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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 18, 2018, 01:51:02 AM
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Adam & Eve made a decision that affected all of humankind. Could a Starborn represent something similar?
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That seems a bit far to speculate, without any clues about whether the Genesis story is literal or 'correct history' in the DV. That might be an issue Jim would want to avoid poking into too deeply, lest he have to reconcile the Almighty and Archangels being real forces in the DV with 65 million year old T-rexes also existing. It just seems like a can of worms that's likely to ruffle some fans no matter how it's broached, so the incentive to avoid it is strong.
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That seems a bit far to speculate, without any clues about whether the Genesis story is literal or 'correct history' in the DV. That might be an issue Jim would want to avoid poking into too deeply, lest he have to reconcile the Almighty and Archangels being real forces in the DV with 65 million year old T-rexes also existing. It just seems like a can of worms that's likely to ruffle some fans no matter how it's broached, so the incentive to avoid it is strong.
What do dinosaurs have to do with anything? I don't see how there is any conflict between the two? There isn't a single place in the Bible that states how old the Earth is, and the vast majority of believers think it's billions of years old.
Also Adam and Eve would have nothing to do with ancient history with regards to billions of years ago. He has Archangels, TWG, souls... Adam and Eve are part of that belief system, and their Choice led to the fall of humans. The Angel's theme throughout the series has been about Choice, and Harry is the central person of the stories which means his Choices are probably what will decide the fate of things. He's also a Starborn which seems to be of importance.
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Until given evidence otherwise, I like the idea that the people otherwise known as "Adam & Eve" where the last Cycle's equivalent of "Líf and Lífþrasir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir)" who were the two people prophesied to survive Ragnarok. Thus they can maintain the same general prominence without having to reconcile them as literal genetic Sources of all Humanity.
PS: There's this WOJ along similar lines:
@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn't say "Let there be light." :) It's fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters
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Also Adam and Eve would have nothing to do with ancient history with regards to billions of years ago. He has Archangels, TWG, souls... Adam and Eve are part of that belief system, and their Choice led to the fall of humans. The Angel's theme throughout the series has been about Choice, and Harry is the central person of the stories which means his Choices are probably what will decide the fate of things. He's also a Starborn which seems to be of importance.
As far as we know, his magic can affect Outsiders, for an extent, so a Starborn would be integral to the war.
However, TWG and Archangels in DV seem to have two different roles. According to Dresden(a bit), Michael, Uriel and their bunch, He is capital G God. His Archangels can level galaxies. (Even though they can be scared to death if they're pet-named)
According to Basserina, and some other nasties/not so goodies, he is but one of many small g gods. He just gained the most influence, following, and thus power 2000 years ago, and all but drove the other gods to dust. Yet they still exist, and trying to regain some following.
There is also the fact that Hades doesn't have many believers anymore, and thus not many souls go to his dominion after they die, but those who do, he has the power to judge, and keep, for eternity. TWG has no power over that. Which makes me lean towards the "The most powerful of small-g's" theory. The attributed super powers are just PR.
Edit:
I'm getting the hang of the initialisms thing. ;D
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However, TWG and Archangels in DV seem to have two different roles. According to Dresden(a bit), Michael, Uriel and their bunch, He is capital G God. His Archangels can level galaxies. (Even though they can be scared to death if they're pet-named)
According to Basserina, and some other nasties/not so goodies, he is but one of many small g gods. He just gained the most influence, following, and thus power 2000 years ago, and all but drove the other gods to dust. Yet they still exist, and trying to regain some following.
There is also the fact that Hades doesn't have many believers anymore, and thus not many souls go to his dominion after they die, but those who do, he has the power to judge, and keep, for eternity. TWG has no power over that. Which makes me lean towards the "The most powerful of small-g's" theory. The attributed super powers are just PR.
As in there being a big-G creator mantle with the angels as its "nation", and the current WG stepped into it relatively recently? I used to wonder about that interpretation, but I'm less inclined to read it that way anymore.
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As in there being a big-G creator mantle with the angels as its "nation", and the current WG stepped into it relatively recently? I used to wonder about that interpretation, but I'm less inclined to read it that way anymore.
