ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Froklsnt on October 04, 2017, 08:14:04 PM

Title: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 04, 2017, 08:14:04 PM
This idea just occurred to me during another discussion on the forums. I think a fair bit of evidence, taken together, suggests the possibility that Id Harry and Mab struck a bargain at the beginning of Small Favor. To be clear, by "Id Harry" (IH) I mean the version of Harry in his subconscious, dressed all in black.

First off, was this even possible? Let's examine means, motive, and opportunity:

Means: Molly states in SG that she talked with Id Harry when she was in his head getting Bonnie out, so it seems entirely possible to me that Mab could have met with him when she was in Harry's head.
Motive: IH has shown three primary motives to date: Harry's survival, getting laid, and "protect the offspring." Mab certainly could help with those, by granting him the power of the Winter Knight. And it has the added benefit of making Harry's Id impulses much louder and more powerful
Opportunity: Mab has been inside Harry's head at least once undeniably, at the beginning of Small Favor, after which he cannot remember his blasting rod.

So, it could have happened. What's the evidence that it did? The original basis for this theory grows out of an idea by Ms Duck that has a "Strong Evidence" label on theories list, and can be found in post 2 here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452190.html#msg1452190).

(click to show/hide)

tl;dr: Harry completely ignores Little Chicago in Turn Coat. He describes it as having a "tarp" over it, which is precisely the same language used to describe how Harry's blasting rod appears in his mind when he tries to remember it after it was taken from him by Mab.

In TC, right after the confrontation with Shagnasty at Raith Manor, Harry was down in his lab beating himself senseless over how he could find Thomas, and never thinks to try Little Chicago:

Quote from: Cold Days - Chapter 29
Two hours and a half a dozen attempted tracking spell later, I snarled and slapped a stack of notepads off a corner of a table in my sub-basement laboratory. They thwacked against a wall beneath Bob the Skulls's shelf, and fell to the concrete floor. "It was to be expected." Bob the Skull said very quietly.

He put time into trying to find Thomas with magic, but neglected to use his single most valuable tool for this sort of problem. He doesn't even mention it as an option, or even acknowledge its existence while running down a description of the room; only how there's a long table covered in a tarp. Ms Duck points out how out of character that is, Harry is immensely proud of LC and name drops it in every other book it exists in. Odder still, Bob is there with him, and he doesn't suggest using it either. It's had quite a few successful outings by TC, so why not?

We also have the "ice pick" headaches when Harry interacts with Mouse in the same period. Mouse also could have found Thomas (This is confirmed by Mouse later on). We know that the ice pick headaches are later identified as the psychic trauma of Bonnie straining in his head as she grows. In both cases, something going on in Harry's head shakes him off the quickest paths he could take to finding Thomas and Shagnasty. But how? And why?

As Ms Duck stated above, the upside of these "delays" is that Harry doesn't confront Shagnasty without substantial backup (and likely end up dead), and he shortly thereafter conceives of his plan to have a sanctum invocation on Demonreach. Both of these developments serve Id Harry's interests. They also serve Mab's goals, amassing power to her would-be Knight.

So, let's imagine a scene, at the beginning of Small Favor. Mab has entered Harry's mind, and is approached by Id Harry, who has the relatively recent task of watching over the newborn Bonnie. And Id Harry and Mab begin to deal. IH wants Harry's immediate survival, protection for Bonnie, and a chance to get laid. Mab wants Harry as Winter Knight, and also wants to earn Harry yet more power by guiding him into becoming Warden of Demonreach. So, the bargain is struck.

