don't think Harry would wish that on anyone, especially Molly. He's already worried enough about what the Lady mantle is doing to her, he wouldn't want to saddle her with a more powerful one.
I agree that nothing is likely to happen soon, for most of the reasons you list, but I suspect that 'Harry doesn't want it' is no longer so clear cut as it once was. At one time, yeah, Harry thought of Molly as 'the kid', but that's changing, in his own mind, whether he wants it to or not, he's somewhat in denial about it, but his friends (including Murphy, I note) see it.
Even so, he hasn't shown much actual interest in her romantically, if at all. Attraction to a really hot woman in her early 20s? Sure, just like nearly every other heterosexual male (and, probably, bi/lesbian woman) Molly has walked past in the last few years. But romantic inclination? I haven't seen that from Harry.
As far as id-Harry going behind Harry's back to talk to Molly...it could be. There is precedent for this, remember how id-Harry and Lash did exactly that. Id-Harry does want Molly, we already know that, he's mentioned it to Harry. If id-Harry and Molly were linked up mentally...yeah, I could easily see it as a possibility.
I could well imagine id-Harry telling Molly something like, "Don't despair, kiddo, you're getting to him whether he'll admit it yet or not."
In fairness, we're talking about Id-Harry here. Id-Harry is not quite on Bob's level, but he's not exactly super picky, either. A chunk of his advice in Skin Game was along the lines of, "You're surrounded by beautiful women, just fuck one of them already," and advised he should bang Hannah to boot.
So let's just say I do not trust Id-Harry as the go-to for indications of love. Put it this way: The organ he's most concerned with pleasing is not the heart.
and if you could kindly point to where you directly replied to that point instead of substituting it with you own tangent i'd love that... cause I never actually said that
I'd be happy to.
None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better
I was pointing out the abilities we've seen Maeve and Molly exhibit during the books.
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Maeve dislocated Slate's shoulder with a light kick, and Molly physically kicking down a pair of gigantic wooden doors to the point they nearly exploded -- both clearly feats of strength well beyond what their normal muscular and frames would have accounted for.
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Given what Mab's mantle has done to Mab, I don't think Harry would wish that on anyone, especially Molly. He's already worried enough about what the Lady mantle is doing to her, he wouldn't want to saddle her with a more powerful one.
Even so, he hasn't shown much actual interest in her romantically, if at all. Attraction to a really hot woman in her early 20s? Sure, just like nearly every other heterosexual male (and, probably, bi/lesbian woman) Molly has walked past in the last few years. But romantic inclination? I haven't seen that from Harry.
In fairness, we're talking about Id-Harry here. Id-Harry is not quite on Bob's level, but he's not exactly super picky, either. A chunk of his advice in Skin Game was along the lines of, "You're surrounded by beautiful women, just fuck one of them already," and advised he should bang Hannah to boot.
So let's just say I do not trust Id-Harry as the go-to for indications of love. Put it this way: The organ he's most concerned with pleasing is not the heart.
Bah, for the real hardcore Molly shippers wizard-apprentice relation is insignificant, consent can be given by the man in black and reality is something to be destroyed if it blocks the ship.
Litterally. Molly is not ready for Mab's job.
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@Mr_Death: To be fair Cold Case, (no idea why i called it cold days the other day, other than feeling like harry at the end of an especially rough case anyway), indicates a hell of a lot of the way fae act, and in particular winter fae's constant desire to get somthing into bed comes direct from Mab rather than the mantle as a lot of Winter Law is laid down by her, not innate to the fae or the mantles. Makes you wonder whether the cannot lie thing is a hard rule too or just something Mab and Titania have laid down.
But Yeah Harry isn't even close to on the same level as Molly now, which kinda makes me sad because it probably means she's going to be mostly out of the way from now on, she's just too powerful for a Dresden sized pond.
Based on the trick Molly pulled at the start of Cold case freezing all that water to walk ashore and assuming, (as Harry indicated in one book is the case), she could apply the same level of power to physical actions she could bench press Hyperion. Thats one of saturn's moons and is bigger than great britain for reference. And that's a mid level estimate of the power she used, (it varies depending on the exact temperature of the seawater before she froze it and the ice after she was done).
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Middle management still has to deal with the underlings. And, Molly is now middle management.