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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Jearend on October 06, 2017, 01:57:11 AM
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Ok so since pretty much book one Harry has been saying that 'magical muscle' wise his pretty much at the top of the food chain. Is there a cap on how powerful a mortal wizard can be, if so how does that compare to other (non deitic) beings, e.g Eldest Gruff, and does there come a point where ones power forces one to transcend ones mortality/humanity?
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Only comment I can make on this is, the Woj on scions and if they ever twig to the fact they have a choice includes wizards. Only most all stay 'wizard', never realizing they have a choice at all. Others... like crazed Warlocks do choose to be something, but that alone doesn't just spontaneously make one stronger...
The Sidhe were a likely offshoot that choose more.
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I want to say that Jim has said that a suitably powerful enough wizard could rewrite reality. So there's that.
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Riiiigght! I forgot about that,thanks. I guess that means no cap. That helps a lot.
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It's not just raw power, it's also skill. Even if there is an upper limit on total energy one can channel, one can always learn better control of it to do more with it, as evidenced by Ivy at the aquarium
Imagine if Andre the Giant had the speed, skill and agility of Bruce Lee.
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It's not just raw power, it's also skill. Even if there is an upper limit on total energy one can channel, one can always learn better control of it to do more with it, as evidenced by Ivy at the aquarium
Imagine if Andre the Giant had the speed, skill and agility of Bruce Lee.
That's Harry in another 150 yrs.
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Imagine if Andre the Giant had the speed, skill and agility of Bruce Lee.
that would be scary.
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It's not just raw power, it's also skill. Even if there is an upper limit on total energy one can channel, one can always learn better control of it to do more with it, as evidenced by Ivy at the aquarium
Imagine if Andre the Giant had the speed, skill and agility of Bruce Lee.
That would be sportsmans-like... ::)
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Comment of the Day :)
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I'm not buying that a wizard can reach deity-level power without being a deity. Not if they want to remain human.
Bonus stats could get them there while retaining their humanity, like mantles and items, but then just possessing that much raw Power on their own? Seems unlikely, at least to me.
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I imagine there's an upper limit to how much power a wizard can generate on his own. The upper limit is probably very variable, so Harry probably has a higher upper limit than Molly would have, and it certainly goes up with age, so Harry at 150 can generate a lot more personal power than Harry as he is now.
I think there's probably no upper limit, however, to how much power they can use -- that power just has to come from somewhere else, like leylines, sacrifices, deals and so on. I think you get into reality warping with people who have made such deals or have otherwise found some way to supplement their own power.
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I think there's probably no upper limit, however, to how much power they can use -- that power just has to come from somewhere else, like leylines, sacrifices, deals and so on. I think you get into reality warping with people who have made such deals or have otherwise found some way to supplement their own power.
You don't think there's a throughput limit for mortals? Some threshold that can't be exceeded without destroying the mortal?
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You don't think there's a throughput limit for mortals? Some threshold that can't be exceeded without destroying the mortal?
Well, yes and no. There's certainly a limit to what a person can handle all at once. But we've seen through thaumaturgy that a wizard taking his time and preparing carefully can well exceed those limits. This is probably also something that scales with a wizard's age, personal power and experience.
Let's for the sake of argument say that a spell's energy can be measured in Thaums as a unit.
An apprentice might be able to throughput only 1 or 2 thaums at a time, and might take a few minutes to do each. While any spell is theoretically doable, something that's 100 thaums would end up being an arduous marathon task, effectively putting it out of his normal reach.
Someone like Harry, a full wizard with some experience, might be able to do 5 thaums/minute, making that 100-thaum spell difficult, but but a 20 minute task.
Say someone on Ebenezer can do 20 every 30 seconds, putting the 100-thaum spell in at only 2 minutes 30 seconds. At this point, he'd be able to do a 1,000-thaum spell with the time and effort it takes Harry to do the 100-thaum spell.
And so on.
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Well, yes and no. There's certainly a limit to what a person can handle all at once. But we've seen through thaumaturgy that a wizard taking his time and preparing carefully can well exceed those limits. This is probably also something that scales with a wizard's age, personal power and experience.
Let's for the sake of argument say that a spell's energy can be measured in Thaums as a unit.
An apprentice might be able to throughput only 1 or 2 thaums at a time, and might take a few minutes to do each. While any spell is theoretically doable, something that's 100 thaums would end up being an arduous marathon task, effectively putting it out of his normal reach.
Someone like Harry, a full wizard with some experience, might be able to do 5 thaums/minute, making that 100-thaum spell difficult, but but a 20 minute task.
