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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on March 12, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
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I'm re-listening to SG and got to thinking.
Coming from the perspective that Nick want's to "save the world", and he thinks that there is soon going to be a changing of the guard at the Outer Gates, I'm wondering if he didn't want the cup, and the other artifacts to aid him in taking over that charge.
Think of it this way...
According to legend, the cup grants immortality to anyone who drank from it. If all of his troops at the gates drank from it, they'd never die. That would be an awesome advantage over the outsiders who seem to just keep coming and coming.
Also, had he gotten his hands on the Spear of Longinus (the "knife" Harry got), it supposedly grants it's bearer victory all the time.
I don't know what the other artifacts do, but with just those two, someone could defend the Outer Gates forever and never lose.
This is assuming that Nick would be wanting to defend the gates, and not lead the hoard of Outsiders in to our reality, using the same artifacts for them instead of us.
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I don't think he wants to guard the Gates. The role the Denarians serve is to be on Earth bending free willed mortals to their wills. That is their specialty and the expression of their power. So, whatever Nic's goal is it is about Earth, not the Gates. I do believe he is intending the weapons to use against the Outsiders, unless even Anduriel or Nic himself is infected and he is being used by Nemesis himself.
I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife. He must have believed Harry had the remaining objects of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her. It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were. He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve.
The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death. He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it.
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Raidem,
The entire Stated point of Nick wanting into Hades vault was to get the Grail. That's what he told the team, and that is what Harry gave him. Harry actually grabbed the cup and tossed it to him while still in Hades vault.
Now, everyone knows that the cup (Grail) wasn't Nick's only objective, but that's what he stated, and that's what he got.
I'm just wondering how, getting that item (and the others if he could) would play into his "Saving the world".
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I'm just wondering how, getting that item (and the others if he could) would play into his "Saving the world".
From whom do we think he believes he is saving the world? The Outsiders and the Old Ones? Or the White God and Heaven? He is obviously opposed to the latter, but his opinion on the former is less clear.
Based on his reaction to Dresden's revelation that Hellfire was used at Arctis Tor, I think it's safe to assume that he is neither Nemfected nor sympathetic to the Outsiders. However, none of his actions seem to be designed to oppose Nemesis. Stealing the Shroud to cause a pandemic? Forcing the Archive to accept a Coin? Stealing artifacts pertinent to the Crucifixion from Hades? The power of the artifacts could be wielded against the Outsiders, but wanton slaughter by plague doesn't hurt them. Giving a coin to the Archive would actually make Ivy's knowledge of the Old Ones less secure, not more.
I want to say that he's planning on using the Outsiders in an attack on Creation, but I'm inferring he has a level of distaste for them, based on the Small Favor reaction mentioned earlier, that would prevent him from associating with them. Perhaps instead of using them directly, he's counting on them doing what they would anyway, and planning his hit around it.
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I think it's safe to say that Nic is opposed to the Outsiders—he's evil, but he's still on the Reality Itself Home Team.
However, I do not think that Nic could take over The Gates... at least, not yet.
There simply aren't enough Nickelheads; Winter needs hundreds of thousands of Sidhe (plus various others) to protect reality. Nic would need an army.
Now, if Nic were to command the Armies of Hell? That's a different story.
See, Mother Summer said "Power has purpose," and if that's true, then it's also true that (some) Purpose has Power, and Nic has been after all the power he can get for millennia. I'd find it possible, even probable, that Nic intends to usurp Lucifer's control by manipulating events with the Holy Grail. How he accomplishes that, I dunno—maybe that's why he wanted the Lance of Longinus, to kill Satan—and then end Mab (and Winter's) thousand-year reign over the Gates by rallying Hell around him.
I'd imagine that Commander of the Gates (or Defender, or whatever you want to call it) would carry with it a hefty powerup. Nic would then get his chance to play with his toys—us, and this planet—while relatively secure in his position, as it'd be insane to try to dislodge him permanently; the Outsiders would win.
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There is an old Chinese saying, "Be careful for what you wish for. YOU MAY GET IT!" I think that is what is going to
happen to Nick.. Notice that neither Michael nor more importantly Uriel were all that upset that Nick ended up with the Grail...
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I think that Christ's resurrection was the passing of the mantle of the White God from the Old Testament God to the current White God.
