ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on October 31, 2017, 05:04:02 AM
-
I was thinking that the shade of Maeve may have been left on the Island. The Maeve without the corruption of Nemesis, or the personality altering Mantle. What do you think? Could she pass information to Harry if he gets in contact with her? What do you think she'd be like? Maybe she has input from Nemesis since it possessed her.
-
That would require Morty, Fitz, or a special ointment by Harry; since those have been thee three ways to contact the dead.
-
I like the thought. Maybe that's how he'll what he learned in GS.
-
I was thinking that the shade of Maeve may have been left on the Island. The Maeve without the corruption of Nemesis, or the personality altering Mantle. What do you think? Could she pass information to Harry if he gets in contact with her? What do you think she'd be like? Maybe she has input from Nemesis since it possessed her.
Do Sidhe generate shades?
-
Do Sidhe generate shades?
And why would that shade be free of the spiritual infection that is nemesis? This is what Maeve has become, she does not suddenly loose it when dead.
-
Well, in my interpretation, shades are what's left of the spiritual energy of a being. But since WoJ says a Queen loses her soul, and likely along with it any sense of individually, I can't imagine there'd be much of anything left of the original host spiritually that isn't incorporated into the mantle.
Besides, shades of former Queens would be very, very bad from a security standpoint. I'd imagine the Queens would endeavor to make sure any remnant of a Queen's knowledge wouldn't be free to fall into the hands of others.
-
Well, in my interpretation, shades are what's left of the spiritual energy of a being. But since WoJ says a Queen loses her soul, and likely along with it any sense of individually, I can't imagine there'd be much of anything left of the original host spiritually that isn't incorporated into the mantle.
Besides, shades of former Queens would be very, very bad from a security standpoint. I'd imagine the Queens would endeavor to make sure any remnant of a Queen's knowledge wouldn't be free to fall into the hands of others.
At the end of ghost story Harry’s soul is still there but according to Uriel his spiritual energy was nearly gone and the other ghosts/spirits/shades couldn’t even see him.
Harry’s essence, as Mab called it, was still there.
Maeve was only a few hundred years old so I doubt the essence of Maeve was completely gone. Her childly behaviour, her mommy issues, her rejecting the status quo. It is all Maeve. Not a nice person but an easy victim for Nemesis because of that.
But even then a soul needs spiritual energy to express itself in the spirit world otherwise only beings like Uriel and Mouse could see her.
-
We may get to see what might have happened to Maeve if things turned out differently in the upcoming Book 17, Mirror Mirror. In that book, Harry is summoned into an alternate reality in which he made one decision differently, and as a result everything turned out completely different. One of the differences between our Harry's reality and this new Mirror Mirror reality could be that Harry's interactions with the fairies turned out completely different. Aurora and Maeve could still be alive and still be Winter Ladies. Harry may never have became the Winter Knight. Lilly and Fix might still be changelings. And Sarissa might still be trapped between Mab and Maeve. Anything is possible.
-
Maeve was only a few hundred years old so I doubt the essence of Maeve was completely gone. Her childly behaviour, her mommy issues, her rejecting the status quo. It is all Maeve.
This is where semantics come into play.
We know humans have a body that retains a lot of memory, a spirit that retains some memory, and a soul that retains all memory.
I'd argue that as a Queen, Maeve lost her soul and spirit, but retained her physical brain memory of who she was.
But that's just my working theory.
-
This is where semantics come into play.
We know humans have a body that retains a lot of memory, a spirit that retains some memory, and a soul that retains all memory.
I'd argue that as a Queen, Maeve lost her soul and spirit, but retained her physical brain memory of who she was.
But that's just my working theory.
The ladies are immortal which means that even if you destroy their bodies they will return with memories. That means it is not the brain that is kept, it is the spirit.
And the spirit can harbour a soul (see Harry in ghost story) or not. The body can harbour a spirit.
Molly's fast travel at the end of skin game is suspicious. I got a vague impression that she might have traveled in spirit form as a cold winter wind and just reassembled her body when needed.
Even not immortal sidhe like Lea are beings from both the mortal world and the spirit world. So Maeves spirit was still intact, it is her soul that she was slowly losing.
