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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on May 02, 2018, 02:24:31 AM

Title: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Con on May 02, 2018, 02:24:31 AM
Jim has done a good job of setting up several supernatural nations and figures from the Red Court, the Fae both Courts, Monoc Securities, The White Council, The Fomor.

Is their any nation or figure from myth and legend you'd like to see included in the Dresden verse?

For me personally I'd like to see what Drakul is capable of and whether or not he has a small army at his command.

I'd also like to see Peter Pan and Jack Frost as minor nobility in the Summer and Winter Courts respectively as personification of youth in both seasons.

Any other figures or nations anyone can think of?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 02, 2018, 03:21:50 AM
Peter Pan is close to Nico really lol. An Harry is totally Jack Frost to Kringles Old Man Winter.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: WereElephant on May 02, 2018, 01:41:29 PM
For nations or races, I'd love it if I was reading about the Fae and an allusion to the Nac Mac Feegle turned up. Curious to see Mr. Butcher's take on the Golem myth and Faust, and I'm hoping we learn more about the Rakshasa that's been mentioned.

Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Snark Knight on May 02, 2018, 02:22:43 PM
Well, I'd like to get some actual details on the Fomor beyond being a bunch of dark exiles ruled by an empress. And the Black Court as an actual group, rather than just Mavra as an individual antagonist - I still think they're plotting a resurgence.

Also, of course the Jade Court, but that practically goes without saying.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Fcrate on May 02, 2018, 05:37:33 PM
I'd like to see the Prime Evils of the world of Sanctuary, from Diablo I & II & LOD games.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Snark Knight on May 03, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
See, if Baal were to show up as a pagan entity, I'd just be sad that Harry is too out of the loop on modern TV to make any Stargate references.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 03, 2018, 02:14:02 AM
While there's no reason to believe it's the case, I'm intrigued with the idea of little d dragons being organized into clans that used to serve the big D Dragons.  Clans that are largely self-managed now that most of the big guys are gone or retired.

I'm also interested in seeing a society of creatures living amongst humans.  Other than the Wamps and Ramps, we haven't seen that many creatures trying to pass themselves off as human.  Something like the network of assassins, and their properties and such, in John Wick.  Only not just assassins.  Hotels that dispose of victims for their clientele; restaurants that meet certain supernatural nutritional requirements; an entire society of creatures not affiliated with the Courts or the Fomor or any other big faction.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 03, 2018, 05:38:59 AM
Golden Age Humans – The Golden Age is the only age that falls within the rule of Cronus. Created by the immortals who live on Olympus, these humans were said to live among the gods, and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to a very old age but with a youthful appearance and eventually died peacefully. Their spirits live on as "guardians" of mortals.

Meeting these guardians if they exist would be interesting.  There are different stages of humans in the Greek mythology:

Silver Age – The Silver Age and every age that follows fall within the rule of Cronus's successor and son, Zeus. Men in the Silver age lived for one hundred years under the dominion of their mothers. They lived only a short time as grown adults, and spent that time in strife with one another. During this Age men refused to worship the gods and Zeus destroyed them for their impiety. After death, humans of this age became "blessed spirits" of the underworld.

Bronze Age – Men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough, as war was their purpose and passion. Zeus created these humans out of the ash tree. Their armor was forged of bronze, as were their homes, and tools. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dank house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion.

Heroic Age – The Heroic Age is the one age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only age that improves upon the age it follows. It was the heroes of this Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium.

Iron Age – Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil."

The Iron age humans sound as if Nemesis infected, or even possibly like Outsiders themselves.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Guardianw007 on May 04, 2018, 04:44:46 PM
Ooh, Ooh!  I wanna play, I wanna play!

The Council of Arcturus, a small nation about the size of a medium sized clan, living on their own sovereign territory, New Camelot (I'm thinking either a large-ish plot of land in the middle of either Canada or the Outback [miles and miles of miles and miles] or an unassuming island in an archipelago, like the Solomon Islands or the Seychelles).  Traditionally ruled by an oversight committee ("The knights") and head by a chairperson, The Lady of the Lake,("Lady") a title that was liberalized in the 80's to accommodate the first male recipient ("Lord") to collect enough political power to rule the council.

Politically, they are rabidly pro-human, and messianic to the nth degree, believing that one day the star will rise again and save the world from evil.  Until such time, theirs is to shine, the brightest light in the dark until this time.  Thus, seeing themselves as the true guardian's and protectors of mankind against all its predators, they get on imperfectly with the other pro-human factions, who they view as, at best, helpful amateurs including the White Council with whom they have an EPIC historic mistrust because of ancient blame for the absence of the star being shifted to Merlin (OG flavor).

Currently, strange rumors have begun to circulate in the clued in world of knights, seeming to be acting in ways contrary to humanities' interests, again allegedly because, "If humanity is to be saved, it must first be in some form of danger."
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 04, 2018, 05:22:06 PM
Asgard.....

(http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Thor-Movie-Poster-Odin-Eyepatch.jpg)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 04, 2018, 05:28:09 PM
Ooh, Ooh!  I wanna play, I wanna play!

The Council of Arcturus, a small nation about the size of a medium sized clan, living on their own sovereign territory, New Camelot (I'm thinking either a large-ish plot of land in the middle of either Canada or the Outback [miles and miles of miles and miles] or an unassuming island in an archipelago, like the Solomon Islands or the Seychelles).  Traditionally ruled by an oversight committee ("The knights") and head by a chairperson, The Lady of the Lake,("Lady") a title that was liberalized in the 80's to accommodate the first male recipient ("Lord") to collect enough political power to rule the council.

Politically, they are rabidly pro-human, and messianic to the nth degree, believing that one day the star will rise again and save the world from evil.  Until such time, theirs is to shine, the brightest light in the dark until this time.  Thus, seeing themselves as the true guardian's and protectors of mankind against all its predators, they get on imperfectly with the other pro-human factions, who they view as, at best, helpful amateurs including the White Council with whom they have an EPIC historic mistrust because of ancient blame for the absence of the star being shifted to Merlin (OG flavor).

Currently, strange rumors have begun to circulate in the clued in world of knights, seeming to be acting in ways contrary to humanities' interests, again allegedly because, "If humanity is to be saved, it must first be in some form of danger."

Might I recommend Brasil?  (No, that's not a typo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil_(mythical_island)

It's more Irish than British/Arthurian (for that, you'd want Avalon, the isle of apples), but a mist-shrouded island that only appears for one day every seven years seems good for a secret society.  As long as they have ways of getting off and on the island (Ways?) the rest of the time.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Kindler on May 04, 2018, 06:07:32 PM
Something like the network of assassins, and their properties and such, in John Wick.  Only not just assassins.  Hotels that dispose of victims for their clientele; restaurants that meet certain supernatural nutritional requirements; an entire society of creatures not affiliated with the Courts or the Fomor or any other big faction.

