ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on April 17, 2018, 05:03:38 PM
-
If I remember correctly, MM takes place in a Universe that split at a decision in GP. I wonder if we'll ever see glimpses of the universes where Harry chose the Coin or DarkHallow over taking up the Winter Knight mantle.
But on a side note, I think that Jim's posturing over how he didn't know which route Harry would take in Changes is just that, posturing. He already had the series outline and I think it would have been much more difficult to stay within that original story line if he had made any other choice... but it's a nice line to hear in his interviews...
-
Yep, yep and yep.
-
We know that Jim had each book planned out via a one to two sentence description from the beginning. The specifics of Harry's actions/changes were probably not planned until much closer to the book that contained them. I think that while it is likely Jim knew that in Changes Harry would have to make a choice to get more power to save someone he loved from the beginning, he probably did not know which path he would choose until much closer to the book. At some point (probably several books before Changes) it became very evident that Harry would choose Mab (the lesser of the evils). Therefore, Jim's posturing is true depending on what point in time he was talking about not knowing which path Harry would take.
-
But on a side note, I think that Jim's posturing over how he didn't know which route Harry would take in Changes is just that, posturing. He already had the series outline and I think it would have been much more difficult to stay within that original story line if he had made any other choice... but it's a nice line to hear in his interviews...
I think he only meant that the broad outlines like what the case is and which antagonist he's putting Harry up against are planned out. So for example, Skin Game would still have worked if he was directly beholden to Nicodemus but trying to ensure a mission fail, instead of on loan from Mab and trying to ensure a mission fail. Which is an interesting point, because if Cold Days could still have shaken out similarly with Denarian Dresden, it's another circumstantial bit of evidence for the Denarians being anti-Outsider.
Going with the Darkhallow would have been a harder choice to write, because it's virtually impossible to keep the audience rooting for a character who's life-drained thousands to tens of thousands of people to fuel his own power. There's no reason Harry couldn't have gone on to use that power against N-fected Maeve and then Nicodemus, but a Darkhallow probably would have left him overpowered for those to even be interesting adversaries.
-
Skin Game with Harry as a Denarian would be pretty interesting. It'd be Harry trying to outfox Mab's Winter Knight--maybe even Thomas.
-
Skin Game with Harry as a Denarian would be pretty interesting. It'd be Harry trying to outfox Mab's Winter Knight--maybe even Thomas.
Or harry working as the "inside man" (for a given definition of the term) trying to aid Mab's Winter Knight in taking Nick down.
-
Or harry working as the "inside man" (for a given definition of the term) trying to aid Mab's Winter Knight in taking Nick down.
Battling Lasciel for control as she tries to get word to Nick...
I'd read it.
-
Battling Lasciel for control as she tries to get word to Nick...
I'd read it.
Hard to say how that might have gone down. Given Lasciel's standing as a rebel among the rebel angels, she might have been perfectly happy to see her host nab the treasures out from under Nic's nose. Not for any altruistic reasons or to protect the world from him abusing them, but so she'd be the one calling the shots over how they got used instead of Anduriel and Nic.
-
Battling Lasciel for control as she tries to get word to Nick...
I'd read it.
Nah, we've already read about 3 books where the main theme is battling Lasciel for control.
Going with the Darkhallow would have been a harder choice to write, because it's virtually impossible to keep the audience rooting for a character who's life-drained thousands to tens of thousands of people to fuel his own power. There's no reason Harry couldn't have gone on to use that power against N-fected Maeve and then Nicodemus, but a Darkhallow probably would have left him overpowered for those to even be interesting adversaries.
I disagree, you do what you have to do, and Harry always does. I'd still root for him; there's something captivating about someone who's dedicated enough to kill thousands to protect even more. Peace loving ideas aside, historically speaking, to get anything done you have to spill blood, and much of it (even innocent's blood)
I agree with the overpowered bit though.
-
I'd still root for him; there's something captivating about someone who's dedicated enough to kill thousands to protect even more. Peace loving ideas aside, historically speaking, to get anything done you have to spill blood, and much of it (even innocent's blood)
If Harry had gone with the Darkhallow, it wouldn't have been about sacrificing thousands to wipe out the Reds and save hundreds of thousands more from becoming their victims. Several Halloweens have gone by from Dead Beat to Changes to make that kind of a calculated choice if he was going to. Reaching there for power in Changes would have been killing thousands because his daughter matters more to him than all the other victims he would have had to kill to save that one life.