That is my working theory anyway. I see no reason why Maeve should have lost both spirit and soul. Especially since the loosing of soul can be creeping but the loss of spirit is not.
-
We may get to see what might have happened to Maeve if things turned out differently in the upcoming Book 17, Mirror Mirror. In that book, Harry is summoned into an alternate reality in which he made one decision differently, and as a result everything turned out completely different. One of the differences between our Harry's reality and this new Mirror Mirror reality could be that Harry's interactions with the fairies turned out completely different. Aurora and Maeve could still be alive and still be Winter Ladies. Harry may never have became the Winter Knight. Lilly and Fix might still be changelings. And Sarissa might still be trapped between Mab and Maeve. Anything is possible.
I doubt there will be any difference in Maeve, from a Nemfection perspective.
Jim has said that the decision Harry makes that makes the difference is at the end of GP. By then the party had already taken place and the Atheme that infected Leah, and then Maeve had already been passed on to them.
-
And why would that shade be free of the spiritual infection that is nemesis? This is what Maeve has become, she does not suddenly loose it when dead.
Do you have proof that a spirit or shade has been Nemesis infected? As Jim has said, Nemesis isn't some all powerful thing.
-
I'd argue that as a Queen, Maeve lost her soul and spirit
Jim said that Mab might even still have some soul left. I don't see why Maeve would be completely void of a soul.
-
Do you have proof that a spirit or shade has been Nemesis infected? As Jim has said, Nemesis isn't some all powerful thing.
Did I imply it was all powerful?
A spiritual infection is nothing new. Touching a denarian coin is enough to infect you and Lash did change Harry though not in the way intended.
Nemesis is also a spiritual infection that can change your nature, your spirit. It gives Maeve the ability to lie which she s against her nature. Her nature, her spirit was changed nu the infection. And that infection was carried nu an object of power.
-
I doubt there will be any difference in Maeve, from a Nemfection perspective.
Jim has said that the decision Harry makes that makes the difference is at the end of GP. By then the party had already taken place and the Atheme that infected Leah, and then Maeve had already been passed on to them.
Harry's choice may have changed the circumstances of Lea's infection, or otherwise hampered her ability to spread it. Lea may be infected, but that doesn't mean Maeve was.
And, I think, it's open to interpretation what "the end" of Grave Peril is from Jim's perspective. I'm still pushing the concept that it was Harry's choice to use Amoracchius dishonorably that was different, though, so I'm pretty biased.
-
Harry's choice may have changed the circumstances of Lea's infection, or otherwise hampered her ability to spread it. Lea may be infected, but that doesn't mean Maeve was.
And, I think, it's open to interpretation what "the end" of Grave Peril is from Jim's perspective. I'm still pushing the concept that it was Harry's choice to use Amoracchius dishonorably that was different, though, so I'm pretty biased.
Why would the honourable and good choice lead to a more evil Harry?
At the end of Grave Peril Harry has to choose between Susan resulting in war and peace on the vampires terms as most of the council would have preferred. I think the mirror Harry sacrificed Susan which led to a much darker Harry.
-
Why would the honourable and good choice lead to a more evil Harry?
At the end of Grave Peril Harry has to choose between Susan resulting in war and peace on the vampires terms as most of the council would have preferred. I think the mirror Harry sacrificed Susan which led to a much darker Harry.
Because it has a whole mess of consequences, some of which are good short-term, but most of which are terrible in the long-term. My idea is as follows:
1. Michael went with Harry to get the Sword back. Harry wouldn't have been able to tear him away from Charity without it.
2. If Michael isn't there, Harry can claim Susan as a guest. They're able to vamoose from the party as a result, before the blood starts to spill.
3. Thomas and Justine are left to the vampires. Harry never meets his brother. Justine is eaten or turned. Thomas pretty much gives up or dies himself.