Perhaps Nick wants to force the passing of the mantle to himself. Talk about ambitious...
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I still like the old theory that he wanted to summon the Antichrist using the five relics. It fits with his previous use of turning a good item into something bad.
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Raisins,
If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was. Harry and we, at least me, should know this. Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed. And, It likely was the knife.
“First,” I said, “Nicodemus is after something powerful. I don’t know what it is, but I do know that if I can get him to tell us what he’s after, it’s going to be a lie. He’d never let anyone know his true goal if he could help it.” “I concur,” Kringle said.
Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.
I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife. He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her. It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were. He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve. (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)
The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death. He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it. So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...
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I still like the old theory that he wanted to summon the Antichrist using the five relics. It fits with his previous use of turning a good item into something bad.
It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction. Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil. That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.
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It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction. Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil. That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.
???
Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis?
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Raisins,
If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was. Harry and we, at least me, should know this. Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed. And, It likely was the knife.
Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.
I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife. He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her. It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were. He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve. (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)
The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death. He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it. So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...
I agree with this, but it all backfired when he got what he said he wanted, the Grail.. I repeat that neither Michael nor Uriel were that upset about that fact, which is significant in my opinion..
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Raisins,
If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was. Harry and we, at least me, should know this. Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed. And, It likely was the knife.
Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.
I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife. He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her. It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were. He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve. (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)
The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death. He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it. So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...
Oh, no, I got it. I'm just postulating on what he might have wanted the items for. We know the Grail wasn't his primary goal, just his stated one.
But the other thing I'm thinking about is what powers the items bestow on the bearer and how he could or would use them.
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It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction. Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil. That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.
I guess he better stop quoting Yeat's the second coming and making it an integral part of the story then lol? (or making these 'peace' talks 7 years before the end of the Bat, with it's kickoff 3.5 years in)
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Hey. Let him go there with the Christ/AntiChrist and see if I buy any more of his books. There are other ways to get the books rather than buy them.
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Hey. Let him go there with the Christ/AntiChrist and see if I buy any more of his books. There are other ways to get the books rather than buy them.
Stop reading now ;o Harry is the Anti-Christ along with a few others whom are sharing the shadow form. Want one tiny, teeny, bitty point of proof beyond all the other stuff I've mentioned?(plus theorized at by others)
Slouching: a lazy, drooping posture or movement.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
DR 'slouches' now doesn't he lol? The limp is inherited from there.
If you really feel that strongly about it Rai, I warn you now, you will be highly disappointed... It's not like Jim was gonna mesh all the apocali together and not put the AC in the Christian portion... Not really sure why you have such a problem with that one particular aspect anyway, did Damian and the Omen offend you so?
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The Anti-Christ is not a good symbol to use.
I grew up in a Christian church. Around 19, after addiction to computer games and flunking out at UF due to it, I had some personal issues that I informed my family about. Overlayed on this time period, I had psychotic symptoms in which I believed I was the AntiChrist (w/ a horn growing out of a bump on my head) because I no longer believed in my faith. Making matters worse during this time, I took nyquil (1999) because I was having issues with sleep, and for many years after had problems with speech, emotion, cognition etc. I believe there were seizures underlying some of this. So back to the Antichrist, for me, it is a disgusting idea because I had a paranoid delusion based off of it. This is why it is so personal to me.
Side note: After many years later, I finally think I figured out why I attached horn to this peculiar thought. At the age of 15, in a swim meet I jumped and my goggles got flooded with water. In one flip turn, I ended up hitting the step of the wall with my head which is most likely where the bump on my forehead originated. So later on down the road in my psychotic symptoms I correlated the bump with a horn.
So, even now I have to take many medications to deal with sleep, psychosis, bipolar disorder, possible seizure activity, etc.
Now on the amusing side:
Jonas: Harry can't be the antichrist; I already am :).
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Coming from the perspective that Nick want's to "save the world", and he thinks that there is soon going to be a changing of the guard at the Outer Gates, I'm wondering if he didn't want the cup, and the other artifacts to aid him in taking over that charge.
I don't think he wants to just uphold the status quo of defending the gates. I think his long game is lasting destruction of the Outsiders, but he's planning on scorched-earth (probably literally) methods to get there.
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Raidem,
Thank GOD!! Now we know who it is ...
