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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: isoycrazy on September 20, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
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Question. Just how severe does a threshold and hospitality protect a person?
Say Murphy angered a summer fae. Without crossing the threshold, could this fae get vengeance by burning Murphy's home to the ground with her in it?
Or the same with Harry, and be like the Ebs and burn his place down? Or is it because the damage couldn't be garunteed to stop at just Harry's place, harm would befall innocent bystandards or their property, and that unjust harm would mean the fae is now in debt to these mortals for his stupid actions, the fae would just wait until Harry is more in the open to take vengeance?
That makes me wonder if Titania fitted the bill for the damage Tiny Gruff did to the train station?
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That's an interesting question. Reds can't cross a threshold, but as demonstrated, a well-tossed molotov cocktail does the job for them.
I think the answer has to do with how the fire is attempted, and the strength of the threshold. If a summer Fae tried sending fireballs against Murph's house, I'm sure that the magic would just splash harmlessly against her threshold. Lily's ball o' sunshine might get through in a very weakened state. Of course, a burning branch tossed against the house wouldn't be hindered.
But then, there's the question of what one can do and what one would do. There's a lot of rules and laws about faeries appearing behind ones threshold, and faeries are notorious lawyers about these sorts of things. Honestly, I do wonder if a Faerie would even try to be so gauche as to get behind a threshold or do something untoward to a person behind their threshold. Only the most powerful probably could attempt it (remember, Butters was safe in Murphy'so house) and it just seems like something that one does not do.
Last - Titania, cover the costs at the train station? Not likely. Though I think that Mac might have received some sort of compensation for his ceiling fans. Everyone in the Dresdenverse loves Mac.
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If you'll recall, the Cat Sith said about the laws of hospitality that if he were threatened, he'd leave and wait until they were no longer behind a threshold to take his vengeance.
Now that does not mean that they couldn't do like the Ebs and throw a something afire at the house. Actually I don't think the Eb's Molotov Cocktail even his Harry's door, didn't it hit his stairs and spread from there?
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That's an interesting question. Reds can't cross a threshold,
Do we know that for sure? Cause Archangel was actually lived at for instance. Might not have had a strong homely feel but multiple people stayed there too. An they stomped all over it... I'm just wondering if it's explicitly stated or just a generalized assumption.
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Almost 100% positive; Harry states it (I think) either in Storm Front or Grave Peril. I'll have to look tomorrow to get the exact statement. It might have been something like, "Reds can't cross without completely incapacitating themselves." Thoughave in my memory, he was comparing black, red, and white, so maybe it was later.
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Almost 100% positive; Harry states it (I think) either in Storm Front or Grave Peril. I'll have to look tomorrow to get the exact statement. It might have been something like, "Reds can't cross without completely incapacitating themselves." Thoughave in my memory, he was comparing black, red, and white, so maybe it was later.
I believe it was that White are barely hindered, Red lose a lot of their powers, and Black are essentially incapacitated.
Though the effectiveness of their attack on Archangel strongly suggests they were not largely crippled by the threshold. My guess is whichever traitor betrayed wards also invited them in. And I wouldn't be shocked if they brought an Ick or three to that particular party, either.
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I think for some, it depends on how strong the threshhold is.
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Yeah, if you consider a threshold as essentially a barrier with a variable strength (like how, say, Michael's threshold is stronger than Harry's), some creatures are probably less hindered than others.
If we (completely arbitrarily) rated a Red Court at 3 and Kalshazzak at 6, then Michael's 10-strength threshold would stop either of them cold, while Harry's piddly 2-strength threshold would seriously hamper a Red Court, but didn't slow down the toad demon very much.
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The Toad Demon got over Harry's threshold. Granted he doesn't have much of one, but it still got across.
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The Toad Demon got over Harry's threshold. Granted he doesn't have much of one, but it still got across.
Right; it still had to put some effort into it, though.
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And I think Bob mentioned that even once he was across the threshold, all the toad demon did was all physical attacks, his acid spit, and physically breaking things.
So, I'd bet the Ebs or other Reds could have done something similar.
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Question. Just how severe does a threshold and hospitality protect a person?
Say Murphy angered a summer fae. Without crossing the threshold, could this fae get vengeance by burning Murphy's home to the ground with her in it?
