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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on December 12, 2017, 02:36:08 PM
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First off the T-Shirt:
The Tweet
https://twitter.com/PatrickRothfuss/status/874393135589326852
I'll include the T-shirt image separate from the tweet after I switch to Chrome.
T-shirt has symbols...Peace, and ?, maybe mjolnir or something.
It reads...
McAnnaly's Pub
Official neutral territory under the Unseelie Accords since 1994.
This coupled with the fact that the Unseelie Incursion in 1994 caused or was involved in the vanishing of Milwaukee makes me believe that Mac played a part in this event somehow. We have P-WOJ that Mac completed a midlevel questline that Mab herself created and that this led to Mac being granted neutral territory under the accords. The P-WOJ established that someone with many contacts within the supernatural world could possibly complete the questline. (P-WOJ paraphrased WOJ)
On another note, I'd say that the T-shirt suggests that the appropriate language of the sign for McAnnaly's Pub is ACCORDED NEUTRAL TERRITORY and not "GROUND". That is if there is anything significant between the two.
One thing I would ask of you is to look at the T-shirt and try to figure out the second symbol at the top left of the logo. The first I found is indeed a Peace symbol in Norse symbology. I had a hard time finding the 2nd symbol but it looks like a dual headed hammer or axe.
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Try googling Labrys for the symbol, seems similar.
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Looks like it might be the rune for "love." I think it's "peace and love," which I find hilarious.
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So we know from the T-shirt, if it's WOJ, that McAnnaly's Pub opened 1994.
Looking at that 2nd symbol, it is either Mjolnir or Labrys.
So, Peace and then a symbol of war.
It may, if Jim had a hand in creating the T-shirt, be a hint as to Mac's identity.
If the second symbol is Mjolnir, then it is likely he may be Thor or someone associated with it, his descendants.
If the second symbol is Labrys, then we need to research who identifies with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys
In the Near East and other parts of the region, eventually, axes of this sort are often wielded by male divinities and appear to become symbols of the thunderbolt,[9] a symbol often found associated with the axe symbol. In Labraunda of Caria the double-axe accompanies the storm-god Zeus Labraundos. Similar symbols have been found on plates of Linear pottery culture in Romania.[10] The double-axe is associated with the Hurrian god of sky and storm Teshub. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun.[11] Both are depicted holding a triple thunderbolt in one hand, and a double axe in the other hand.[12] Similarly, Zeus throws his Keravnos to bring storm. The labrys, or pelekys, is the double axe Zeus uses to invoke storm, and the relative modern Greek word for lightning is star-axe (ἀστροπελέκι astropeleki)[13] The worship of it was kept up in the Greek island of Tenedos and in several cities in the south-west of former Hellenic Asia Minor, and it appears in later historical times in the cult of the thunder god of Asia Minor (Zeus Labrayndeus).
Based off that, the Labrys are often wielded by gods associated with thunder, storm, lightening etc.
The first symbol though is undoubtedly of Norse origin though there may be other cultures where it exists and represents peace too.
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One interpretation is Minoan, a society that predates Greek that worshiped a Great Goddess.
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Wikipedia though says there is no evidence that links Labrys name with the double ax on Crete, or associated with Minoans. There is a reference to a labyrinth on Crete, but the Wiki says more on the subject.
As mentioned, the labrys is often associated with the Minoans. There is no doubt that, on Crete, the double axe was an important cultic symbol.[8] However, there is no evidence to link the word labrys with this Minoan symbol.
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If Jim participated in the T-shirt's creation, as the Pub was identified as opening in 1994, I believe there is now evidence to suggest that Mac is a god of thunder, lightening etc. If there is a strong link between Mac and storms, then it would be interesting to see Mac and attunement to what storms mean. For example, he would be aware of say a Dead Beat Darkhallow storm, or someone tapping the storm in Storm Front, or etc.
It also fits with us being introduced to Mac in Storm Front.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor
This has a picture of Thor and Mjolnir.
Zeus Labrandos ("Zeus of Labraunda"): Worshiped at Caria, depicted with a double-edged axe (labrys), a Hellenization of the Hurrian weather god Teshub
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I actually now think it's Dagaz intersected by Isaz.