4. Lea is unable to offer a trade for the athame. As a Fae, she can either A) not accept it, or B) offer something else. If she offers something else, then swell, things move on as they did in Prime Harryverse. If she can't accept it, then the athame goes to someone else—maybe even Ferrovax. If Lea isn't infected, neither is Maeve, at least not through that transmission vector. This has obvious long-term effects; Mab isn't given Harry's debt, Maeve doesn't kill Lily—or Aurora isn't killed in the first place. Lloyd Slate may not even be made Winter Knight. Harry certainly isn't.
5. Major badness: the Red Court doesn't declare war too early, and take another five years to get their sucker punch ready. Instead of fighting a disunified, bickering Red Court wherein all the nobles are backstabbing one another, the White Council has to fight back against Pearl Harbors occurring ten times at once. The Reds run roughshod all over the White Council, taking pretty much everyone by surprise. Don't know what happens with Susan, but Harry is too busy putting out fires all over Chicago, constantly, and he's fighting a battle he can't win.
Dark Harry is created over YEARS of fighting a war that was lost the moment he started fighting.
6. Meanwhile, if Lea is and Summer Knight plays out the same way, the White Council isn't at war with the Red Court, so they're not able to shanghai Harry into securing the Ways. Harry ignores the problem like he plans to do at the beginning. Maybe he just delays his involvement by a day. Harry's too late to stop Aurora. Or Mab goes to someone else to fix the problem, and they don't manage to get it done in time.
I can go on, but I'm pressed for time. Basically, my idea is that if Michael isn't at that party and Harry's able to leave, there's a huge ripple effect across the series timeline, and severely bad things happen as a result. Think about how Harry's involvement in the events of each book are absolutely necessary to avoid cataclysmic results, then tweak the details of what he does just enough, and things turn out totally differently, enough to the point that Harry grows a goatee.
-
I'm thinking Harry's choosing not to use the sword in the cemetery really can't be THE CHOICE. It's not a bad choice. From that, even based on your steps that follow, there is no reason for Harry to go darker.
His choice will be either to NOT stop the sword from being unmade, or it'll be to not save Susan and subsequently not start a war. Either of these choices can take Harry into some really dark places.
Of course we won't find out until the book comes out, but I just don't see him going dark by preventing Susan from getting half-turned.
-
His choice will be either to NOT stop the sword from being unmade, or it'll be to not save Susan and subsequently not start a war. Either of these choices can take Harry into some really dark places.
Or the choice to not say he loves Susan, which has consequences that spiral for him.
-
Or the choice to not say he loves Susan, which has consequences that spiral for him.
I agree. It could be that, but I lump that into deciding not to save her.
-
See, that's one I have a lot of trouble picturing. There's just no way that Harry chooses to not save Susan, in my opinion. Harry just does it, because it's not really a question. I'd think that the choice would be presented more as a choice rather than the thing Harry does next, if that makes sense.
I left out a big, big, BIG alternate piece of my idea that I completely forgot to articulate because I'm not as smart as I think I am: Harry chooses to go with Lea in the graveyard rather than trying to use the Sword to get out of it. Susan goes, gets eaten, badness happens. Harry gets out of being a hound some other way, but the Nemesis infection goes elsewhere—somewhere way worse, like to Mr. Ferro—because Lea's busy with her new toy, the war is delayed long enough for the sucker punch to land hard, and Harry spends the following decade fighting and losing.
-
Kindler - the only hang up I have with that is that it's not close enough to the end of the book, based on what Jim said.
I'm not saying it can't be, but it just doesn't sit right with me.
-
Did I imply it was all powerful?
A spiritual infection is nothing new. Touching a denarian coin is enough to infect you and Lash did change Harry though not in the way intended.
Nemesis is also a spiritual infection that can change your nature, your spirit. It gives Maeve the ability to lie which she s against her nature. Her nature, her spirit was changed nu the infection. And that infection was carried nu an object of power.
Corrupting a person, and a spirit/shade/soul are different things. If Harry's body is destroyed, his soul carries on. Why would corrupting a persons mind corrupt their spirit/shade/soul? Leah was saved by Mab from Nemesis. Was her spirit purified? why?
Can you show evidence that a person can be corrupted beyond the grave from Nemesis?