Or the same with Harry, and be like the Ebs and burn his place down? Or is it because the damage couldn't be garunteed to stop at just Harry's place, harm would befall innocent bystandards or their property, and that unjust harm would mean the fae is now in debt to these mortals for his stupid actions, the fae would just wait until Harry is more in the open to take vengeance?
That makes me wonder if Titania fitted the bill for the damage Tiny Gruff did to the train station?
Honestly, I don't see why they couldn't. They're rules lawyers. Harry points out that being unable to lie hasn't done anything to limit their ability to deceive.
I wouldn't put it past someone like the Red Cap, for instance, to rig a trap to a shotgun that kills Harry when he opens a window.
I think the distinction might be down the the nature of the Thing in question. It wouldn't really occur to someone like Cat Sith to burn Harry's apartment down because he's an ambush predator. Nor would the Erlking do something like that, because it's in his nature to hunt, not demolish. Does that make sense to anyone else, or is this just something I'm pulling out of my posterior?
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Another thing to consider about the Sidhe is the way they are hardwired. The way they hardwired for balance, and deals ect... Saying that someone might "anger" a Sidhe may not be enough for said Sidhe to just be able to target the person for murder. On the other hand something a mortal may consider innocent, and not a big deal can result in their death. Because of a Sidhe's nature I don't think it's easy to flesh out what they are capable of, and for what reason.
For example: Murphy killed Maeve. It had to be done. Mab caused Murphy to kill Maeve by removing the handcuffs. With all that being said I would not be at all surprised if Mab has a punishment planned for Murphy even if it doesn't make much sense since she had set things in motion for fulfilling that purpose.
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Another thing to consider about the Sidhe is the way they are hardwired. The way they hardwired for balance, and deals ect... Saying that someone might "anger" a Sidhe may not be enough for said Sidhe to just be able to target the person for murder. On the other hand something a mortal may consider innocent, and not a big deal can result in their death. Because of a Sidhe's nature I don't think it's easy to flesh out what they are capable of, and for what reason.
For example: Murphy killed Maeve. It had to be done. Mab caused Murphy to kill Maeve by removing the handcuffs. With all that being said I would not be at all surprised if Mab has a punishment planned for Murphy even if it doesn't make much sense since she had set things in motion for fulfilling that purpose.
Murphy was injured in service to Mab (by way of Harry) during Skin Game, so I think Harry would argue that their account is settled.
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Murphy was injured in service to Mab (by way of Harry) during Skin Game, so I think Harry would argue that their account is settled.
You think someone that brought the kind of pain, and suffering to Slate would consider the account settled for the death of her daughter? I don't believe so... I would not be remotely shocked if Mab's idea of settling the account would be to murder Murphy's future child... Or to enslave her child... Or maybe torturing Murphy until she's begging for death, only to punish her for years more to come.
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You think someone that brought the kind of pain, and suffering to Slate would consider the account settled for the death of her daughter? I don't believe so... I would not be remotely shocked if Mab's idea of settling the account would be to murder Murphy's future child... Or to enslave her child... Or maybe torturing Murphy until she's begging for death, only to punish her for years more to come.
Mab point blank ordered Harry to kill Maeve.
Murphy was effectively working for Harry there, to do something that Mab explicitly ordered her knight to have done.
It'd be daft if Mab went out of her way to gain retribution for an act that she not only personally and directly enabled but that she had ordered her Knight to do in the first place. Is she also getting retribution against Harry for doing the things she explicitly ordered him to do?
Slate betrayed Mab personally. Murphy did the exact thing Mab wanted done with Mab's direct assistance. The two situations are not at all comparable.
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Mab point blank ordered Harry to kill Maeve.
Murphy was effectively working for Harry there, to do something that Mab explicitly ordered her knight to have done.
It'd be daft if Mab went out of her way to gain retribution for an act that she not only personally and directly enabled but that she had ordered her Knight to do in the first place. Is she also getting retribution against Harry for doing the things she explicitly ordered him to do?
Slate betrayed Mab personally. Murphy did the exact thing Mab wanted done with Mab's direct assistance. The two situations are not at all comparable.
And Titania's response to Harry stopping Aurora from doing something that was of world ending proportions?
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And Titania's response to Harry stopping Aurora from doing something that was of world ending proportions?
... Was to yell at him and then say while she's mad, she's not going to harm him and in fact gives him helpful information.
And that's considering that Titania didn't order Harry to kill Aurora.
