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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on January 16, 2018, 07:43:01 PM
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We don't know a lot about Marcone, but I do believe his bloodline isn't a random one. It is important. I believe his eyes that are green like dollar bills may be a hint.. The soulgaze that displayed I believe a tiger is another..... Ideas?
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I'm pretty sure it's "Like a tiger." Not an actual literal tiger.
After doing some research, it's a "Tiger's soul." Which is not necessarily a literal tiger.
As for his bloodline not being random, maybe, but why? There's nothing we've seen to suggest it, other than people wanting it to be so.
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I am okay with Marcdone being an exceptional but normal man.
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His eyes being green like dollar bills was a hint- a hint that it was an author’s first book and he wasn’t a great writer. It was just a heavy handed description while trying a noir theme. That’s it. I remember reading it the first time in Storm Front and thinking how noir cliche it was.
As to his lineage, I hope he’s just some guy. Not everyone needs to be supernatural and or related.
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Ananda said it all.
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Mab's son
Hades son
Harry and Murphy's son.
Lea's son.
Vadderungs descendant.
Lucifers son.
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I believe Marcone is purely vanilla mortal. To say otherwise detracts from both his accomplishments and the thematic role he plays in the series. And I've done the whole "X-character is related to Y-character!!!" theorycrafting rigmarole in past fandoms, and I've quite learned my lesson. I'm well over it.
That said.
I do still enjoy the pet theory that Mab and Odin had a fling some centuries ago and Marcone is a resulting descendant (though still a complete vanilla mortal). This is very much a pet theory. I don't think it's true. I can't imagine such a revelation affecting much about the plot or the characters. And if it doesn't add to the story, I can't see it being included.
Vadderung (through Gard) pays closer attention to Marcone than I believe their business relationship necessarily calls for. In "Even Hand" Gard appeared to be on the lookout for moments when Marcone made decisions based on moral reasons over pure logic or business, and Marcone indicates this scrutiny is a very regular habit of hers ("As ever, Gard watched me.") I'd also like to bring up Vadderung's words to Harry in Changes:
He smiled, and laughter lurked beneath his next words, never quite surfacing. "You defy beings that should cow you into silence. You resist forces that are inevitable for no more reason than that you believe they should be resisted. You bow your head to neither demons nor angels, and you put yourself in harm’s way to defend those who cannot defend themselves." He nodded slowly. "I think I like you."
One could imagine Vadderung saying the same of Marcone. At least on Marcone's better days. Let's not forget Vadderung helped sign him onto the Accords. Harry (reluctantly) needed to give Marcone better authority to help defend Chicago, and Lara most likely wanted to repay a debt for the Raith Deeps and establish a business partnership (with the possibility of business takeover via White Court vampire feeding). But we don't really know why Vadderung signed, or why he did not do so earlier. One wonders if Marcone's actions in the Raith Deeps had any impact on Vadderung's decision.
"I am... not what I was. My children are scattered around the world. Most of them have forgotten our purpose. Once the Jotuns retreated..." (Changes, chapter 21). If we're ever going to find out Vadderung's specific interest in Marcone, it may be as soon as Peace Talks, where Jotuns will be making their appearance.
As for Mab, we have the obvious base parallels with the cat comparisons (although Marcone has also been referred to as "reptilian") and green-colored eyes that sometimes change color (although for Marcone the change was more figurative than literal). Mab has also established a working relationship with Marcone, one which started before Skin Game and is implied by Harry in "Jury Duty" to possibly be an ongoing affair ("He and Mab had been in cahoots lately. Maybe he’d asked her to arrange it. This had her fingerprints all over it."). Despite Harry being careful during Small Favor to avoid stating his motivations for saving Marcone around both Gard and Demeter, Marcone by Skin Game knows Harry did so at the behest of Mab. There are a number of ways Marcone could have learned this, but Mab may have even told him herself.
The question is why. Mab (or Winter) has, multiple times, in Small Favor, in "Bombshells", and in Skin Game, executed plans which primarily benefited her goals, but also just so happened to benefit Marcone. In Skin Game, Mab and Marcone's scheme is implied to be at least a team effort, if not mostly Mab's idea. But strangely, the first chapter of Peace Talks seems to paint a different picture of events as far as the supernatural community is concerned, if Ramirez is to be believed. ("Marcone maneuvered Nicodemus Archleone into a corner and took everything he had, without breaking a single one of the bylaws of the Accords. Say what you will about the man, but he’s competent. It impressed a lot of people.") Why does it sound as if Marcone is getting most, if not all, the credit? Why would Mab allow this, when the events of Skin Game would have served as a magnificent warning to all against crossing the Queen of Air and Darkness? Is it possible that Mab is personally looking into the success of one of her descendants, one who finally accomplished enough on his own power to warrant notice? Is Odin doing the same?
