ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on November 14, 2017, 01:45:15 AM
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I've been thinking really that the Alpha's went from a pack of a dozen who went through at least two trial by fire's together, to about four or five at most.
The War Buddy Bond is tough to crack.
So what exactly happened to cause the Alpha's to split up. Because right now I'm thinking Billy's a pretty shit Alpha of the Alpha's if he lets 12 pack go down to 4 after they've already been through some bonding experience together.
We do have this WOJ.
quote=Jim Butcher]Q: What happened to the other Alphas?
A: Like happens with a lot of kids after college, they graduated and went their separate ways. Some of them wrote off the whole experience as the result of taking drugs in college. One ended up super religious. One ended up institutionalized. Given Kirby’s death, Billy is going to try to track down some of the group[/quote]
What was the catalyst for this? People don't wind up super religious or institutionalised or in deep denial without some sort of catalyst.
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What was the catalyst for this? People don't wind up super religious or institutionalised or in deep denial without some sort of catalyst.
Side effect of "Marcie" the deep-cover supervillain messing with their heads?
He said, half-jokingly. Half.
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Side effect of "Marcie" the deep-cover supervillain messing with their heads?
He said, half-jokingly. Half.
Is Marci a wolf? I was thinking she was paranet... If she is wolfy, perhaps she is... I surmised the whole point of FM was to release the beast and cause the spell to break while finding another to Nfect with the spirit of rage. But Murphy killed Denton, the Alpha's are the ones who are left that could mirror the thing... I was thinking it was a lost Alpha gone beastial, but Marci would work.
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Side effect of "Marcie" the deep-cover supervillain messing with their heads?
He said, half-jokingly. Half.
Ugh.
I've been thinking really that the Alpha's went from a pack of a dozen who went through at least two trial by fire's together, to about four or five at most.
The War Buddy Bond is tough to crack.
So what exactly happened to cause the Alpha's to split up. Because right now I'm thinking Billy's a pretty shit Alpha of the Alpha's if he lets 12 pack go down to 4 after they've already been through some bonding experience together.
We do have this WOJ.
Q: What happened to the other Alphas?
A: Like happens with a lot of kids after college, they graduated and went their separate ways. Some of them wrote off the whole experience as the result of taking drugs in college. One ended up super religious. One ended up institutionalized. Given Kirby’s death, Billy is going to try to track down some of the group
What was the catalyst for this? People don't wind up super religious or institutionalised or in deep denial without some sort of catalyst.
There were 11-13 young people gathered together when Harry first saw them near the beginning of FM. But there were only five in wolf form on his raid at the end of FM.
Later, in SK, there 10-11 piled into the van to join him in the climactic battle. But that included Meryl and Fix, which puts the Alphas at 9-10. But then, a few pages later, it's half a dozen boy wolves and half a dozen girl wolves, bringing it up to a full dozen, assuming he's not rounding up.
But after that, I don't think we see them in any numbers greater than four or five. Personally, I'd chalk it up to them being high schoolers playing around with magic, but after the events of Summer Knight, a bunch quit, having seen the other things out there.
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Griffyn, are you not in favor of the idea that Marci may be shady? Marci, Marcie, Marcy, how the heck is her name spelled?
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I trust Murphy's instincts and she was suspiscious that she showed up at an inconvenient time.
Plus you know she doesn't think with her dick, and think awww poor little female needs help. Even post Lash Harry doesn't always get that right, although admittedly he saw through Roseanna, just not Hannah Ascher.
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Wait....Murphy has a penis?! Well, that explains alot about relationship problems.
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Griffyn, are you not in favor of the idea that Marci may be shady? Marci, Marcie, Marcy, how the heck is her name spelled?
Marcy invaded Marcone's property, joined with Harry to battle Sidhe Queens, protected a piece of Chicago along with the other Alphas while in school, showed up for her friend after she lost her boyfriend, and helped rescue her friends when they were kidnapped.
Not to mention she worked on animation over at Skywalker Ranch.
By comparison, we have Murphy, who has shown questionable judgment numerous times due to her cop-like tendencies. She automatically suspects everyone. She assumes the worst about someone until they prove themselves otherwise.
So I don't trust all of Murphy's instincts. Were the circumstances around Marcy suspicious in Aftermath? Yes. But the only way Marcy would betray her friends is if she was enthralled. By no means do I believe that she's Mavra, or some other Big Bad, in disguise. Not unless the Marcy in Aftermath was a complete replacement to the one Harry knew for years.
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What was the catalyst for this? People don't wind up super religious or institutionalised or in deep denial without some sort of catalyst.
you don't think the battle they experienced in SK could have been sufficient, or if they were around long enough to see Kirby eviscerated? There could very well have been other close calls while they protected the area around the university that just didn't make the books. Any of these could have shook someone enough to send them over the edge or to the church.
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Marcy invaded Marcone's property, joined with Harry to battle Sidhe Queens, protected a piece of Chicago along with the other Alphas while in school, showed up for her friend after she lost her boyfriend, and helped rescue her friends when they were kidnapped.
Not to mention she worked on animation over at Skywalker Ranch.