Look, point is, if you say, "I want this thing done," then you kinda forfeit any right to be mad about that thing being done. Especially if you directly help that thing be done.
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... Was to yell at him and then say while she's mad, she's not going to harm him and in fact gives him helpful information.
And that's considering that Titania didn't order Harry to kill Aurora.
Look, point is, if you say, "I want this thing done," then you kinda forfeit any right to be mad about that thing being done. Especially if you directly help that thing be done.
"I could feed you to my garden and make you scream the entire while. I could visit torments on you that would make Lloyd Slate's fate seem kind by comparison. I want to eat your heart"
"But she was mine. I cannot forget that you took her from me. I cannot forgive you that. Take your life and leave this place"..
Sidhe don't lie. She will not forget what he did, she will not forgive what he did, and she does want to eat his heart. If she has the opportunity, meaning if Harry crosses a line that allows her to act, she will follow through. I doubt Mab thinks any differently about Maeve's death. Sidhe are not human and human logic does not translate to Fae belief.
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Mab absolutely thinks differently about Maeve's death. For one, Mab is the cold and logical one in direct contrast to Titania's hot-blooded emotion. Of course she's going to think differently, and that's even before bringing in the fact that, again, Mab not only ordered it done but directly assisted in it.
You could argue that she's more directly responsible for the death than Murphy or Harry was.
Aurora's death to Titania and Maeve's death to Mab are two different circumstances, involving two different beings with diametrically opposed views and modes of operation, who take different roles in the deaths and are going to react differently.
So no, you can't say that because Hot Blooded Emotional Titania is angry at Harry (but ultimately doesn't actually harm him) for killing her daughter, Cold and Logical Mab who ordered Harry to kill Maeve and directly assisted Murphy in killing her is going to go to extreme length to punish someone for an act that she willfully and completely supported and assisted in.
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Last - Titania, cover the costs at the train station? Not likely. Though I think that Mac might have received some sort of compensation for his ceiling fans. Everyone in the Dresdenverse loves Mac.
I'd say respect more than love
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"I could feed you to my garden and make you scream the entire while. I could visit torments on you that would make Lloyd Slate's fate seem kind by comparison. I want to eat your heart"
"But she was mine. I cannot forget that you took her from me. I cannot forgive you that. Take your life and leave this place"..
Sidhe don't lie. She will not forget what he did, she will not forgive what he did, and she does want to eat his heart. If she has the opportunity, meaning if Harry crosses a line that allows her to act, she will follow through. I doubt Mab thinks any differently about Maeve's death. Sidhe are not human and human logic does not translate to Fae belief.
From Cold Days:
"The blame lies with me," Mab said quietly. "I cared too much."
I realized something then, in that moment when Mab spoke. She wasn't reacting as she should have been. Cold rage, seething anger, megalomaniac outrage- any of those would have been something I would have considered utterly within her character. But there was none of that in her face or voice.
Just . . . regret. And resolution.
Mab fully anticipated the idea Maeve wouldn't back down, that like a rabid dog she would have to be killed. But part of her, the part that remains at its core human, hoped in the insanity of desperation and a mother's love for her child, her child could turn back. Some parents send bad kids to reform schools. Mab had no other recourse when Maeve made her choice to kill Lily but let the die fall. Maeve threw it and never realized her own death was about to be set up and her gambit to throw the court into chaos would fail before the night was out as a new Lady of Winter would rise.
Mab is more like the hero of Old Yeller, young Travis who has to put down a beloved family member before more damage could be done. She took full responsibility for Murphy's actions. She even guarded Murphy from retribution from Maeve's fae allies who might seek vengeance.
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Mab is more like the hero of Old Yeller, young Travis who has to put down a beloved family member before more damage could be done. She took full responsibility for Murphy's actions. She even guarded Murphy from retribution from Maeve's fae allies who might seek vengeance.
I'm very much curious whether the Redcap is still kicking around with a grudge, or Mab promptly offed him for his role as an enabler / possible Nemesis vector himself.
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I'm very much curious whether the Redcap is still kicking around with a grudge, or Mab promptly offed him for his role as an enabler / possible Nemesis vector himself.
I'm wondering if Ace got his role by proxy/ascension? I'd like that, and it'd give Harry a bigger pain in the ass than Red himself.
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Except Harry pretty clearly killed Ace.
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Except Harry pretty clearly killed Ace.