-
Corrupting a person, and a spirit/shade/soul are different things. If Harry's body is destroyed, his soul carries on. Why would corrupting a persons mind corrupt their spirit/shade/soul? Leah was saved by Mab from Nemesis. Was her spirit purified? why?
Can you show evidence that a person can be corrupted beyond the grave from Nemesis?
We do not have that many nemesis cases and not one of them after dead. But we can discuss analogies and we have some evidence about body, spirit and soul.
Remember that soul and spirit are connected but different things. Corrupting a spirit is easier than corrupting the soul but someone with a corrupted spirit will probably make decisions that change his soul.
And we do have Harry and when he died the things changed by Lash did not suddenly disappear. Corpstaker was still a blackened warlock and so on. We know Nemesis can change a persons nature and that means their spirit.
So it stands to reason that if a person sufficiently changed by Nemesis died that person is not suddenly free from what Nemesis did to his spirit because Nemesis changes your spirit.
Moreover as Lea made clear in ghost story the Sidhe live in both worlds, the body and the spiritual. A mere change in mind without a change in spirit would not have fooled her.
-
See, that's one I have a lot of trouble picturing. There's just no way that Harry chooses to not save Susan, in my opinion.
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine? And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?
-
We do not have that many nemesis cases and not one of them after dead. But we can discuss analogies and we have some evidence about body, spirit and soul.
Remember that soul and spirit are connected but different things. Corrupting a spirit is easier than corrupting the soul but someone with a corrupted spirit will probably make decisions that change his soul.
And we do have Harry and when he died the things changed by Lash did not suddenly disappear. Corpstaker was still a blackened warlock and so on. We know Nemesis can change a persons nature and that means their spirit.
So it stands to reason that if a person sufficiently changed by Nemesis died that person is not suddenly free from what Nemesis did to his spirit because Nemesis changes your spirit.
Moreover as Lea made clear in ghost story the Sidhe live in both worlds, the body and the spiritual. A mere change in mind without a change in spirit would not have fooled her.
Have to disagree, but to each his own.
-
Have to disagree, but to each his own.
It was Lea who learned Harry to look at his spiritual memories to see his memories as they really were and not how they were often incorrectly stored in his brain. Ghost story.
The Sidhe are for a big part spiritual beings living in the spirit world with one foot here. A mere change in the brain is not enough.
-
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine? And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?
And, if the war is delayed then Simon might exist in the alternative reality. If Simon did exist then Harry, as one of the few to intereact with Cowl, might connect Simon with Cowl.
-
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine? And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?
I can get behind something like that; I was thinking the choice was "I'm not going to go back for Susan because I'll die" or something similar.
I think that the choice might be one that is based on unintended consequences; Harry makes a choice that should be better because it conforms to a higher ideal of right and wrong, but walking the Light path causes long-term Darkness. Harry willingly does the hard thing, the stuff that isn't heroic, because Good is Not Nice. Like beating the tar out of Cassius to get the information he needed. Kind of making a what-if scenario, one Harry might've second-guessed frequently ("If only I hadn't used the Sword," "If only I hadn't drunk the wine," "If only I had listened to Thomas,"), but ultimately proving that the choice that looks wrong wound up turning out for the best. Does that make sense to anyone else?
And, if the war is delayed then Simon might exist in the alternative reality. If Simon did exist then Harry, as one of the few to intereact with Cowl, might connect Simon with Cowl.
Well yeah, I'm definitely behind that. One of the things I think is certainly going to have happened in Mirror, Mirror is that the war was delayed, and wound up way more devastating to the White Council because of it. Simon living through it isn't something I'd considered.
Well... dang. Ebenezer isn't on the Senior Council in that case. So Molly... hmm. That's a big, bad ripple effect.
-
Yeah, I get it Kindler, but I'm thinking it's a decision, a big decision, that we see, and that makes sense in the circumstances. Like at the end to let Susan go and not start the war.
-
Yeah, I get it Kindler, but I'm thinking it's a decision, a big decision, that we see, and that makes sense in the circumstances. Like at the end to let Susan go and not start the war.