Eh. Who knows. That's about all I got. This post is sort of a jumbled mess, I apologize. I just wanted to get this paranoid "theory" out for the sake of discussion (and I do enjoy adding fuel to other people's flaming theories). Like I said, I don't actually believe Marcone is actually a descendant of Mab or Odin. I mean honestly, outside of Vadderung mentioning he has children, nothing I wrote above actually has anything to do with foreshadowing familial relationships in particular. I do think there's more at work than we currently know, but I would more readily claim that it has to do with building parallels between Harry and Marcone as rivals and foils to each other.
To be honest, I think I just want it to be true for the sake of the moment when Harry gets to crack jokes about the Mafia don not being purely of Italian decent.
It also helps justify my other pet theory that Marcone wields a Sword in the Mirror Mirror 'verse. And also my other other pet theory that Hendricks's proximity to Marcone is no coincidence, as Hendricks is the latest reincarnation of the Norse hero Helgi, a silent warrior who fell in love with the valkyrie Sváfa, and the two would go on to reincarnate over and over, always reuniting as lovers (Sváfa being an earlier incarnation of the valkyrie Sigrún).
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His eyes being green like dollar bills was a hint- a hint that it was an author’s first book and he wasn’t a great writer. It was just a heavy handed description while trying a noir theme. That’s it. I remember reading it the first time in Storm Front and thinking how noir cliche it was.
As to his lineage, I hope he’s just some guy. Not everyone needs to be supernatural and or related.
Conjecture stated as fact
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Yeah, that's an unheard of thing here, where people spin their unsupported theories and conjecture as fact.
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Yeah, that's an unheard of thing here, where people spin their unsupported theories and conjecture as fact.
Not really. Most people say "I believe" or "my theory is..." or "I think", making it clear it's an opinion.
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His eyes being green like dollar bills was a hint- a hint that it was an author’s first book and he wasn’t a great writer. It was just a heavy handed description while trying a noir theme. That’s it. I remember reading it the first time in Storm Front and thinking how noir cliche it was.
As to his lineage, I hope he’s just some guy. Not everyone needs to be supernatural and or related.
Noooot! lol. His younger self is described with "summer hunters green eyes" in direct correlation to his fae connotations. He's as archetypal as Dresden is and one of his main Archetypes Is Erlking. His heritage is unknown but i'd like to point out, his striking similarities to Macfinn and also... Uriel, think about Uriels eyes, his hair... compare the two.
None of this points to a precise heritage and i'm of the opinion Fae heritiage is actually effected by the current formation of the fae(meaning previously 'fae' wouldn't have been correct terminology or end state, which the Aesir and Vanir were NOT fairies but apparently were the two parties of the fairie war), But he does have something in his heritage... heck even his eye color change is something, It cooled and tempered by logical frost. one wonders if a choice wasn't attached he never even twigged to making.
Not really. Most people say "I believe" or "my theory is..." or "I think", making it clear it's an opinion.
Easier to remember everything is perspective but the facts pointed out directly from book or woj. of course the rest of it's opinion. Even the interpretation of those facts betimes lol.
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The only facts are what Butcher says are facts.
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I've long argued that Marcone is Mab's son. :)
I've even argued that Marcone descends from Vadderung as I believe Harry descends from Vadderung too. I too have noted Gard's intent focus on Marcone as if she is trying to place him on some family tree. Although you think that perhaps she is linking him to someone close to Vadderung, I think she is seeing close similarities between Marcone and Harry. And she is getting a bit clued in on that, or at least a uncanny resemblance in behavior maybe even some looks between the two. Marcone and Harry have favorite restaurants, they have a no children rule, they have a strict no harm to my people rule, both are stuck in their ways, both have personal relationships with Mab, both are protectors of Chicago, both share many plots and same pages in the comics, both have relationships with Vadderung...
Fact: Marcone plays himself off as a paternal authority figure. (Jim video) See also text from first interaction between Harry and Marcone. There are several instances of father, grandfatherly, father to son, etc.