Id Harry will guide Harry ever closer to taking Mab up on her offer of Winter Knighthood, and towards a sanctum invocation on Demonreach. Both goals will aid in Harry's survival, amass power to help protect Bonnie, and being WK definitely ups the chances that Harry will finally have some sex. More generally, the WK mantle will increase IH's power over what Harry does, as it encourages Harry to pursue his more animalistic, base tendencies. To enable IH to help further with these goals, Mab will give IH the ability to hide Harry's memories from himself, as represented by the snowflake pin he now wears on his lapel. IH is responsible for hiding the blasting rod for most of SmF, at Mab's behest as part of this deal. He also prevents Harry from confronting Shagnasty directly in TC, by blocking out Little Chicago at a crucial moment and making sure Bonnie triggers a headache when Harry goes for Mouse. Instead he puts the idea in his head to take Morgan to Demonreach, and to perform a Sanctum Invocation. He is Harry's intuition, after all.

Mab will work towards Harry becoming the WK as well, and will see to it that Bonnie will be protected. She compels / arranges with Bob to get a vessel crafted for Bonnie, and to not point out how Harry is ignoring Little Chicago in TC. Furthermore, she helps guide Molly towards the skill level and power she will need to perform the "delivery."

The only bit of hand-waving I see in any of this is the timing on Bob being clued in / compelled, not to talk about LC. Mab could've done that at any point in TC though, Lea was still a Sidhe-sicle after all, so Mab could come and go from the lab as she pleased through Lea's garden, assuming she meant no harm. And Harry only goes into the lab the one time in that whole case.

It seems to hold together. You may begin poking holes, let's see how long it lasts.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 04, 2017, 08:44:30 PM
I prefer the idea that Id, as the more practical portion of Harry's personality, knew that he'd eventually need Mab's help and power.  So when they encountered one another in Harry's head in SmF, they struck a deal.  Id would retrieve Namshiel's coin for her, and Mab would owe Id a favor, even while Harry still owed her one.

Then, on the island, Id took control of one hand without Harry realizing, retrieved the coin from Michael's bag while they all crouched in the lighthouse, and slipped it into a pocket, which he made Harry forget about.  All of which is possible, given that Id has controlled Harry in the past (grabbing Lasciel's coin rather than picking the kid up) and saw Mab steal memories (SmF) and control Harry's hand (SK).

Finally, when Harry lost time in the chapel at the end, Id met with Mab, giving her the coin in return for the snowflake pin that we saw in SG. A pin that signifies a debt, similar to the leaf pin gifted by Lily in PG.

So when Harry came out of his headache on the chapel floor, and Mab mentioned repaying all of her debts, she was talking to both of them.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 05, 2017, 12:41:09 AM
I hadn't made the connection between the pin and the Summer broach... Hmm... The descriptions of fine wrought detail are very similar. Tying in the lost Denari is a good observation too, that is a real possibility.

I'm not sure the ideas need to be mutually exclusive. It seems reasonable to me that the two may have more of an ongoing relationship than a one-off deal. The pin wasn't vital to the theory in the OP,  just a bit of corroborating evidence.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: raidem on October 05, 2017, 01:13:46 AM
Namschiels coin was confirmed on the helicopter gryffn.  Or at least somebody's was.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Snark Knight on October 05, 2017, 01:20:51 AM
If Id Harry did bargain Namshiel's coin for a favour, why keep it for a future marker instead of check off Mab's third marker over Harry right there and then?
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: jonas on October 05, 2017, 01:46:52 AM
I prefer the idea that Id, as the more practical portion of Harry's personality, knew that he'd eventually need Mab's help and power.  So when they encountered one another in Harry's head in SmF, they struck a deal.  Id would retrieve Namshiel's coin for her, and Mab would owe Id a favor, even while Harry still owed her one.

Then, on the island, Id took control of one hand without Harry realizing, retrieved the coin from Michael's bag while they all crouched in the lighthouse, and slipped it into a pocket, which he made Harry forget about.  All of which is possible, given that Id has controlled Harry in the past (grabbing Lasciel's coin rather than picking the kid up) and saw Mab steal memories (SmF) and control Harry's hand (SK).

Finally, when Harry lost time in the chapel at the end, Id met with Mab, giving her the coin in return for the snowflake pin that we saw in SG. A pin that signifies a debt, similar to the leaf pin gifted by Lily in PG.