I'd be very much down with this. One of the cable networks (HBO, Starz, or Showtime, can't remember) is producing a TV series called The Continental based on the John Wick universe. I've frequently commented that, for a movie series with a plot that essentially boils down to "Keanu Reeves shoots people in unlikely and interesting ways," the lore is ludicrously deep, and I'm pumped to see it continue beyond the movies.

Svartalves or one of the other neutral parties might be a good fit for this.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Guardianw007 on May 04, 2018, 06:23:25 PM
Might I recommend Brasil?  (No, that's not a typo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil_(mythical_island)

It's more Irish than British/Arthurian (for that, you'd want Avalon, the isle of apples), but a mist-shrouded island that only appears for one day every seven years seems good for a secret society.  As long as they have ways of getting off and on the island (Ways?) the rest of the time.

Excellent!

The original Avalon was described as being a boat ride away, "Across a vast sea".  So Brasil would work, though I'd have them on a smaller island adjacent to where Brasil appears.

Really, the whole thing would simply be an excuse for Harry to refer to the current (Male) "Lady" as, a "Watery Tart" and/or a "moistened bint" (to the laughter of no one save, possibly, Martinez who falls out of his chair with suppressed laughter) just before we saw the violence inherent in the system.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 04, 2018, 06:27:41 PM
I'd be very much down with this. One of the cable networks (HBO, Starz, or Showtime, can't remember) is producing a TV series called The Continental based on the John Wick universe. I've frequently commented that, for a movie series with a plot that essentially boils down to "Keanu Reeves shoots people in unlikely and interesting ways," the lore is ludicrously deep, and I'm pumped to see it continue beyond the movies.

Svartalves or one of the other neutral parties might be a good fit for this.
Nah, the Svartalves are their own "Faction".  Their own "Court".  I'm talking about the existence of unfactioned creatures.  Creatures that aren't unique, but of small enough number that they're not a "Power" in their own right.  They're not subservient to the Sidhe, or the Fomor, or anyone else.  They'd be the equivalent of the "Wild Fae", only they're really not beholden to anyone.  The Wild Fae still have to choose sides at times.  I'm proposing a society that says "No" to the wars between the Sidhe and the Fomor and the Vamps and everything else. 

Now, the Svartalves and other Courts could obviously be part of, and involved with, the supernatural community.  But it wouldn't be dependent on any one group.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 04, 2018, 06:44:50 PM
Excellent!

The original Avalon was described as being a boat ride away, "Across a vast sea".  So Brasil would work, though I'd have them on a smaller island adjacent to where Brasil appears.

Really, the whole thing would simply be an excuse for Harry to refer to the current (Male) "Lady" as, a "Watery Tart" and/or a "moistened bint" (to the laughter of no one save, possibly, Martinez who falls out of his chair with suppressed laughter) just before we saw the violence inherent in the system.
I could see where there'd be a "Lady Robert" and Harry would ask how that's supposed to work, and Molly would whisper something about not assuming genders, and Harry would say something embarrassing (as us Gen-Xers do about such things), and then things would fall apart.   ;D

As long as Bob was there so he could recount the story later.
 Bob: "And then Harry punched the Lady in the face."
 Murphy: "Dresden!"
 Harry: "It wasn't like that!  It wasn't a woman!"
 Murphy: "The Lady wasn't a woman?"
 Harry: "Not a real woman."
 <offended stares all around>
 Harry: "No, I don't mean-- he could be a woman if he-- I mean--"
 Toe-moss: "Harr-eee.  How could you?!"
 Harry: "Don't you start!"
 Murphy: "So much for that chivalrous streak."
 Harry: "He looked like a man!"
 Molly: "Alright, Ms. Swan, let it go."
 Harry: "..."
 Molly: "I will say this about the Lady, though.  He could take a punch."
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Guardianw007 on May 04, 2018, 07:13:11 PM
I could see where there'd be a "Lady Robert" and Harry would ask how that's supposed to work, and Molly would whisper something about not assuming genders, and Harry would say something embarrassing (as us Gen-Xers do about such things), and then things would fall apart.   ;D

As long as Bob was there so he could recount the story later.
 Bob: "And then Harry punched the Lady in the face."
 Murphy: "Dresden!"
 Harry: "It wasn't like that!  It wasn't a woman!"
 Murphy: "The Lady wasn't a woman?"
 Harry: "Not a real woman."
 <offended stares all around>
 Harry: "No, I don't mean-- he could be a woman if he-- I mean--"
 Toe-moss: "Harr-eee.  How could you?!"
 Harry: "Don't you start!"
 Murphy: "So much for that chivalrous streak."
 Harry: "He looked like a man!"
 Molly: "Alright, Ms. Swan, let it go."
 Harry: "..."
 Molly: "I will say this about the Lady, though.  He could take a punch."

*sigh*  You just get me.

You should probably have a doctor look at that.  :D

Also, for the record, as a Chicano I should apologize to my ancestors for referring to Ramirez as "Martinez".

"¡Mucho mal, mijo!  ¡ No somos todos intercambiables!"
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Snark Knight on May 04, 2018, 07:17:59 PM
Nah, the Svartalves are their own "Faction".  Their own "Court".  I'm talking about the existence of unfactioned creatures.  Creatures that aren't unique, but of small enough number that they're not a "Power" in their own right.  They're not subservient to the Sidhe, or the Fomor, or anyone else.  They'd be the equivalent of the "Wild Fae", only they're really not beholden to anyone.  The Wild Fae still have to choose sides at times.  I'm proposing a society that says "No" to the wars between the Sidhe and the Fomor and the Vamps and everything else. 
Now, the Svartalves and other Courts could obviously be part of, and involved with, the supernatural community.  But it wouldn't be dependent on any one group.


Well, the freeholding lords are individuals without factions, and the Jade Court are pretty much fanatically neutral when it comes to other nations' conflicts. But it might be a matter of needing a certain measure of power (either individually or collectively) before you're more trouble than you're worth for anyone bigger to draft into their hegemony like the wyldfae are subject to.