My theory gets a twist in trying to place time travel origins for Marcone and having his parents be both Murphy and Harry.
Note: In Fool Moon, right after the Loup-garou and Denton are defeated a Cold Front lands in Chicago. It's as if Mab arrives in Chicago upon that victory.
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Fwiw, Im quite confident Marcone has Royal Heritage mixed in there somewhere... 8)
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But really, who doesn't?
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But really, who doesn't?
Good Question...Bob?
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Fwiw, Im quite confident Marcone has Royal Heritage mixed in there somewhere... 8)
I wouldn't be surprised to find Mirror Mirror Marcone reformed and carrying a Sword, but I'm not yet convinced Harry is on the right track about royal blood being a requirement.
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Oh, I don't think it is a 'requirement.' I think it might be an added plus.
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But really, who doesn't?
Sure but it is only important if you have a substantial claim according to the inheritance laws of the culture of the person you claim as your ancestor.
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Oh, I don't think it is a 'requirement.' I think it might be an added plus.
Perhaps my Marcone theory includes a royal line of some kind! muaha
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Sure but it is only important if you have a substantial claim according to the inheritance laws of the culture of the person you claim as your ancestor.
Is it though. Do you think that Michael is the first son of the first son of etc... of Charlemagne? Or Sanya for Saladin? For the swords, I don't think it takes anything more than some small amount of lineage to work, so, if it makes any kind of difference for Marcone, why would it be any different? He's certainly not claiming any sort of divine right to rule a specific kingdom based on his bloodline, he's more like a random mercenary who sets up shop based on right of the sword.
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Is it though. Do you think that Michael is the first son of the first son of etc... of Charlemagne? Or Sanya for Saladin? For the swords, I don't think it takes anything more than some small amount of lineage to work, so, if it makes any kind of difference for Marcone, why would it be any different? He's certainly not claiming any sort of divine right to rule a specific kingdom based on his bloodline, he's more like a random mercenary who sets up shop based on right of the sword.
In the end it is about human beliefs and the belief in royal bloodlines is a belief royal dynasties promoted in the past for obvious reasons but some people really believe it even in the real world. It is about the claim of inheritance, the right of kingship and the responsibilities it brings. That belief has power in the dresdenverse.
This is not about who shares dna, illegitimate children rarely apply, but about family tree which seldom includes all ancestors but important families in the past always wanted a family tree with important ancestors to brag about and they did want it badly enough to fake it if necessary.
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But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne? That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree? Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.
Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now. Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa. And yet, that counts for the swords. I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor. And he sat on the throne. So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage. Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.
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But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne? That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree? Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.
Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now. Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa. And yet, that counts for the swords. I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor. And he sat on the throne. So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage. Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.
Depends on how much a family spreads... If you have parents having few children, and they have few children, and they have few children.... The blood line really won't spread that much. Especially if we are talking about say one man who's of importance but not his siblings, or cousins, and it's from that man's direct connection. Also there may be outside forces killing off that blood line... Like Shiro being the last descendant of the king of Okinawa... Michael and his family may be the last of that particular bloodline as well.
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The thing is, Shiro isn't the last descendant of the king of Okinawa. He's a descendant of the last king of Okinawa. One of, presumably, many. Michael, being the last descendant of Charlemagne is incredibly unlikely, because effectively everyone of European heritage is descended from him, the dude had 60 great grand kids. Royal families don't just have one or two kids, generally.
And, like the last king of Okinawa, many of those royal titles have ceased to be. Even if you can prove your direct lineage, you show up to Normandy saying you're the Nth descendant of Robert II, they'll say that's very nice, and then arrest you if you try to take over the government.
Maybe it's true that the Knights are all in direct line for whichever throne. Possibly. But that would mean that Michael, who happens to live in Chicago, AND Murphy AND Susan AND Butters are all secretly the One True Heir. That there are no other better claimants to four different thrones, and also they all happen to be buddies with Harry. Oh, and Harry himself. And that's only if he gets it through Malcolm, because otherwise Thomas would be the one who gets it, being older.
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The thing is, Shiro isn't the last descendant of the king of Okinawa. He's a descendant of the last king of Okinawa. One of, presumably, many. Michael, being the last descendant of Charlemagne is incredibly unlikely, because effectively everyone of European heritage is descended from him, the dude had 60 great grand kids. Royal families don't just have one or two kids, generally.
