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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 11:49:34 AM
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My mind wandered onto the fact that 3 of the last 4 books involved either the sacrificing and/or the saving of daughters. 4 out of 4 if you count Colin Murphy encouraging Harry to return to the world to help ensure Karrin Murphy's safety. Is this something significant?
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mab and meave, harry and maggie, colin murphy and karrin murphy so who are the fourt pair mate? and whats the theory in your mind
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Nico and his daughter in the last book. Not so much a theory, just noticing a pattern and wondering what it means.
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There's also the accidental semi-sacrifice of Molly's stability (and sanity) due to Harry's actions—he kind of chose his biological daughter over his apprentice, sort-of-surrogate daughter. We saw that play out in Ghost Story.
Sarissa and Molly were also, in a sense, sacrificed to become the Ladies. They've now rejected mortality, and will eventually lose their personalities.
Good catch. Might be nothing, but patterns are patterns.
EDIT: Also, Molly's sacrifice to become the Lady indirectly saved Harry's other daughter, Bonnie!
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Yeah, I thought of that too. But, the stronger connection is the parent/child one.
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Nico and his daughter in the last book. Not so much a theory, just noticing a pattern and wondering what it means.
Here's a pattern i'm not surprise at. Nic and Harry make basically the complete opposite of choices, where their daughter's are concerned in this instance.
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Mab was more reluctant to kill Maeve than Nico was to killing Deirdre. Deirdre was a more devoted daughter than Maeve was.
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Mab was more reluctant to kill Maeve than Nico was to killing Deirdre. Deirdre was a more devoted daughter than Maeve was.
Interesting. Is the sacrifices one makes for one's daughter (and sons?) an indicator of how good a person is in the DV? From best to worst:
Harry - Willing to burn the world to save his daughter.
Charity - Risks her own life to storm Arctis Tor to save her daughter.
Maggie Le Fey - Makes provisions to provide for her children after she is gone.
Ebenezer - Verdict is still out, but likely not much worse that unintentionally making some bad parenting decisions.
Mab - Asks to have her daughter killed (and ultimately assists with it happening) but tries to save her daughter first.
Titania - Refuses to rat out her daughter even though it will lead to a Faerie apocalypse, and holds an eternal grudge against her daughter's killer despite that the death was necessary.
Duke & Arianna Ortega - Go to war to avenge her death, but only after steering her toward events that lead to her death (am I wrong that Bianca's creator was the Ortegas?).
Victor Sells - Neglects his children in a quest for power.
Papa Raith - Down right awful to his daughters AND his sons.
Nicodemus - Kills his daughter for self-serving reasons, also much of what Lord Raith does.
Additions? Disagreements?
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Yea, I disagree, Victor was starting to look at his kids funny too according to his wife. Thinking of sacrificing them for power.
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I would have to say that covers the spectrum well. While Victor was leaning towards Lord Raith level actions or worse; Harry didn't give him a chance. At most I might swap Eb and Maggie Sr. Eb didn't make a tough situation for Maggie like the ones she made for Harry and Thomas. Granted she made some corrections that happened post-mortem. As far as it representing goodness of character; I have a conclusion that I think better represents the situation. I think that spectrum represents personal beliefs of family value vs. world value. I may be wrong.
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Interesting. Is the sacrifices one makes for one's daughter (and sons?) an indicator of how good a person is in the DV? From best to worst:
Harry - Willing to burn the world to save his daughter.
Nicodemus - Kills his daughter for self-serving reasons, also much of what Lord Raith does.
Additions? Disagreements?
I think the people (and their children) in the world that Dresden was willing to burn might disagree on him being the role model for how to behave. That’s called selfishness and reckless disregard for other people and beings.
Nic and Deirdre said over and over that they are trying to save the universe. I put Deirdre’s sacrifice at the top of the list. Dying for the universe; she’d be a messiah figure in a religious mythos.
And, don’t forget her, Deirdre is a grown woman making her own choices. She is not secondary to Nic in this scenario. She is the primary figure. That Nic would help her in this terrible and selfless decision shows that he, also, is acting in a selfless way to benefit everything in the universe.
