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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on July 03, 2018, 07:55:47 PM
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A Coin went missing during the Demonreach mission. Could it be that when He Who Walks Before was at Demonreach it obtained the Coin from the water? Jim stating that a Walker is Archangel level of power could mean it would enslave a Denarian trapped in it's Coin.
Could the Coin have ended up with a Dark god that's locked up?
If none of these where do you think the Coin is?
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A Coin went missing during the Demonreach mission. Could it be that when He Who Walks Before was at Demonreach it obtained the Coin from the water? Jim stating that a Walker is Archangel level of power could mean it would enslave a Denarian trapped in it's Coin.
Could the Coin have ended up with a Dark god that's locked up?
If none of these where do you think the Coin is?
I've often thought that Mab or one of Mab's flunkies might've taken it. As she justifies to Harry at the end of Ghost Story, (page 485 on Nook) "Your broken body fell from your ship into cold and darkness—and they are my domain."
The way I figure it, Mab was keeping an eye on Harry during Small Favor, just as she was near the end of Changes, and if a Coin fell into the water, she'd take steps to nab it. She's got an axe to grind against the Denarians, after all, and a Coin is a potential source of information.
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Jim stating that a Walker is Archangel level of power could mean it would enslave a Denarian trapped in it's Coin.
Is that new?
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Yeah, the bit about hwwb being on the same/similar power level as uriel.
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Yeah I was pretty surprised that a Walker had that kind of juice, but Jim also said that their are a lot of limitations to what they can do.
Just a guess but I'm thinking that what we have seen so far is just a projection of themselves in this reality, a tiny sliver of themselves.
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I thought the favored theory was that Gard took the coin and Odin/Monoc Securities has it now?
Jim stating that a Walker is Archangel level of power could mean it would enslave a Denarian trapped in it's Coin.
I'm not sure something as inhuman as a Walker could meaningfully "interface" with a Denarian coin. It's possible since we know so little about them, but I rather doubt the Coin would have laid around for years unattended.
Could the Coin have ended up with a Dark god that's locked up?
I doubt it, I think only humans can bond with a Coin.
There's some latitude for variant-humans like the Genoskwa or White Court Vampires (Harry certainly thinks Thomas could be affected), but I think a human-type soul is a necessity. Even if I'm wrong about that, I don't think a Denarian could do much with an actual Immortal, which are immutable barring Halloween effects (Bob talks about the "locked stasis of immortality" in CD).
More likely, I think, would be the coin being imprisoned on its own -- if it was lying unattended on the island, Alfred might be able to take it into custody without a Warden's orders.
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Yeah I was pretty surprised that a Walker had that kind of juice, but Jim also said that their are a lot of limitations to what they can do.
Just a guess but I'm thinking that what we have seen so far is just a projection of themselves in this reality, a tiny sliver of themselves.
That sounds right, because Harry describes HWWBefore/Sharkface as being not larger than Mab but horribly deeper, like a sculpture vs a painting... it has an extra dimension. That could mean that the presence of HHWBefore that Harry encounters is just like a "window" that the true being Outside is reaching through.
Also, when Harry blows up Sharkface's head, a weird cloud entity flies away and the body falls down dead. So what Harry fights might actually be two levels removed: a physical body possessed/animated by a projection of the true HWWBefore. That would explain how Harry could beat something that's on the same "destroy galaxies by blinking" level as Uriel.
Hmmm... if true, that's kind of reminiscent of Ursiel in Death Masks - the mental/spiritual presence in the soulgaze is utterly overwhelming, just like HWWBefore has a massive mental attack. If that parallel is valid (enormous raw "spiritual" power sharply limited by a physical form), then who or what was the Sharkface body originally? A human body mutated by the Outsider's possession? A Fomor or Fomor-servant?
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That sounds right, because Harry describes HWWBefore/Sharkface as being not larger than Mab but horribly deeper, like a sculpture vs a painting... it has an extra dimension. That could mean that the presence of HHWBefore that Harry encounters is just like a "window" that the true being Outside is reaching through.