And, like the last king of Okinawa, many of those royal titles have ceased to be. Even if you can prove your direct lineage, you show up to Normandy saying you're the Nth descendant of Robert II, they'll say that's very nice, and then arrest you if you try to take over the government.
Maybe it's true that the Knights are all in direct line for whichever throne. Possibly. But that would mean that Michael, who happens to live in Chicago, AND Murphy AND Susan AND Butters are all secretly the One True Heir. That there are no other better claimants to four different thrones, and also they all happen to be buddies with Harry. Oh, and Harry himself. And that's only if he gets it through Malcolm, because otherwise Thomas would be the one who gets it, being older.
Well I'd guess that anyone can wield a Sword, but the people who wield them for long periods of time (Michael, Shiro, Sonja) are the direct blood relatives. Now I don't know if this is even part of the lore. However if I wanted as an author to get around the "we all have some connection" I'd write it so that for example only the oldest child, and their oldest child is considered the direct connection. This dramatically cuts down the number of people. For example Michael's father is considered a direct connection, but his fathers younger brother would not be. Kind of like in the royal families the eldest brother becomes King, and any younger brother is a prince unless the older brother dies or leaves the throne.
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But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne? That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree? Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.
Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now. Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa. And yet, that counts for the swords. I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor. And he sat on the throne. So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage. Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.
Depends on how you look at it. Most old noble families died out. Most of us don’t have the tradition, the story. If Michael says he descends from Charlemagne that does not mean he digged up his bones and did a dna sequencing, it means there is a living tradition in his family that says so and that is rare.
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Well I'd guess that anyone can wield a Sword, but the people who wield them for long periods of time (Michael, Shiro, Sonja) are the direct blood relatives.
Well, again, damn near everyone is a "direct blood relative," of one sort or another. But as for the idea that its only the long term Knights who are next in line, I don't think it's supported. For one, I don't think there's any real difference made between the long term vs short term Knights. Mostly it seems like they're given the Swords for a job, the life expectancy seems to be awfully short, but no real differentiation was made between the "quality" of their stint.
And if so, that knocks it down from four secret heirs to three secret heirs, who all happen to be living in Chicago, and friends with Harry. Maybe two if you don't think Murphy's "job offer" counts in the same way Michael and Butters' did. That's still pushing the bounds of credulity to me.
Plus, if that is the case, it makes Nic's job much easier. If Molly can track her ancestry back to find Charlemagne, then Nic can track down all the descendants of whatever, so he can then figure out who he's got to keep an eye on. It would take a lot of prep work, but once he spends a century or so (or having his minions spend a century or so) tracking it down, just checking in every five years on the people on the list will keep it up to date. And then we're back to the problem of it being either too many to keep track of, in which case it's too many to really be all that special, or enough that he can keep track of them, and then go around, say, killing everyone once they've had a kid, reducing the candidacy for that bloodline to a 6 month old kid in no position to wield a sword.
Basically, I just chalk the whole thing up to Jim not being a genealogist and not quite understanding how much royal blood is out in the world.
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it is not about the bloodline as such, it is about the living tradition, the story.
Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?
And I do not think it was ever presented as a necessary condition, just as something that helps.
Or used to help in the past. Maybe Butters broke with more than one tradition.
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Any possibility that Butters, who is Jewish, is descended from the King of Kings?
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Any possibility that Butters, who is Jewish, is descended from the King of Kings?
That is the wrong question.
Is there in Butters family a living (family) tradition documented or oral that describes how Butters descends from the house of David? Does he have a claim however far removed? Is there a story?
Go to one of the earlier versions of this story. The writers of the gospels thought it necessary to include Jesus ancestry. Even if there are two versions with internal contradictions or a strong suspicion that the whole pedigree is fake anyway it was necessary to do so which tells a lot.
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it is not about the bloodline as such, it is about the living tradition, the story.
Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?
And I do not think it was ever presented as a necessary condition, just as something that helps.
Or used to help in the past. Maybe Butters broke with more than one tradition.
