But I think the restrictions could have been brought into place after the original maiden, mother, crone mantles had been split into their winter and summer halves.
Just a note, I often type then post then add to so as to ensure my comment is at least posted. So, you may respond prior to my complete comment being viewed. :)It might have been the original mother earth mantle split into the maiden mother crone mantle as known from older mythology which was again split into the six we know now.
I believe there were two original maidens, mothers, crones that shared power that was once unified. I believe there was a WOJ that suggested Winter and Summer triads establishing their base of power rather than the three you suggest. There was a suggestion too that the original Fates were divided into halves but I think that is a bit separate than the individuals participating in creation of base of power with stone table.
Oh, you said mantles not individuals. I think if you go further back in time than what I was talking about above you come to the point you describe below:
I still don't think that the Queens would allow there to be that vulnerability to the succession. During that time of the succession, there would be no Mother, Queen until a successive Lady process could work out. You could save some time by short cutting that restriction and allowing some flexibility in the rules. Another vulnerability would be that if the Outsiders could simply contain or compromise this Lady during that time somehow, they'd stalemate an entire court however briefly til she broke free. I'm thinking she'd could be getting all three mantles at once maybe?
That actually brings us to the next question. Can one of the Queens hold another Queen mantle?
I see it going one of three ways, in order of disruptive:
1) Bottom Up: It is the task of the Lady's Mantle to seek out and Find new candidates, so the Lady Mantle would, in rapid succession, hop through the #1, #2, and #3 candidates until all three Mantle's were filled in order of the suitability of the available candidates. The Greater Mantles, which by definition have more difficulty traversing the Mortal World, would wait in the NN until this process was complete. Least Disruptive.
2) Top Down: The Mothers are described as the Foundation and Bedrock of the Courts, so all other Functions might be on hold until that mantle is filled. The result would be the same Top three most suitable candidates would get the three mantles, but all three would go out seeking in parallel.
3) Total Destruction: It remains possible that the Court structure would not survive the simultaneous death of all three Queens, that at least one is required to anchor the rest. Though, in an emergency the Knight might serve this function, being a literal splinter of the Queens' Power.
Question: in scenario three, assuming the Court structure is simultaneously destroyed, is it possible that the Mantles would revert to the opposing Court's domain? Not to be filled, but for them to administer?I dont think so, based on the idea that the two Courts are so intrinsically connected and Balanced against each other such that /Both/ would come crashing down together. Id imagine it more likely the energy would Scatter, settle in the Table until somebody claimed, or revert to some other unified form the Mantles themselves have once known (ie a re-unified Hecate Mantle).
I think the Mantle can move a few different ways.I dont think #2 holds true anymore. That is what was implied back in SK, but Meave's whole scheme in CD was based on the idea that Mab could NOT control who her mantle went to, even if Mab was the one who killed her. Mabs' only apparent means to influence the Lady is to provide a preferable host in close proximity.
#1. Mother Winter takes the Queen Mantle and gives it to whom she deems fit. (She threatened to eat Harry, and give his Mantle to someone else)
#2. The Queen hands it down to whom she deems fit (usually to Lady most likely)
#3. The Queen dies, and the Mantle seeks the nearest deserving person similar to what happened to Molly.
I dont think #2 holds true anymore. That is what was implied back in SK, but Meave's whole scheme in CD was based on the idea that Mab could NOT control who her mantle went to, even if Mab was the one who killed her. Mabs' only apparent means to influence the Lady is to provide a preferable host in close proximity.
The above would make it impossible for the entire Murphy clan to become the Queens, as Mother Murphy is already ineligible to become Lady.
2) Top Down: The Mothers are described as the Foundation and Bedrock of the Courts, so all other Functions might be on hold until that mantle is filled. The result would be the same Top three most suitable candidates would get the three mantles, but all three would go out seeking in parallel.
Question: in scenario three, assuming the Court structure is simultaneously destroyed, is it possible that the Mantles would revert to the opposing Court's domain? Not to be filled, but for them to administer?
See, I disagree here. I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother. I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles. If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt.I've seen that the set up is akin to a mix of Hecate and The divine trinity and the (iirc) Norse version of the fates. Actually, where in we have the son(daughter)(future), Father(Queen actually)(present) and Holy Spirit(now Mother)(past). The SK descriptions of them are much more accurate in that way.
So, I favor the following:
See, I disagree here. I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother. I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles. If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt.Then we are in a world of hurt every time a lady becomes mother. It is far more likely that as soon as the lady becomes queen she starts procreating.
So, I favor the following:
Does anyone think that may have happened around the Battle of Hastings thing when a starborn was running around?IIRC there was some woj about some love triangle between Oberon, Titania and Mab. If that was just after they both became Queens with a very high procreation drive and the usual possessiveness and jealousy in overdrive for magical beings then the result would have been spectacular.