Deirdre is a hero.
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In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?
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In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?
Thanks for the reply. In response, I’d say:
Point one- yes, of course. But the “let the world burn” attitude only makes sense for the individual, not the whole. It’s why most countries don’t let victims or victims’ families set the penalty for crimes as they are not rational actors and able to make the best choices for a society given their closeness to the situation typically. Of course, though, I’d save my child first given the choice. The main issue I cited was setting the “let the world burn” irrationality as the ideal for a functional society.
Point two- I’m sort of joking.
That said, Deirdre still made the biggest, most consequential selfless sacrifice one can make for the safety of the universe. I don’t actually believe in “heroes” as a real life concept. She exhibited some anti-social behaviour, she lived apart from civilisation, she killed, she may have even enjoyed it. However, she also sacrificed herself to save the universe. No “bad” stuff she had done prior negates that just as a lifetime of being kind doesn’t negate a terrible act at the end if it. People are complex. And remember, we know very little of her inner-life. Everything presented to us is through Dresden’s bias with little to no insight into her.
I also thought her sacrifice was a sort of a parallel or parallel adjacent to the Jesus mythos. I wondered, on reading it, if that was what Butcher meant to do with it.
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The ideal of a functional society should be "Don't f#(k with me, I won't F#(k with you and we"ll get stuff done." Pretty simple to understand; but, for some reason, difficult in the application.
Deirdre was a grown woman and she made her choice; but, I hate Nico for giving his child that choice to begin with.
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While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing.
Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife. Further she KNEW there was an afterlife. Granted she didn't think it thought. Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.
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While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing.
Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife. Further she KNEW there was an afterlife. Granted she didn't think it thought. Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.
That's just how Harry interpreted it... I think 'the enemy' refers to Nemesis in this case... and is what they are trying to save the world from.
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While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing.
Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife. Further she KNEW there was an afterlife. Granted she didn't think it thought. Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.
That's not why she sacrificed herself. Her father just reminded her that she'd be safe from the adversary there as a silver lining (and the enemy or whatever was not defined). She gave her life to save the universe even knowing there is some sort of afterlife in that universe. I think she's the best character in the book. I'd actually read one of the short stories if it was about her and gave her perspective.
She was born into the life of Nic et al. She was just as much a victim as any other. Did she ever have a chance to be something else? I think not. Yet, even growing up as she did, she still chose to be the one who does the right thing as she saw it to save everything and everyone. Things aren't black and white.
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What would be the appropriate Hades-related torment for someone who spent a lifetime slicing people up?
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I don't think we can judge Harry or any parent saying that he or she would be willing to let the world burn to save his or her child. That isn't selfish, it is called being a parent... It was said at the height of frustration and emotion, only in Harry's case he possibly had the power to do it... The important thing is, he didn't do it and he found another way to save his child.
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The ideal of a functional society should be "Don't f#(k with me, I won't F#(k with you and we"ll get stuff done." Pretty simple to understand; but, for some reason, difficult in the application.
Impossible in a world with limitted resources. People have to work with each other and compete with each other at the same time.
Deirdre was a grown woman and she made her choice; but, I hate Nico for giving his child that choice to begin with.
There is the free will argument again but how much of that is real if you are brainwashed from the beginning? How young was Deirdre when she got that coin?
No reason to let her run loose, she was a danger to society and there was not much to do about that. You have to be a knight of the cross to even try.
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I would say we are in agreement about the cooperation/competition situation.
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I don't think we can judge Harry or any parent saying that he or she would be willing to let the world burn to save his or her child. That isn't selfish, it is called being a parent... It was said at the height of frustration and emotion, only in Harry's case he possibly had the power to do it... The important thing is, he didn't do it and he found another way to save his child.
Pretty much how I feel about it. Very few atrocities I wouldn't commit to save my kids. And if someone took them? I'd leave a path of destruction in a straight line between me and them that was visible from orbit.