Im not convinced this is true. Not because I dont think it's necessary for the connection to be Known, but I dont think it is operating on the mechanisms of "Belief", nor does it need to be Known, persay. For one thing, it will always be Known, by the Universal Truth stuff that Ghost-harry tapped into, and also thanks to the Archive. But for another, this is a Heavenly Power that is (By WOJ) based on the aspect of Responsibility inherent in Royal Lineage. Given how TWG's forces have always professed to work regarding Free Will and chains of Choices, I think it's entirely possible that it needs to be a legitimate (if not necessarily direct/linear) connection of Inheritance from a Mortal that made a Choice (and/or made Oaths) to be Responsible for his/her fellow Mortals. Even if the false tradition of Lineage is centuries old and firmly anchored in history and the minds of the populace, Heaven would still know that the requisite Choice was never made for that line.
The real difference being that a False royal tradition (entirely common historically) would not work, it would have to be legit. It also means that, in theory, a New Royal line could arise, given the right situation and Responsibility.
Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?
Not really, but that's only because he's a freaking Knight and the Universe tells them things in strange ways; for all I know the archangel that dropped off Esperacchius just referred to him as "Saladin's heir" through the conversation. Similarly we only know of the Carpenter/Charlemagne connection because of the research done by an apprentice wizard, which may easily have included anything from supernatural sources of information to Council records (kept by a sub-race of super-long-lived scholars that are themselves a bit obsessed with the genealogy of magical talents. And our third Data-point is Shiro, who's genealogy research was also done by wizards, and in general Japan has a much more complete and/longstanding cultural tradition of accurate Genealogy records.
All that to say that our datapoints are all abnormal enough to be suspect.
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Im not convinced this is true. Not because I dont think it's necessary for the connection to be Known, but I dont think it is operating on the mechanisms of "Belief", nor does it need to be Known, persay. For one thing, it will always be Known, by the Universal Truth stuff that Ghost-harry tapped into, and also thanks to the Archive. But for another, this is a Heavenly Power that is (By WOJ) based on the aspect of Responsibility inherent in Royal Lineage. Given how TWG's forces have always professed to work regarding Free Will and chains of Choices, I think it's entirely possible that it needs to be a legitimate (if not necessarily direct/linear) connection of Inheritance from a Mortal that made a Choice (and/or made Oaths) to be Responsible for his/her fellow Mortals. Even if the false tradition of Lineage is centuries old and firmly anchored in history and the minds of the populace, Heaven would still know that the requisite Choice was never made for that line.
The real difference being that a False royal tradition (entirely common historically) would not work, it would have to be legit. It also means that, in theory, a New Royal line could arise, given the right situation and Responsibility.
Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?
Not really, but that's only because he's a freaking Knight and the Universe tells them things in strange ways; for all I know the archangel that dropped off Esperacchius just referred to him as "Saladin's heir" through the conversation. Similarly we only know of the Carpenter/Charlemagne connection because of the research done by an apprentice wizard, which may easily have included anything from supernatural sources of information to Council records (kept by a sub-race of super-long-lived scholars that are themselves a bit obsessed with the genealogy of magical talents. And our third Data-point is Shiro, who's genealogy research was also done by wizards, and in general Japan has a much more complete and/longstanding cultural tradition of accurate Genealogy records.
All that to say that our datapoints are all abnormal enough to be suspect.
A false shroud did work, the real one just works better.
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A false shroud did work, the real one just works better.
A false shroud managed to garner some form of Power, but it was notably different/weaker than the authentic one, and that took the popular belief of the entire populace (or at least the relevant cross-section that's heard of christian relics) to fake. If there were a similarly famous Nail of the Cross in a museum, for example, that would likely be able to focus Faith similar to the faux-shroud and accomplish interesting things as a spell component. But I maintain that it would not make a Knight, or anything close, because Heaven would not be fooled.
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A false shroud managed to garner some form of Power, but it was notably different/weaker than the authentic one, and that took the popular belief of the entire populace (or at least the relevant cross-section that's heard of christian relics) to fake. If there were a similarly famous Nail of the Cross in a museum, for example, that would likely be able to focus Faith similar to the faux-shroud and accomplish interesting things as a spell component. But I maintain that it would not make a Knight, or anything close, because Heaven would not be fooled.
I'm on the fence on that one, I think the nails are special in and of themselves. but as it was thought of by Harry in SG the sword itself should be capable of taking on that form by Faith alone. It's simply a direct connection to the cosmic force in some ways.
I think that's the Mjolnir reference with Michael's beer opener. The Hammer is a real likely incarnation of Hope/Duty itself. But no Nails were ever directly connected to it. Even the nails themselves hold power through actually having bits of Christ's blood so it's hard to say that extra power is not a direct result of things done with it like Morgana's atheme...