No, no mantle, and no new WG. An all powerful god that created everything, and everything goes according to his design. If that is the case, why would He ever be deposed/step down? That is the first interpretation mentioned in the series, and it's what Michael Carpenter and his bunch believe.
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If we assume for a moment that TWG is THE Creator Deity and all that, as opposed to one of many human-created and/or empowered lesser gods, then I dont think it is out of Character for them to step down, especially given the whole Jesus development. Their actual Power wouldnt factor in so much as their characterization, essentially the same as how Mother Summer has Retired at least once, but Mother Winter has not.
Now, on the topic of whether TWG and the archangels et al are actually as pre-eminant among the existing Powers as their Believers and popular image would lead us to believe? Yes, I very much think they are, given some things we've been told directly by Jim:
1)Archangels are "Senior VPs of Creation" so Heaven is very much In Charge now
2)Angels Predate Time itself, so odds are very strong that they have always held their current supremacy rather than ascending to it recently.
Note that #2 does not preclude a War with the Outsiders that also predates Time Itself, since the Outsiders are so specifically outside the Universe (and arguably outside the Multiverse too).
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Note that #2 does not preclude a War with the Outsiders that also predates Time Itself, since the Outsiders are so specifically outside the Universe (and arguably outside the Multiverse too).
I like it, except: Wouldn't THE creator create the Outsiders as well?
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I like it, except: Wouldn't THE creator create the Outsiders as well?
Only if The Creator is The Creator of ALL Creation, and not just this particular timeline.
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Only if The Creator is The Creator of ALL Creation, and not just this particular timeline.
No, at least not by my current theory/definition of what the Outside and Outsiders are. Said Creator would be the Creator of ALL Creation, as in "of the entire Multiverse", but the Outsiders from the Void between timelines that existed before the Creator got to a'Creatin'.
Basically I think that pre-Time there was a floating Void of Chaos (per the greek cosmology) and there existed beings in that floating Void. One of them figured out how to Create and did it a lot, to the point where his Creations started Creating. At which point all the others said "GROSS, Im stepping in it!" and started trying to destroy the infestation before it got out of hand. The Creator gets to make there Rules Inside for the same reason and by the same mechanic as Thresholds (or rather thresholds are a micro-scale thaumaturgic echo of the Gates and/or the border of Reality).
Points of Support:
1)
I take this to mean that Outsiders are not subject to the splintering of the Multiverse at all, and are atacking all of Creation from the Outside of it, from the Void that pre-dated Creation (per several rl cosmologies including some interpretations of Genesis).
2015 San Francisco signing (Coopersfield Books)
I’m pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy.
2)
From Cold Days:
And this thing in my head, the thing I’d named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn’t bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.
This thing was power from the Outside,
I think this is a reference to the fact that Outsiders are higher-dimensional beings as compared to Mab who is still subject to Time and the splintering multiverse.
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*snipping*
I'll restate my support of your interpretation; I think that your pitch that Outsiders and the Archangels/TWG are the same entity in every corner of the multiverse makes sense.
It also makes sense to me that the ultimate Enemy of TWG wouldn't be Satan and Hell, it would be something that TWG didn't create. It solves some classic theological debates for the Dresdenverse rather nicely when taken from that perspective; TWG is omniscient and the Creator of everything in this multiverse, and most of TWG's questionable decisions and uncertain abilities can be traced to decisions made to protect against the Things from Outside. (Not looking to start one of those debates, just saying that if remove Satan as the primary Adversary, and replace that role with Outsiders, a lot of philosophical and theological questions can be answered).
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Only if The Creator is The Creator of ALL Creation, and not just this particular timeline.
Depends if Jim prefers the original belief system or a modified version. He does have a deep religious background, and his words about not liking Supernatural portraying angels as bad guys makes me think he prefers the original. He may be vague and leave it open to interpretation though.
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you know this theory is so out of blue that i am intrested on whats next.
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you know this theory is so out of blue that i am intrested on whats next.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9KVmZwJl7fnigeAg/giphy.gif)