Just as clearly as He himself was killed in Changes? The parallel is not coincidental. Considering he's savvy enough to have been a real threat to Harry, has an opposing army of little folk, ect I see him becoming a major balance to Harry in the courts and possibly beyond.
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Just as clearly as He himself was killed in Changes? The parallel is not coincidental. Considering he's savvy enough to have been a real threat to Harry, has an opposing army of little folk, ect I see him becoming a major balance to Harry in the courts and possibly beyond.
He was a flunky, nothing more. Harry was shooting and killing everyone who came onto that boat, and Ace's face is mentioned just so you know he's dead.
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He was a flunky, nothing more. Harry was shooting and killing everyone who came onto that boat, and Ace's face is mentioned just so you know he's dead.
So you know who was shot...
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So you know who was shot...
Right, because Mab is going to save him?
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Just as clearly as He himself was killed in Changes? The parallel is not coincidental. Considering he's savvy enough to have been a real threat to Harry, has an opposing army of little folk, ect I see him becoming a major balance to Harry in the courts and possibly beyond.
Harry had Mab (really stretching her limits) and Demonreach to help him - and they STILL had to bargain with Bonea for her help keeping him alive, and Uriel seems to have provided the path for his soul to reunite with his body.
Ace was canny enough to weaponize the little folk, but they're orders of magnitude too weak to give the kind of help he would have needed. Perhaps some of the Outsiders present or the Fomor in the lake have the juice, but anyone who falls into their hands isn't really going to be themself if they're seen again at all.
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Right, because Mab is going to save him?
Because Summer always acts in balance and what Winter did staying around to revive Harry cries of imbalance.
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Because Summer always acts in balance and what Winter did staying around to revive Harry cries of imbalance.
It doesn't do every single action. That's never been the case.
And why would Summer do that when it already has a balance to Harry -- the Summer Knight.
Why revive a flunky whose one trick (recruiting pixies) was A. stolen from Harry, B. less than ineffective (Harry recruited his biggest enforcer on the pixie squad) and C. was done in the service of folks trying to end reality?
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It doesn't do every single action. That's never been the case.
Empirically prove that? Cause acting in direct relation seems to be the queens thing. And that's not just some action, Winter during Summer.
And why would Summer do that when it already has a balance to Harry -- the Summer Knight.
Because the SK has proven to be weak and friendly with the WK? Because his job is to be a balance to the WK?
Why revive a flunky whose one trick (recruiting pixies) was A. stolen from Harry, B. less than ineffective (Harry recruited his biggest enforcer on the pixie squad) and C. was done in the service of folks trying to end reality?
Bomb's, current knowledge compared to old fae, knowing precisely where to ambush Harry with that bat, ect. Even Harry admits he gave him a run for his money.
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Empirically prove that? Cause acting in direct relation seems to be the queens thing. And that's not just some action, Winter during Summer.
I don't have to because it's obvious from the books that it doesn't happen that way.
What you're suggesting is that, for example, to mirror picking Harry as Winter Knight, Titania would go out and get a wizard for her Summer Knight, which she didn't do.
They act when the other acts. That has never meant they do the exact same things.
That's not even to mention that Lake Michigan freezing in the winter is not Summer's domain. It's Mab's, which is how she explains she grabs Harry.
Because the SK has proven to be weak and friendly with the WK? Because his job is to be a balance to the WK?
So you pick a weaker guy that has no incentive to work for you, was actively working with the people trying to end the world, and who's already gotten his ass kicked by the Winter Knight he's supposed to mirror?
Bomb's, current knowledge compared to old fae, knowing precisely where to ambush Harry with that bat, ect. Even Harry admits he gave him a run for his money.
And yet, Harry blows him away with a gun, and it's basically an afterthought at that point.
Look, he's just not some great adversary for Harry. He's a flunky of the real villain -- hell, a flunky of a flunky of the real villain -- whose demise is an afterthought at best.
He served his purpose (and failed at that), got shot, and fell into the waters of someplace that's explicitly not Summer's domain.
He's dead, Jim.
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I don't have to because it's obvious from the books that it doesn't happen that way.
What you're suggesting is that, for example, to mirror picking Harry as Winter Knight, Titania would go out and get a wizard for her Summer Knight, which she didn't do.
They act when the other acts. That has never meant they do the exact same things.
That's not even to mention that Lake Michigan freezing in the winter is not Summer's domain. It's Mab's, which is how she explains she grabs Harry.