What are you doing Tuesday? LOL
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Any chance that Nic wanted the items not to summon the Anti Christ or the Devil, but to summon the other Fallen from hell?
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Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy. Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being. Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.
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Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy. Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being. Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.
That's an interesting possibility. Anduriel likely views its Coin as a prison, and could do much more if it wasn't bound to it. Maybe the Knife could be used in some kind of separation ritual, while the Grail was to keep Nicodemus alive after the separation; that feels like the kind of pact the two of them would make.
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That's an interesting possibility. Anduriel likely views its Coin as a prison, and could do much more if it wasn't bound to it. Maybe the Knife could be used in some kind of separation ritual, while the Grail was to keep Nicodemus alive after the separation; that feels like the kind of pact the two of them would make.
I dont think it would be possible given that the coins are apparently part of some Universal Free Will balancing act with the Swords. But if anything would allow them to up-end that whole scheme (for better or worse) I would be able to accept re-purposing the same Artifacts of Power that (theoretically) created the Christ in the first place.
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Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy. Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being. Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.
Actually i had this thought long ago, well at least the part about freeing Anduriel from the coin. I even speculated wondering if Mac or Nick Christian was Anduriel after some time cycle had already occurred. That said, I also wondered if Nick Christian was this Nicodemus too. Going further out on a limb, I wondered if Nick Christian=Nicodemus=Malcolm Dresden.
It's pretty convoluted but with time cycles, redemption, second chances via balancing cheats I had wondered if it could be possible.
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I dont think it would be possible given that the coins are apparently part of some Universal Free Will balancing act with the Swords. But if anything would allow them to up-end that whole scheme (for better or worse) I would be able to accept re-purposing the same Artifacts of Power that (theoretically) created the Christ in the first place.
My understanding of the Blackened Denarii is that it was Lucifer who bound thirty of his most troublesome employees to them to keep them out of contention for overthrowing the established order. These were those who had both ambition and enough power to make trouble for Lucy, especially working together. If anything could cancel out Lucy's binding, I'd imagine it would be something tied to the Anti-Lucifer. Not really sure the balance between thirty Coins and three Swords comes into play; just because something exists currently in balance doesn't mean that that balance can't be upturned—that was the crux of the plot in Summer Knight. It'd certainly be disastrous, but that's sort of the goal of Nic's plot.
And it'd also be cool to see what The White God does to counter such a move; I'd imagine Anduriel and Uriel wouldn't get along particularly well.
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My understanding of the Blackened Denarii is that it was Lucifer who bound thirty of his most troublesome employees to them to keep them out of contention for overthrowing the established order. These were those who had both ambition and enough power to make trouble for Lucy, especially working together. If anything could cancel out Lucy's binding, I'd imagine it would be something tied to the Anti-Lucifer. Not really sure the balance between thirty Coins and three Swords comes into play; just because something exists currently in balance doesn't mean that that balance can't be upturned—that was the crux of the plot in Summer Knight. It'd certainly be disastrous, but that's sort of the goal of Nic's plot.
And it'd also be cool to see what The White God does to counter such a move; I'd imagine Anduriel and Uriel wouldn't get along particularly well.
Those were the reasons Lucifer Chose those Thirty particular Fallen to trap in coins and insodoing release them on Earth (in a limited fashoin) but hte Coins themselves are part of a larger cosmic Balance that does not seem within Luficer's power (at least not alone). In other words, the Balance and/or the Capital 'S' Significant event that occurred surrounding the Crucifixion is what created/crystallized the Swords and the Coins themselves, even though each side was/is apparently free to assign them however they see fit.
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I wonder if the aim of the Knight's of the Blackend Denarius want the destruction of the Swords, in part, because if they actually destroy one, 10 of them get released.
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I would question if any of the Denarius want to be freed from the coins? For the most part it seems that the fallen in the coins have it much better then the fallen in hell. From our perspective anyway.
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I would question if any of the Denarius want to be freed from the coins? For the most part it seems that the fallen in the coins have it much better then the fallen in hell. From our perspective anyway.
Unless they are released from the coins here on earth.
If they are released back in to hell, I agree, but we don't know.
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Unless they are released from the coins here on earth.
If they are released back in to hell, I agree, but we don't know.