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Wow, this is a pretty deep thread. Count me in the "letting the world burn" category when it comes to saving my child. I bear no animosity towards Dresden for saying that. It does not cheapen his character in my eyes. As Mira says, the important thing is that Harry saved his daughter in the most efficient way possible. It did have unintended consequences with regards to the Fomer, but the war was never going to end cleanly no matter which side won.
As for Deirdre, she and Nic are clearly in the end justify the means camp. They sought to save the world by changing the world into one after their own image. Within the Nickelhead camp she will probably go into the books as a savior figure or martyr depending on who you ask. From the outside she will be regarded as a tragedy. Someone who spent their whole life within that "society" and had no real chance to choose a different path. Is it really a sacrifice if the choice is not really a choice at all?
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That's just how Harry interpreted it... I think 'the enemy' refers to Nemesis in this case... and is what they are trying to save the world from.
It's possible that he meant Nemesis, but I really don't think so. Reason being is that if the Outsiders make it inside, ALL of reality is in jeopardy. That would include Hades. It would also include Heaven/Hell. So, she isn't safe from the Enemy if that enemy is nemesis.
On the other hand, she is safe from TWG.That's not why she sacrificed herself. Her father just reminded her that she'd be safe from the adversary there as a silver lining (and the enemy or whatever was not defined). She gave her life to save the universe even knowing there is some sort of afterlife in that universe. I think she's the best character in the book. I'd actually read one of the short stories if it was about her and gave her perspective.
She was born into the life of Nic et al. She was just as much a victim as any other. Did she ever have a chance to be something else? I think not. Yet, even growing up as she did, she still chose to be the one who does the right thing as she saw it to save everything and everyone. Things aren't black and white.
I think Nick's goals were her primary reason for sacrificing herself, however I think avoiding Hell was part of the consideration. Otherwise, why not just sacrifice one of his toungless followers? They are fanatic enough to being willing to die for Nick.
No there was more there than just saving the world.
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While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing.
Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife. Further she KNEW there was an afterlife. Granted she didn't think it thought. Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.
Yeah, as pointed out, Nic lied to her about her fate in Hades verses if she died and had to face Judgement... Harry even bought into it until Hades assured him that she will get everything coming that she deserved...
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Yeah, as pointed out, Nic lied to her about her fate in Hades verses if she died and had to face Judgement... Harry even bought into it until Hades assured him that she will get everything coming that she deserved...
If she was doing good, she'd be going to the Elysian Fields. I think she's headed to Tartarus.
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It's possible that he meant Nemesis, but I really don't think so. Reason being is that if the Outsiders make it inside, ALL of reality is in jeopardy. That would include Hades. It would also include Heaven/Hell. So, she isn't safe from the Enemy if that enemy is nemesis.
They smatter both of them with all kinds of N referencing but they casually refer to TWG as 'the enemy'? Except they aren't trying to save us from TWG i'm sure.
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They smatter both of them with all kinds of N referencing but they casually refer to TWG as 'the enemy'? Except they aren't trying to save us from TWG i'm sure.
Are you sure? TWG IS the enemy of the fallen angels.
Now, I'm sure that they are trying to save the universe from the Outsiders, but ... 2-birds, 1-stone.
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"Enemy" and "Adversary" are often used to refer to Lucifer. Could be that he was sending Deirdre to Hades to prevent punishment from Lucy. Weren't the Fallen crammed into the Coins by Lucy because they were enemies?
Just, you know, throwing out another possible things to muddy the waters.
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I have always heard good vs evil is about who you sacrifice.
A) Good (period) will sacrifice parts of the self to improve the bigger picture.
B) Good idealists will sacrifice the self to improve the bigger picture.
C) Evil idealists will sacrifice others to improve the bigger picture.
D) Evil (period) will sacrifice others to improve the self.
Looking this way, Harry has shades of B & C during changes. This puts him below Charity, who seems to hang about more on the B side during Proven Guilty (of course so did Harry during that book).
Deirde in Skin Game is firmly at B, and hence, was better than Harry during Changes.