To use a real-world example, Switzerland's neutrality wasn't respected throughout the 20'th century just because everyone else trusted them to mind their own business. Plenty of other small countries were non-threatening and still wound up annexed because they were in the way for rival great powers trying to get at each other. Switzerland's neutrality was respected because they fortified all the ways into their territory into world-class m*****f***ing deathtraps and then minded their own business behind their borders from a position of strength.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 04, 2018, 08:42:15 PM

Well, the freeholding lords are individuals without factions, and the Jade Court are pretty much fanatically neutral when it comes to other nations' conflicts. But it might be a matter of needing a certain measure of power (either individually or collectively) before you're more trouble than you're worth for anyone bigger to draft into their hegemony like the wyldfae are subject to.

To use a real-world example, Switzerland's neutrality wasn't respected throughout the 20'th century just because everyone else trusted them to mind their own business. Plenty of other small countries were non-threatening and still wound up annexed because they were in the way for rival great powers trying to get at each other. Switzerland's neutrality was respected because they fortified all the ways into their territory into world-class m*****f***ing deathtraps and then minded their own business behind their borders from a position of strength.
Right, but I'm not really talking about a nation.  I'm talking about a society of creatures made up of members that aren't really worth trying to control.

Take the Adlets, for example.  They're an Inuit supernatural species with the upper bodies of humans and the lower bodies of dogs whose only notable ability is to run fast.  They're not part of a structured pantheon; they're not gods or demigods.  They're just creatures that exist.

And rather than them being isolationists like the group in Cold Case, I want to hear where they integrated into human society using illusions to hide their legs.  They used their natural speed in centuries past to corner the messenger market, and they're now dominating the bike messanger and delivery services in cities across the globe.

Stuff like that.  Low level, every-day supernatural life.  Kobbs working on shoes like in IMBT.  Et cetera, et cetera.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: exartiem on May 06, 2018, 06:14:47 PM
The Watchers.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: dspringer1 on May 07, 2018, 06:03:53 PM
I think the series is long overdue for some participation by a supernatural nation associated with Native Americans.  I get why it is unlikely.   If these supernatural critters need some strong measure of belief to "maintain the connection" like the Summer and Winter courts need, then the fact that very few Native Americans survived into the 20th century probably banished most native supernaturals to the deeper areas of the never never.   

The one exception is the red court, which really is a native American based supernatural nation as it was originally associated with the Azteks and like nations in central America.  I suspect that it was the massive loss of life and Christianization of natives that allowed the Red Court to spread and grow into such a great supernatural power as the competing powers were swept away or banished.   

Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 07, 2018, 08:47:45 PM
I think the series is long overdue for some participation by a supernatural nation associated with Native Americans.  I get why it is unlikely.   If these supernatural critters need some strong measure of belief to "maintain the connection" like the Summer and Winter courts need, then the fact that very few Native Americans survived into the 20th century probably banished most native supernaturals to the deeper areas of the never never.   

The one exception is the red court, which really is a native American based supernatural nation as it was originally associated with the Azteks and like nations in central America.  I suspect that it was the massive loss of life and Christianization of natives that allowed the Red Court to spread and grow into such a great supernatural power as the competing powers were swept away or banished.
There are some WOJs that make me think the lines of Importance arent always that literal.  For example, there's one that you says you couldnt truly Oblivionate(?) the Creator, because somebody would always ask themselves Where did this all Come From, and that would be enough of a link to the appropriate entity.  Similarly I think the Fae Courts are somewhat insulated by being so directly intertwined with the Seasons and the Natural Order, such that even if the human population stops believing in the literal existence of Fairies, they still believe in the Seasons and so the Fae will always have at least a small Link to Reality.  Which I do not think is a coincidence, I believe such a solid foundation is required to adequately Guard the Gates.

So in the case of Native American entities, they'd all be more naturalistic in general, and I theorize that being so in tune with the natural world would help them survive beyond the loss of literal worship.  I mean, people may not believe in a literally walking talking Trickster God, but they do still believe in Clever Coyotes.  Maybe that is enough?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 07, 2018, 08:51:54 PM
Oh, to the OP:

I want to see more of the offshoot humanoid races and society, especially since they count as Human enough for a Coin, but are wildly removed from mortal culture.  I really want to see cultures, Multiple cultures for a whole host of off-shoots.  Give me a Council of the Wildfolk that includes an uneasy alliance between Forrest People, Rock People, Ice People (yeti), and even some sort of scaled Water People (merfolk? atlanteans?)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Avernite on May 10, 2018, 08:53:04 AM
So in the case of Native American entities, they'd all be more naturalistic in general, and I theorize that being so in tune with the natural world would help them survive beyond the loss of literal worship.  I mean, people may not believe in a literally walking talking Trickster God, but they do still believe in Clever Coyotes.  Maybe that is enough?
If it's that abstract, it may be enough but wouldn't necessarily be a specific Native American personification; Kringle/Odin/Santa are all powered by some of the same belief, and so there'd hardly be space for Native-Santa to be his own thing; he'd just be another mask of the same being.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 10, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
If it's that abstract, it may be enough but wouldn't necessarily be a specific Native American personification; Kringle/Odin/Santa are all powered by some of the same belief, and so there'd hardly be space for Native-Santa to be his own thing; he'd just be another mask of the same being.
I disagree, on the basis that Odin and Santa ARE different beings, they just happen to be sharing the same host body/intellect at the moment.  Santa and Odin ARE the masks, and it is only circumstance (and presumably skill and planning) that has kept them together this long.  I would assume they'd have different Inheritance patterns, and would go to different hosts should the current one be killed, for example.  Santa would almost certainly go to an elf or some fae/changeling, while Odin would more likely go to one of the remaining Aesir.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 10, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
Meh.  I'm not as convinced that Odin is a mask or mantle.

And i don't think that Santa Claus was a naturally occurring mantle; I think it was constructed specifically for Odin to keep him involved after the handover of the Guardianship.

As for the "native santa", maybe the Kringle mantle was built to incorporate "Handsome Fellow" into itself, but I don't think there's any faith to be had from that.  Not much faith in Kringle, for that matter.

And I do think that there are different entities for different pantheons.  I don't think that the Hopi's Eototo Kachina is the same as Odin.  Both are the father figures in their pantheons, but they're not the same.  Angwusnasomtaka has some parallels to the Mothers, or Gaia if they're not her, but I don't think they're necessarily the same entities.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 10, 2018, 02:23:30 PM
Meh.  I'm not as convinced that Odin is a mask or mantle.
I am, but mostly because Im relatively confident he is not the original All-father.

Quote
And i don't think that Santa Claus was a naturally occurring mantle; I think it was constructed specifically for Odin to keep him involved after the handover of the Guardianship.
Im not entirely convinced any of them would qualify as "naturally occuring" with the possible exceptions of things like The Eldest, or maaaaybe the Erlking. 