I think my bigger question is what happens to the fake if the real one is destroyed in a secret battle...? does it get the rest by Vector analysis?
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I'm on the fence on that one, I think the nails are special in and of themselves. but as it was thought of by Harry in SG the sword itself should be capable of taking on that form by Faith alone. It's simply a direct connection to the cosmic force in some ways.
I think that's the Mjolnir reference with Michael's beer opener. The Hammer is a real likely incarnation of Hope/Duty itself. But no Nails were ever directly connected to it. Even the nails themselves hold power through actually having bits of Christ's blood so it's hard to say that extra power is not a direct result of things done with it like Morgana's atheme...
You lost me, what?
I think my bigger question is what happens to the fake if the real one is destroyed in a secret battle...? does it get the rest by Vector analysis?
Im going to go with Yes, based purely on the fact that at least some of Fidelacchius's Power actually predates the Nail.
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You lost me, what?
Ermm... key word in sword of faith is Faith? not sword or even nail.
Im going to go with Yes, based purely on the fact that at least some of Fidelacchius's Power actually predates the Nail.
Precisely mine point. I think the power of the cosmic force mixed with the power of the nails in power/purpose. Minus the Nail the force itself would still exist it would simply lack the foci of the Blood of a diety.... Which the focus would conceivably have to do with the purity of the Knight and his time.
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Ermm... key word in sword of faith is Faith? not sword or even nail.
Sure, but I missed the part where Michael's bottle opener was anything more than geek swag?
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But Jim is a lazy author. Why would he put that in the book if it wasn't secretly a sign that Michael was a descendant of Thor?
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But Jim is a lazy author. Why would he put that in the book if it wasn't secretly a sign that Michael was a descendant of Thor?
Because: Geeks Love Easter Eggs. And Cameos. We dig the cameo's. 8)
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As with Murphy I have a strong preference for Marcone remaining a Vanilla mortal. Giving the more detracts from their accomplishments.
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Because: Geeks Love Easter Eggs. And Cameos. We dig the cameo's. 8)
No proof per se, but COME ON MAN! He shows Mjolnir in the hands of the greatest man we know in the same book that Butters remakes The faith saber? the whole thing was a clue bat for thematic purposes(which means its also Nerdy and awesome) It's like when Tolkien made a mountain and put a Volcano in the middle of it, He clearly had plans for that volcano lol. jk.
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No proof per se, but COME ON MAN! He shows Mjolnir in the hands of the greatest man we know in the same book that Butters remakes The faith saber? the whole thing was a clue bat for thematic purposes(which means its also Nerdy and awesome) It's like when Tolkien made a mountain and put a Volcano in the middle of it, He clearly had plans for that volcano lol. jk.
Nah, it feels more like "Aragorn drank from this tankard in Bree, so clearly it is the physical reincarnation of one of the Silmarils." :P
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Conjecture stated as fact
In English class in High School, I was taught to make strong sentences dropping "I believe", "I think" so don't assume because I or someone else states something without the qualifiers that they are saying it as undisputed fact. They are writing strong sentences pushing their argument. I think it is evident in the case of a fictional universe whereby a writer is arbitrarily creating most of the rules, etc that we are all making 'opinions' contingent upon his 'fact making' ability.
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Side Question: Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait? Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation? Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?
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Side Question: Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait? Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation? Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?
I think it requires royal lineage from the time King was considered a divine authoritive right in itself. It was a 'mantle' of power in the oldest sense. The blood descendants of this time inherited this ability to take up said authority... course said descendants are now very wide spread indeed. But King lineages of old were actively blessed when taking up authority, so idk if modern 'Pin's would count.
Although again, it might also be relative to the practitioner's bloodlines, can 't shake the 3 kings/Magi connection.
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Side Question: Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait? Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation? Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?
The kingship, the tradition, the story must be compatible with the knighthood.
Not the real history maybe because that would exclude that war criminal Charlemagne but the myth. Aragorn, Arthur, ....
In the end the dresdenverse is all about story.
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The kingship, the tradition, the story must be compatible with the knighthood.
Not the real history maybe because that would exclude that war criminal Charlemagne but the myth. Aragorn, Arthur, ....
In the end the dresdenverse is all about story.
Hmm, lets chase that thought.