Also, when Harry blows up Sharkface's head, a weird cloud entity flies away and the body falls down dead. So what Harry fights might actually be two levels removed: a physical body possessed/animated by a projection of the true HWWBefore. That would explain how Harry could beat something that's on the same "destroy galaxies by blinking" level as Uriel.
Hmmm... if true, that's kind of reminiscent of Ursiel in Death Masks - the mental/spiritual presence in the soulgaze is utterly overwhelming, just like HWWBefore has a massive mental attack. If that parallel is valid (enormous raw "spiritual" power sharply limited by a physical form), then who or what was the Sharkface body originally? A human body mutated by the Outsider's possession? A Fomor or Fomor-servant?
There's a (possibly half-joking) WOJ that it was Vitto from WN. Basically somebody asked if it was Vitto and he said something to the effect of "Oh that a really cool Ide- I mean YES! I meant it that way the whole time!"
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Mmm this reminds me of my theory of the Walkers as Horsemen... and wonder about the combination of Walker(or other outside type being) and Starborn in one being, the consequences...
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Mmm this reminds me of my theory of the Walkers as Horsemen... and wonder about the combination of Walker(or other outside type being) and Starborn in one being, the consequences...
But there are 3 Walkers, and 4 Horsemen? I do kind of like the idea but don't know how it would fit.
Pestilence - Nemesis
War - He Who Walks Before
Death - He Who Walks Behind
Famine - ?????
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But there are 3 Walkers, and 4 Horsemen? I do kind of like the idea but don't know how it would fit.
Pestilence - Nemesis
War - He Who Walks Before
Death - He Who Walks Behind
Famine - ?????
That's a misnomer everyone believes because three beer bottles were placed side by side... but no evidence exists this claim is true... and syntax would actually indicate otherwise per SF. "Those who walk before and he who walks behind"
I'd actually break it down
He Who Walks Before=Fearbringer
He Who Walks Before=Despair
He Who Walks Before=Lust(keeping in mind this is inclusive of the idea of greed and other forms of desire)
The End Walks the Land.... aka Mother Winter.
He Who Walks Behind=Death.
Which I know, doesn't include Nemesis, but I don't think N is a simple Walker, and if She is, it's likely a permutation of The End i'm not thinking of, though her aspect tends to be The Chooser not The End.
With any permutations of such being simply the mask of their power they managed to fit into reality al la pestilence, Famine, ect. I think also that previous masks have already been repurposed under new identity in reality to new hosts... With for instance, EK being a decent 'Beasts' while the Archive would closely suit human 'Conquest'.(oh hey and look, they tried to off or corrupt both those guys at one point or another, DB eating EK in the Hollow, SmF getting Ivy a coin, a Nemfected/traitorous coin likely at that)
Technically by the wording of the book, I have more evidence in my favor than 'the 3 Walkers'(especially Beside... though I think he may have added Those Who Walk Beside as a specific turn of in house joke in response to an idea based on people erroraniously thinking the 3rd Walker is Beside, he made Odin and his ilk the 'Beside' humanity guys) we just know 3 are coming for Harry, not any defined # or totality.
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That's a misnomer everyone believes because three beer bottles were placed side by side... but no evidence exists this claim is true...
That was the evidence.... Mac was the "talking head", dropping information for the reader.
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That was the evidence.... Mac was the "talking head", dropping information for the reader.
and he was so very intentionally vague. You can look at the 3 beer bottles and make the leap from 3 are coming for Harry to three are important or matter here all, all day. But it's a deduction, and what's more it was kept vague so we would make the wrong deduction.
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and he was so very intentionally vague. You can look at the 3 beer bottles and make the leap from 3 are coming for Harry to three are important or matter here all, all day. But it's a deduction, and what's more it was kept vague so we would make the wrong deduction.
What exactly led you to this conclusion? Why give Harry any information if it's going to be misleading?
