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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Katarn on March 09, 2018, 12:58:35 AM
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Looking through the books and the various WoJ, I was trying to pin down a complete list of the Faerie queens (referring to their individual successors):
MOTHER WINTER
*Mother Winter (only holder of the title)
WINTER QUEEN
*Unknown number of predecessors (immediate predecessor died c. 1066)
*Mab (c. 1066 to present)
WINTER LADY
*??
*Mab (unknown to c. 1066, ascended to Winter Queen)
*1 or more unknown Winter Ladies
*Maeve (~200 years ago to Cold Days)
*Molly Carpenter (Cold Days to present)
MOTHER SUMMER
*Unknown number of predecessors (only 1 predecessor in recorded history)
*Current Mother Summer (sometime in recorded history to present)
SUMMER QUEEN
*Unknown number of predecessors
*Titania (c. 1066 to present)
SUMMER LADY
*??
*Titania (unknown to c. 1066, ascended to Summer Queen)
*??
*Aurora (unknown to Summer Knight)
*Lily (Summer Knight to Cold Days)
*Sarissa (Cold Days to present)
I put "??" where it's unknown if there was a predecessor or queen in the time period (for example, we don't know if Mab/Titania had predecessors as the Ladies, and we don't know if there were any Ladies between Titania and Aurora).
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So, would Mother Winter be the closest to the source of Fae power?
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So, would Mother Winter be the closest to the source of Fae power?
I don't follow your meaning. Do you mean the list order? That was just arbitrary. Mother Winter is the only one of the six to be the only one to hold her mantle.
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So, would Mother Winter be the closest to the source of Fae power?
The Mother Winter mantle might yet even turn out to be the portion of power the original Hecate chose to keep for herself when dividing the Courts and queen mantles.
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Although not certain wouldn't the current Mother Summer be one of the previous Summer Queens?
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I don't follow your meaning. Do you mean the list order? That was just arbitrary. Mother Winter is the only one of the six to be the only one to hold her mantle.
I guess I am saying the being holding the Winter Mother mantle has always been Winter Mother. The other beings holding Fae Mantles came later. So, Winter Mother could have the greatest understanding of Fae Queen origins.
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From what I gathered there were six souls that took the Queen mantles to include Mother Winter. So, I do believe even she was mortal once.
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Now you should list all of the potential Ladies and Queens across all the pantheons. Start with triple goddesses and go from their. List them in chronological order as much as possible. Some may be different names for the same host, while some might be different hosts.
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So, would Mother Winter be the closest to the source of Fae power?
Any chance that Winter queens are stronger in general? We know that Mab has considerably more minions under her control than summer does. Summer has 40k to counteract the 40k Winter has 'not on guard duty'. So based on what we have seen from toot toot accumulating power from having more faries under his control increases his power this should translate to that winter is stronger then summer.
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Any chance that Winter queens are stronger in general? We know that Mab has considerably more minions under her control than summer does. Summer has 40k to counteract the 40k Winter has 'not on guard duty'. So based on what we have seen from toot toot accumulating power from having more faries under his control increases his power this should translate to that winter is stronger then summer.
Very fair point, and certainly possible. In terms of personal power, I'd say the Queens are equals, as are the Ladies (generally speaking). There very well may be a power difference between the Mothers, however.
I'd say that when you reach the scale of the Mothers, the difference in relative power, however vast from our tiny human perspective, is probably not all that much.
Point of order, however: my understanding of the WoJ on Toot-Toot is that his size and power increases as Harry's does, not so much that he has more followers.
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Very fair point, and certainly possible. In terms of personal power, I'd say the Queens are equals, as are the Ladies (generally speaking). There very well may be a power difference between the Mothers, however.
I'd say that when you reach the scale of the Mothers, the difference in relative power, however vast from our tiny human perspective, is probably not all that much.
Point of order, however: my understanding of the WoJ on Toot-Toot is that his size and power increases as Harry's does, not so much that he has more followers.
If the power differential is in the mothers then mother winter is by far much stronger then mother summer, but maybe due to her missing walking stick is less able to use her power?
also jim frequently uses the term 'influence' to describe fairy power. I would imagine having more subordinates and controlling the defense of reality is a lot of influence.
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Somebody loop me in: Where is it said that there was a previous Mother Summer?
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1. the mothers - how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
-WoJ
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Although not certain wouldn't the current Mother Summer be one of the previous Summer Queens?
Most likely yes, but there wasn't any explicit confirmation I was aware of. We've seen the Ladies have their mantle passed to someone outside of the court (ie Molly), so hypothetically that could happen higher up as well. Unless, we assume the Queens and Mothers have an automatic upgrade of the Fae the next rung down the ladder to their position. (For example, we could assume that if Mother Winter dies, Mab automatically becomes Mother Winter, instead of the nearest vessel getting the mantle, as with the Ladies).