Quote
As for the "native santa", maybe the Kringle mantle was built to incorporate "Handsome Fellow" into itself, but I don't think there's any faith to be had from that.  Not much faith in Kringle, for that matter.
You have apparently missed the Elf-on-the-shelf phenomenon :P  Faith does not need to be filtered through a church or holy book to be real.  And Frankly, Kids do Belief better than we adults do. 


Quote
And I do think that there are different entities for different pantheons.  I don't think that the Hopi's Eototo Kachina is the same as Odin.  Both are the father figures in their pantheons, but they're not the same.  Angwusnasomtaka has some parallels to the Mothers, or Gaia if they're not her, but I don't think they're necessarily the same entities.
Qualified agreement.  I dont have any reason to believe that *all* similar deities are the same entity by any means, but Im not ruling it out (on a case-by-case basis) either, given what we've been told about how Immortals fight over mantles.  And in the case of the greco/roman split I think we can be confident that those were an evolution of the same entities, and evolution that continued well beyond the limits of the popular myths, given the whole Fae/Hecate link. 
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Con on May 12, 2018, 03:18:33 AM
I am, but mostly because Im relatively confident he is not the original All-father.

To you mean the translation of his name meaning 'younger father'.


Im not entirely convinced any of them would qualify as "naturally occuring" with the possible exceptions of things like The Eldest, or maaaaybe the Erlking. 
You have apparently missed the Elf-on-the-shelf phenomenon :P  Faith does not need to be filtered through a church or holy book to be real.  And Frankly, Kids do Belief better than we adults do. 

Qualified agreement.  I dont have any reason to believe that *all* similar deities are the same entity by any means, but Im not ruling it out (on a case-by-case basis) either, given what we've been told about how Immortals fight over mantles.  And in the case of the greco/roman split I think we can be confident that those were an evolution of the same entities, and evolution that continued well beyond the limits of the popular myths, given the whole Fae/Hecate link. 

There's also the evidence of a Centaur in the Summer Court suggesting the Fae took many Greek mythological beings into their fold.

In the comic book with the Hecaetean Hag Bob said that the original Hecate arose in an ascension like ritual that the Hag was attempting to perform. I can't remember all of the details but it sounded very Dark Hallowesque.

Theirs also the statue of Hecate in Skin Game, and Hades reminiscing about how Hecate kept Demeter distracted on Hades and Persephone
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 12, 2018, 05:32:21 PM
To you mean the translation of his name meaning 'younger father'.
Yup, I really dig ont he idea that he's not the original.  Also it helps that in every appearance Harry is very careful to not actually, definitively state that vadderung IS Odin, he hedges with something "or he does a damn good impression" or something like that.   

Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 12, 2018, 08:39:29 PM
thought the translation was more like "son of thunder" or something closer?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Con on May 13, 2018, 02:38:38 AM
Well any true die hard Star Wars fan will know that Vader means father, from their 'ung' means 'young'. i.e. Young Father.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: exartiem on May 13, 2018, 03:38:28 PM
Harry does refer to Vadderung as "Thunder's Father".  Could Vadderung actually BE Thor?  After Ragnarok, the ending of their world, they reestablished here as mortals?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: exartiem on May 13, 2018, 03:41:27 PM
Well any true die hard Star Wars fan will know that Vader means father,

Waitasecond, there, pard.  DARTH DAD?!?!
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 13, 2018, 04:17:58 PM
Quote
In Norse mythology, Thor is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing and fertility. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology and paganism was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German as Donar, stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz.
Vadderung isn't a precise word but it comes back in Germanic as 'shifting, transferring" as well as Hereditary or inheritance. So Thor's likely... or Thor's son. I still see a mesh up of Greek into Norse mythos. An inheritance happened there somewhere the same as Hecate=Fae hierarchy.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 13, 2018, 06:29:13 PM
Donar = Thor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donar_(disambiguation) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donar_(disambiguation))
Vadder = Father
-ung suffix = -ing suffix https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ung (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ung)

The name translates to "Thor Fathering".  An apt name for Odin, who fathered Thor.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 13, 2018, 06:58:04 PM
Except you'd be hard pressed to find Odin associated with the weather in any mythology.
Quote
Odin is often associated with lightning in the franchise, but in mythology he is never mentioned as a god of lightning or the sky, unlike his son Thor.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 13, 2018, 08:02:19 PM
Except you'd be hard pressed to find Odin associated with the weather in any mythology.
Where is this quote coming from?

One of Odin's many names is Þundr, which means Thunderer.  Another is Viðrir, which means Stormer.  Another is Hveðrungr, which means "Roarer" or "Weather-Maker".  He also has at least seven names that incorporate "Father" into the name, at least one of which refers to one of his sons (Baldrsfaðr, Baldr's father).

Harry does refer to Vadderung as "Thunder's Father".  Could Vadderung actually BE Thor?  After Ragnarok, the ending of their world, they reestablished here as mortals?
Thor and Donar translate as "thunder".  So the father of "thunder" would be Odin.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 13, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
Yes he has many names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin But no weather associations directly. And he's the 'Stormer' in the edda's when arguing with Loki, and of course his other names support this boisterous nature such as Hjarrandi= Screamer Or Göllnir =Yeller Óðins nöfn (3)
Gollorr=Yeller Óðins nöfn (1)
Göllungr=Yeller Óðins nöfn (5)
Seems his motif is raging at people, not calling down the lightning.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 13, 2018, 10:43:05 PM
Yes he has many names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin But no weather associations directly. And he's the 'Stormer' in the edda's when arguing with Loki, and of course his other names support this boisterous nature such as Hjarrandi= Screamer Or Göllnir =Yeller Óðins nöfn (3)
Gollorr=Yeller Óðins nöfn (1)
Göllungr=Yeller Óðins nöfn (5)
Seems his motif is raging at people, not calling down the lightning.
I don't think it was just for raging at people, because it appears to mostly be used in description of battle cries. 

Here's an article (http://www.medievalists.net/2017/09/weather-ruled-vikings/) written by a Cal State grad student (http://fullerton.academia.edu/DanielleTurner), that seems well versed in Viking history, about how Odin was associated with the weather.

Now maybe she's wrong.  But she seems like more of an authority than most internet sites, which regurgitate things on other sites.