So when Harry came out of his headache on the chapel floor, and Mab mentioned repaying all of her debts, she was talking to both of them.
I would point out that there is mention of Harry's burned hand being able to react instinctively to snatch a coin on the move when Harry cannot otherwise use said hand properly. Right after he vacates his willpower/displaces his mind into it.
That's actually something they can do with a rubber hand and wall, trick your mind into taking 'ownership' of a false hand to the point you feel it like your own. Id Harry coulda moved in in the absent moments.
I like this theory, never heard this one before..
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 02:56:51 AM
I'm not sure the ideas need to be mutually exclusive. It seems reasonable to me that the two may have more of an ongoing relationship than a one-off deal. The pin wasn't vital to the theory in the OP,  just a bit of corroborating evidence.
Agreed.  Id's motivation in either is to make sure Harry (himself, really) has access to the resources he'll need. 

Namschiels coin was confirmed on the helicopter gryffn.  Or at least somebody's was.
Are you sure?  I thought they mentioned the hand was still in there, but I don't believe there was mention of the coin itself.

Unless there's some other source I'm unfamiliar with.

If Id Harry did bargain Namshiel's coin for a favour, why keep it for a future marker instead of check off Mab's third marker over Harry right there and then?
Because Harry unconsciously knows that things are getting worse and worse, and Mab's offer might be needed one day.  Which it was.  (Of course, if his debt is cleared, then he could use it to be free of the mantle, but it wouldn't help Molly, so... push, for now)

Not to mention that, on an unconscious level, he knows that Mab wants him for some reason, and won't just let him go.  Bargaining in that manner, where he has a get-out-of-jail-free card, keeps Mab from doing something drastic (the Table), maintains his self-required excuse for dealing with her, and leaves her offer on the table.

I would point out that there is mention of Harry's burned hand being able to react instinctively to snatch a coin on the move when Harry cannot otherwise use said hand properly. Right after he vacates his willpower/displaces his mind into it.
That's actually something they can do with a rubber hand and wall, trick your mind into taking 'ownership' of a false hand to the point you feel it like your own. Id Harry coulda moved in in the absent moments.
I like this theory, never heard this one before..
Thanks.  I float it every once in a while, but it's not as popular as the others, which have Marcone or Hendricks possessing the coin in one way or another.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 05, 2017, 08:49:32 AM
Sometimes ID Harry feels like a seperate entity.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 10:58:51 AM
Sometimes ID Harry feels like a seperate entity.
I don't think he is, but I do think that he's a result of Harry's exposure to dark magic.  If you'll note, those that are touched by dark magic (Sells, Denton, etc) are very Id in personality.

My guess is that the dark magic corruption is a spiritual contagion (Lily's words) that somehow suppresses the parts of the person that care.  An Id unchecked, which seems to be infinitely more likely to be corrupted by power.

But in Harry's case, instead of succumbing, he somehow partitioned part of his psyche.  It's not removed like Evil Bob, but is instead in a mental isolation.

How he could do that, I don't know.  Maybe it has something to do with being a Starborn.  Maybe Mab or Lea helped him without his remembering.  Maybe it's something else.

Either way, Id is at once part of the whole and a unique manifestation.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: forumghost on October 05, 2017, 12:44:04 PM
Sometimes ID Harry feels like a seperate entity.

Yeah, I feel that people treat him as more of a separate entity then he actually is- eg "ID Harry picked up Lasciel's coin"

No, Harry picked up Lasciel's coin, because he was driven to do so by his baser desires/darker instincts, which ID Harry represents.

There's not literally another guy in Harry's head bodyjacking him- At least I hope not. Because that would be dumb.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 05, 2017, 02:02:53 PM
Namschiels coin was confirmed on the helicopter gryffn.  Or at least somebody's was.