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Most likely yes, but there wasn't any explicit confirmation I was aware of. We've seen the Ladies have their mantle passed to someone outside of the court (ie Molly), so hypothetically that could happen higher up as well. Unless, we assume the Queens and Mothers have an automatic upgrade of the Fae the next rung down the ladder to their position. (For example, we could assume that if Mother Winter dies, Mab automatically becomes Mother Winter, instead of the nearest vessel getting the mantle, as with the Ladies).
They do have an automatic upgrade, at least that was very much how Mab described it while Harry had a gun to her head on Demonreach that time. The only doubt Ive heard regarding the current Mother Summer is that there are some WOJ's that can be made to imply that /both/ queens were killed around the whole Hasting's shakeup, and that it could be possible that the Current Mother Summer might have skipped the Queen Stage and gone directly from Lady (or even pre-Lady Candidate) directly to Mother, if enough Death were to happen all at once.
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The previous Mother Summer (by implication) wasn't killed, she abdicated ...
1. the mothers - how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
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Yep. One of my wags have Mrs spunklecrief as the retired mother summer.
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THAT would be AWESOME!!
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From what I gathered there were six souls that took the Queen mantles to include Mother Winter. So, I do believe even she was mortal once.
That's gather from what exactly? Everything we have on MW implies she was never human.
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The previous Mother Summer (by implication) wasn't killed, she abdicated ...
Right. The theory isnt that the previous Mother Summer was killed, it's that she abdicated right around the same time (or because of the same event) as something that killed the previous Summer Queen, such that the Current Mother Winter jumped straight from Lady to Mother and never held the Queen position in any practical sense.
I honestly dont entirely understand the forces that drove people to go for this particular theory, other than trying to untangle the genetics of the Court's royal family, since Mab and Titania are genetic twins. There's been at least two generations between Titania and the original Mother Summer, so there'd presumably be at least one unaccounted for Winter Queen (ie the current Mother Summer's contemporary). And the other WOJ about their family (below) says that there was a time where " the Winter Queens died" just before Mab took the throne, but the context of the WOJ makes it seem like he meant to say both Queens as in the Summer Queen and Winter Queen, as opposed to the plural "Winter Queens" meaning the Queen and the Lady of Winter (which would mean that Mab went straight from non-mantled/non-royalty directly to Winter Queen without having first served as Winter Lady).
2015 DragonCon
I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No. Mab was not the first Mab. Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth. She was her sidekick and handmaiden. And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too. So she got to be much more powerful and awesome. But that was a while back. When that happened. And the same thing with Titania. The Winter Queens actually died. The last time things got awful in the wizard world. So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous. They're a bit nervous about Dresden. Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden. Mab is keeping her enemies close.)
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Hey Q,
That quote, to me, doesn't speak to the Mothers, or the change for Mother summer at all. It suggests that Mab (current) and Titania (current) became the Queens that are at the same time, or close to it.
Though, with the way we tend to over think things, I can see someone making a connection.
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Yea, I feel its an over assumption to say that means anything befell the Mothers themselves in that quote.
I'm of the mind though, When MS originally abdicated it was Father Summer/Dagda archetype that changed literally when TWC/G came down in mortal form. There's a woj that the lesser mantles will begin to change the higher up mantles in the court, but if the higher ups change the lesser are directly effected. Hecate and TWG played musical chairs about 2k years ago methinks, and we got the female courts from that change.
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Hey Q,
That quote, to me, doesn't speak to the Mothers, or the change for Mother summer at all. It suggests that Mab (current) and Titania (current) became the Queens that are at the same time, or close to it.
That is all I was saying. As far as I recall I have never seen a version of the theory that involved the Mother's Dying until you mentioned it here, and I generally take the other WOJ to mean it would be nearly impossible to pull off anyway. All I am pointing to is that there is an apparent generational gap in there, because there have to have been more Queens (as in the middle mantle, specifically) than we have accounted for. The Currnent Mother Summer is at least one generation younger than the Current/Original Mother Winter. Which means that the current Mother Summer (we'll call her Betty, for Betty White casting), was once (within the lifetime of the current court framework)the Summer Queen while Mother Winter (Lets just call her Grouchy) was in office with the original Mother Summer, and with a Winter Queen serving under her, ie. Betty's queenly counterpart. That counter part is not Mab. Also, there needs to have been another Summer Queen to serve between Betty and Titania, to have died back around Hastings. So the pattern would imply there were more queens/generations in there, and with the exceptions in Harry;s lifetime, all the ones we knwo of have been actual blood relatives, so the family tree is either severely warped or there are more changes of mantles than we have accounted for so far. That was my only point.
I should have pointed out that the theory generally assumes that the generations and courts track each other, that circumstance if not any actual force of Balance has played out such that the Queens (and to a lesser extent ladies) are contemporaries of each other. If Winter had just one extra instance of Queenly turnover than Summer, to counter the shift that happened when the original Mother Summer retired, it all fits fine.
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DRINK!!
LOL