So you pick a weaker guy that has no incentive to work for you, was actively working with the people trying to end the world, and who's already gotten his ass kicked by the Winter Knight he's supposed to mirror?
And yet, Harry blows him away with a gun, and it's basically an afterthought at that point.
Look, he's just not some great adversary for Harry. He's a flunky of the real villain -- hell, a flunky of a flunky of the real villain -- whose demise is an afterthought at best.
He served his purpose (and failed at that), got shot, and fell into the waters of someplace that's explicitly not Summer's domain.
He's dead, Jim.
I agree. Ace is a tragic guy, for sure, but the amount of energy Mab wasted on saving Harry doesn't mean Titania will play that same card. While she hates Harry, Mab using so much power to save him means that much less energy Mab has to use for a given time. If an enemy nations wants to devote that level of resources to saving a person and disruption isn't possible, then the wise answer would be to wait and see if things come out good for the person who nearly died.
If he survives and Mab used that much to save him, maiming Harry again could make her waste more energy. Or it could make Mab kill Harry. Or Harry dies from his injuries regardless of Mab's actions. That is a win-win-win for Titania.
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Because Summer always acts in balance and what Winter did staying around to revive Harry cries of imbalance.
I don't think that Summer, and Winter balancing is like how Angels balance things. Winter/Summer balance has more to do with their base of power, not their actions taken, I think. It's more likely balancing will be with Elaine becoming Summer Knight.
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I don't have to because it's obvious from the books that it doesn't happen that way.
Yea, that's wherecommunication breaks down ad I stop trying, yes. you do have to back up supposition. You can't even tell me where he got shot or if he chose his fae heritage if it coulda saved him.
What you're suggesting is that, for example, to mirror picking Harry as Winter Knight, Titania would go out and get a wizard for her Summer Knight, which she didn't do.
*cough*Elaine*cough*, fyi anything not balanced by the courts gets balanced elsewhere... Now why don't you explain how Winter in Summer isn't imbalanced, through the direct and Willfull actions of the queen no less.
They act when the other acts. That has never meant they do the exact same things.
In balance, In Balance. Mab has a powerful Weapon in Harry, Titania will require a balance, period.
That's not even to mention that Lake Michigan freezing in the winter is not Summer's domain. It's Mab's, which is how she explains she grabs Harry.
Also the Fomor's, whom are N's court manifesting.
So you pick a weaker guy that has no incentive to work for you, was actively working with the people trying to end the world, and who's already gotten his ass kicked by the Winter Knight he's supposed to mirror?
And yet, Harry blows him away with a gun, and it's basically an afterthought at that point.
He's not supposed to mirror him yet, he's a fricken Human still man....? ???
Look, he's just not some great adversary for Harry. He's a flunky of the real villain -- hell, a flunky of a flunky of the real villain -- whose demise is an afterthought at best.
opinion.
He served his purpose (and failed at that), got shot, and fell into the waters of someplace that's explicitly not Summer's domain.
He's dead, Jim.
YOUR not Jim, and that's not fricken WOJ. Don't try to write it up like it is, that's ridiculious. Have patience for the next book instead of insisting your right, cause when He pops up I WILL remind you ;;)
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I don't think that Summer, and Winter balancing is like how Angels balance things. Winter/Summer balance has more to do with their base of power, not their actions taken, I think. It's more likely balancing will be with Elaine becoming Summer Knight.
The queens actions are specifically taken in tandem though.. Harry discusses it all the time, especially after He's targeted in WK prematurely. Which imo points to Mab and Titania actually being aware of the actions taken that require a direct balance, she knew from looking at the game board they share(which might quite literally be the stone table) Like a cross between battleship and Chess.
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Yea, that's wherecommunication breaks down ad I stop trying, yes. you do have to back up supposition. You can't even tell me where he got shot or if he chose his fae heritage if it coulda saved him.
Yes, I can
On that scene on the boat, Harry is explicitly shooting everyone who tries to come aboard.
He mentions seeing Ace's face in the light of the muzzle flash.
Ergo, he got shot.
Could his fae heritage have saved him? Probably not. The Redcap isn't known for being able to survive gunshot wounds. The big Redcap seemed to think Harry could kill him bare-handed.
*cough*Elaine*cough*, fyi anything not balanced by the courts gets balanced elsewhere... Now why don't you explain how Winter in Summer isn't imbalanced, through the direct and Willfull actions of the queen no less.