Say someone on Ebenezer can do 20 every 30 seconds, putting the 100-thaum spell in at only 2 minutes 30 seconds. At this point, he'd be able to do a 1,000-thaum spell with the time and effort it takes Harry to do the 100-thaum spell.
And so on.
I agree that experience expands capacity, but even that has to have a limit. And we're talking about channeling external power versus possessing that power internally. I'm sure they can expand the tank, but not to near-deity levels, which is what's being asked. There's got to be a limit before mortality is exceeded.
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2009 Lexington signing:
Q: What are the upper levels of magic?
A: There are none, if the person has enough juice. If someone was strong enough, they could completely rewrite reality.
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2009 Lexington signing:
Q: What are the upper levels of magic?
A: There are none, if the person has enough juice. If someone was strong enough, they could completely rewrite reality.
But would they be mortal?
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Also per woj, wizards get better, Not 'stronger' over time. So either you have a whopping gas tank or you don't. It's more akin from going from diesel, to v8, to a v4 to a hybrid. Better efficiency of what you have available.
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So there are two variables.
1) Source of power -- presumably a wizard could tap with the right ritual/assistance an extremely powerful ley line to get the power equivalent to that of a god, although i doubt any wizard would have that level of power "internally".
2) Effectiveness in utilizing the power - presumably a wizard's skill will determine how efficiently the can control/manage/use that power. In changes, it was clear that a big power source is more difficult to control, but clearly a very skill wizard can handle a LOT of power.
I am not arguing against what JB said. With sufficient power, a wizard can rewrite reality. Certainly a wizard's careful application of magic in a specific use case could match what (for example) Mab could do. That is certainly god-like power.
But recognize the difference.
1) The wizard can match Mab's power with very careful preparation toward a specific end. Mab can wing it... So Mab's ability to display godlike power in many different ways in a relatively short period of time is an order of magnitude better than any wizard could do.
2) The wizard is relying on an external power source. Mab is not. Presumably Mab could also draw on external sources and thus again exceed the wizard.
3) Mab is fairly weak on the god scale. Mother Winter is an order of magnitude stronger than Mab and she is maybe average on the god scale.
4) remaking reality is a vague statement. Uriel - for example - can destroy galaxies. I would argue that Uriel can remake reality on a lot larger scale than any wizard could possible manage.
5) ANY individual can remake reality if they apply just the right force, at just the right time, in just the right place when conditions are in perfect balance. I suspect that is why mortal will decide the fate of the universe. The gods and godlike horrors are in balance. So despite their enormous power relative to all of mortal kind, the mortals are the only beings really free to tip the oh so very carefully balanced scale.
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3 is an opinion bordering on a falsity. We KNOW MW is a multidimensional cosmic powerhouse and considering all of the NN is afraid of her shears, so MW isn't an average on the god scale.
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3 is an opinion bordering on a falsity. We KNOW MW is a multidimensional cosmic powerhouse and considering all of the NN is afraid of her shears, so MW isn't an average on the god scale.
Sure Mother Winter is a cosmic powerhouse. But that does not tell us anything about the other gods. They might also be cosmic powerhouses too.
Evidence: Many indications in the books
* Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon. In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful. And there are many gods and many pantheons.
* Many references to gods as beings that touch many worlds. Some very powerful gods might only very lightly (or not at all) touch the Dresden world. That this the whole point of the Oblivion war - to prevent bad gods from touching our world. If they barely touch our world, then the effective power they can apply in our world must be a lot smaller. That does not mean the god or goddess is (overall) weaker.
* No evidence at all that Mother Winter is more powerful than major gods - unless you argue that the lords of outer night were gods. There is clearly evidence of lesser godlike beings like Odin (who accepted growing weaker for more ability to influence the mortal world), lords of outer night, Earlking, etc. But none of these claimed to be a major god.
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Sure Mother Winter is a cosmic powerhouse. But that does not tell us anything about the other gods. They might also be cosmic powerhouses too.
Evidence: Many indications in the books
* Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon. In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful. And there are many gods and many pantheons.
* Many references to gods as beings that touch many worlds. Some very powerful gods might only very lightly (or not at all) touch the Dresden world. That this the whole point of the Oblivion war - to prevent bad gods from touching our world. If they barely touch our world, then the effective power they can apply in our world must be a lot smaller. That does not mean the god or goddess is (overall) weaker.
* No evidence at all that Mother Winter is more powerful than major gods - unless you argue that the lords of outer night were gods. There is clearly evidence of lesser godlike beings like Odin (who accepted growing weaker for more ability to influence the mortal world), lords of outer night, Earlking, etc. But none of these claimed to be a major god.