Sorry, I meant to respond to you earlier; I think we're generally in agreement. Mine is a pet concept that I'm not willing to let go yet, but the Susan thing is every bit as possible, if not more so, if handled as Gryffyn said. It is not the hill I've chosen to die on just yet, regardless.
-
The difference between one act of reasonable cowardice versus an act of irrational courage.
-
Or the choice to not say he loves Susan, which has consequences that spiral for him.
Absolutely that. The first chapter is Michael grilling Harry about loving Susan and lecturing Harry that he needs to tell her. The book starts and ends with the choice to say I love you so that has to be the big decision to which JB was referring.
-
See, I don't see that bothering him as much as you think. Sure he did love her, but he was reluctant to say it. If he never said it, he wouldn't feel regret for it with the way things went down.
Then again, it may have been saying I love you, was the thing that stopped Susan from killing him.
-
Michael asked Harry if he loves Susan on the second page of the book and forces Harry to say it out loud. There is also this beauty of language:
"Harry Dresden," he said. "You of all people, should know the power of words."
Then, in the last 50 pages of the book, Harry finally tells Susan he loves her, which is the key to enabling him to break Lea's spell and prevent Susan from going full vampire.
"I love you." Why it worked right then, why the webbing of my godmothers' spell frayed as though the words had been an open flame, I don't know. . . . I'll say this though: Some words have a power that has nothing to do with supernatural forces. ... Those three words are good ones.
Several chapters later we see it was of so much importance to Harry to have said the words "I love you" that he was content to die having said them.
"I love you," I said, or tried to say to Susan. "I love you." She pressed her mouth to mine. I think she was crying. "Hush" she said. "Harry. Hush. I love you , too." It was done. There was no reason to hold on.
Finally, the book ends with Susan sending a birthday card that only has three words.
I'll let you guess what three.
In sum, the start and end of the book is about the importance of Harry telling Susan he loves her and the power that those three words have. If Harry doesn't say I love you, he doesn't save Susan (she probably bites him and gets killed by the poison - he passes out and gets killed by Kravos, but Justine does CPR saving him and helping him get his power back). He then kills Bianca and the vampires out of revenge instead of because he is willing to wage war to save Susan. That is the first step down the dark road.
-
Cozarkian,
I'm not going to argue with you about this. I agree. That is what Grave Peril was about. Well, one of the things.
However, I'm thinking Mirror Mirror won't be about that choice. It's an important one, but I don't believe that's the one.
-
Cozarkian,
I'm not going to argue with you about this. I agree. That is what Grave Peril was about. Well, one of the things.
However, I'm thinking Mirror Mirror won't be about that choice. It's an important one, but I don't believe that's the one.
That's fine, I just wanted to go back and double check the actual text to see if I had missed anything and that all of the evidence had been presented.
-
To be fair, in The Warrior SS, small actions by Harry led to notable corrections of behavior.
-
corrections by Michael?
-
Corrections by those individuals he noticed and interacted with while helping Michael.
-
I'll re-read the story. I'm not making a connection here.
-
I'll re-read the story. I'm not making a connection here.
Like the construction worker; Harry getting on his case about being drunk at work got him the help he needed and prevented a (relatively speaking) minor personal catastrophe for him, as I recall. Small actions lead to personal improvements.
For a guy like Harry, personal changes affect the world stage, because he's been integral in so many major world events.
-
That about sums it up. A sorta Dresden butterfly effect.
-
Back on topic, it occurs to me that Harry already met the real Maeve - in SK. She wasn't any nicer than nemfected Maeve.
-
Back on topic, it occurs to me that Harry already met the real Maeve - in SK. She wasn't any nicer than nemfected Maeve.
I think she was already nemfected. Why would Nemesis wait?
-
I think she was already nemfected. Why would Nemesis wait?
There is no eye twinkling in SK, which was the clue JB used in PG that she was infected.
Maeve helped defeat Aurora's plan by saving Harry on the battlefield. Why would Nemesis let Maeve help Harry defeat its own plan? If Maeve was already infected, she let's Harry die, Aurora's plan succeeds, and Nemesis wins.