Dagaz: http://runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/dagaz
Isaz: http://runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/isa
According to what I've read, especially on the above site, Dagaz is associated with experience, awakening, enlightenment, and so forth. Isaz (written there as Isa, though I see both everywhere) is associated with ice, stasis, self-control, and self-preservation. When intersected, it could mean something about a realization that stasis is necessary, or supporting the status quo, or neutrality. Or, as Mac puts it, "out."
Haven't looked at runes since Beowulf back in college. Maybe I should reach out to one of my old professors.
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I'm kinda surprised it links him, even vaguely to Norse of all things...
The problem with identifying him is they intentionally put as many references into Mac as any one person can handle lol.
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It was a quick browze of similar symbols. Seemed like it may be connected to Hecate.
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Did WOJ establish that the pub opened in 1994? I didn't think that it was every mentioned in the books. All I can remember Harry saying is that the pub is a fixture in the magic community. The t-shirt says Official Neutral Territory under the Unseelie Accords since 1994. To me that means 1994 is when he gained Neutral status not when he opened shop in Chicago. I think it is likely that the Unseelie Incursion combined with things heating up in Chicago prompted Mac to get the pub declared neutral.
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I kinda figure that the bar was set up between 1994 and 2000.
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I think this is an intentional clue for PT coming soon. Mac's is going to Host the Meetings or something. If last time made a necessary excuse for mutual ground, i'd imagine it's so it's available in the future.
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I think this is an intentional clue for PT coming soon. Mac's is going to Host the Meetings or something. If last time made a necessary excuse for mutual ground, i'd imagine it's so it's available in the future.
One can hope.
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Yeah, the T-shirt suggests that the Pub became neutral territory under unseelie accords in 1994. So, it could have opened then. Or it could have been open, and then later received neutral territory status. It is a point that I'm uncertain on. Of course, this relies on the T-shirt being WOJ, but I think it most likely is given Jim Butcher tweeting it and the T-shirt stating things that really isn't spelled out in the books.
Kindler, I like your suggestion on the 2nd Rune.
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What about the spades?
Playing cards have a seriously long and weird history. I don't know much about the symbols behind the modern ones. I know the King of Spades is supposed to be King David. Something about spades representing the warrior class sounds familiar, but I can't be sure. Hearts were the Holy Grail, if I remember correctly. Anyone think it might be significant, or am I reaching?
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The spade represents a leaf of the "cosmic" tree, and thus life. Along with its companion suit, clubs, spades represent fall and winter and the power of darkness. In the Tarot, they symbolize intellect, action, air, and death.
The symbols on the T-shirt were all Spades.
...These are the Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs and Spades of the English and French Packs. Cœurs, or Hearts represented the Church, the Holy men or virtue; Carreaux, or Diamonds were arrowheads, symbolic of the vassals from whom the archers and bowmen were drawn; Trefles or Clubs, deriving from clover, represented the shepherds or husbandman; and Piques, the points of lances – Spades, the knights themselves.
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Was the feeling that Harry had the first time he entered Mac's bar similar to the first time he stepped on DR?
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Was the feeling that Harry had the first time he entered Mac's bar similar to the first time he stepped on DR?
That's not shown, as far as I know. Mac's first appearance is in Storm Front, and Harry describes the bar the same way he always does (to the point that I skip the descriptions now). Harry was already a customer, so that wasn't the first time he was there. I don't think we see that.
Do the comics have Harry showing up there for the first time?
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Per Harry in SF, Mac's pub opened a few years before Harry got to Chicago.
According to the timeline ....
5 BSF: At age 20, Harry arrives in Chicago. Before he goes to work at Ragged Angel, he takes a number of jobs, one of which was as a dance partner with a senior-citizen organization.
~5 BSF: Alicia Carpenter is born
4-6 BSF: The most recent version of the Unseelie Accords is signed 10-12 years before Proven Guilty [PG 127]. Thanks to Tepick! I wonder if this coincides with the Unseelie Incursion of 1994?
So, it's kind of hard to nail down Mac's opening.