-
If Harry had gone with the Darkhallow, it wouldn't have been about sacrificing thousands to wipe out the Reds and save hundreds of thousands more from becoming their victims. Several Halloweens have gone by from Dead Beat to Changes to make that kind of a calculated choice if he was going to. Reaching there for power in Changes would have been killing thousands because his daughter matters more to him than all the other victims he would have had to kill to save that one life.
I think that there's a huge difference between "sitting back, roasting marshmallows and watching the world burn"; and feeding thousands to the fire yourself to kickstart the conflagration.
Even for His daughter, and based on what we've known of Harry, I can't see him making a decision to go that route.
-
I think that there's a huge difference between "sitting back, roasting marshmallows and watching the world burn"; and feeding thousands to the fire yourself to kickstart the conflagration.
Even for His daughter, and based on what we've known of Harry, I can't see him making a decision to go that route.
I can. Lucky for him and us, he had other options. I believe that the evil scale is: Winter Knight<DarkHallow<Coin. And Harry's preference: Winter Knight>Coin>DarkHallow.
If Harry had gone with the Darkhallow, it wouldn't have been about sacrificing thousands to wipe out the Reds and save hundreds of thousands more from becoming their victims. Several Halloweens have gone by from Dead Beat to Changes to make that kind of a calculated choice if he was going to. Reaching there for power in Changes would have been killing thousands because his daughter matters more to him than all the other victims he would have had to kill to save that one life.
I'm 99.99% sure that lacking other options, he would've killed thousands of innocents to save his daughter. After all, he did wipe out an entire species of innocents (relatively speaking) and Susan as an added bonus.
-
After all, he did wipe out an entire species of innocents (relatively speaking) and Susan as an added bonus.
Come on, that's not the same as a DarkHallow. There is a difference in killing people for power, and casualties if war. His targets were the evil Red Court vampires, the innocents that died as a result weren't targets, but other victims of the Red's who'd been infected without permission.
-
Actually at some point every single Ramp made the choice to kill to become what they were, so even the most diet conscious Ramp isn't 'innocent'. The very turn of phrase for them is laughable.(thats almost verbatim what Woj said on the matter)
-
Actually at some point every single Ramp made the choice to kill to become what they were, so even the most diet conscious Ramp isn't 'innocent'. The very turn of phrase for them is laughable.(thats almost verbatim what Woj said on the matter)
I think the innocence being talked about were the people infected, but not turned who died. Only the younger once's survived I believe.
-
Come on, that's not the same as a DarkHallow. There is a difference in killing people for power, and casualties if war. His targets were the evil Red Court vampires, the innocents that died as a result weren't targets, but other victims of the Red's who'd been infected without permission.
I agree with your first point.
I think the innocence being talked about were the people infected, but not turned who died. Only the younger once's survived I believe.
No, he's right, I meant the vampires. And from their perspective, they're innocent. They have to feed in order to survive, they see humans as herd animals, so they have no qualms about slaughtering them to feed themselves.
Yes, they still have to be killed on basic principle, it's an "us and them" kind of situation. Wiping out an entire species was a concious choice for Harry, fueled by need and much anger. He was quite unhinged in Changes, and DarkHallow was a step away. That's still a moot point though, I can't see how he could manage DarkHallow in such little time, he didn't prepare the way as the Kemmlerites did in Dead Beat, no collective fear, necromantic energy to protect him, and with a broken back. At that point the only viable options were the Coin or Mab.
-
I think the innocence being talked about were the people infected, but not turned who died. Only the younger once's survived I believe.
Think then on the years they actually lived vs us normals, they owed Father Cronos a debt just as the denarians do, he collects. Dresden didn't 'take' anything from them except a curse they were fighting they're whole existence, acceptance of the curse and it's fringe benefits is one step closer to acceptance of the benefits of Rampirism. Notice the exact attitude of the one person whose had a problem with the fate of the fellowship? If any of them cared it would have been in the same vein of selfishness... considering they devoted their existence to fighting the Ramps I don't believe for one second any one of them was not ready and willing to die for their cause.
-
I can. Lucky for him and us, he had other options. I believe that the evil scale is: Winter Knight<DarkHallow<Coin. And Harry's preference: Winter Knight>Coin>DarkHallow.
The Darkhallow is probably more evil than the coin. The way the Fallen work is the first taste of power is free, to get you dependent on them.