Besides Hades, which major god have we seen? Hades was, perhaps, greater than Hecate. But MW isn't just Hecate, and she by herself isn't even Hecate. She's also the unmaker, Atropos(a literal fate who had power over other gods in Greek Lore too, including Hades) a fae Mother, ect. ect. Considering Hades has no following and no new masks that we know of i'd tend to give more to MW anyway(and no proof Hades is multidimensional either btw)
*plus one God to compare her to doesn't make her 'middling' by any statistical claim you could create statistical 'lies' with either. Not trying to knock your idea, but your basically supplying her middling power based off of what we don't know, when what we DO know implies something different.
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Hades may have been greater once; but, is he still as powerful as in the past? Mab is very much an active force. Hades seems semi-retired.
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Masks can alter how powerful a being is. Vadderung as Odin may be more powerful than Kringle.
In the pantheons, all the gods draw from the same source. How close they are to that source determines how powerful they are. Zeus is in control of that source, so he is the most powerful, Poseidon and Hades close behind. Hecate is farther from Zeus, so she has less access to that power source.
In her MW mask, she is far closer to the Winter power source, so she is way more powerful, more like Zeus. If Hecate went against Hades on his turf she would lose. If Hades went against MW on her turf, he would lose.
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I imagine there's an upper limit to how much power a wizard can generate on his own. The upper limit is probably very variable, so Harry probably has a higher upper limit than Molly would have, and it certainly goes up with age, so Harry at 150 can generate a lot more personal power than Harry as he is now.
I think there's probably no upper limit, however, to how much power they can use -- that power just has to come from somewhere else, like leylines, sacrifices, deals and so on. I think you get into reality warping with people who have made such deals or have otherwise found some way to supplement their own power.
Oh, that got confirmed?
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Oh, that got confirmed?
Isn't there already a woj to the opposite? can I once more call upon TheCuriousFan for Woj assistance?
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Oh, that got confirmed?
I thought it was just common knowledge about how wizards worked.
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Now that Harry has used magic in this book without and tailismans, will he be a stronger/more adept wizard with his magic in the next book?”
Harry really hasn’t gotten all that much stronger since the series started. He’s gotten more efficient, more skilled, and smarter, and inasmuch as that makes him more powerful, that will continue. I mean, what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger…
Oh wait.
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Isn't there already a woj to the opposite? can I once more call upon TheCuriousFan for Woj assistance?
I don't check all threads all the time but sure.
I thought it was just common knowledge about how wizards worked.
It's not confirmed anywhere though, I've looked in the past since I've argued that it's a thing.
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That doesn't really answer it. That's talking about Harry from the start of the series to now, only about 10 years. In a wizard's lifetime terms, that's like saying, "Harry at 9 isn't all that much taller than Harry was at 8."
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That doesn't really answer it. That's talking about Harry from the start of the series to now, only about 10 years. In a wizard's lifetime terms, that's like saying, "Harry at 9 isn't all that much taller than Harry was at 8."
Likewise, the opposite is like saying Harry was 4' at 8 and 6'9" at 18, so he should have been 12'3" by SG.
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Likewise, the opposite is like saying Harry was 4' at 8 and 6'9" at 18, so he should have been 12'3" by SG.
Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.
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Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.
Is that raw power or just being much more efficient than Harry? Harry has mentioned in multiple books how his magic "sloshes" out because he's not that efficient. Jim has mentioned how powerful belief is, stating that a truly dark wizard can do some crazy stuff because they believe they can. Harry may have just as much, if not more raw power. He's just less experienced, less efficient, and his belief probably isn't as strong.
Course I think Jim said something about how a wizards power grows until they are around 50, and then stays there for hundreds of years? Harry might be a decade or so from his full, raw power.
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Granted. There's almost certainly an upper limit. But we've seen older wizards do feats of sheer power that Harry simply isn't capable of (like the Merlin making a ward on the fly to hold back the entire Red Court), and he's considered one of the strongest in his generation. He's been compared to Ebenezer at his age, and Ebenezer is distinctly more powerful than Harry.
Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.
Is that raw power or just being much more efficient than Harry? Harry has mentioned in multiple books how his magic "sloshes" out because he's not that efficient. Jim has mentioned how powerful belief is, stating that a truly dark wizard can do some crazy stuff because they believe they can. Harry may have just as much, if not more raw power. He's just less experienced, less efficient, and his belief probably isn't as strong.
Course I think Jim said something about how a wizards power grows until they are around 50, and then stays there for hundreds of years? Harry might be a decade or so from his full, raw power.