IIRC there was some woj about some love triangle between Oberon, Titania and Mab. If that was just after they both became Queens with a very high procreation drive and the usual possessiveness and jealousy in overdrive for magical beings then the result would have been spectacular.That was specifically "back around Shakespeare's Day" so it would have been several centuries later.
See, I disagree here. I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother. I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles. If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt.
So, I favor the following:
There seemed to be the suggestion though that the Lady could but in doing so she became Queen. If she didn't become Queen, then yes the mantle would be destroyed. So, the Lady would have to off the Queen in order to procreate. And, we don't know exactly where the prohibition lies. We know Molly can't have sex, but at what point does the mantle get destroyed. Is it at sex, at conception, at having birth. I mean we know the defense mechanism arises at the sex stage but if you can somehow bypass that...
I think I need to see the exact language Mab used in Molly's short story.
If the Lady offs the Queen so she can proceate, what do you think the Queen mantle does while waiting for the Lady to do so?
"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me. "Maiden, Mother, and Crone. You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear." The mantle protected itself--as it must.So, the literal and precise point at which the mantle would be destroyed is for the Lady to become a mother. If the Lady can become Queen up to immediately prior to giving birth by the Queen dying by the Lady's hand direct, indirect, or neither, then it could be possible to maintain a pregnancy up until the time immediately prior to birth. She may even be able to overcome the prohibition against sex without destroying the mantle. To tie this in with my Murphy/Mab pregnant with Marcone or something similar, I could see Murphy gaining the Lady mantle and then having a set point of time in which she'd have to arrange her ascension to Queen, risk destroying the mantle, or giving up the Lady mantle etc before she had her child.
"What?"
She tilted her head and stared at me. "It is all within the law. I suggest you spend a few hours each daymeditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."
I think the presence of the Queen mantle in the Lady is necessary for the Lady to procreate. As a stronger mantle , it can override the Lady mantle defenses and push the Lady mantle out at the exact moment of conception.I think the it's absolutely necessary for the Lady to acquire the Queen mantle to give birth. At which point the Lady is considered a mother by the mantle and would be subsequently destroyed is the pivotal question.
When Mother Summer abdicated, do you really envision that she had to coordinate with the Queen and Lady to make sure the Lady became a mother at the precise moment of abdication?See this is where you have my words and their meaning confused. I said the Queen should need to be a mother prior to assuming the Mother mantle (the part where I suggest the Lady being a mother I'm talking about the case whereby all three Queen mantles are up for grabs and a Lady could push the mantles up to the Queen, but the Mother mantle requires that she be a mother). I didn't say she needed to be a mother to be the Queen. I think the Mother mantle is one such mantle that in an extenuating circumstance in which the succession is not a mother then the mantle may jump ship to reach out to a vessel that is. This is me thinking 'should' not 'would' type argument. Again, I'm arguing a case whereby how it is spelled out within the "law" differs from how we view the 'rules' to be considering fae speak by the Queens and by Jim and less than accurate first person views of those participating within the books.
I do not think you have to be a mother before acquiring the queens mantle. I think the mantle takes care of that, it will push you to become one.The issue isn't to acquire the Queen mantle. The issue is for a lower Queen to acquire the Mother mantle. I argue the Mother mantle requires you to be a mother. And on the time element we are talking about worst case scenario where essentially all three Queen positions are vacant at the same time. There is no time for mantles to 'take care of that to push you to become one" in the case of pushing you to the Mother position which is what we are largely arguing about. The Queen mantle really isn't the issue as it's a bridging mantle that gives time to go from one to the other. But, as I said before, the extreme case in which we are talking about is the filling of the all three Queen positions and in particular the Mother position without having a qualified actual 'mother.'
You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear."
This is actually sort of reminding me of Jim's other series.There is an obvious flaw in that. If the mother dies unexpectedly her mantle is taken by the lady who is not a mother at that point. So being a mother is not a prerequisite for the queens mantle, you become one after you get that mantle. There is no need to complicate things.
I mean we have Hive Queens that have conditions set upon them regarding procreation etc. As to pregnancy and the hero, we have the main character's magical ability stunted and himself camouflaged by his mom so that others don't learn he is the successor to the throne. This could be similar to my theory on Marcone descending from Murphy/Mab. We find out she gave birth to him and had him placed at a certain place in nevernever that had a different flow of time whereby he'd have an actual present life around the time of his parents. So, his parents are kept secret, his identity is further complicated by his complex origin in the timeline. Etc, etc.
That is going a bit off topic but there could be parallels between the Codex Alera series and this one with regard to familial connections, queen succession rules and procreation conditions, etc.