Two questions:
1) To what degree does this change with Changing times and popular belief/morality? Assuming that such an image that arises form the global population would work similar to how Santa Clause can still be a sword-wielding bad-ass rather than a kindly toymaker.
2)To what degree does the subjectivity, especially in conflicting perspectives on opposite sides of a War, impact this role? I mean, The Crusades theoretically had the support of Heaven (in a world where heaven gets involved). Similarly, in RL Vlad the Impaler is a nation hero in his home nation, but a literal Monster by popular myth.
Keeping in mind that the power of the Swords are not like the faux-shroud or anything similar, since they are acting as a direct conduit for TWG him/her/itself to communicate and empower a mortal, but (per Day One) is doing it personally and directly.
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Hmm, lets chase that thought.
Two questions:
1) To what degree does this change with Changing times and popular belief/morality? Assuming that such an image that arises form the global population would work similar to how Santa Clause can still be a sword-wielding bad-ass rather than a kindly toymaker.
We now have sir Butters.
Everything changes even immortals, ask mother Summer, but it changes slowly.
2)To what degree does the subjectivity, especially in conflicting perspectives on opposite sides of a War, impact this role? I mean, The Crusades theoretically had the support of Heaven (in a world where heaven gets involved). Similarly, in RL Vlad the Impaler is a nation hero in his home nation, but a literal Monster by popular myth.
If the scion is of suitable knightly material....
Keeping in mind that the power of the Swords are not like the faux-shroud or anything similar, since they are acting as a direct conduit for TWG him/her/itself to communicate and empower a mortal, but (per Day One) is doing it personally and directly.
Be it so but they are clearly shown to conform to human stories, the story does matter.
And I am not convinced there is a real kwalitative difference between twg and other gods like the hindu pantheon. Human story and belief is what they need to express themselves here and it clearly describes how they express themselves here.
Michael shrugged and took a thoughtful sip of beer. “The Grail is the most powerful symbol of God’s love and sorrow on the face of the earth, Harry. I don’t see how he could use it to do harm—but if Nicodemus sacrificed so much to acquire it, I suspect that he does.”
It is still a symbol. The power of the grail can be just the focuused power all those people have invested in that story. Just like the fake only better.
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We now have sir Butters.
Everything changes even immortals, ask mother Summer, but it changes slowly.
I agree with the general statement but I dont think I see how it applies here?
If the scion is of suitable knightly material....
By which definition of "suitable" is my point, I guess.
Be it so but they are clearly shown to conform to human stories, the story does matter.
When? I cant think of a single example of this relating to the swords.
And I am not convinced there is a real kwalitative difference between twg and other gods like the hindu pantheon. Human story and belief is what they need to express themselves here and it clearly describes how they express themselves here.
It is still a symbol. The power of the grail can be just the focuused power all those people have invested in that story. Just like the fake only better.
[/quote]Is it? I mean, there is no christian tradition of Magic Swords, and none of the "known" legends of the swords include that part or any real religious aspects, and at least one predates the Crucifixion itself. Sure, there is a lot of popular belief in the Arthurian Legends, and could indirectly feed Amoracchius via that, but I think Id argue that for "Fake" power to accumulate like that it would need to actually BE known, and widely, rather than secret knowledge known to only a few
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I agree with the general statement but I dont think I see how it applies here?By which definition of "suitable" is my point, I guess.
When? I cant think of a single example of this relating to the swords.
Is it? I mean, there is no christian tradition of Magic Swords, and none of the "known" legends of the swords include that part or any real religious aspects, and at least one predates the Crucifixion itself. Sure, there is a lot of popular belief in the Arthurian Legends, and could indirectly feed Amoracchius via that, but I think Id argue that for "Fake" power to accumulate like that it would need to actually BE known, and widely, rather than secret knowledge known to only a few
The myths and legends of the real world are not always the same as those in the dresdenverse and I think with the swords we have a clear example. There is no christian tradition about the coins either, this is a Jim Butcher invention.
However in the dresdenverse there is.
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Now, I am weak on religion. But, isn't there an idea that whatever the Pope holds true on earth than God will hold true in heaven. So, maybe the King-figure has to be blessed by a religious figure for him to be a true king by heaven. And these are the kings whose descendants can be KotC.
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Now, I am weak on religion. But, isn't there an idea that whatever the Pope holds true on earth than God will hold true in heaven. So, maybe the King-figure has to be blessed by a religious figure for him to be a true king by heaven. And these are the kings whose descendants can be KotC.