You're not talking about Elaine. You're talking about Ace.
And Elaine isn't the Summer Knight.
You're putting way more literalism into "the faerie courts balance each other" than has ever been evidenced in the books. Them acting to counter one another does not mean they do the same things.
In balance, In Balance. Mab has a powerful Weapon in Harry, Titania will require a balance, period.
She has one. His name is Fix.
Also the Fomor's, whom are N's court manifesting.
So is it the Fomor, or Titania? Or is Titania working with the Fomor?
Why would the Fomor care so much? If they did grab him, they'd probably just make him into a rank and file servitor.
He's not supposed to mirror him yet, he's a fricken Human still man....? ???
That's the point.
If Titania wanted to get an equal and opposite mirror to Harry, she wouldn't pick some random human whose track record against Harry is already 0-2. She'd get someone with real power already.
YOUR not Jim, and that's not fricken WOJ. Don't try to write it up like it is, that's ridiculious.
So you've never heard of Star Trek?
(https://i.imgflip.com/i8eh1.jpg)
Have patience for the next book instead of insisting your right, cause when He pops up I WILL remind you ;;)
"Don't you dare insist you're right. Because I'm insisting I'm right!" Really?
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The queens actions are specifically taken in tandem though.. Harry discusses it all the time, especially after He's targeted in WK prematurely. Which imo points to Mab and Titania actually being aware of the actions taken that require a direct balance, she knew from looking at the game board they share(which might quite literally be the stone table) Like a cross between battleship and Chess.
Right, so when Mab named Harry emissary, what did Titania do again?
Did she find a wizard of Harry's power and make them emissary?
No, she just sent her already-Summer hit squad.
Ergo, no, the queens do not balance each other by taking the same actions.
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Yes, I can
On that scene on the boat, Harry is explicitly shooting everyone who tries to come aboard.
He mentions seeing Ace's face in the light of the muzzle flash.
Ergo, he got shot.
Where, doesn't tell me where. Where matters, even an especially to a central mass shot with an older rifle.
Could his fae heritage have saved him? Probably not. The Redcap isn't known for being able to survive gunshot wounds. The big Redcap seemed to think Harry could kill him bare-handed.
Yea... as the WK, sure... so? has nothing to do with what he's actually capable of surviving? not talking about Elaine. You're talking about Ace.
I'm talking about who can balance where, and if Ace is SK balance or N, balance to Harry's power, or if it all goes into the new mythos come the New Spiritus Animus....
And Elaine isn't the Summer Knight.
Yet...
You're putting way more literalism into "the faerie courts balance each other" than has ever been evidenced in the books. Them acting to counter one another does not mean they do the same things.
Never said 'same thing' precisely but to act in balance to each others actions... however we Have empirical evidence they do just that. Mab choose Harry to kill Maeve despite years in between PG and CD and waited for the balance of him having killed Aurora too. So she acted directly in mirror to that, just like i'm pointing out the possibility of here in Titania saving ace, from a gunshot wound, on a boat. Also, since more than just Mab had a han8d in Harry, more than Titania can have a hand in Ace, so...
She has one. His name is Fix.So is it the Fomor, or Titania? Or is Titania working with the Fomor?
with that attitude I have no chance of hammering home some understanding...
Why would the Fomor care so much? If they did grab him, they'd probably just make him into a rank and file servitor.That's the point.
If Titania wanted to get an equal and opposite mirror to Harry, she wouldn't pick some random human whose track record against Harry is already 0-2. She'd get someone with real power already.
So you've never heard of Star Trek?
(https://i.imgflip.com/i8eh1.jpg)
"Don't you dare insist you're right. Because I'm insisting I'm right!" Really?
No I've never heard of anyone signing off as Jim, but Jim sorry. And considering you were arguing someone in his book was dead it's not the first thing that came to mind. An I'm not insisting I'm right, I'm insisting you can't prove I'm wrong and that I have a valid preponderance of the evidence. Subtle difference.. also, that you may be wrong.
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Right, so when Mab named Harry emissary, what did Titania do again?
Did she find a wizard of Harry's power and make them emissary?
No, she just sent her already-Summer hit squad.
Ergo, no, the queens do not balance each other by taking the same actions.
Actually, the hit squad was in balance to the Fetches sent out by Mab last year, she just waited to act til it helped her more. The moves are not tit for tat, neither is a physical confrontation, but the moves of each have a semblance, a balanced action toward the other, a defense for an offense a reaction for an action.