There is an obvious flaw in that. If the mother dies unexpectedly her mantle is taken by the lady who is not a mother at that point. So being a mother is not a prerequisite for the queens mantle, you become one after you get that mantle. There is no need to complicate things.
Changing mantle for the lady is just like growing up and the children will come soon enough.
If all three mantles are free the mantles might look for candidates themselves but it seems more logical that the lady looks for candidates and passes them through. One person would get old pretty fast but she can stay old for quite some time. Until the next crisis.
If all three mantles are free the mantles might look for candidates themselvesThis is what I argue would happen. And what I argue would happen to the Mother mantle should the Queen not be a mother. The Lady is inherently prohibited from being a mother as that would be an instance in which the mantle would be destroyed. It's a complication outside the generic rules we know of so far. We have precedent though whereby the mantles aren't funneled through the Lady, namely the time when they were created.
In CD Mab explains Harry shouldn't kill her because Molly will have enough difficulty with the Lady mantle without being handed hers.
Cold Case shows us the Lady mantle strives to prevent conception, rather than just forcing miscarriages. The above suggests that the definition of Mother requires conception, not birth. Likely, the Lady conceives around the time she gets the Queen mantle.
That really isn't the comment to be quoted from though I get your point but it addresses other statements I have made other than that one.But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.
Again I argue otherwise, I think the Mother mantle requires one to be a mother. I mean her title is MOTHER Summer or Winter, I think that means something regarding the mantle. If you can't meet that requirement then you're not eligible despite teh Lady=>Queen=>Mother rule. I think that succession rule is in effect as long as the proper conditions are satisfied whereby Lady!=a mother and Mother=mother. It hasn't been spelled out but I believe we will find out later there is a particular rule regarding the Mother mantle similar to how we found out there was a particular rule regarding the Lady mantle.
This is what I argue would happen. And what I argue would happen to the Mother mantle should the Queen not be a mother. The Lady is inherently prohibited from being a mother as that would be an instance in which the mantle would be destroyed. It's a complication outside the generic rules we know of so far. We have precedent though whereby the mantles aren't funneled through the Lady, namely the time when they were created.
But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.
It's been inferred that Molly would become Queen. Leah is second to Mab. She's cunning, dangerous, and ambitious. Don't be shocked if Leah has plans to get Mab's Mantle.I used the names to make it more clear but the same thing happened when Mab became queen of course.
I used the names to make it more clear but the same thing happened when Mab became queen of course.
Yes that's the traditional way it goes. However there are probably other ways. For example Sidhe go out on Halloween to gather more power. If Leah for example killed Mab, in my opinion she'd probably get that power because she would have displayed that she deserved it, by taking it.The point is no complicated constructions with pregnant ladies before they become mother protected by the queens mantle or whatever needed. The standard method works.
Also Mab may have been the one to kill the previous Queen, earning the Mantle. I don't recall if it's been said how exactly she got it. Maeve planned on taking the Mantle from Mab.
the Lady conceives around the time she gets the Queen mantle.And i'd bet part of the ceremony for taking the queens mantle is the WK takes you again. That the Knight's mantle was basically reborn through sex is telling, so is the fact Harry as WK knows he's physically stronger than the Lady and the Lady's defensive measures are purely a physical reaction, not magical per say. So the Queen is the queen because she's done it with the Knight(high technicality, the WK mantle is what was birthed there in the first place)... and the Mother is the Mother because their 'knight' gets birthed into reality as it's own source, no longer based upon reflecting the queen.(see Kringle, Gatekeeper, ect)
is why sex was part of the ritual for Mab to make Harry the WK, because it is a tribute to the ritual that the WK makes the Queen.
But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.
The point is no complicated constructions with pregnant ladies before they become mother protected by the queens mantle or whatever needed. The standard method works.This point was to test how far a lady could go before her mantle was unmade. The unmade moment is defined by mab to be for the lady to be a mother, which is why I asked at what point did it begin:birth or conception.
Agreed.There is probably some confusion here because Mab is a mother but not the mother and I do not refer to the mothers as queens.
This doesn't touch upon the Mother mantles which I've largely been arguing about. Simply put, the Mother mantels as in Mother Winter Mother Summer and not the lower queens of which you are referring to, require their holder to be a mother. This is symmetric with the lady mantels that require their holder to be a nonmother.
This point was to test how far a lady could go before her mantle was unmade. The unmade moment is defined by mab to be for the lady to be a mother, which is why I asked at what point did it begin:birth or conception.The mantle would recognise a pregnacy and it would be one of the many reasons not to consider her a suitable host. And if somehow forced to take a pregnant Murphy as a host considering the violent nature of the mantle and the pre christian ethics of the thing in general I think a miscarriage would be the next step.