By comparison, we have Murphy, who has shown questionable judgment numerous times due to her cop-like tendencies. She automatically suspects everyone. She assumes the worst about someone until they prove themselves otherwise.
So I don't trust all of Murphy's instincts. Were the circumstances around Marcy suspicious in Aftermath? Yes. But the only way Marcy would betray her friends is if she was enthralled. By no means do I believe that she's Mavra, or some other Big Bad, in disguise. Not unless the Marcy in Aftermath was a complete replacement to the one Harry knew for years.
This why I am suspicious of her. She left Skywalker Ranch. Noone leaves Skywalker Ranch.
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This why I am suspicious of her. She left Skywalker Ranch. Noone leaves Skywalker Ranch.
Maybe she didn't like working on SW:TCW?
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We do have this WOJ.
quote=Jim Butcher]Q: What happened to the other Alphas?
A: Like happens with a lot of kids after college, they graduated and went their separate ways. Some of them wrote off the whole experience as the result of taking drugs in college. One ended up super religious. One ended up institutionalized. Given Kirby’s death, Billy is going to try to track down some of the group
What was the catalyst for this? People don't wind up super religious or institutionalised or in deep denial without some sort of catalyst.
Nothing in that WOJ is so unusual that it needs some big, group-wide "catalyst." People I knew ten years ago, today I wouldn't recognize. Hell, some people I knew 10 years ago as close friends are dead.
A guy I knew in high school was full-blown, gung-ho marine, Semper Fi never die. Now every time he posts on facebook, at least half a dozen of our mutual friends report him as a potential terrorist.
Another guy I knew even longer than that, he was one of my closest friends, and now he's on drugs and semi-regularly threatening another friend's mother.
(Yes, both have been reported to the authorities when these things happen).
Another guy was a pain in the ass to me throughout middle and high school, and the other day we reminisced together while I was walking my dog and he was doing yard work with his young son.
My mother has a friend who, in college, was a party-girl trouble-maker. Now she's a pastor, to the shock of everyone who knew her growing up, including her.
People grow up. Things happen. That's one of the things I love about The Dresden Files -- that the world turns, people grow and change, even when Harry isn't watching them. I don't see any reason to suspect that the WOJ was anything other than what actually happened.
As for Marci, y'all are forgetting the second bit about Murphy's "instincts."
All the same, I wasn’t sure. She sounded sincere to me, and I’m
pretty good at knowing when someone isn’t. But there’s always a
better liar out there. I just wasn’t sure.
But . . . you have to trust someone, sometime. Even when it
seems risky, when lives are on the line.
Maybe even especially then.
The takeaway from the scene is, explicitly, "Sometimes you have to trust people." And when Murphy trusts Marcy -- when she's not being uber-suspicious -- Marcy proves that she's on their side, a friend and helps at great personal risk and injury.
I don't see how the takeaway from that ever translates into, "Marcy is an evil shapeshifter vampire sleeper agent."
I trust Murphy's instincts and she was suspiscious that she showed up at an inconvenient time.
Plus you know she doesn't think with her dick, and think awww poor little female needs help. Even post Lash Harry doesn't always get that right, although admittedly he saw through Roseanna, just not Hannah Ascher.
Murphy's instincts in the same scene tell her, "Jesus Christ, all you're doing is scaring the crap out of this poor girl who came here to help, lighten the hell up."
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It doesn't have to be that bad. Marcy could be disturbed with unresolved feeling for Andi.
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Maybe she didn't like working on SW:TCW?
That could be possible.
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By comparison, we have Murphy, who has shown questionable judgment numerous times due to her cop-like tendencies. She automatically suspects everyone. She assumes the worst about someone until they prove themselves otherwise.
So I don't trust all of Murphy's instincts.
This plus, at that point Murphy is still in shock from losing Harry, and headed for the state of hardened we see her in GS. So if there's any point in the series at which to expect Murphy to be more off than usual in her judgement, that is likely it.
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X-Files Motto "Trust Noone."
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This plus, at that point Murphy is still in shock from losing Harry, and headed for the state of hardened we see her in GS. So if there's any point in the series at which to expect Murphy to be more off than usual in her judgement, that is likely it.
Holy crap you're still alive!
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I agree with Mr. Death that college groups split up. They have careers that take them to different parts of the country. It is natural that the group gets geographically disbursed.
The more interesting question to me is what happens next. Given the formor attacks, it is very likely that "some" of the alphas that moved away have become involved in the fight against the Formor. "some" might even have been captured by the formor. Add to this the fact that all of these individuals knew Harry rather well - and Harry started the Paranet -- means that heavy Alpha alumni involvement in the paranet is almost a certainity.
Given heavy involvement and given the fact that the Alphas are probably some of the most dangerous (combat wise) members of the paranet, the odds approach certainty that the Alpha alumni network is one of the cornerstones of Paranet self defense.
That has to become useful one day for Harry. :)
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I agree with Mr. Death that college groups split up. They have careers that take them to different parts of the country. It is natural that the group gets geographically disbursed.