Just re-listened to the pertinent sections. The hand goes into Michael's pouch, and hasn't been seen since. The next time they looked for it was at the hospital, at which time it was missing. The purposed theory in the book in that someone took it in the helicopter, as they got Michael out of his gear. But no one is stated to have seen it at that time. That would put the suspect list as Sanya, Marcone, Hendricks, Gard, and Luccio (Ivy was unconscious). However, there is a period of relative calm in the remnants of the lighthouse, before the helicopter arrives, and Harry is there. Harry swiping it is at least possible. Michael still had his pouch at the hospital (Sanya says so), so it would have needed to be one very smooth pickpocket job, but it's possible. Maybe while Michael was putting the harness on.

The snowflake pin being a Winter boon fits so well that it's headcanon for me now, which means the theory in the OP needs some reworking. The coin fits very nicely too. However, that part doesn't explain near as many odd loose ends as the rest of the theory did.  So I might modify the idea to include two meetings.  The first meeting happened as stated above, at the beginning of the book, but the pin is no longer part of the deal. Instead, Mab visits with Id Harry at the end of the book, tells her of his extra gift, unplanned, and is given the boon.

One detail of Griffyn's thinking I disagree with though. I don't think that Id Harry would have any desire to one day be rid of the mantle of Winter Knight. For one thing, he doesn't plan that far ahead. But moreover, why would he want to stop being Winter Knight? How is that not a near-total good thing from his perspective? It gives him more say in Harry's actions, gives him more power and better ability to protect his children. Resentment of Mab may come eventually, but as I said, it isn't in the Id's nature to think that far down the road.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 05, 2017, 02:11:34 PM
I found one other potential issue with the theory in the OP, though it might be alright. Mab's words about what she did with Harry's fire magic:

Quote from: Small Favor - Chapter 46
"The I was right." I said, accepting [the blasting rod] "You took it, and you took the memory of it happening."
"Yes"

"Why?"
"Because I deemed it proper." She replied, as if speaking to a rather slow-witted child. "You would have risked your own life, and my purpose, to protect your precious mortals had I not taken your fire from you."

The OP theory asserts that the actual hiding of the memories was performed by Id Harry, acting on Mab's behalf. Are her above statements still true enough if that is the case? I'd say yes, but it isn't cut and dry.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 02:24:15 PM
Yeah, I feel that people treat him as more of a separate entity then he actually is- eg "ID Harry picked up Lasciel's coin"

No, Harry picked up Lasciel's coin, because he was driven to do so by his baser desires/darker instincts, which ID Harry represents.

There's not literally another guy in Harry's head bodyjacking him- At least I hope not. Because that would be dumb.
I look at it this way.  Imagine that the human psyche is an operation system.  The supposed S-Ego, Ego, and Id are all part of the same OS, with no real separation.  The person doesn't work without the whole package, and no part of the package can run things on its own.

But in the case of dark magic contagion, there is a separation.  The corruption partitions off the Id, making a kernel OS of it.  It's still part of the whole, but there's a division.  Then, the corruption works at deteriorating the moral portion of the psyche, leaving only the Id behind.  In that state, a good family man would lose his emotional ties to family.  In that state, a moral and honorable cop would lose his sense of right and wrong.

Only, in Harry's case, he somehow avoided the moral deterioration.  He was left with the partition in place, to the point that the Id can run things on its own at times, if only in the background.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 02:31:11 PM
One detail of Griffyn's thinking I disagree with though. I don't think that Id Harry would have any desire to one day be rid of the mantle of Winter Knight. For one thing, he doesn't plan that far ahead. But moreover, why would he want to stop being Winter Knight? How is that not a near-total good thing from his perspective? It gives him more say in Harry's actions, gives him more power and better ability to protect his children. Resentment of Mab may come eventually, but as I said, it isn't in the Id's nature to think that far down the road.
Remember that Id was open to the idea of using Lash, but not open to the idea of being controlled or manipulated by her.  He wanted the power, but didn't want the shackles.