The next point was to assert a restriction upon the Mother summer/winter mantle to obtain an actual mother. The queen mantle wouldn't have any such restriction as she is a bridge between two mutually exclusive states. (I argue)
Final point is to attempt to insert a Murphy pregnancy in a time travel plot to see if that could still qualify her as a lady, a nonmother, at least up until she gave birth.
I like groinkick suggestion.
In short, I'd argue the mantle could not cause a miscarriage. This circumstance, if it hadn't already caused the Lady mantle's destruction, would be inside the mantles defenses and prohibited by law that prevents the Queens from killing mortals.
If a fetus is sufficiently mortal to prevent a queen from killing it, then it is also sufficiently mortal to make the queen a mother.I don't think it's as black and white as that just yet, there is still a gray area.
This is the definition of mother:Notice that this defintion of mother doesn't include conception as only defining a mother, there needs to be an actual birth.
a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth.
mortal:
subject to death; having a transitory life:
all mortal creatures.
If a fetus is sufficiently mortal to prevent a queen from killing it, then it is also sufficiently mortal to make the queen a mother.That is based on a Christian definition of human starting at conception but the mantle is not christian. It probably does not see the foetus as a mortal human that can not be killed.
That is why sex was part of the ritual for Mab to make Harry the WK, because it is a tribute to the ritual that the WK makes the Queen.
The other question is whether the WK can always have sex with the Lady (which would add a new twist to why Marve put some much effort into seducing Harry in CD) or whether he needs the Queen mantle to overcome the defenses.
The above preserves the rule of Maiden/Mother while cleanly allowing the transfer of the mantle down the line.
Yeah, we got one point out of the way.
Now, I'm focusing on the other point. If somehow the Lady mantle is allowed to take a pregnant Lady (not considered mother yet) I don't think the mantle would take action against the fetus as that would probably violate the prohibition regarding the Queens not killing mortals. I see the defense mechanism depicted in Molly's encounter with Ramirez as the first defense mechanism we've seen. If somehow it gets bypassed, and the mantle isn't destroyed by the Lady becoming just short of a operative definition of 'mother', then I think the pregnancy would get inside the mantles defenses such that it couldn't touch it. The mantle would then push the Lady toward becoming Queen at all costs. It wins either way by having the Lady vacate its mantle. Lady dies in attempt, Lady mantle passes. Lady becomes Queen, Lady mantle passes. Each of which would need to occur before 'birth' if that is the definition of 'mother.' This is entirely mute however if conception is considered adequate by the mantle to be a 'mother.' This then would allow for possible sex between the Lady and another with the exception that if such a conception occurred as a result, fulfilling the 'mother' definition, this would then destroy the Lady mantle.
In short, I'd argue the mantle could not cause a miscarriage. This circumstance, if it hadn't already caused the Lady mantle's destruction, would be inside the mantles defenses and prohibited by law that prevents the Queens from killing mortals.
Now, the question becomes if on the off chance this may be accurate, would it be at all relevant. That answer at this point is a probable no. It, in my theories, mainly applies to Murphy and on the chance she TT's into the past pregnant with say Harry's child, who may be Marcone. All of these Wag's are increasingly unlikely when combined together. They also require a more complex storyline to back them.
My opinion is that if a woman is pregnant, the Mantle will not take her. Mantles appear to be black, and white. Outside of Nemesis manipulation the Mantles seem to be unchangeable. I don't think the Mantle is capable of going to someone who is pregnant, or ever was pregnant.
"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me. "Maiden, Mother, and Crone. You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear." The mantle protected itself--as it must.
"What?"
She tilted her head and stared at me. "It is all within the law. I suggest you spend a few hours each day meditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."
To me, "becoming a mother" is the case which is MOST incompatible with the Lady mantle. So, there seems like circumstances could get stretched to an extreme point before the nuclear point is reached. It's that stretch which is what I'm exploring.
That is based on a Christian definition of human starting at conception but the mantle is not christian. It probably does not see the foetus as a mortal human that can not be killed.
I don't know the specifics of the timing for what is a mother in the DV, that is a question for JB. I'm just arguing that it raidem's argument is internally inconsistent because it is twisting a definition to suit a particular purpose, rather than picking a definition and then applying it logically in all situations.
I'm just pointing at that you can't have it both ways. If raidem wants to argue that the Lady can get pregnant but can't give birth, it is inconsistent to argue the mantle couldn't force a miscarriage to prevent birth.Oh, I see where you may be arguing from.