Nic in Skin Game is firmly at C, and hence is pretty nasty but not the worst. Aurora was here too, if she hadn't been so obviously wrong (we don't know about Nic yet).
Papa Raith seemed to be pretty much at D, as are most of the villains-du-jour (Warlocks, Sells, etcetera).
Category C makes for better villains, because you occassionally wonder if they have a point. Maybe Deirdre or Nicodemus really needed to die to save the world.
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Nicodemus was blinded by Anduriel. Nobody needed to die for that gate or at least somebody would have a chance. A necromancer or someone with a near dead experience could temporary get out of the body and return but Nicodemus did not even try.
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Well, Nico is one to go for dramatic effect.
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Nicodemus was blinded by Anduriel. Nobody needed to die for that gate or at least somebody would have a chance. A necromancer or someone with a near dead experience could temporary get out of the body and return but Nicodemus did not even try.
Yeah. A portable defibrillator and temporarily stopping her heart (which I'm positive her Fallen could've accomplished, considering Lash taught Harry to collapse the freaking bones in his hand) would've been a better idea.
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Yeah. A portable defibrillator and temporarily stopping her heart (which I'm positive her Fallen could've accomplished, considering Lash taught Harry to collapse the freaking bones in his hand) would've been a better idea.
Considering how Harry created a ghost in Grave Peril, and was revived, you are absolutely correct.
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Yeah. A portable defibrillator and temporarily stopping her heart (which I'm positive her Fallen could've accomplished, considering Lash taught Harry to collapse the freaking bones in his hand) would've been a better idea.
Definitely could have worked, but I would not be surprised if Hades has built it so that the shade/ghost/spirit is immediately sucked away for judgement which would prevent its return to the body.
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Definitely could have worked, but I would not be surprised if Hades has built it so that the shade/ghost/spirit is immediately sucked away for judgement which would prevent its return to the body.
I do not think so. The gates were not designed to kill everyone but to weed out those not powerful and versatile enough to wield the weapons they guarded. They were tests. There might have been something but it would not have been impossible.
A fire mage for fire, a winter knight for ice and a necromancer for dead, it would have been fitting.
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I do not think so. The gates were not designed to kill everyone but to weed out those not powerful and versatile enough to wield the weapons they guarded. They were tests. There might have been something but it would not have been impossible.
A fire mage for fire, a winter knight for ice and a necromancer for dead, it would have been fitting.
Except those magics aren't exactly created equal.
On the other hand, we have an example of an ectomance binding a soul back into its body, so maybe there's a more benign way than necromancy.
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Except those magics aren't exactly created equal.
On the other hand, we have an example of an ectomance binding a soul back into its body, so maybe there's a more benign way than necromancy.
Oh maybe morty could have done something just imagine the scene Nicodemus trying to recruit him.
And harry is a necromancer as well.
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I don't think we can judge Harry or any parent saying that he or she would be willing to let the world burn to save his or her child. That isn't selfish, it is called being a parent... It was said at the height of frustration and emotion, only in Harry's case he possibly had the power to do it... The important thing is, he didn't do it and he found another way to save his child.
I said that his attitude was not one that should be held up as the ideal for a society. Also, yes, letting the “world burn” for your child is the epitome of selfishness. As I said, though, I’d save my child first if I had to choose between him and a random child. But, who wouldn’t? Would I let the “world burn” for him, though? I hope not and, if I tried to, I’d hope someone would stop me. And, in my opinion, the important thing isn’t that Dresden didn’t do it (after the fact), but that he was willing to do it. That’s dark. The White Council might be right about Dresden.
An interesting tangent to this is how AI will choose the lesser bad in things like AI driven vehicles in accident scenarios; go straight and kill a child, a dog and a woman, swerve and kill three men and a woman. Does it just do maths? And, what about general or super AI? What types or moral dilemmas will it face?
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Ah trolley problems. On one track are the millions of people I don’t know and on the other track there is someone I like......
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I, Robot, the Will Smith movie, addressed this idea of AI and moral problems.