As for DV being Thor after Odin died in Ragnarok, let's not forget that Thor was also supposed to die in Ragnarok.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 13, 2018, 11:40:39 PM
I'm too tired of my internet Fu&*()g up to rewrite this crap a third time. But suffice it to say if the Edda's say they both died then nothing in them can be applied to figuring out our current Odins ID. also The Norse also prayed and sacrificed to the god Njord for safe seafaring and to Odin for general weather[/quote]I'd say it implies more of a sun god position. and I'd rather trust the sourced material still than an article written this last year by a student.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 14, 2018, 03:23:58 AM
I'm too tired of my internet Fu&*()g up to rewrite this crap a third time. But suffice it to say if the Edda's say they both died then nothing in them can be applied to figuring out our current Odins ID. also The Norse also prayed and sacrificed to the god Njord for safe seafaring and to Odin for general weatherI'd say it implies more of a sun god position. and I'd rather trust the sourced material still than an article written this last year by a student.
You're assuming that Ragnarok already occurred, but WoJ is that Loki is still locked up.  Ergo, he's still alive, rather than being dead like he's supposed to be after Ragnarok.  Everything points to Ragnarok not having occurred yet.

Again, what sources material?  I haven't found many translated texts.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 14, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
You're assuming that Ragnarok already occurred, but WoJ is that Loki is still locked up.  Ergo, he's still alive, rather than being dead like he's supposed to be after Ragnarok.  Everything points to Ragnarok not having occurred yet.

Again, what sources material?  I haven't found many translated texts.
Many Ragnaroks have happened, or at least one I can evidence, Going back to Bob's original explanation of the queens whom used to be. They don't exist on our plain, can't anymore. Because they are primal spirits of what was, they are literally the Ghosts of a previous epoch. (You might point to the same thing for Hades and why in this age he can no longer effect fate. He admitted he could before by default then, noting a considerable difference then in how he can interact with our world now by comparison.) They birthed the new Age, also why they are now 'Mothers' despite new evidence pointing to the Queen as the one whose giving birth, they already gave birth.
Ragnarok is the end of an age and the beginning of a new one, the lifting of the veil, ect. Odin's Ragnarok happened when Valhalla fell from position on the Gates. The Jotuns retreat and reformation as Mab's court is also another point towards his story already having played out once before.... Besides, Harry killed Fenris in book 2 so no Ragnarok for you!? Unless he just freed him from the curse that contained his manifestation, Harry you dolt.

*you can find a lot of them online for free, the original Edda's even. I don't always keep track of the pages though.
**it's a poor explanation but the one were I add in the gyre and why time is repeating itself is much more complicated. The real evidence would become that it is in our mythology already.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: exartiem on May 14, 2018, 11:27:58 PM
But, jthe guy's name isn't Donar Vadder.  It's Donar VadderUNG.  Could the full name translate into "Thor Odinson"?  Or Son of the Father (All-Father).

Another theory, the Asgardians became mortals in order to forestall Ragnarok.  Hiding the ones who were supposed to die to begin it.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 15, 2018, 03:40:29 AM
But, jthe guy's name isn't Donar Vadder.  It's Donar VadderUNG.  Could the full name translate into "Thor Odinson"?  Or Son of the Father (All-Father).

Another theory, the Asgardians became mortals in order to forestall Ragnarok.  Hiding the ones who were supposed to die to begin it.
Like I said, "ung" means "ing".  The full translation would be "Thor Fathering".  He that fathered Thor.

Unless, of course, you want to interpret it differently, and say Thor obtained his father's mantle, and he's now "Fathering" it up.   ::)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 15, 2018, 03:55:07 AM
Many Ragnaroks have happened, or at least one I can evidence, Going back to Bob's original explanation of the queens whom used to be. They don't exist on our plain, can't anymore. Because they are primal spirits of what was, they are literally the Ghosts of a previous epoch. (You might point to the same thing for Hades and why in this age he can no longer effect fate. He admitted he could before by default then, noting a considerable difference then in how he can interact with our world now by comparison.) They birthed the new Age, also why they are now 'Mothers' despite new evidence pointing to the Queen as the one whose giving birth, they already gave birth.
Ragnarok is the end of an age and the beginning of a new one, the lifting of the veil, ect. Odin's Ragnarok happened when Valhalla fell from position on the Gates. The Jotuns retreat and reformation as Mab's court is also another point towards his story already having played out once before.... Besides, Harry killed Fenris in book 2 so no Ragnarok for you!? Unless he just freed him from the curse that contained his manifestation, Harry you dolt.

*you can find a lot of them online for free, the original Edda's even. I don't always keep track of the pages though.
**it's a poor explanation but the one were I add in the gyre and why time is repeating itself is much more complicated. The real evidence would become that it is in our mythology already.
That's all an interpretation, and one that makes sense.  But it's not fact.  For the Norse pantheon, there's only one apocalypse (Ragnarok) that calls for the deaths of Odin and Loki and Thor, at least two of which are still alive regardless of the theory.

Now, if you wanted to argue that the series is in the middle of Ragnarok, and Aldar Rok has passed but Tiva Rok hasn't, it might make things more plausible.  I don't know the specifics of the series of events, but maybe it's possible.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 15, 2018, 11:48:53 AM
That's all an interpretation, and one that makes sense.  But it's not fact.  For the Norse pantheon, there's only one apocalypse (Ragnarok) that calls for the deaths of Odin and Loki and Thor, at least two of which are still alive regardless of the theory.

Now, if you wanted to argue that the series is in the middle of Ragnarok, and Aldar Rok has passed but Tiva Rok hasn't, it might make things more plausible.  I don't know the specifics of the series of events, but maybe it's possible.
Agreed.  If we were post-Ragnarok, and by that I mean /This/ Ragnarok, the one that Odin prophesied, then Loki, Odin and thor would all be dead, and only Líf and Lífþrasir would remain (of the Aesir at least, though the myth is they are the only surviving Humans, the next cycle's Adam and Eve)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 15, 2018, 03:54:34 PM
That's all an interpretation, and one that makes sense.  But it's not fact.  For the Norse pantheon, there's only one apocalypse (Ragnarok) that calls for the deaths of Odin and Loki and Thor, at least two of which are still alive regardless of the theory.

Now, if you wanted to argue that the series is in the middle of Ragnarok, and Aldar Rok has passed but Tiva Rok hasn't, it might make things more plausible.  I don't know the specifics of the series of events, but maybe it's possible.
*thinking man pose* Do we have any other thing for history and mythology..?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 15, 2018, 07:05:00 PM
Simple words is Time loop btw. Everything is on a time loop, it's what a gyre is. Everything that's happening has happened before and will again, Will continue to for as long as existence is a thing in the DF verse.
It's also where Jim tied Arthur into it, the extra proof for the queens descending from Arthurian mythos, is why he has the queens labeled such. Comparatively to the Once and Future King, The one who is, is a place holder because as we know neither are the originals but changed hands close to when the gyre rotated in the middle, the twisting of what is.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Snark Knight on May 15, 2018, 07:39:44 PM
Many Ragnaroks have happened, or at least one I can evidence, Going back to Bob's original explanation of the queens whom used to be. They don't exist on our plain, can't anymore. Because they are primal spirits of what was, they are literally the Ghosts of a previous epoch.