Where in those actions are toward the unseelie accords I don't see Summer acting I balance at all actually, possibly because that's Winters legit business. They have no Seelie accords for instance, Summer must be a signatory in the accords, have to abide by the words of the law. No reason for a Summer emissary, wasn't vs Summer interests, so she took what action she could with her held back squad to send after a mortal dice roll from before.
Harry set to kill Maeve years later proves my point absolutely. So if your gonna refute anything focus on what matters.
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Where, doesn't tell me where. Where matters, even an especially to a central mass shot with an older rifle.
So what are you proposing here, that Harry shot Ace, and they just ... sat there till Harry got picked up? And that it's an "older rifle" doesn't matter. A gun doesn't become less lethal because it's an older model.
You're really reaching here.
Yea... as the WK, sure... so? has nothing to do with what he's actually capable of surviving?
Sure. You're saying that getting blasted with a rifle wouldn't kill Ace, who hadn't Chosen and wouldn't have had the full power of the Redcap, while the Redcap himself felt he had to cheat in a hand-to-hand fight to beat Harry.
I'm talking about who can balance where, and if Ace is SK balance or N, balance to Harry's power, or if it all goes into the new mythos come the New Spiritus Animus....
What on Earth are you talking about?
Look, Ace just isn't a "balance" to Harry's power. He's not. He doesn't have anywhere near the power or ability that Harry showed even before he was the Winter Knight. Ace is a goon, a flunky.
Never said 'same thing' precisely but to act in balance to each others actions... however we Have empirical evidence they do just that. Mab choose Harry to kill Maeve despite years in between PG and CD and waited for the balance of him having killed Aurora too. So she acted directly in mirror to that, just like i'm pointing out the possibility of here in Titania saving ace, from a gunshot wound, on a boat. Also, since more than just Mab had a han8d in Harry, more than Titania can have a hand in Ace, so...
You did. You kept saying that because Harry was shot and killed on Lake Michigan, the same thing would happen to Ace.
And that's not at all why Mab had Harry kill Maeve. She had Harry kill Maeve because she was a nemesis agent, not because she felt her daughter had to die by Harry's hand because Aurora did.
Also, I'd like to point out that Titania doesn't care. About anything. Killing Aurora broke her, remember? She says as much. Just as she says she was talked out of punishing Harry over it. She just plain is not going to go to the effort to revive someone like Ace, if she's going to go to the effort of reviving anybody.
with that attitude I have no chance of hammering home some understanding...
You're the one doing all the stretching to justify bringing back a character that nobody in the books has any incentive or reason to revive. Don't talk to me about "attitude."
No I've never heard of anyone signing off as Jim, but Jim sorry. And considering you were arguing someone in his book was dead it's not the first thing that came to mind. An I'm not insisting I'm right, I'm insisting you can't prove I'm wrong and that I have a valid preponderance of the evidence. Subtle difference.. also, that you may be wrong.
Not "signing off as Jim." Quoting a line that's ubiquitous in pop culture in general and SF/Fantasy fandom in particular.
As for "not insisting I'm right," what do you call this: cause when He pops up I WILL remind you
That sounds like you're pretty darn insistent.
Actually, the hit squad was in balance to the Fetches sent out by Mab last year, she just waited to act til it helped her more.
There's nothing in the books that suggests this; the conclusion everyone comes to is that the move is directly because Harry is Winter's Emissary in that book. Hell, the word "fetch" is used once in the whole book, in reference to someone fetching a bag.
I mean, look at the Gruffs and the terms they're under. They're hunting Harry explicitly in relation to Marcone's capture. Eldest Gruff calls it off once Marcone and Harry are safely off the island. Everything about them is explicitly and directly about the Small Favor case, and nobody once suggests it's "balance" about the Fetches.
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to
seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will
you preserve your own.” She paused. “Unless…”
“Unless?”
“Unless you should agree to take up the mantle of the Winter
Knight,” Mab said, smiling. “I should be forced to choose another
Emissary if you did, and your involvement in this matter could end.”
Her eyelids lowered, sleepily sensual, and her surrogate voice
turned liquid, heady, an audible caress. “As my Knight you would
know power and pleasure that few mortals have tasted.”
And there's Mab explicitly stating that Summer's emissary -- the Gruffs -- are after Harry because he's Mab's Emissary, explicitly in relation to the case of Marcone.