That was talking about how they age until about 50 or so and stay there.
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Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.
huh?
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Or maybe his generation just sucks, I guess that's the other explanation for why the strongest of his generation is only top 30 or so.
And here I thought Harry delivered a challenge to the entire Senior Council and showed. And the Senior Council chose to deploy 3 of its members to handle him. Almost as if they would believe he's not all that bad, certainly more than just top 30.
Given natural progression from getting more efficient, Harry might well be stronger than any on the Senior Council (although by such strength levels, skill in a particular theme is more critical).
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I can describe it in painting terms. Harry is drawing from a 5 gallon bucket, but right now he only has a 24" roller to apply it with. Whereas Molly is only drawing from a 1/2 quart can, but she is using an airbrush. Harry is great at painting a house, Molly can do a portrait.
Ebenezer has the 5 gallon bucket and a variety of brushes and rollers.
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huh?
It's a joke.
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It's a joke.
oh ok lol
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I'm pretty sure there's an absolute upper limit for how much energy a human can handle. Not his tank, or his skill, but how much they can handle flowing through them at once. I'm looking at it like a lightbulb. It can channel energy pretty well, but eventually that filament just pops. I have a feeling at some point we're going to get a look at a Wizard or Warlock who goes too far, tries to channel/hold/manipulate too much energy and either catches fire, their head explodes, or just winks out of existence. We saw before at Chichen Itza where Harry pulled in the energy from the Ley line to power the Earth spell, and felt pressure in his head, and I think he felt overheated, although I can't be sure as I don't have my copy of Changes on hand. Shouldn't have stored my books with the Army. Gonna take forever to get them back.
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I'm pretty sure there's an absolute upper limit for how much energy a human can handle. Not his tank, or his skill, but how much they can handle flowing through them at once. I'm looking at it like a lightbulb. It can channel energy pretty well, but eventually that filament just pops. I have a feeling at some point we're going to get a look at a Wizard or Warlock who goes too far, tries to channel/hold/manipulate too much energy and either catches fire, their head explodes, or just winks out of existence. We saw before at Chichen Itza where Harry pulled in the energy from the Ley line to power the Earth spell, and felt pressure in his head, and I think he felt overheated, although I can't be sure as I don't have my copy of Changes on hand. Shouldn't have stored my books with the Army. Gonna take forever to get them back.
My guess is that when a Wizard reaches the threshold you mention that it's around the time they become more... Probably via Mantle which allows them to channel even more. Most likely because anyone who reaches this limit is not likely to reach it, and be happy with it. They will reach further.
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Yeah, the way I understand it a wizard is born with a "raw talent/power" baseline, some are greater than others.. Harry was born powerful, just as some people are born with a high I.Q. But that only carries a wizard so far, he/she also needs to study, train, and gain experience to reach their full potential, not unlike someone who is born very intelligent. As Eb pointed out to Harry when he took on Molly to train, doing so would make him stronger simply because he suddenly will find he has to work at it... And so it has, in areas where he was weak before, veils for example before were barely passable, now they are effective.. His over all strength has improved because he has been forced to study to keep ahead and teach Molly. This has worked in other non-talent ways as well, Harry can now understand and speak in Latin decently.
One thing that has held Harry back before he took on Molly was his own admitted laziness.. He did pretty well without breaking a sweat, so he simply didn't....
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Yeah, the way I understand it a wizard is born with a "raw talent/power" baseline, some are greater than others.. Harry was born powerful, just as some people are born with a high I.Q. But that only carries a wizard so far, he/she also needs to study, train, and gain experience to reach their full potential, not unlike someone who is born very intelligent. As Eb pointed out to Harry when he took on Molly to train, doing so would make him stronger simply because he suddenly will find he has to work at it... And so it has, in areas where he was weak before, veils for example before were barely passable, now they are effective.. His over all strength as improved because he has been forced to study to keep ahead and teach Molly. This has worked in other non-talent ways as well, Harry can now understand and speak in Latin decently.
One thing that has held Harry back before he took on Molly was his own admitted laziness.. He did pretty well without breaking a sweat, so he simply didn't....
Exactly. Jim has said that in a lot of ways Molly is a better wizard than Harry. That's not on her raw power, but she's sharper than Harry. Harry's raw power combined with great efficiency at this point in the story would make him overpowered, something Jim wants to avoid. Plus this gives Harry growing room.
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Exactly. Jim has said that in a lot of ways Molly is a better wizard than Harry. That's not on her raw power, but she's sharper than Harry. Harry's raw power combined with great efficiency at this point in the story would make him overpowered, something Jim wants to avoid. Plus this gives Harry growing room.