I don't see the link. For starters, different pantheons. Also, I'm not convinced the Mothers are utterly incapable of visiting Earth. They certainly don't do it regularly, but that could be chalked up to them not wanting to warp reality, or Mother Winter not wanting to travel without her "walking stick" and Mother Summer refraining from doing so for the sake of balance.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 15, 2018, 08:15:18 PM
You're assuming that Ragnarok already occurred, but WoJ is that Loki is still locked up.  Ergo, he's still alive, rather than being dead like he's supposed to be after Ragnarok.  Everything points to Ragnarok not having occurred yet.

Again, what sources material?  I haven't found many translated texts.

Ragnarok isn't Odin supposed to die as well?  Last I checked he was running around kicking ass and taking names.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 15, 2018, 08:52:19 PM
Ragnarok isn't Odin supposed to die as well?  Last I checked he was running around kicking ass and taking names.
Everyone dies according to the myths, with the exception of a pair of characters (literally named Life and Lover of Life) whose only significance is that they will survive by hiding is a specific forrest (called Hoddmímis Holt).  Loki, Heimdall, Odin, Thor, Frey & Freya, Surtur... That's the whole point: unlike The Apocalypse which (literally by translation) is about some big Revelation, Ragnarok is "The Twilight of the Gods" as in the process and event by which they all End. 
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 15, 2018, 09:29:17 PM
I don't see the link. For starters, different pantheons. Also, I'm not convinced the Mothers are utterly incapable of visiting Earth. They certainly don't do it regularly, but that could be chalked up to them not wanting to warp reality, or Mother Winter not wanting to travel without her "walking stick" and Mother Summer refraining from doing so for the sake of balance.
*snickers to self* different pantheons? My dear Sir we have in the Fae make up no less than 3 distinct pantheon's all colliding into one, lets not forget Hecate is Greek, and the two have a direct connection to the Queens based upon Hades own defense systems. Odin is Norse but is mysteriously subplanted into a largely irish mythology which Bob's fairy wars directly links to the Vanir and aesir. Separate Pantheons indeed... and besides the noticeable lack of the main greek/roman deities who later were reformed(a reforming of identity would certainly be a Godly death/twilight btw) We have Hades talk with Harry to point to a little ahh Nemfection apparent in their continued actions and we Have Thomas's soulgaze(to which I've already well connected the heirs of the sons of Ares and Aphrodite) to show the Greek pantheon is perhaps in absentee now. It suffered the same Decay as showcased in Denton's actual mind. But Thomas's soulgaze was not purely a representation of his own mind, but of his identity as a whole.
*why do they actually warp reality though? what about them disagree's with it? Look at another example, Shagnasty, whom is an angelic ghost who violates said rules by staying on earth, he warps reality only slightly because he's not quite strong enough for more, but his fundamental existence here is described through DR as wrong in the extreme, and that's before we find out we keep such creatures amongst the rejects of reality. Shagnasty is directly described as a ghost in order for the dine, an excorsim to effect him, he's also, by the very story of the skinwalkers, is describes as from a different age where he was supposed to have 'moved on' and refused. Bringing it back to the spirits who effect reality and fate whom are not supposed to. MW has no Rent, no GreenCard and has been placed on the blacklist of do not travel, for a very good reason. A cosmic level reason.

*which is NOT to say she won't one day walk the land, and for good reason. An oh my stars and garters, the day she stands up unaided by stick or escort to walk the land is a day I actually look forward to seeing in all it's terrible glory... and sadness as we watch the one who follows. ;-(
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 16, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
Ragnarok isn't Odin supposed to die as well?  Last I checked he was running around kicking ass and taking names.
That's my point.  Odin and Loki are still alive.  Ergo, Ragnarok has not yet occurred.

*snickers to self* different pantheons? My dear Sir we have in the Fae make up no less than 3 distinct pantheon's all colliding into one, lets not forget Hecate is Greek, and the two have a direct connection to the Queens based upon Hades own defense systems. Odin is Norse but is mysteriously subplanted into a largely irish mythology which Bob's fairy wars directly links to the Vanir and aesir. Separate Pantheons indeed... and besides the noticeable lack of the main greek/roman deities who later were reformed(a reforming of identity would certainly be a Godly death/twilight btw) We have Hades talk with Harry to point to a little ahh Nemfection apparent in their continued actions and we Have Thomas's soulgaze(to which I've already well connected the heirs of the sons of Ares and Aphrodite) to show the Greek pantheon is perhaps in absentee now. It suffered the same Decay as showcased in Denton's actual mind. But Thomas's soulgaze was not purely a representation of his own mind, but of his identity as a whole.
*why do they actually warp reality though? what about them disagree's with it? Look at another example, Shagnasty, whom is an angelic ghost who violates said rules by staying on earth, he warps reality only slightly because he's not quite strong enough for more, but his fundamental existence here is described through DR as wrong in the extreme, and that's before we find out we keep such creatures amongst the rejects of reality. Shagnasty is directly described as a ghost in order for the dine, an excorsim to effect him, he's also, by the very story of the skinwalkers, is describes as from a different age where he was supposed to have 'moved on' and refused. Bringing it back to the spirits who effect reality and fate whom are not supposed to. MW has no Rent, no GreenCard and has been placed on the blacklist of do not travel, for a very good reason. A cosmic level reason.

*which is NOT to say she won't one day walk the land, and for good reason. An oh my stars and garters, the day she stands up unaided by stick or escort to walk the land is a day I actually look forward to seeing in all it's terrible glory... and sadness as we watch the one who follows. ;-(
wut.

I think it's a case of JB's classical use of the word Catholic.  As in universal, all-encompassing.  All the pantheons are part of the whole.  Some might overlap, while others stand apart.  But they're all connected at the root.

None of that means that Ragnarok has already occurred, though.  There's no reason to believe that Odin died and came back.  There's no reason to believe Vadderung is Thor.  Are either possible?  Sure.  But I don't think there's been evidence for either.  Just because the Sidhe change hosts doesn't mean everyone does, or can, or will.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 16, 2018, 02:05:19 AM
That's my point.  Odin and Loki are still alive.  Ergo, Ragnarok has not yet occurred.
wut.