Finally , if I recall, Maeve mentions being sent by Lea. This is an on screen mention of a meeting as to when Maeve could have been infected, which was after the first time we saw Maeve. Personally, I don't think Maeve was infected during hat meeting - I think she made a deal with Lea to help Harry and she was infected later when she went to collect on the deal.
-
Yeah, I don't think she was Nemfected in SK. I think she was just nasty.
-
I agree, infection happened between SK and PG.
-
Except that Aurora must have gotten the infection from someone and Maeve is the logical link ith the athame.
-
Aurora's infection predates Maeve's infection. Considering it took several years for Maeve to be completely entralled by it; I would say it took Aurora several years to go "full Shane." And, who was relatively new to Summer Court prior to SK and herself trying to throw off an enthrallment? Why Elaine, of course.
-
I think Maeve was infected in Summer Knight. I don't think Aurora was necessarily infected at all. We only have Lily's testimony on the matter, and Maeve—so really, just Maeve, considering how much she had manipulated Lily. Personally, I think that Nemesis had begun working on Maeve, but did it slower and more deliberately, over time; Sith wasn't done properly, which is why Nemesis had to take full control. I think Nemesis used Maeve's impotence in Summer Knight (like when she could barely control Lloyd) to manipulate her more—and Harry's flippant attitude didn't help.
Molly said that the best way to screw with someone's mind is to just enhance personality traits. I think that's what Nemesis was doing. She was always cruel, but Nemesis made her crueler.
As for the mad twinkle, I think that's specifically an indication of when Maeve lies, not a blanket sign of infection, if that makes sense.
Summer Knight is also the last book we see Lea on page before she's imprisoned, and she'd already sold Harry's debt. I take that as a sign that she had been busily spreading the infection.
-
Aurora's compassion for humanity was enhanced in exactly the way you described. She did something that should have been impossible (betrayed summer and tried to destroy it) and Titania admits that Aurora's death was necessary. I think that is substantial evidence she was infected.
Lea still has the Athame in SK - she sold Harry's debt to balance the scales of power so she could keep it and she isn't imprisoned until after SK. That means Lea could still be infecting people in SK and suggests she wasn't caught until after the book.
Except that Aurora must have gotten the infection from someone and Maeve is the logical link ith the athame.
Why is Maeve the logical link when Lea had the Athame?
-
Aurora's compassion for humanity was enhanced in exactly the way you described. She did something that should have been impossible (betrayed summer and tried to destroy it) and Titania admits that Aurora's death was necessary. I think that is substantial evidence she was infected.
Very good point.
Lea still has the Athame in SK - she sold Harry's debt to balance the scales of power so she could keep it and she isn't imprisoned until after SK. That means Lea could still be infecting people in SK and suggests she wasn't caught until after the book.
True enough. I just don't see any personality difference between Summer Knight Maeve and Cold Days Maeve. They act perfectly consistently with one another, except there is conclusive proof that she lies as of Proven Guilty, and there's nothing to disprove anything she says in Summer Knight.
-
I don't think there was a personality difference. Maeve was perfect for Nemesis because she was already cruel and resentful. I think she formed a willing alliance with Nemesis like Anduriel/Nicodemus while in other instances Nemesis uses brute Force (Cat Sith) to take over his victim (Ursiel) or subtle manipulation while remaining concealed (Aurora) like Lash/Shiela tried with Harry.
-
When you consider that Maeve had already been avoiding performing her duties, the real difference between SK Maeve and DB or CD Maeve is that she was able to lie.
And didn't Mab confirm in CD that it was Leah who infected Maeve through the Athame? Or did she just confirm that it was the Athame?
-
I don’t think there is that much nemesis infected stuff at this side of the gates otherwise Nemesis would just go for mass infection. In stead it carefully selects its targets.
It must be difficult for Nemesis to bring it here. I think we can safely assume the dagger is the source of all known infections.
Nemesis had no reason to wait. Maeve was an obvious target so she was next. After that they sought some distraction and Aurora was perfect.
-
I'm confused, Arjan. Do you think Maeve was infected prior to (or in) Summer Knight?>
-
I'm confused, Arjan. Do you think Maeve was infected prior to (or in) Summer Knight?>
Yes. I do not see any reason for Nemesis to wait especially since Lea was resisting and keeping her under control must have taken some effort. Better to secure the target as soon as possible.