He wouldn't want Mab's shackles any more than he wanted Lash's.  In his reasoning, the boon from Mab could get him out of being WK, should he feel like that must happen.  If Harry became the WK, and somewhere along the way realized deep down (all the way to Id) that he could not do that anymore, he'd have an out.

Or it could be held back for something else.  A debt from the likes of Mab is valuable, even if you don't know exactly what you'd claim when you accept it.  Nico had no idea that what he'd ask of Mab when he gained a favor from her; he just knew it was valuable.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 02:33:57 PM
I found one other potential issue with the theory in the OP, though it might be alright. Mab's words about what she did with Harry's fire magic:

The OP theory asserts that the actual hiding of the memories was performed by Id Harry, acting on Mab's behalf. Are her above statements still true enough if that is the case? I'd say yes, but it isn't cut and dry.
Two things.

First, I think it was Mab that manipulated Harry's memories.  She's got the ability to run roughshod over him.

Second, I think even if Id had been the one to actually conceal the memories, Mab could still say that she took them from Harry, as long as Id was acting in her name.  It's like how Harry was responsible for Aurora's death, even though she was killed by dew drop faeries.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 05, 2017, 02:50:45 PM
Two things.

First, I think it was Mab that manipulated Harry's memories.  She's got the ability to run roughshod over him.

Second, I think even if Id had been the one to actually conceal the memories, Mab could still say that she took them from Harry, as long as Id was acting in her name.  It's like how Harry was responsible for Aurora's death, even though she was killed by dew drop faeries.

I agree with you that someone acting on Mab's behalf is the same as saying Mab did it. It's just how she did it.

The reason for suggesting that Id Harry was responsible for the memory manipulation is that it explains what was going on with Little Chicago and Mouse in TC without Mab having to meddle with Harry again directly. I find it compelling to match the blasting rod under a tarp in his mind in SmF with the tarp described as over the table with LC in TC. But he remembers LC in the Side Jobs stories between SmF and TC, so Mab couldn't have done it in SmF. If LC has been cloaked from his memory by the time of TC, then either Mab found a way to hide it which left no trace at all of her presence in Harry's memory, or someone who was already in his head did it. The second option seems simpler, and has the bonus of matching up better with Bonnie headache used to distract Harry from Mouse in the same timeframe.

The concept still holds up if you say Mab was directly responsible for hiding the blasting rod, and then Id Harry, copying her technique, is responsible for hiding LC. It just seems like added complication.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 06:54:23 PM
I agree with you that someone acting on Mab's behalf is the same as saying Mab did it. It's just how she did it.

The reason for suggesting that Id Harry was responsible for the memory manipulation is that it explains what was going on with Little Chicago and Mouse in TC without Mab having to meddle with Harry again directly. I find it compelling to match the blasting rod under a tarp in his mind in SmF with the tarp described as over the table with LC in TC. But he remembers LC in the Side Jobs stories between SmF and TC, so Mab couldn't have done it in SmF. If LC has been cloaked from his memory by the time of TC, then either Mab found a way to hide it which left no trace at all of her presence in Harry's memory, or someone who was already in his head did it. The second option seems simpler, and has the bonus of matching up better with Bonnie headache used to distract Harry from Mouse in the same timeframe.

The concept still holds up if you say Mab was directly responsible for hiding the blasting rod, and then Id Harry, copying her technique, is responsible for hiding LC. It just seems like added complication.
Except that if it were just Id blocking the memory of LC, there'd be no reason for Bob to not say, "Hey, boss, why are you doing those tracking spells on the floor?  Why not use Little Chicago?"  To which Harry would say, "Huh?"

Even if it was another case of the tarp-spell blotting out any reference to the subject (a la Harry hearing garbled noise at the phrase "blasting rod"), Bob will still notice that Harry wasn't replying to his questions.  And he would have brought it up.