And, I'm arguing it is internally consistent as I just outlined previously based on the words definitions.That is your definition of human. The problem is that the definition of human is flexible as shown by the different definitions used by different groups in the books. The white councils definition differs from the knights of the cross definition. Mab thought Thomas was human enough for her purpose etc.
mother is defined as having given birth
mortal is subject to death.
human being applies both to the unborn fetus and born fetus.
If the Queen can't kill human being, then she can't kill the unborn fetus. This isn't yet a condition of 'mother' which I'm arguing from.And even if it is, the foetus is clearly attached to the court so different rules apply.
Toward your point there are two rules in play not just one to which you allude to which is why my argument remains consistent. The 'mother' rule is distinct from the Queen can't kill 'mortal' rule. They have different definitions but have some overlap but not in the case in which is being argued: that of the unborn fetus.Oh, I see where you may be arguing from.This is too mechanistic. The mantle is life and has a certain awareness. It is not a castle wall it will keep pressure on to change the situation and killing the foetus is the most logical way to do it. It would probably do so immediately after taking the host when the host is still unconscious.
Let me be clear on one point that may explain my approach. I do argue "that the Lady can get pregnant but can't give birth." I also realize the Lady has a defense mechanism to prevent sex, which then prevents conception, which prevents birth. I view the defense mechanism against sex as the wall of a castle, once you are able somehow to get past it you're potentially inside the mantles defenses whereby conception is possible. Should conception occur, you are now pregnant. By virtue of rules regarding the Queens killing mortal humans, the Lady mantle may make no attempt at this point to kill the fetus. Its primary defense mechanism, the wall, is irrelevant and now the mantle is in overdrive to push the Lady to become the Queen. This drive then becomes the second line of defense, the Lady will succeed in becoming Queen prior to giving birth therefore it is a nonissue for the Lady mantle or the Lady dies in the attempt, the Lady mantle passes, therefore it again is a nonissue for the lady mantle. Only when the Lady mantle is trapped when the Lady gives birth is the Lady mantle destroyed in the process.
So, given my argument above, I have shown a internally consistent way in which the mantle lives with the condition of pregnancy and the drive to protect itself. I believe you assumed that I asserted no further self-defense mechanism past the no-sex mechanism. I didn't. Again, the self-defense mechanism then becomes unseat the Queen at all costs prior to birth. This could then allow an additional pressure taking place within faerie back in the time when both Queens died 1000+ years ago. The ladies were also on a timetable.
And even if it is, the foetus is clearly attached to the court so different rules apply.The previously stated "what the mantle considers not killlable" still applies.
It takes the host if it finds the host suetable (which a pregnant whoman is anyway) and if it is not suetable it will make it suetable.If it is as you argue, coupled with an idea someone else suggested that the Knight could impregnate the Lady, then a impregnated Lady may be allowed by the defense system.
Nicely laid out. It paints a different picture than mine though I disagree with the conclusions.If the knight could Fix would have done so and Lilly would have gotten her family. Maeve would have been a different person as well.
I agree it depends on what the mantle considers not killable. I simply stated my opinion on the matter based on some definitions.
The previously stated "what the mantle considers not killlable" still applies.
If it is as you argue, coupled with an idea someone else suggested that the Knight could impregnate the Lady, then a impregnated Lady may be allowed by the defense system.
This could be a case in which Murphy impregnated by the Knight, in a TT event, attracts the Lady mantle under right circumstance. The defense mechanism allows the fetus through. This combined with my idea regarding Lady mantle being preserved up until such time she gives birth then would allow for a Murphy to be pregnant with Harry's child, TT into the past, acquire the Lady mantle, keep it until she can acquire the Queen mantle, then give birth. I guess that would be how I'd have to fit this piece into the story for Murphy/Mab/Harry/Marcone to work. It would be much easier if she wasn't pregnant but I like the idea that she is.
If the knight could Fix would have done so and Lilly would have gotten her family. Maeve would have been a different person as well.I agree on second thought. To keep arguing the Knight could impregnate the Lady is a fools errand. That is joshed. It may be possible though for the Knight to have sex but not conceive with the Lady, or as was suggested the defense mechanism takes care of the fertilized egg.
It would not make sense to me. The knight can not.I've slight amended the following and pointed out that it is a slightly different case than what was suggested previously. This isn't Knight having sex with Lady so the knight can not doesn't really apply.
This is a case in which the Knight impregnates a non Lady Murphy, who later gets the Lady mantle. And, because the fetus was conceived by the Knight (or per Mother Winter's orders), the Lady mantle allows fetus through due to this special case for whatever reason. This combined with my idea regarding Lady mantle being preserved up until such time she gives birth then it would allow for a Murphy to be pregnant with Harry's child, TT into the past, acquire the Lady mantle, keep it until she can acquire the Queen mantle, then give birth. I guess that would be how I'd have to fit this piece into the story for Murphy/Mab/Harry/Marcone to work. It would be much easier if she wasn't pregnant but I like the idea that she is.