She might not have been aware of the infection yet though.
-
Yes. I do not see any reason for Nemesis to wait especially since Lea was resisting and keeping her under control must have taken some effort. Better to secure the target as soon as possible.
She might not have been aware of the infection yet though.
As there is only about a year between GP and SK, I'm not thinking that Nemesis could have taken Leah over enough in that time to have forced her to infect Maeve. Further I don't think Leah would have gone around waving the Athame around and showing it off to Maeve.
I'd need more evidence to support a Nemfected Maeve in SK.
-
She might not have been aware of the infection yet though.
What makes you think Lea was aware of the Nemfection in SK?
-
What makes you think Lea was aware of the Nemfection in SK?
I was talking about Maeve.
We do not know when Lea became aware of it but it could have been from the very beginning but not before she got it because she called it a treacherous gift.
However after she became aware of it she tried to fight it alone. I think she infected Maeve before she became aware of it or at least when nemesis was in control so pretty soon after she was infected herself. Lea did not want to run to Mab until the shame became too much because the athame represented a lot of power.
-
I was talking about Maeve.
We do not know when Lea became aware of it but it could have been from the very beginning but not before she got it because she called it a treacherous gift.
However after she became aware of it she tried to fight it alone. I think she infected Maeve before she became aware of it or at least when nemesis was in control so pretty soon after she was infected herself. Lea did not want to run to Mab until the shame became too much because the athame represented a lot of power.
Ah, I was assuming you thought Lea had knowingly infected Maeve and that Lea was therefore aware of the infection in SK.
-
Ah, I was assuming you thought Lea had knowingly infected Maeve and that Lea was therefore aware of the infection in SK.
She probably remembered later. I think Nemesis works a lot like mind magic. A cross between mind magic and denarian influence. Sith was not aware of the influence before Harry told him. Aurora was just confused. They knew what they did they just though it was the right thing to do at the moment.
-
Personally, I think Lea was really hoping to avoid Mab's cure of imprisonment and "exquisite pain" for as long as possible once she realized she wasn't right.
-
Personally, I think Lea was really hoping to avoid Mab's cure of imprisonment and "exquisite pain" for as long as possible once she realized she wasn't right.
No, fear of pain and torture is not what Lea influences much. It was all about power and self control. She feared the loss of power and she wanted power above all. But even above that she had an image of herself, her nature and she did not want to have her nature changed, she likes it the way it is. Her inability to protect her own nature drove her to Mab.
-
The cure of imprisonment was, also, Lea's penance for infecting Mab's daughter.
-
The cure of imprisonment was, also, Lea's penance for infecting Mab's daughter.
I don't agree with that. I think Mab lays blame for infecting Maeve at Nemesis' feet, and there is nothing for Leah to worry about on that front.
I think it was all about curing Leah.
-
So, you think Mab is not blaming the messenger for poisoned message?
-
So, you think Mab is not blaming the messenger for poisoned message?
Not even a little bit. I don't think Mab would waste time on something that petty. Yes it was her daughter, but her daughter was clued in and should have been more wary about Leah wanting to share something like the Athame with her.
-
Not even a little bit. I don't think Mab would waste time on something that petty. Yes it was her daughter, but her daughter was clued in and should have been more wary about Leah wanting to share something like the Athame with her.
Personally, I always thought Infected Lea left the athame conspicuously unguarded, or otherwise tricked Maeve into stealing it, and once she had it, it acted quickly.
-
Personally, I always thought Infected Lea left the athame conspicuously unguarded, or otherwise tricked Maeve into stealing it, and once she had it, it acted quickly.
I don't think Maeve would have given it back if that was the case and Mab got it before dead beat from Lea.
-
Was the knife that was used in Summer Knight by Slate on Elaine maybe the Athame?
-
Doubt it, I think it was fairly normal.
-
Yeah, other than the blood, I don't recall much of a description. I think Harry would have noticed.
-
Seeing someone's ghost is best served for closure. Maeve got what she asked for just not in the way she wanted.