We have WOJ that releasing them in the sense of breaking open the coins and letting them out, they'd be able to use their full un-restricted power on earth, but that it would destroy all kinds of cosmic balances.
On the other hand, if Lucufer put them in the coins it might be possible for him to Replace them, which would put them back in Hell and entirely prevented from interacting with Earth the way the rest of the Fallen are. Which seems to mean they can Choose to Act, but doing so provokes a response from Heaven, as was the case when Luficer intervened in SmF.
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We have WOJ that releasing them in the sense of breaking open the coins and letting them out, they'd be able to use their full un-restricted power on earth, but that it would destroy all kinds of cosmic balances.
On the other hand, if Lucufer put them in the coins it might be possible for him to Replace them, which would put them back in Hell and entirely prevented from interacting with Earth the way the rest of the Fallen are. Which seems to mean they can Choose to Act, but doing so provokes a response from Heaven, as was the case when Luficer intervened in SmF.
Do you mean like swap them out with other fallen?
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Do you mean like swap them out with other fallen?
Basically yes, though that is entirely speculation on my part. Dont think either part can (easily) destroy their side of the Balance any more than I think either could actually "win" and entirely remove their opposite. But since we do know that is was Lucifer's Choice as to whom got the coins in the first place, just like it remains God's Choice who gets offered a Sword, it seems reasonable that Lucifer (or I supposed whomever is currently in Charge down there if not Lucy) retains the right to Change his side's distribution.
For example, maybe Lucifer is none too pleased that Lasciel's shadow so spectacularly Failed in tempting Harry, to the result of a Starborn wizard being granted Soulfire (yes it is more directly Luficer's own fault, but you try telling him that).
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While I like that idea, I don't think Lucifer has swapped any out. That's not to say he can't, but it seems like Michael and the others knew all 30, and they haven't changed.
Then again, all records the Church kept have been destroyed over the centuries, so I suppose it could have happened.
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While I like that idea, I don't think Lucifer has swapped any out. That's not to say he can't, but it seems like Michael and the others knew all 30, and they haven't changed.
Then again, all records the Church kept have been destroyed over the centuries, so I suppose it could have happened.
Oh, agreed, I have no reason at all to think he has done so already. I just think it is the closest he can come to actually "freeing" one of the Denarian Fallen, since I dont believe he has the power/ability/freedom to actually destroy a Coin any more than Heaven can apparently take one completely out of Circulation.
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Ah .... Gotcha.
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My understanding of the Blackened Denarii is that it was Lucifer who bound thirty of his most troublesome employees to them to keep them out of contention for overthrowing the established order. These were those who had both ambition and enough power to make trouble for Lucy, especially working together. If anything could cancel out Lucy's binding, I'd imagine it would be something tied to the Anti-Lucifer. Not really sure the balance between thirty Coins and three Swords comes into play; just because something exists currently in balance doesn't mean that that balance can't be upturned—that was the crux of the plot in Summer Knight. It'd certainly be disastrous, but that's sort of the goal of Nic's plot.
And it'd also be cool to see what The White God does to counter such a move; I'd imagine Anduriel and Uriel wouldn't get along particularly well.
Well, an Archangel lent his Grace to countering it. I don't think he has many bigger tools to put in play...
Or for that matter bigger allies to throw in, since Mab and Hades were already in on this one (maybe not as allies by their own understanding, but eh).
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Well, an Archangel lent his Grace to countering it. I don't think he has many bigger tools to put in play...
Yeah, but that was just to counter a Fallen still trapped inside a Coin with a host; imagine Uriel vs. Anduriel without the whole host situation. Just raw, terrifying power.
For what it's worth, I'm reasonably certain Uriel would just sneeze and Anduriel would pop like a balloon.
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I still think Uriel is trying to redeem Anduriel. I mean they share part of the same name so I think there is a closer connection between these two angels than say two other angels with different names.
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I still think Uriel is trying to redeem Anduriel. I mean they share part of the same name so I think there is a closer connection between these two angels than say two other angels with different names.
Uriel apparently means something to the effect of "God is my light".
According to this reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/3hs0bj/anduriels_name/), Anduriel is a made up name.