I think being sexually frustrated is part of the Sidhe Lady experience so a knight loophole is out of question.Na see I figured this out too talking on facebook with others. It's summers opposition to Winter that changes the role and the outcome, the Winter Consort is meant to take the Lady, But Summer is inherently different. It focus's more upon the Husbandry aspect in the knight. The way Fix doted on her, followed her commands with a genuine affection, worried over her when she was emotional even. All the signs are there. So idk what precise things the Summer Lady has going for her celibacy. But the Knight wouldn't push. Notice also such suggestions are what drives him into a heat fighting Dresden. Take a look again at the previous Knight, Reul and his methods of protecting and shielding others. His drives are different.
To keep arguing the Knight could impregnate the Lady is a fools errand.*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.
Na see I figured this out too talking on facebook with others. It's summers opposition to Winter that changes the role and the outcome, the Winter Consort is meant to take the Lady, But Summer is inherently different. It focus's more upon the Husbandry aspect in the knight. The way Fix doted on her, followed her commands with a genuine affection, worried over her when she was emotional even. All the signs are there. So idk what precise things the Summer Lady has going for her celibacy. But the Knight wouldn't push. Notice also such suggestions are what drives him into a heat fighting Dresden. Take a look again at the previous Knight, Reul and his methods of protecting and shielding others. His drives are different.Of course the expression is different. Lilly was frustrated about not being able to get children, start and raise a family. Maeve was just frustrated sexually.
*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.
QuoteTo keep arguing the Knight could impregnate the Lady is a fools errand.*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.
*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.Transformation, Our prophet Einstein says so. If it didn't realign the courts directly it would transform the Mantle from it's current formation... in essence giving birth to a new form anyway.
From the perspective of the destruction of the Lady mantle, the Knight could possible impregnate the Lady as long as she didn't give birth. Since Lily and Maeve didn't give birth, given the continued existence of their mantle, I think we can assume the Knight didn't impregnate either. I think it may be possible for the Lady to push the envelope to such a degree that they could have sex with and, if so, get impregnated by the Knight.
Excellent point.
Just note that only "becoming a mother" destroys the Lady mantle. We don't exactly know what the definition of mother is, though I've argued it is giving birth as opposed to simply being pregnant. So the Lady mantle could coexist with a pregnant Lady but not with one that gives birth.
I saw that you already participated in and read the comment I had posted previously. My apologies if I'm being repetitive.
Based on the extreme reaction from the Mantle I'd say that even being pregnant is enough. If not it would just destroy the fetus, abort the pregnancy or something like that.
how the mantle would be destroyed I wish to refute entirelyI never meant to say that the Lady mantle's power becomes nonexistent. Like Mother Winter said and you referred to, Einstein has the equation E=mc^2. Energy changes form and isn't destroyed so to would occur with the mantle. That said, we have Mab's words to contend with.
This is why I ask about the nebulous nature of your theories. When one point is made against them(that the knight actually could take the Lady.. or that the separation of the lady from the queens power was taking place in CD) they simply change that bit while resisting the original premise from being faulty. It's like fighting the Dark Arts professor Snape! Argue(debate, whichever you prefer) this one with me now, here, without avoiding points you don't like in favor of 'how you can make it work' for you. That just sits too close to fitting facts to suite the theory for me. Your making assumptions on when and how the mantle would be destroyed I wish to refute entirely.I've addressed most of this already I think. I recopied it and replying to it to say that it is an approach I'm taking to have more eyeballs and brains consider issues that I'm considering. I think my ideas are better for it if I ask people what they think and how would this work. Then I see if I like it and it fits with how I view things. People suggested that the Lady mantle kills off the fertilized egg/embryo/fetus if it could get to that point. It was an idea that didn't fit well with me, so I suggested that either it had passed through the mantles defenses or was a special case because of a knight. So, there are these ideas that wouldn't have come to me if I hadn't asked people to play with some of the setups I had created. I think most know these setups/contraptions are geared to my Murphy/Mab theory and they participate with me even if they don't agree with or find merit in the theory. I like their input nevertheless, as well as yours.
Her throat. I had wanted it for something, I thought. But now I just wanted. That would be how to do it. Set my teeth on her throat while I took her. If she struggled—or didn’t struggle enough—I would be able to start ripping my way toward the blood. “This is how it is supposed to be,” Maeve purred. “Knight and Lady, together. Fucking like animals. Taking what we please.” Her mouth turned up into a smile. “I thought you’d never let it in. Let it in deep, where I could touch.” Her lovely face took on a feigned, youthful innocence. “But I can touch it now, can’t I?” I growled. I’d forgotten how to do whatever that other thing was. All I could think about was the need. Claim her as a mate. Take whatever I pleased from her. Make her mine. Except . . . Wait.