Mmm my yes... What I love is since Harry saw Ivy spitfire in SmF he knows just how far he could he really go compared to what he'd seen before. Harry with that kind of skill is mindboggling, and yet fun :)
I'd like to see him get pushed more on that front, a nice 3-1 wizards duel with Harry slugging it out with that Wiley trait lol.
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* Hades refers to Lady/queen/Mother as Hecate - which is a fellow goddess of the Olympian pantheon. In that panethon,, Hades was considered far more powerful. And there are many gods and many pantheons.
They originated as Hecate, but they haven't been sitting on their hands since then.
WOJ (https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/58oz87/spoilers_all_the_full_effects_of_darkhallow/):
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
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I've been avoiding doing this because I know it's kind of an annoying habit, but what we're basically looking at here is the game's mechanics for Thaumaturgy. The relevant bit is that, when doing a spell, a wizard can safely channel energy based on his or her Conviction stat, which in someone of Harry's ability is going to be 5 or even 6. There's a discipline roll involved, but Conviction sets the limit for the most they can move through them at any one time. The way it works is, power up to their Conviction they can call up without taking any stress, and it's one stress per unit of power beyond that.
Normally, a character can have at most 4 stress boxes; so a wizard with 6 in Conviction could channel up to 10 units of power at once without taking a consequence. Consequences come in four strengths (2,4,6,8), and you can take multiples at a time; in addition, having a 5 or more in conviction nets you an extra consequence at the lowest level. Effectively adding 22 units to that max of 10; so, a wizard of Harry's raw strength can, in one go, take on 32 units of power at once. This is a little less powerful than the game book's write-up of the heart-exploding spell, and that spell is engineered to overcome every possible defense a character could have.
Of course, that's wizards of Harry's level. The newest game book, Paranet Papers, adds a couple powers that can make this even crazier. Mythic Mental Toughness adds 6 stress boxes, so the most now is 38. But at that point, the wizard is all but crippled and a slight breeze will finish him off. One unit higher than that, and they're just plain dead.
Like I said, there are some other wrinkles to the system (that discipline roll, for instance; in order to channel 38 shifts into a spell in one go, you'd have to roll a 38, which is ... unlikely. So, effectively, to cram a spell like that into one shot, a wizard would end up taking two hits bigger than the heart exploding spell. Results are almost certainly not pretty), but that's the best way I can quantify what kind of stress a high-powered wizard can take in channeling energy in one blast.
And that, my friends, is why these guys take their darned time for rituals.
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2009 Lexington signing:
Q: What are the upper levels of magic?
A: There are none, if the person has enough juice. If someone was strong enough, they could completely rewrite reality.
Now that Harry has used magic in this book without and tailismans, will he be a stronger/more adept wizard with his magic in the next book?”
Harry really hasn’t gotten all that much stronger since the series started. He’s gotten more efficient, more skilled, and smarter, and inasmuch as that makes him more powerful, that will continue. I mean, what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger…
Oh wait.
Given these two WOJs, here's what I think.
A wizard with a large enough tank can change reality. There are different ways that could be done. Everything from "warping" reality to the point that it changes permanently, to going back in time and changing "reality".
However, it also takes skill and that comes with time.
All that being said, it does not answer the question about Transcending Mortality.
I don't think either of those WOJs answers THIS question.
I don't think the simple use of magic, no matter how much you use, will cause you to jump up into divinity.
I think that a wizard's ability to do god-level magic stems more from the nature of free will than some transubstantiation.
All of the god and god-like beings we've seen, and all of the WOJs that apply, all say that with greater power comes more and more limitations to the use of that power ... except for Wizards.
A wizard can continue to gather power and retain their free will. So they are the most dangerous power-slingers in the universe.
Uriel CAN destroy galaxies, but doesn't.
Mother Winter is pretty much limited in that she can't even come to the mortal world without risking destroying it.
Mab has stated her limited nature.
We've witnessed some of Molly's limitation.
So, I don't believe that a Wizard would automagically become a god by simply sliging about mortal magic.
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wizard can continue to gather power and retain their free will. So they are the most dangerous power-slingers in the universe.
Natural death seems their only downfall from slowly gathering power through skill/will. The Denarians who have lived longer, like Tessa show this well, as does Ivy who has the raw skill of generations of Archives.
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As history has shown, the dominant limitation of power is how far a person is willing to go and what they are willing to do to achieve that power. Cowl could have been a god if he had just killed Harry.