The "el" suffix, as we know, is the "of God" portion of an angel's name, so removing that leaves "Uri" and "Anduri", or possibly "Ur" and "Andur", depending on how the construction works. "Anduri" could be construed as a direct negative of "Uri", like adding "dis" or "un" to a Latin root. While Uriel would mean "God is my light", Anduriel could mean something like "God is my darkness". That would imply that when Anduriel rebelled, he chose a rebellious name, overriding whatever his original God-given name was.
Based on that reasoning, either Anduriel is a moniker chosen out of spite and as foil to Uriel's office, or it is the original name of the Fallen Angel with a different and unknown root. In either case, though, Anduriel's name doesn't seem directly related to Uriel's.
I could easily be wrong, though. Etymology excites me, and I will readily follow linguistic rabbits down numerous holes.
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I would think that based on the names and based on their jobs that Uriel is very closely linked to Anduriel. When the linkage occurred is up for debate.
Uriel - Spook of TWG.
Anduriel - Information Gathering Specialist.
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I would think that based on the names and based on their jobs that Uriel is very closely linked to Anduriel. When the linkage occurred is up for debate.
Uriel - Spook of TWG.
Anduriel - Information Gathering Specialist.
For the record, "Anduriel" translates to something like "God is not my home" or "There is no God in my home." (A/An- prefixes in Latin/Greek literally translate as "Not," or "lacking." "Duriel" in Hebrew translates something like "My home is with God.")
But I agree, their roles are very similar, and their names both have "Uriel" in it. And Raidem, I believe that redemption is always the preferred option, and Uriel wishes it—but I also doubt he'd hesitate if that became impractical. Uriel and Anduriel mirror Michael and Nicodemus very well; we saw Michael desperately trying to save Nicodemus (in some of my favorite scenes in the series—notably, Nicodemus denies three times in Skin Game, if memory serves), but then saw him take the gloves off for the first time when it became clear it wouldn't work.
Not trying to start any real debate, but there have been theological arguments for centuries now over whether or not Fallen angels can be redeemed; many say no. I don't know how it works in the Dresden Files, but I'd guess that it's possible for it to happen, but like a psychologist's patient, they have to want to change (and ask for it).
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I would think that based on the names and based on their jobs that Uriel is very closely linked to Anduriel. When the linkage occurred is up for debate.
Uriel - Spook of TWG.
Anduriel - Information Gathering Specialist.
That would make sense with Anduriel's ability to know what's going on in shadows.
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Hey, maybe Harry will change Anduriel's name. Uriel felt the magnitude of Harry's naming. If Harry so chose to name Anduriel differently, he could change Anduriel to something other than what he was. Harry was able to name Lash and by doing so helped liberate her from Lasciel. I think Harry could target Anduriel for redemption.
Harry has already changed the Denarians in general to Nickleheads, so he has already in a way degraded their strength.
So going with what some have said before about Anduriel vs. Duriel. Maybe Harry will end up assisting Anduriel changing to Duriel.
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Uriel apparently means something to the effect of "God is my light". ...
...The "el" suffix, as we know, is the "of God" portion of an angel's name, so removing that leaves "Uri" and "Anduri", or possibly "Ur" and "Andur", depending on how the construction works....
...Uriel felt the magnitude of Harry's naming. If Harry so chose to name Anduriel differently, he could change Anduriel to something other than what he was. Harry was able to name Lash and by doing so helped liberate her from Lasciel...
Just a side interesting thought.
I think Harry Shortened Uriel to Uri, which following Were's etymology would drop the 'el' getting rid of the 'of God' part of the name, maybe making Uriel fall or stripping him of his powers.
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Harry attempted to Name Uriel differently but got stared down and firmly corrected. Harry revised the Name from Uri to Mr. Sunshine to which Uriel replied something to effect of "that's fine."
You guys think Harry will ever call Anduriel, "Duriel" in an attempt to change him?
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Harry attempted to Name Uriel differently but got stared down and firmly corrected. Harry revised the Name from Uri to Mr. Sunshine to which Uriel replied something to effect of "that's fine."
You guys think Harry will ever call Anduriel, "Duriel" in an attempt to change him?
Wouldn't it be funny if Nick gave Andi the coin and that is what Anduriel's name was changed to?
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Wouldn't it be funny if Nick gave Andi the coin and that is what Anduriel's name was changed to?
Poor Butters.
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That's what you get when you are a Jewish Knight of the Cross.
LOL