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Aren't the Walkers the Knights to a bigger power? Or did I get that wrong?
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What exactly led you to this conclusion? Why give Harry any information if it's going to be misleading?
It's not misleading, three are coming for him. Your not Harry, it wasn't meant for you, to you it's misleading, because more is applied through our own deductions. It's the closest thing to a red herring we have....
I mean you guys have basically talked about the reasoning behind it without me piping up... Walkers possess mortal hosts. Hwwbh has already created a big imprint on Harry when he met him, one that's slowly being filled up with the same general mirror of self loathing and hatred, tempered inside of more... Harry having 'death' following after just like the Horsemen has Hell/Hades.. Harry is the forth Walker, Behind. They come to make sure their captain is born in the way they want him. Pretty sure this ties into the idea Starborn can Manifest more of them inside reality(being from a dual existence themselves both inside and out? Harry effecting Angels vs N being incapable...) than other hosts might. If a Walker finds the proper Beast to ride to our reality... Horseman.
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Walkers possess mortal hosts. Hwwbh has already created a big imprint on Harry when he met him, one that's slowly being filled up with the same general mirror of self loathing and hatred, tempered inside of more... Harry having 'death' following after just like the Horsemen has Hell/Hades.. Harry is the forth Walker, Behind.
And yet TWG trusted him with the Swords. He was allowed to enter Michael's home while under full Angelic protection. He is allowed to take up a Mantle of Winter making it vulnerable just like when the Summer Mantle was stolen, and he was allowed by the Island to be Warden of the most dangerous things in reality. Not a single Senior Council member used 3rd Eye on him, and realizing the threat had it eliminated?
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And yet TWG trusted him with the Swords. He was allowed to enter Michael's home while under full Angelic protection. He is allowed to take up a Mantle of Winter making it vulnerable just like when the Summer Mantle was stolen, and he was allowed by the Island to be Warden of the most dangerous things in reality. Not a single Senior Council member used 3rd Eye on him, and realizing the threat had it eliminated?
Death is also rebirth, Harry holds the same thread that Odin, in his rebirthing true life to fight the Jotuns, Mac and his all kinds of Phoenix connections, ect, ect. Harry being good at Necromancy is no small coincidence actually. The Thread, as per the 5 powers of creation within the DF, is actually FIRE(as they identify it), the agent of change, death and rebirth, ect.... You do realize the current Death as far as horsemen of Fate goes IS Uriel right? Notice how he uses the other three to accomplish his goals for instance, in classic horseman style. Or that MW as the original destroyer actually had to give birth to the original Death, Hwwbh? Or how He's a weapon but 'not your weapon' per MW(whose world this is not...) and how Mab herself is keeping her enemies close... So i'm really not sure why these in book perspectives would matter since they are predicated on you own presumptions of Death only being a negative thing in itself.
YOU do know what he was meant to be don't you? No? Well remember Martha Kennedy and the council DO per there own words. And yet despite all this going on in the background and even Rashid with his future prediction, none of them actually LET him take DR, and we know pretty much none of them are excited about Harry having nukes either...
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Death is also rebirth, Harry holds the same thread that Odin, in his rebirthing true life to fight the Jotuns, Mac and his all kinds of Phoenix connections, ect, ect. Harry being good at Necromancy is no small coincidence actually. The Thread, as per the 5 powers of creation within the DF, is actually FIRE(as they identify it), the agent of change, death and rebirth, ect.... You do realize the current Death as far as horsemen of Fate goes IS Uriel right? Notice how he uses the other three to accomplish his goals for instance, in classic horseman style. Or that MW as the original destroyer actually had to give birth to the original Death, Hwwbh? Or how He's a weapon but 'not your weapon' per MW(whose world this is not...) and how Mab herself is keeping her enemies close... So i'm really not sure why these in book perspectives would matter since they are predicated on you own presumptions of Death only being a negative thing in itself.