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Oh maybe morty could have done something just imagine the scene Nicodemus trying to recruit him.
And harry is a necromancer as well.
Yes, but Harry isn't good. He's the best we got, but he gets into pretty dark situations. He eventually ends up choosing the less-evil and eventually works back to good, but there's the dark phase too.
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Yeah, I would love to have seen Nick recruiting Morty. And Harry's proactive nature kicking in.
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We know shades can "attach" themselves to someone or something (Sir Stuart). I wonder how many shades Nic has collected over the millennia. Morty may go into ectomancer overload if he was in the vicinity of Nic.
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Oe give Morty a nice, large army that is not too fond of Nico.
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Oe give Morty a nice, large army of ghosts that is not too fond of Nico.
I fixed it for you.
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We know shades can "attach" themselves to someone or something (Sir Stuart). I wonder how many shades Nic has collected over the millennia. Morty may go into ectomancer overload if he was in the vicinity of Nic.
Stuart could attach himself to Morty because Morty gave him purpose as an ancestor/guardian spirit... I'm not so sure it would work the same with your murder vics, but I suppose he could have collected a 'following'.
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I fixed it for you.
Thank you, forgot that part.
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Ghosts did a number on Bianca and Corpse-taker, why not have some effect on Nico?
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They could have "attached" themselves to him for the purpose of seeing him defeated. It makes me wonder if Nic has some additional protection against ghosts.
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They could have "attached" themselves to him for the purpose of seeing him defeated. It makes me wonder if Nic has some additional protection against ghosts.
Not saying it's impossible, but that's not regular ghost behavior. Even the ghosts of the red court vic's simply groaned where they were, stuck as ghosts until Dresden went and gave them a bunch of real magic to fiddle with. He might have some hauntings of his own, but no more than Achilles and the restless spirits who watch him across the river styx when he sleeps.
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Not saying it's impossible, but that's not regular ghost behavior. Even the ghosts of the red court vic's simply groaned where they were, stuck as ghosts until Dresden went and gave them a bunch of real magic to fiddle with. He might have some hauntings of his own, but no more than Achilles and the restless spirits who watch him across the river styx when he sleeps.
And don't forget that the veil had been intentionally weakened by Mavra. That would give them more power.
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And don't forget that the veil had been intentionally weakened by Mavra. That would give them more power.
As a tangential topic, I don't know why (probably because I'm dumb), but I never connected Mavra to previous feats of necromancy before. Maybe it's because I tend to gloss over the first three books, but Mavra and Cowl were both in town during Grave Peril, when a whole bunch of necromancy was going on (specifically Corpsetaker's brand of necromancy, with ghosts and specters and such). Could this be when Cowl and Mavra both found out about the Word being spotted? Is that one of the reasons Cowl was there? Or...did one of them arrange for Bony Tony to find the storage unit? We're talking about a mere four or five years before Dead Beat, so I find it likely that Tony spent a bit of time lining things up and slowly liquidating what he found.
As yet another side note... did Cowl specifically bring up Bianca's assistant's ghost to drive her insane? Did... did he basically engineer the circumstances that kicked off the war?
Sorry, it's a bit of a tangent, but I find it interesting that Mavra and Cowl were both hanging around both times necromancy was used.
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Once is chance, twice can be coincidence, but three times is a pattern. I am betting the next time we see either Cowl or Mavra, the other will not be far behind.
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And don't forget, we have not seen Kumori every time we've seen cowl.
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And don't forget, we have not seen Kumori every time we've seen cowl.
If your referring to WN, perhaps including Elaine in the story satisfied that point lol?
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If your referring to WN, perhaps including Elaine in the story satisfied that point lol?
Well .... if Elaine = Kumori
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Well .... if Elaine = Kumori
She clearly was not there as Cowl's sidekick. If Elaine = Kumori then she must have broen connection with Cowl after Dead Beat.
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She clearly was not there as Cowl's sidekick. If Elaine = Kumori then she must have broen connection with Cowl after Dead Beat.
Or she isn't Always needed at Cowl's side.