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That's not shown, as far as I know. Mac's first appearance is in Storm Front, and Harry describes the bar the same way he always does (to the point that I skip the descriptions now). Harry was already a customer, so that wasn't the first time he was there. I don't think we see that.
Do the comics have Harry showing up there for the first time?
first time he actually talks about how it always feels like an old home or some such iirc. How he'd always felt comfortable there or something... I could see this as him getting his Sight On for prophetic things.
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It wasn't as strong as it was with DR but he was younger; but, it had that deja vu feel.
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Since I've read the Amber series, I now wonder if the card motif on the T-shirt hints that Mac can be associated with playing cards. In Amber series, each of the major characters that have traveled either the Pattern or the Logrus can be depicted on a Trump card. Using this card, you can mentally contact them, reach them so as to summon them to you, or ask them for shelter to bring you to them via the Trump card. Since the shirt depicted in T-shirts are all spades, and it is known that is some card games this is a trump suit, there is a "trump" connection being made between Mac, McAnally's bar, and cards.
So, I'm wondering if Mac is a Trump character from Amber, likely either Corwin, Merlin, or maybe even Corwin's father Oberon, though the last likely not but possible. These Amber characters need not be same as Dresden Files ones.
Now, if we go with Mac as a Amber character either Order or Chaos or both, then he is likely one to be engaged in high-order multiversal events. He could feasibly do things in several times all at once, etc. In some parallel world, Corwin is even considered a Archangel.
So I'm essentially arguing that Mac may be a character from another series altogether. Jim has blended him in to his.
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As to mjolnir symbol on the shirt accompanied by peace rune, the link to storm gods for that shape is often a motif. I'll add that corwin attuned to the jewel of judgement which gives him power over storms.
See one of my earlier comments about Mac being a storm God in the first book of storm front.
Corwin doesn't play much with storms in Amber but he attuned to the jewel which allows him to do so.
In the Near East and other parts of the region, eventually, axes of this sort are often wielded by male divinities and appear to become symbols of the thunderbolt,[9] a symbol often found associated with the axe symbol. In Labraunda of Caria the double-axe accompanies the storm-god Zeus Labraundos. Similar symbols have been found on plates of Linear pottery culture in Romania.[10] The double-axe is associated with the Hurrian god of sky and storm Teshub. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun.[11] Both are depicted holding a triple thunderbolt in one hand, and a double axe in the other hand.[12] Similarly, Zeus throws his Keravnos to bring storm. The labrys, or pelekys, is the double axe Zeus uses to invoke storm, and the relative modern Greek word for lightning is star-axe (ἀστροπελέκι astropeleki)[13] The worship of it was kept up in the Greek island of Tenedos and in several cities in the south-west of former Hellenic Asia Minor, and it appears in later historical times in the cult of the thunder god of Asia Minor (Zeus Labrayndeus).
Based off that, the Labrys are often wielded by gods associated with thunder, storm, lightening etc.
The first symbol though is undoubtedly of Norse origin though there may be other cultures where it exists and represents peace too.
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Storm Front
Mac Bar: First Introduction
Upon Entering:
The dim, comfortable room was empty, but for a pair of men I recognized by sight at a back table, playing chess.
Upon Exiting:
The chess game in the corner was still in progress, both players puffing up a sweet-smelling smog cloud from their pipes.
There is a short story by Roger Zelazny where Corwin has to ride to Amber and make it in time to visit teh Hall of Mirrors. Upon his journeying he stops to rests for the night and wanders a bit. He hears a sound and spies upon Drworkin and Suhuy (representatives of Chaos and Order) playing chess, Chaos bets that Corwin won't make it in time, the players switch spots and Dworkin moves Suhuy's chess piece. Suhuy has to reflect on the move and bids the night. Corwin gets back to his camp and makes a beeline with his horse to Amber to get to the Hall of Mirrors in time.
Anyways, the jist is that these two players at Mac's are actually representatives of the cosmic powers and they are moving their chess pieces around.
“Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains”
This story picks up with Corwin (yay!) after he leaves Chaos. He rides a blue horse named Shask, a Chaos creature who can talk and change shape. Shask warns Corwin about the Dancing Mountains which lie between the shadows of Chaos and the shadows of Amber and are constantly shifting.