You can always choose to drop the coin once you've got what you need from the Fallen, before you have to do anything monstrous to pay them back for what they've given you. The issue for a wizard is that means losing your power and going into retirement, but at least it's you paying the price rather than a bunch of dead innocents you had to drain.
-
but at least it's you paying the price rather than a bunch of dead innocents you had to drain.
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.
-
No, he's right, I meant the vampires. And from their perspective, they're innocent. They have to feed in order to survive, they see humans as herd animals, so they have no qualms about slaughtering them to feed themselves.
Yes, they still have to be killed on basic principle, it's an "us and them" kind of situation. Wiping out an entire species was a concious choice for Harry, fueled by need and much anger. He was quite unhinged in Changes, and DarkHallow was a step away. That's still a moot point though, I can't see how he could manage DarkHallow in such little time, he didn't prepare the way as the Kemmlerites did in Dead Beat, no collective fear, necromantic energy to protect him, and with a broken back. At that point the only viable options were the Coin or Mab.
In the Dresdenverse there is right, and wrong. Good, and evil. Angels who violate laws fall. White Court/Red Court vamps must kill to transform, and become 1 with their demon.
The vampires thinking they are innocent doesn't matter. In that universe they are evil. The only exception are those very few who are like Thomas who fight their evil demon. Very few have shown any care about killing though.
-
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.
you could debate this fact as we have WoJ that Power comes from Purpose. There is no saying that once the dark hallow is complete that the new demi-god or whatever would not be bound in some new way.
-
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.
Nothing influencing your choices but the normal side-effects of performing a massive sacrificial necromantic ritual.
-
Terribly wrong, you are what you eat, doing a Hallow and remaining entirely yourself is nigh impossible i'd bet. Your eating a bunch of spirits.
-
Terribly wrong, you are what you eat, doing a Hallow and remaining entirely yourself is nigh impossible i'd bet. Your eating a bunch of spirits.
Heh. Heh. Regretting all the Dirt eating dares from my childhood now. It explains a lot though.
In the Dresdenverse there is right, and wrong. Good, and evil. Angels who violate laws fall. White Court/Red Court vamps must kill to transform, and become 1 with their demon.
The vampires thinking they are innocent doesn't matter. In that universe they are evil. The only exception are those very few who are like Thomas who fight their evil demon. Very few have shown any care about killing though.
True. I'm not contesting the fact that they should be exterminated.
Nothing influencing your choices but the normal side-effects of performing a massive sacrificial necromantic ritual.
The resolve though. You have to believe in what you magically do, to pull it off, you have to absolutely believe that killing a few people to achieve your goals (whatever they may be) is right. It's unlikely that you would change.
-
The resolve though. You have to believe in what you magically do, to pull it off, you have to absolutely believe that killing a few people to achieve your goals (whatever they may be) is right. It's unlikely that you would change.
If we are talking about Harry, It would change him, because so far in the books he has shown that every innocent life is worth saving (to a Fault). For him to change his resolve to think that it would be okay to sacrifice that many innocents would be a huge deviation from who he was.
I think in changes he says that the reason that he chose Mab and the WK mantle was because the only one who paid the price would be him.
-
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.
There's a WOJ about why wouldn't Harry do the Darkhallow out in some sort of deserted location to gain power without hurting any people. The human lives the vortex would take are a necessary 'fuel for the fire', not just a side product of the heirs of Kemmler indifferently choosing to do it in a city.
-
There's a WOJ about why wouldn't Harry do the Darkhallow out in some sort of deserted location to gain power without hurting any people. The human lives the vortex would take are a necessary 'fuel for the fire', not just a side product of the heirs of Kemmler indifferently choosing to do it in a city.
Yup, though I maintain that Chitzen Itza could work, with the Ambient Life of a dense Jungle replacing the need to living humans, while the same accumulation of angry warrior spirits is already present.
-
Yup, though I maintain that Chitzen Itza could work, with the Ambient Life of a dense Jungle replacing the need to living humans, while the same accumulation of angry warrior spirits is already present.
But.. what if it's actually the mortal choice that they're feeding on in the spell, that most delicate part of the soul only humans possess?
-
But.. what if it's actually the mortal choice that they're feeding on in the spell, that most delicate part of the soul only humans possess?
It's possible, we dont really know all the details on it. I dont think so, though, on the logic that I think it would work on the same principle as using Animals vs Humans for Zombies: Animals hold less Energy per unit creature, so they would something of a Quantity over Quality solution for a Darkhallow. Less Human Life an an urban center, but more total non-human (Plant & Animal) capacity