This is evidence to support the idea that the Knight can in fact have sex with the Lady. Or in the case Maeve was lying...
That isn't a lie. Maeve is stating her honest opinion. she believes that the Knight and lady should be together f****** like animals. Just because the reality is that can't happen, doesn't make her opinion a lie.I think it does, at least based on how we saw Mantle Knowledge being conveyed to Molly in Cold Case; it seemed to work kind of like Intellectus where as soon as she considers the issue she'd be Informed of the truth of it. If we were talking cosmic knowledge that the Mantle might not know anything about (like the whole Mab thing at the end of GS) it might be different, but here we are talking about the Mantle's own functions.
I think it does, at least based on how we saw Mantle Knowledge being conveyed to Molly in Cold Case; it seemed to work kind of like Intellectus where as soon as she considers the issue she'd be Informed of the truth of it. If we were talking cosmic knowledge that the Mantle might not know anything about (like the whole Mab thing at the end of GS) it might be different, but here we are talking about the Mantle's own functions.
Also, I HIGHLY doubt the idea of banging the Knight never occurred to her with any of the past knights.
She doesn't need to believe that she can have sex the Knight in order for that statement to be true, she just needs to believe that the rule prohibiting her from doing so is stupid.I have to be misunderstanding you because this sounds entirely counter to the whole "Fae Cannot Lie" rule. She (physically) has no control over her words, against the mantle anyway. Even if she disagreed with the Mantle's rules/boundaries/etc it would still be entirely capable of simply Replacing the words she wanted to speak with one's it prefers, as it did with Molly.
I have to be misunderstanding you because this sounds entirely counter to the whole "Fae Cannot Lie" rule. She (physically) has no control over her words, against the mantle anyway. Even if she disagreed with the Mantle's rules/boundaries/etc it would still be entirely capable of simply Replacing the words she wanted to speak with one's it prefers, as it did with Molly.
She can think it's stupid all she want, but short of Nemfection that is not enough for her to knowingly speak an actual Falsehood.
She didn't say a knowing falsehood. She did not say the Knight and Lady can have sex. She used the words "supposed to" - which are a value judgment, not a statement of fact. It's actually a perfect example of how Fae can be devious and manipulative without lying.Ah. OK, thanks, I am up to speed. What I am trying to say is that I do not think that the Winter Lady Mantle would let Maeve (absent Nemfection) make, or at least actually Speak, Value statements disagreeing with the Natural Order or Winter Law. Not purely because of the Fae's racial inability to speak a known falsehood, but because of the much more stringent and overriding responses we saw in Cold Case, where the Mantle would simply replace the words she intended to speak with other ones it was more comfortable with. The Lying thing can be circumvented by clever phrasing alone, but I think this gets more into the tangled interweaving of Bargains and Obligation, and in particular whatever the actual force behind Winter Law is.
Maeve can lie and her mantle murdering Harry is exactly what she wants.But she can't make the mantle lie to Harry. He knows he can take her, and his Mantle knows it would rather do that than try to kill her.
But she can't make the mantle lie to Harry. He knows he can take her, and his Mantle knows it would rather do that than try to kill her.I do not think the mantle knows. What the mantle knows the knight can learn and some things are not meant to be known by mortals.
It can be used however to support the idea that the Knight and Lady can have sex. True, there is still the argument that can be made against it. Now, if she in fact meant "supposed to" knowing it is in fact an occurrence, then it comes that much closer to a lie. So, I agree with your statement that it isn't a lie, and it largely is an opinion but it doesn't preclude it from being a fact that the knight and lady can have sex. They definitely in Maeve's opinion should want to.
In any event, the point-at least in another thread-was that Maeve was trying to co-opt Harry for her purposes. Most likely to aid her in freeing the Sleepers prior to banefire. I forget to which purpose I place certain posts under specific threads. This one was the knight have sex with lady idea.
I do not think the mantle knows. What the mantle knows the knight can learn and some things are not meant to be known by mortals.That doesn't really explain anything... it's actually confusing to me lol.
It is just the knights mantle meant for mortals.
Im not arguing against that. In fact, see my post #30, as I think I'm the one to first raise the possibility of WK/Lady sex in this thread.Because who Maeve is. Listen to Sarissa, she seduces people to let the mantle kill them. It probably turns her on. Of course she does not need to do it that way but she wants to do it that way.