At night, Shask turns to stone (apparently a hereditary condition) and Corwin sleeps until he is awakened by a sound. He explores to find a depression in the mountain where two figures are playing a game. One figure is seated on the ground and the other hangs upside down in the air as they move pieces on the board. Corwin recognizes the seated man as Dworkin, his grandfather. His game pieces include a griffin, the Unicorn, and Castle Amber. His opponent is soon revealed to be Suhuy, Dworkin’s counterpart in Chaos. His pieces are a Fire Angel, the Serpent, and the Thelbane (the king’s home in Chaos). Neither man can see Corwin, but Suhuy mentions that Corwin won’t make it back to Amber in time to find the Hall of Mirrors and get the answers he needs. Dworkin warns Suhuy not to underestimate Corwin. Then the two men shift position and Dworkin moves a Chaos piece, a woman, which Suhuy objects to. He needs to study the move, so both men agree to reconvene in a few days before disappearing.
Corwin returns to Shask and when the steed awakens, Corwin asks if he knows what a hellride is. Shask does, noting its often harmful effect on a mount’s sanity. Corwin thinks Shask’s mind is up to the task. Corwin knows he has to get to the Hall of Mirrors quickly and so they prepare to depart.
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Now in the above I was talking about Corwin racing to make it to the Hall of Mirrors. And now, Mac's bar has 13 mirrors.
Mac keeps a player piano instead. It's less likely to go haywire around us. I say pub in all the best senses of the word. When you walk in, you take several steps down into a room with a deadly combination of a low clearance and ceiling fans. If you're tall, like me, you walk carefully in McAnally's. There are thirteen stools at the bar and thirteen tables in the room. Thirteen windows, set up high in the wall in order to be above ground level, let some light from the street into the place. Thirteen mirrors on the walls cast back reflections of the patrons in dim detail, and give the illusion of more space. Thirteen wooden columns, carved with likenesses from folktales and legends of the Old World, make it difficult to walk around the place without weaving a circuitous route—they also quite intentionally break up the flow of random energies, dispelling to one degree or another the auras that gather around broody, grumpy wizards and keeping them from manifesting in unintentional and colorful ways. The colors are all muted, earth browns and sea greens. The first time I entered McAnally's, I felt like a wolf returning to an old, favorite den. Mac makes his own beer, ale really, and it's the best stuff in the city. His food is cooked on a wood-burning stove. And you can damn well walk your own self over to the bar to pick up your order when it's ready, according to Mac. It's my sort of place.
(Page 36).
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Susan Rodriguez was a reporter for the Chicago Arcane, a yellow magazine that covered all sorts of supernatural and paranormal events throughout the Midwest. Usually, the events they covered weren't much better than: "Monkey Man Seen With Elvis's Love Child," or "JFK's Mutant Ghost Abducts Shapeshifting Girl Scout." But once in a great, great while, the Arcane covered something that was real. Like the Unseelie Incursion of 1994, when the entire city of Milwaukee had simply vanished for two hours. Gone. Government satellite photos showed the river valley covered with trees and empty of life or human habitation. All communications ceased. Then, a few hours later, there it was, back again, and no one in the city itself the wiser.
This 1st mention of the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 occurs during the 1st onscreen appearance of Mac's Bar, Susan, and the "Chicago Arcane." I think this further supports the idea that Mac was involved in some way with the Milwaukee event of 1994.
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This 1st mention of the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 occurs during the 1st onscreen appearance of Mac's Bar, Susan, and the "Chicago Arcane." I think this further supports the idea that Mac was involved in some way with the Milwaukee event of 1994.
Pretty sure this was already more or less confirmed by Mac questing for his neutral territory around the events of the 1994 Incursion?
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It hasn't been spelled out that explicitly, which is why I have included this as another circumstantial piece of evidence to support the idea.
We knew his quests likely occurred around 1994 as that was when his pub was established but nothing equated him to the incursion necessarily. This quote of Harry's thinking while at Mac's bar introducing it and Susan for the first time seems to establish the connection clearly.