YOU do know what he was meant to be don't you? No? Well remember Martha Kennedy and the council DO per there own words. And yet despite all this going on in the background and even Rashid with his future prediction, none of them actually LET him take DR, and we know pretty much none of them are excited about Harry having nukes either...
You keep saying that I'm making assumptions as if you aren't. Everything you said is an assumption. Death happens every moment of everyday without a Walker being present. Therefor I think that death is still inside of reality.
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You keep saying that I'm making assumptions as if you aren't. Everything you said is an assumption. Death happens every moment of everyday without a Walker being present. Therefor I think that death is still inside of reality.
my presumption isn't silent though, that's the difference. I'm pointing out the silent presumptions that predications are based on, with those presumptions pointed put they have no stronger legs than mine own... that's mine point, all these accepted norms are just as theoretical as my non-standard ones.
And.. Not only is Death still inside reality but they put it in balance by stealing it for mortal hands... as the Blackstaff.(which take note that the hexxenwolf belts are described as nothing more or less than insulation just as the Blackstaff is so the idea it's connected to cosmically phenomenal beings whose powers it co-ops is not a new one or my own...)
*oh and 4 horsemen plus a judge equals five points... five points of creation, five stars on Lady Nights neck, ect.
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my presumption isn't silent though
Sorry, I don't see it that way.
*oh and 4 horsemen plus a judge equals five points... five points of creation, five stars on Lady Nights neck, ect.
Like this... 4 horsemen don't have to be connected in the slightest to 5 points. It's just a wag with faulty connections painted as evidence. I don't care about WAG's. I make them all the time. Just don't accuse me or others of making assumptions while the evidence you're pointing out is created by you, and not actual evidence like a WOJ or clearly laid out in the book as factual.
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Sorry, I don't see it that way.
See, when I admit it (and you don't), its' not silent. when you stubbornly back your own because you disagree with my conclusion but cannot argue my actual points... it's silent indeed, thanks.
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I mean the fact Death has Hell/Hades following after and Denton interpreting Harry's souls as Death with hwwbh being Hell/Hades following after kinda says all I need to prove this particular idea as valid I think anyway.
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See, when I admit it (and you don't), its' not silent. when you stubbornly back your own because you disagree with my conclusion but cannot argue my actual points... it's silent indeed, thanks.
Do I not admit that my idea's are WAG's? The very definition of a Wild ass guess is that it's opinion, an idea. I'm not claiming it as factual.
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Do I not admit that my idea's are WAG's? The very definition of a Wild ass guess is that it's opinion, an idea. I'm not claiming it as factual.
I'm not talking about those... i'm talking about the things that are widely accepted by numerous people which are based almost entirely upon a logical leap somewhere. Even if it's a VERY logical leap to make, like three beer bottles and He Who Walks Beside. It makes a lot of sense, so much so that some don't question it at all if I make a theory about beside or between or betwixt. but point out one thing like those who walk before in the plural and hwwbh in the singular and because it is not the accepted norm it is immediately questioned.(as iirc, it was here by you most recently) There is a disconnect there from accepted theory and nonstandard.
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Aren't the Walkers the Knights to a bigger power? Or did I get that wrong?
No, that's correct. The wording of entropy curse in BR, when Raith's sorceress was summoning HWW Behind, called him an upper servant of the Lord of Slowest Terror.
I think the model is that the Outsiders are servants of the Old Ones that are locked asleep in reality rather than Outside with their servants, and the Walkers are leading the rest of their armies in trying to get back in and wake their lords up.
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No, that's correct. The wording of entropy curse in BR, when Raith's sorceress was summoning HWW Behind, called him an upper servant of the Lord of Slowest Terror.
I think the model is that the Outsiders are servants of the Old Ones that are locked asleep in reality rather than Outside with their servants, and the Walkers are leading the rest of their armies in trying to get back in and wake their lords up.
I think it's more that there are both those Old Ones locked Outside and those trapped and/or Sleeping Inside. But Im not betting on the Outside contingent having no Old Ones among them. Hell, Im not really sure any one reality could actually hold them all.