There are really 3 possibilities 1) they can't have sex (but then why seduce him - Maeve seemed strong enough to take Harry without needing the mantle defenses),
2) they can always have sex (but then why didn't she get pregnant with Slade and become Queen)That would take away the sexual frustration and I think that is a mandatory aspect of the job, maybe even part of her power. Part of the balance anyway.
or 3) Nemesis allows Maeve to have sex in addition to lying (but why not just get pregnant and destroy the mantle).Doing that would have taken away much of Maeves motivation to get rid of Mab so I do not think Nemesis would do so even if it could.
That doesn't really explain anything... it's actually confusing to me lol.Molly can not talk about her not being able to have sex. It is part of fairy mistique and so on. If Molly can not talk about it the winter knight mantle can not know about it because the knight should not know about it.
Molly can not talk about her not being able to have sex. It is part of fairy mistique and so on. If Molly can not talk about it the winter knight mantle can not know about it because the knight should not know about it.Logically speaking this is not 100% true, given the transactional nature of the Fae and their restrictions regarding Debt. To them there is a vast difference between "she cannot Tell because Mortals are not meant to Know it, ever" and "She cannot Tell because she is does not have Clearance to simply Give Away that sort of very powerful Knowledge".
So the mantle telling Harry to take Maeve proves nothing.
Logically speaking this is not 100% true, given the transactional nature of the Fae and their restrictions regarding Debt. To them there is a vast difference between "she cannot Tell because Mortals are not meant to Know it, ever" and "She cannot Tell because she is does not have Clearance to simply Give Away that sort of very powerful Knowledge".Sure but some things are clearly in the first category and Molly owes Harry enough to tell him some things in the second category if needed.
I would think that only a direct and specific question asked by someone that the mantle-bearer owes a debt to would allow that question to be answered.Or maybe not. Moly was quite clear that she could not tell things.
Molly can not talk about her not being able to have sex. It is part of fairy mistique and so on. If Molly can not talk about it the winter knight mantle can not know about it because the knight should not know about it.Well, she couldn't tell Carlos about it. But Mab could tell Molly about it. Molly could ask Mab about it. Unless I'm forgetting something from the short story, nothing makes it seem like she couldn't tell someone in the same Court, say, the Winter Knight what's up.
So the mantle telling Harry to take Maeve proves nothing.
Well, she couldn't tell Carlos about it. But Mab could tell Molly about it. Molly could ask Mab about it. Unless I'm forgetting something from the short story, nothing makes it seem like she couldn't tell someone in the same Court, say, the Winter Knight what's up.
Well, she couldn't tell Carlos about it. But Mab could tell Molly about it. Molly could ask Mab about it. Unless I'm forgetting something from the short story, nothing makes it seem like she couldn't tell someone in the same Court, say, the Winter Knight what's up.Molly is the winter lady, Harry is a mortal.
Especially because the rest of that dream, as I recall, is without the rape/murder/dominate urges that the Mantle gives
You know, I never picked up on that absence. It's weird, because you'd think that the Harry gets to gettin' it is that dream, yet it's totally gone. Is that a byproduct of the dream, the strength of his affection for Murphy, or would the Mantle just be like "K, I got you here finally, do your stuff"?It is one of the signs that Harry had a far better grip on the mantle in skin game.
Molly is the winter lady, Harry is a mortal.So? They're still both part of the Court.
You know, I never picked up on that absence. It's weird, because you'd think that the Harry gets to gettin' it is that dream, yet it's totally gone. Is that a byproduct of the dream, the strength of his affection for Murphy, or would the Mantle just be like "K, I got you here finally, do your stuff"?
It is one of the signs that Harry had a far better grip on the mantle in skin game.True too.
I've argued that in Skin Game the dream where Harry has sex with Murphy is Harry tapping into Mab's dream or connection with her. That dream follows Harry's dream with Molly.
It's also a hint that Murphy=Mab.
"I've argued a thing" doesn't really provide evidence that it's true.Just insert the qualifiers to make my statement consistent with an opinion. Most of the things I state are opinions. Just take it as that. And can we quit arguing about what people say as fact or opinion. Simply take what we write as opinion and leave it at that. It's the approach I largely take when I read what other people write. Now, if it proves true that indeed Murphy=Mab, that statement becomes close to a fact. Something that can be determined by simply asking Jim 'did you intend this to be a hint that Murphy=Mab." If he answers yes, my statement once my opinion is a fact but wasn't found to be such until later. If no, then it was not ever a fact.
So? They're still both part of the Court.But Harry is mortal
I'm not saying even that its a sure thing. Just that there's enough difference that the rules might not be the same for everyone. Hell, maybe even Molly could tell someone next time that she can't go through it, or at least stop before the Mantle stops her, so she doesn't put someone in a hospital.
“Can’t, literally,” she said cheerfully and waved an airy hand. “Faerie mystique and all that.”