The more interesting question to me is what happens next. Given the formor attacks, it is very likely that "some" of the alphas that moved away have become involved in the fight against the Formor. "some" might even have been captured by the formor. Add to this the fact that all of these individuals knew Harry rather well - and Harry started the Paranet -- means that heavy Alpha alumni involvement in the paranet is almost a certainity.
Given heavy involvement and given the fact that the Alphas are probably some of the most dangerous (combat wise) members of the paranet, the odds approach certainty that the Alpha alumni network is one of the cornerstones of Paranet self defense.
That has to become useful one day for Harry. :)
Or they were targeted by the Fomor and used for parts. :-\
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Holy crap you're still alive!
Rumours, greatly exaggerated, &c. &c.
*waggles eyebrows*
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Right, people grow up and move on.
That being said, I wonder if any moved elsewhere and taught others their trick
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I am kinda curious about the one in the psych ward.
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I am kinda curious about the one in the psych ward.
Cause one would tend to think being he could show them, he could prove his sanity or at least that they share his delusion.
On the other hand one wonders if true nonbelievers might not have an anti magic aura of their own... might explain the reference to why Harry could end up in a psyche ward(which imo is totally buffy episode inspired, and i'm ok with that :) ) Course could just end up being a very alternate reality of sorts.
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Who says he's in a psyche ward because nobody believes him?
Maybe he's in a psyche ward because he actually has some unrelated mental issue.
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Who says he's in a psyche ward because nobody believes him?
Maybe he's in a psyche ward because he actually has some unrelated mental issue.
A werewolf who actually is unstable could be fairly terrifying.
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Who says he's in a psyche ward because nobody believes him?
I thought the WoJ said specifically that he was there because his magic was perceived as a delusion by people around him, or words to that effect.
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I am thinking that, in the fictional world, the crazy ones usually come up with the most interesting ways of using their powers.
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I thought the WoJ said specifically that he was there because his magic was perceived as a delusion by people around him, or words to that effect.
As far as I know, the only WOJ on the subject is what's quoted in the original post.
Unless you're referring to the Harry-in-a-psyche-ward thing, which I don't know much about. I was never clear on whether Jim said he planned to have a book like that or if it was just a neat idea that could happen.
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As far as I know, the only WOJ on the subject is what's quoted in the original post.
Unless you're referring to the Harry-in-a-psyche-ward thing, which I don't know much about. I was never clear on whether Jim said he planned to have a book like that or if it was just a neat idea that could happen.
From how it was worded. Iirc it was in the same woj that said now that Harry's died he can do the 'fun' stuff. Then points out a half dozen things he wanted to do.
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I wasn't sure about the psych ward thing. WOJ often gets jumbled in my head. But, if a former Alpha is in the booby-hatch; it is a fair assumption that it is magic-related. Maybe the Alpha and Rudolph have adjoining rooms?
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I am thinking that, in the fictional world, the crazy ones usually come up with the most interesting ways of using their powers.
I think Bob pretty much said that. Something along the lines that only some of the madmen he'd worked for previously could have come up with something like Little Chicago.
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I think Bob pretty much said that. Something along the lines that only some of the madmen he'd worked for previously could have come up with something like Little Chicago.
Which is entirely too ironic to me when I enjoy pointing out how Bob rubs previous owners off onto the new ones by proxy and pooled informatives.
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Back to the Alphas, is Will advance enough to recruit new members to the pack? Does he know enough about the process to teach others to transform? Or, is there some factor in the process that is not available to him?
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in just about every universe or series with werewolves they love living in or near huge forests. It would make sense for a few to move to places like Montana instead of staying in one of the biggest cities in the US.
As for making more since he hasn't added any new members in the last decade i doubt hes able to.
also its kinda time for his crew to fade from the series being able to bite and claw at someone with human strength makes them relatively useless against most of what harry faces nowadays
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I doubt that Butcher is done with the pack; but, yeah, I see your point about their level of effectiveness against many of Harry's problems.
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They're not just "bite and claw at human strength." For a start, wolves and dogs can bite much harder than humans can.
For another, the Alphas are regularly described as larger than normal wolves, which means even more strength they can pack on.
And don't discount pack tactics and their ability to move. Overall, their abilities are probably close to the average White Court vampire, and they certainly weren't so useless in Turn Coat.
Plus, Harry is still facing things wolves could be effective against. It's not like every enemy Harry faces is in the god tier weightclass. Fomor servitors, for instance.
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They're not just "bite and claw at human strength." For a start, wolves and dogs can bite much harder than humans can.
For another, the Alphas are regularly described as larger than normal wolves, which means even more strength they can pack on.
And don't discount pack tactics and their ability to move. Overall, their abilities are probably close to the average White Court vampire, and they certainly weren't so useless in Turn Coat.
Plus, Harry is still facing things wolves could be effective against. It's not like every enemy Harry faces is in the god tier weightclass. Fomor servitors, for instance.
Georgia and Will gave Shagnasty something to think about after it killed Kirby. Harrying, hit and run tactics worked about as well as anything else, which is to say they weren't lethal, but did have a noticeable impact.