That is a common misconception about the nature of the Pope's Infallibility (which was taken to extreme levels of ridiculousness in "Dogma"). Boiling it down as much as possible, the Pope's declarations are only held infallible as they pertain to the Church itself, and/or are made ex cathedra (when he's sitting on the Holy See, his pretty awesome throne). Still, I'm quibbling, and I think your point may be valid.
Saladin had the support of both Arabs and Muslims (not the same thing), and certainly would have been blessed. None of my primary sources (wrote one of my theses on Saladin) described a ceremony, but I'm sure one took place.
George Washington is the 14th great-grandson of King Edward I (the Longshanks; the bad guy from "Braveheart," which was fun but a total bastardization, as I'm sure you all know. Fun fact: one of my ancestors was knighted by Longshanks, and later was made a feudal baron, though a tiny and relatively insignificant one; technically he was a Baron, but not a Greater Baron (since he didn't inherit the title), and was referred to as Lord of the Manor.) His reign predated the Church of England split, so his rule was "blessed" by the Pope (and he wasn't the head of the church himself), though he never met him personally; it was a proto-divine right permission-type thing.
Shiro was a descendant of the Last King of Okinawa, right? That's Sho Tai, if memory serves. I think they were Confucian, and I don't know enough about their clergy to discuss it with any authority. There was a concept of Heavenly Mandate, as far as I remember, though I have no idea what the Meji Restoration did to that concept, and that's right around the reign of Sho Tai (which was cut short; that's why he was the Last).
Butters's ethnic background is important—if he's Ashkenazi/Khazar, ethnically descended from the Tribe Judah, or if he's descended from converts. If his background is from Judah, it's possible he's descended from David or Solomon.
Oh, and Charlemagne was personally crowned by the Pope, so that one's easy.
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Applying what I've learned from Amber and depending on who exactly fits "Corwin", I could argue that Marcone is descended from "Corwin."
Corwin is connected to Yggdrasil and a black crow "Hugi"
Corwin has a son named Merlin.
Corwin is a Prince of Amber and has a family of brothers and sisters with Oberon as his father, and Dworkin as his grandfather.
Corwin has blood of both chaos and order/unicorn.
Corwin created a twinned multiverse by creating a new "Pattern" while there was a pre-existing "Pattern"
Corwin has innate immortality via this "Pattern". Basically, you must destroy the "Pattern", to destroy this "Corwin." But in destroying both you set in motion the destruction of the multiverse. (It's on a delay with cataclysmic storm).
Characters that could meet the definition of "Corwin" is Odin, Odin's father, Odin's ancestor, Mac.
Corwin also meets the definition of 'royalty.'
Marcone could be descended from this "Corwin."
I find it more likely that Harry is descended from this "Corwin."
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Thanks for the summary, Kindler. It was just something that popped into my head.
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The myths and legends of the real world are not always the same as those in the dresdenverse and I think with the swords we have a clear example. There is no christian tradition about the coins either, this is a Jim Butcher invention.
However in the dresdenverse there is.
I meant more in-world. In world there are no stories about Magic Sword with Nails in them, at least not outside of the Clued-In circles that Know that the knights are a literal Power. There are legends about Kusanagi, and plenty about Excalibur, but nothing that touches on a Connection to the Divine and so nothing that should actually affect the Truth/Manifestation of the Swords. Unless you do have an example from the text of the Sword conforming to popular stories and/or mortal belief?
That's not to say the Swords are Immune to the effects of Human Perception, I just think those effects are far more restricted and Carefully Monitored, restricted specifically to the Knights that have been granted the Authority to Use, Change, and even Break them.
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-What is the relationship between the Swords and royal blood?*
This was a question posed in one of the unsolved mysteries threads. I'm glad it is still being debated.
Thinking back on Amber, I was wondering if it corresponds in some way to the families of Order and Chaos. I think I like the in book explanation better though about having territory and defending it is what corresponds to idea of royalty that the Sword responds too.
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I was thinking more about peoples connection to the MacFinn family. I wonder if Tera West intentionally gathered members of the cursed line to form the basis for the Alphas. That means they could also have been potential Loup Garou's. She may have been doing that, teaching them about being a wolf so that they could be better able to control themself as a "Loup Garou" should it jump to them.