So there has to be another reason for Bob to also not suggest using LC.  Either Mab did it, and intimidated Bob into silence, or LC was just broken at the time.  The latter seems unlikely, as you'd think there'd be some dialogue expressing his frustration that the one tool he needed right then wasn't working.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: raidem on October 05, 2017, 07:49:37 PM
There is a strong argument to be made that IdHarry results from TT Harry sticking his hand in things via Harry's mental/subconscious processes.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: jonas on October 05, 2017, 08:41:12 PM
The thing about ID doing it, Id is basically the same as MM Harry as far as looks, Givin the Mirroring of things and the nature of a 'collective unconsciousness' being it's own aspect of the mind, I find it probable ID's attempts at communication could also be colored by an alt Harry mucking about in the same grey space of below conscious suggestion to effect changes in the timeline/reality that are favorable.

If my theory on LC surviving and being used to access the point in time and space that it still matches up to are correct, it was hidden like the delorian was, under a big tarp lol. It, besides being an active thaumaturgy connection, could be used for it's connection to what was, the past.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 05, 2017, 09:18:48 PM
Except that if it were just Id blocking the memory of LC, there'd be no reason for Bob to not say, "Hey, boss, why are you doing those tracking spells on the floor?  Why not use Little Chicago?"  To which Harry would say, "Huh?"

Even if it was another case of the tarp-spell blotting out any reference to the subject (a la Harry hearing garbled noise at the phrase "blasting rod"), Bob will still notice that Harry wasn't replying to his questions.  And he would have brought it up.

So there has to be another reason for Bob to also not suggest using LC.  Either Mab did it, and intimidated Bob into silence, or LC was just broken at the time.  The latter seems unlikely, as you'd think there'd be some dialogue expressing his frustration that the one tool he needed right then wasn't working.

You're right, Bob is implicated. That was actually the discussion that brought this theory about. Bob missing LC is odd. The lack of any dialog about LC at all is odd. Mab had access to the lab at this time, (assuming she meant no harm) so it's possible she's involved. I'll admit it's more of a reach though. I also tried to tie Bob's request for an extra vessel into the OP, but that might be pushing it too.


I shouldn't be surprised that any post about LC and Id Harry eventually turns to time travel. There's nothing to rule it out, and it's hard to deny the ties and resemblance. However. It's really only TC where Little Chicago goes unused, unmentioned, unseen. It's used in SmF, mentioned in SJ, gone in TC, back in Changes. Is the implication that there's time travel in TC? If so, why the timing that blocks him from finding Shagnasty? Why does that sync up with the Bonnie headache that blocks the same thing with Mouse?
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2017, 11:10:00 PM
You're right, Bob is implicated. That was actually the discussion that brought this theory about. Bob missing LC is odd. The lack of any dialog about LC at all is odd. Mab had access to the lab at this time, (assuming she meant no harm) so it's possible she's involved. I'll admit it's more of a reach though. I also tried to tie Bob's request for an extra vessel into the OP, but that might be pushing it too.


I shouldn't be surprised that any post about LC and Id Harry eventually turns to time travel. There's nothing to rule it out, and it's hard to deny the ties and resemblance. However. It's really only TC where Little Chicago goes unused, unmentioned, unseen. It's used in SmF, mentioned in SJ, gone in TC, back in Changes. Is the implication that there's time travel in TC? If so, why the timing that blocks him from finding Shagnasty? Why does that sync up with the Bonnie headache that blocks the same thing with Mouse?
I'm not a big proponent of time travel in the series outside of a potential PG visit in a future book.  So I have nothing to help that particular avenue of discussion.

But as to Bob, it's not inconceivable that the backup skull was rooted in a desire for a bolt hole because Mab knew where he was.  If Mab was visiting on occasion, doing her duties for the imprisoned Lea at minimum, then she likely knew he was there.