I think it's a case of JB's classical use of the word Catholic.  As in universal, all-encompassing.  All the pantheons are part of the whole.  Some might overlap, while others stand apart.  But they're all connected at the root.

None of that means that Ragnarok has already occurred, though.  There's no reason to believe that Odin died and came back.  There's no reason to believe Vadderung is Thor. Are either possible?  Sure.  But I don't think there's been evidence for either.  Just because the Sidhe change hosts doesn't mean everyone does, or can, or will.
Sure there is, there's plenty of reason... but how deep down the rabbit hole can you really go though? There's no reason to appose the idea either, so unless I can get to the root of why you do we'll just dance all night lol.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: exartiem on May 16, 2018, 09:50:21 PM
Like I said, "ung" means "ing".  The full translation would be "Thor Fathering".  He that fathered Thor.

Unless, of course, you want to interpret it differently, and say Thor obtained his father's mantle, and he's now "Fathering" it up.   ::)

I looked it up.  Ung means young in Norwegian, not ing.  So it might translate as "Thor, Young-Father."  Young Father as opposed to All-father.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 17, 2018, 04:33:20 AM
I looked it up.  Ung means young in Norwegian, not ing.  So it might translate as "Thor, Young-Father."  Young Father as opposed to All-father.

Jim has called Vadderung "The all father".  So I'm not thinking he's Thor, unless he has his own son's Mantle.

I like 2 theories about Thor. 

1. Mr. Hendricks is Thor (also explains his relationship with Gard)
2. (My theory from a long time ago I think?) Michael or his wife are of relation to Thor.  Main reason is because Michael was using a Thor hammer as a bottle opener...  Don't know if it has any meaning or not, or some foreshadowing that Thor will be making an appearance later.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 17, 2018, 07:40:48 AM
That was more about the swords and how they can be remade... Bout positive Mjolnir comes from/evolved into the sword of hope.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 18, 2018, 01:06:32 AM
I looked it up.  Ung means young in Norwegian, not ing.  So it might translate as "Thor, Young-Father."  Young Father as opposed to All-father.
Donar and Vadder aren't Norwegian, they're German.  The German meaning for -ung is "ing".
Jim has called Vadderung "The all father".  So I'm not thinking he's Thor, unless he has his own son's Mantle.

I like 2 theories about Thor. 

1. Mr. Hendricks is Thor (also explains his relationship with Gard)
2. (My theory from a long time ago I think?) Michael or his wife are of relation to Thor.  Main reason is because Michael was using a Thor hammer as a bottle opener...  Don't know if it has any meaning or not, or some foreshadowing that Thor will be making an appearance later.
Don't forget Charity used a hammer on the Arctic Tor door.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 18, 2018, 11:53:48 AM
Don't forget Charity used a hammer on the Arctic Tor door.
I guess but her Hammer-awesome is forge related.  Thor would be crossing tropes  :P

Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 04:12:17 AM
I guess but her Hammer-awesome is forge related.  Thor would be crossing tropes  :P
Yeah, we'd never see Thor working in a forge to, like, I don't know, make a weapon or something.   :-X
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 19, 2018, 05:29:24 AM
Yeah, we'd never see Thor working in a forge to, like, I don't know, make a weapon or something.   :-X

There is the possibility that Thor no longer has his Mantle...  Perhaps the foreshadowing being shown here is that Charity will have it one day, and kicking ass along side her Sword wielding husband.  I guess Michael could get it but it seems more like Charity if Jim used foreshadowing. 
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 06:35:41 AM
There is the possibility that Thor no longer has his Mantle...  Perhaps the foreshadowing being shown here is that Charity will have it one day, and kicking ass along side her Sword wielding husband.  I guess Michael could get it but it seems more like Charity if Jim used foreshadowing.
Shan't we forget that Harry wielded a hammer in Proven Guilty as well.
Quote
The hammer struck the bolt that held the other ring of Rawlins’s cuffs. Sparks flew. The bolt, as rusted and ruined as the rest of the building, snapped.
That might as well translate as, "And lo, the mighty Tharry did wield the great Moldinjar in his fist, striking true with his righteous strength, to shatter the cursed metal binding his companion in twain, the air itself splitting as surely as the chains of captivity, as the sharp crack of thunder rolled through the sky, the reverberating echo of the lightning summoned by the great hero sounding like a clarion call to the halls of Valhalla, signaling the Valkyries to take flight, for the battle was joined, and the fallen would be theirs to claim.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Fcrate on May 19, 2018, 09:24:14 AM
Ahahahahahaahaha.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 19, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
There is the possibility that Thor no longer has his Mantle...  Perhaps the foreshadowing being shown here is that Charity will have it one day, and kicking ass along side her Sword wielding husband.  I guess Michael could get it but it seems more like Charity if Jim used foreshadowing.
Dude, you know who Mike the Mechanic could be don't you? Whom the Mechanic(whom I wanna say was Mike) was in Adventures of Babysitting...? I've long thought that his fate, especially since we have the... idk their names, the things Etri was, as the dwarvish smiths.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 19, 2018, 06:17:13 PM
Shan't we forget that Harry wielded a hammer in Proven Guilty as well.

But his cup is full if you trust Jim's words.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
But his cup is full if you trust Jim's words.
Unless he's already Thor, and it's part of his full cup.   :o
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 19, 2018, 06:42:01 PM
Unless he's already Thor, and it's part of his full cup.   :o
He's more the Loki to Marcones Thor... although mayhaps he's Baldor instead :o unless that's Thomas?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 19, 2018, 06:48:20 PM
Unless he's already Thor, and it's part of his full cup.   :o

Hasn't shown anything that makes me think of Thor...  Perhaps Thor's powers become activated when wielding his Hammer?  If so this could mean Malcolm was Odin?  Hmmm  RAIDEM!
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
Hasn't shown anything that makes me think of Thor...  Perhaps Thor's powers become activated when wielding his Hammer?  If so this could mean Malcolm was Odin?  Hmmm  RAIDEM!
He used a hammer, and there were sparks.

He's more the Loki to Marcones Thor... although mayhaps he's Baldor instead :o unless that's Thomas?
Given that one interpretation of Baldr's etymology is "the white, the good", Thomas seems apt.  :P
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 19, 2018, 08:05:15 PM
He used a hammer, and there were sparks.
Given that one interpretation of Baldr's etymology is "the white, the good", Thomas seems apt.  :P

lol... You're just trolling us aren't you?

Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 08:17:25 PM
lol... You're just trolling us aren't you?
Who, me?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRNEp3eg2yJoa33IQfrDLs9JcVoFbKXhc_V3CVj4qu4AnfGR0NA)

I lean more towards the main cast having Arthurian parallels rather than being reincarnations or pre-destined mantle-bearers.

But Butters making a joke about a lightsaber was foreshadowing, so I'm not ruling anything out these days.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 20, 2018, 02:34:05 AM
Quote
Thus Baldr had to remain in the underworld, not to emerge until after Ragnarök, when he and his brother Höðr would be reconciled and rule the new earth together with Thor's sons.
Mmm...
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 20, 2018, 04:25:12 AM
Who, me?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRNEp3eg2yJoa33IQfrDLs9JcVoFbKXhc_V3CVj4qu4AnfGR0NA)

I lean more towards the main cast having Arthurian parallels rather than being reincarnations or pre-destined mantle-bearers.

But Butters making a joke about a lightsaber was foreshadowing, so I'm not ruling anything out these days.

I wasn't suggesting they were pre-destined.  The *hints* would just be Jim playing around with us like Butters and the light saber.  It wasn't predestined in story (I don't think), just a little thing Jim dropped in there.

I do agree with the Arthurian parallels idea though...  To me it feels like Harry Dresden is walking a similar path to Merlin.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on May 20, 2018, 10:44:27 PM
Quote
feels like Harry Dresden is walking a similar path to Merlin
Path being the operative word here.(one I think rai can appreciate)But it's folly to limit it to simply Arthurian mythos or Merlin in said mythos. That's part and parcel why the Hades parallel scene was put in, to show a wider and wider scope of connections. GK and his appearance vs his domain being across the surface of the moon and other associations as a likely Horus put's Egyptian mythos firmly on the map too... how many is this now... Arthur, Christian, Egyptian, Greek/roman(I'd categorically have them the same).... and Norse? ^.- Mmm that's five directly connected mythos, until we see a sixth perhaps the five timelines entwined works quite well?
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: raidem on May 20, 2018, 11:17:25 PM
In storm front, Harry ended up using lightning from the storm. So there is something rather Odin, Thor like with Harry, but I don't think he is Thor. I still like the idea that Harry descends from some multiversal amber like family particularly on his father's side.  I like that Harry's ancestry goes back to some corwin character that created a multiverse in line with amber.  This same royal family could take up other mantles, so they could appear as other gods, cultural, mythological figures.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: khadgar4606 on May 21, 2018, 10:54:38 AM
well this whole thor and odin talk is good but thanks to my last vacation. we kinda not know all things as there is people thinking zeus was fertility god instead of the storm god thus with idocity of the current world all i can say may be Ragnarok was a poker turnament that harry gonna attend as bodyguard of some out of blue person. as what faction i like to see in the remaining books my main pic goes to either vodoo pantheon( not that small loa of knowledge but more lake baron samedi himself) or poynesian pantheon. As story hook to intruduce them how about going out of chicago for a full book where harry works with new temporary cast of people
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 21, 2018, 03:12:03 PM
Yeah, we'd never see Thor working in a forge to, like, I don't know, make a weapon or something.   :-X
Exactly.  Crafting things, especially magic things, was not something the Aesir were ever good at.  They always got their stuff from Dwarves and Svartalves, or stole it from a giant.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Kindler on May 21, 2018, 04:50:35 PM
or stole it from a giant.
Can you blame them? Giants had the best stuff.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 21, 2018, 05:02:20 PM
Exactly.  Crafting things, especially magic things, was not something the Aesir were ever good at.  They always got their stuff from Dwarves and Svartalves, or stole it from a giant.

100% Anti Aesir propaganda...
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 21, 2018, 05:08:00 PM
100% Anti Aesir propaganda...
Nah.  Calling Thor an overly flatulent meathead that couldnt craft his way out of a paper bag would be anti-Aesir propaganda :p
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: groinkick on May 21, 2018, 06:04:18 PM
Nah.  Calling Thor an overly flatulent meathead that couldnt craft his way out of a paper bag would be anti-Aesir propaganda :p

(http://memecrunch.com/meme/3R7WX/thor-nooooo/image.png)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Fcrate on May 21, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
Nah.  Calling Thor an overly flatulent meathead that couldnt craft his way out of a paper bag would be anti-Aesir propaganda :p
Heh. Flatulent meathead.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 21, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
Heh. Flatulent meathead.
I may have read the Magnus Chase books recently, which is coloring my idea of Thor's character slightly.  Also read Neil Gaiman's Norse Mythology though, and it seems to agree with the "meathead" image
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 21, 2018, 11:06:25 PM
Exactly.  Crafting things, especially magic things, was not something the Aesir were ever good at.  They always got their stuff from Dwarves and Svartalves, or stole it from a giant.
(https://i1.wp.com/78.media.tumblr.com/c4b8c2b4bc8427c6238862f3e67d7af0/tumblr_p06qeotNUs1sc0ffqo1_540.gif?w=605&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on May 22, 2018, 11:39:44 AM
(https://i1.wp.com/78.media.tumblr.com/c4b8c2b4bc8427c6238862f3e67d7af0/tumblr_p06qeotNUs1sc0ffqo1_540.gif?w=605&ssl=1)
Oh, dont get me wrong, he can yank on a giant lever like nobodies business.  But if you recall, there was a Dwarf nearby handling all the hard parts. Also, that's not Thor anymore, technically; Once he lost the Hammer he became "Odinson".  Also, he's not much like the mythic Thor aside from being a little slow on the uptake and getting conned by Loki a lot. 
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Quantus on June 01, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
Found something Id find interesting to make an appearance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machai

Though I could buy that these are actual Lycanthropes (ie the berserker spirit type that had a biker gang)
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: Avernite on June 03, 2018, 12:09:41 PM
Harry is definitely the crafting type. He's not lame enough to be Hephaestos (though he was for a short bit at the end of Changes), but he does spend an enormous amount making all his gear.

If we're going for a Greek mythical connection he frankly fits Athena quite well, who was patron of crafters in general (including the famous weaving contest with Arachne). And also, when need be, able to kick ass and inspire her heroic allies. Though Harry does have kids...

Of course, Lash served a role quite close to the role Athena had for Greek heroes as advisor. Which convinces me even in the obvious mythologies Harry is a mashup character, not a direct analogue for anyone.
Title: Re: Supernatural Nations you'd like to see.
Post by: jonas on June 03, 2018, 12:11:36 PM
Oh yes, the mash ups fit into archetypes though.