Her strolling into the lab and circling the table, her eyes on his skull as she traces her fingers along the model's skyline, would be enough to have him moting in his occipital region, if you know what I mean.  Getting him to agree to not mention the model for Harry's safety would be child's play.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 06, 2017, 01:20:00 AM
Her strolling into the lab and circling the table, her eyes on his skull as she traces her fingers along the model's skyline, would be enough to have him moting in his occipital region, if you know what I mean.  Getting him to agree to not mention the model for Harry's safety would be child's play.

I like how you think  ;D

When you put it that way, the whole proposal makes more sense. Not to mention that it makes Mab's request to kill Maeve more reasonable, since she knew Harry had access to the knowledge about how to do it.

I'm not a huge time travel advocate either, but I'm up for the discussion.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: Froklsnt on October 06, 2017, 07:14:14 PM
Restating the proposed scenario, in light of the discussion we've had, integrating some of Griffyn's ideas:

Let's imagine a scene, at the beginning of Small Favor. Mab has entered Harry's mind, and is approached by Id Harry, who has the relatively recent task of watching over the newborn Bonnie. And Id Harry and Mab begin to deal. IH wants Harry's immediate survival, protection for Bonnie, and a chance to get laid. Mab wants Harry as Winter Knight, and also wants to earn Harry yet more power. Mab sees someone she can work with. So, the bargain is struck, and a relationship begun.

Id Harry will guide Harry ever closer to taking Mab up on her offer of Winter Knighthood. This will aid in Harry's survival and further amass power to help protect Bonnie. Plus, being WK definitely ups the chances that Harry will finally have some sex. More generally, the WK mantle will increase IH's power over what Harry does, as it encourages Harry to pursue his more animalistic, base tendencies. To enable IH to help further with these goals, Mab will give IH the ability to hide Harry's memories from himself.  IH is responsible for hiding Harry's fire magic for most of SmF, at Mab's behest as part of this deal.

On Demonreach, during the final battle of SmF, IH sees an opportunity to win further favor with Mab. Before Michael goes up into the helicopter, IH guides Harry's hand during a distracted moment, similar to when Harry picked up the denarius instead of Harry Carpenter (DM), or when Mab made Harry stab himself (SK). IH take's Thorned Namshiel's hand from Michael's pouch, and stows it away in one of Harry's pockets, unbeknownst to the conscious Harry.

At the conclusion of SmF, in the hospital chapel, Mab enters Harry's head again. IH presents his gift to Mab, the fallen who assaulted her castle. He is rewarded with a Winter boon, a fine-wrought silver snowflake pin, analogous to the leaf pin Harry received from Summer for his efforts in PG. IH is wearing this pin on his lapel next time we see him, in SG. With Demonreach in the discussion, IH mentions his sight visions to Mab. They further their bargain, adding the goal of guiding Harry becoming the Warden of Demonreach, newly within Harry's capability thanks to the gift of soulfire.

In TC, IH and Mab coordinate their efforts to assure that Harry moves towards the island. IH prevents Harry from confronting Shagnasty directly, by blocking out Little Chicago at a crucial moment and making sure Bonnie triggers a headache when Harry goes for Mouse. Instead he puts the idea in his head to take Morgan to Demonreach, and to perform a Sanctum Invocation. He is Harry's intuition, after all. Mab plays her part here as well, intimidating Bob into silence over why Harry isn't using LC. Since Lea was still a Sidhe-sicle, Mab could come and go as she pleased from the Harry's lab during TC, through Lea's garden, assuming she meant no harm. And Harry only goes into the lab the one time in that whole case. Plus, Mab foresees a side benefit of terrifying the little air spirit; he'll ask Harry to prepare a second vessel as a bolt hole, which will then be in place for when Bonnie is born. And since Mab knows Harry has access to Bob, she can be confident in CD that he has access to the info on how to kill Maeve.  Furthermore, Mab helps guide Molly towards the skill level and power she will need to perform the "delivery" of Bonnie.
Title: Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on October 06, 2017, 08:26:08 PM
Knowledge of winter lore is a kind of subconscious thing, so ID Harry might be more fully aware of such knowledge so better able to advise Harry.