Again, nothing to do with the Fetches.
Where in those actions are toward the unseelie accords I don't see Summer acting I balance at all actually, possibly because that's Winters legit business. They have no Seelie accords for instance, Summer must be a signatory in the accords, have to abide by the words of the law. No reason for a Summer emissary, wasn't vs Summer interests, so she took what action she could with her held back squad to send after a mortal dice roll from before.
Except Summer was involved. It's explicitly involved. That's why the Gruffs are hunting Harry, explicitly to do with the case that he's an emissary for. You're just straight up ignoring half the books.
Harry set to kill Maeve years later proves my point absolutely. So if your gonna refute anything focus on what matters.
Nope, doesn't come anywhere near to proving your point. At this point, you're making things up and drawing connections the book never does.
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So what are you proposing here, that Harry shot Ace, and they just ... sat there till Harry got picked up? And that it's an "older rifle" doesn't matter. A gun doesn't become less lethal because it's an older model.
Your really reaching here.
It actually effects both accuracy, penetration and power based upon the gun type. Your reaching all day to stop me, practically goal tending here lol.
Sure. You're saying that getting blasted with a rifle wouldn't kill Ace, who hadn't Chosen and wouldn't have had the full power of the Redcap, while the Redcap himself felt he had to cheat in a hand-to-hand fight to beat Harry.
the red cap cheats it's his nature... pouncing on unsuspecting vics an all.
What on Earth are you talking about?
*sing song* I'll never tell...
Look, Ace just isn't a "balance" to Harry's power. He's not. He doesn't have anywhere near the power or ability that Harry showed even before he was the Winter Knight. Ace is a goon, a flunky.
Winter makes weapons, Summer arms them fyi, different standard.
You did. You kept saying that because Harry was shot and killed on Lake Michigan, the same thing would happen to Ace.
Don't play the I don't understand nuances card, I've seen that before.
And that's not at all why Mab had Harry kill Maeve. She had Harry kill Maeve because she was a nemesis agent, not because she felt her daughter had to die by Harry's hand because Aurora did.
Aurora was acting with N as well fyi, and that second point is my point, thanks for finally seeing it. She 'felt' that because harry did it, it should be done by him in balance
Also, I'd like to point out that Titania doesn't care. About anything. Killing Aurora broke her, remember? She says as much. Just as she says she was talked out of punishing Harry over it. She just plain is not going to go to the effort to revive someone like Ace, if she's going to go to the effort of reviving anybody.
If Harry admits he cant possibly predict a fae woman, how shall we? If she didn't care she wouldn't have Told him about N.
You're the one doing all the stretching to justify bringing back a character that nobody in the books has any incentive or reason to revive. Don't talk to me about "attitude."
No, i'm pointing out the actual justifications in the thematic storyline, and your trying to disprove a point not disprovable. It stand alone as an idea with it's own reasoning opinionating it to death won't work. and you outright refused to give empirical evidence(which is your own perspective proof btw)
Not "signing off as Jim." Quoting a line that's ubiquitous in pop culture in general and SF/Fantasy fandom in particular.
As for "not insisting I'm right," what do you call this:
That sounds like you're pretty darn insistent.
I'm pretty darn certain, i'm not trying to insist you have the same view or break yours. You choose to respon8de to me that it wasn't possible after all.
There's nothing in the books that suggests this; the conclusion everyone comes to is that the move is directly because Harry is Winter's Emissary in that book.
You don't know me at all do ye? The suggestion is that since it happen8ed hours before something was afoot with it, I supplied my own reasoned deduction. Which has valid points in it as well...
I mean, look at the Gruffs and the terms they're under. They're hunting Harry explicitly in relation to Marcone's capture. Eldest Gruff calls it off once Marcone and Harry are safely off the island. Everything about them is explicitly and directly about the Small Favor case, and nobody once suggests it's "balance" about the Fetches.
Why would they need to? Fae offer up free info when it's meant to be a mystery anyway?
Except Summer was involved. It's explicitly involved. That's why the Gruffs are hunting Harry, explicitly to do with the case that he's an emissary for. You're just straight up ignoring half the books.
Must be mutual? fyi Gruff says once the field of battle has been concluded, he never directly states we're here as Summers version of an emissary. your missing the point of my response there. instead of sending an emissary to the matter, which was directly in reply to the queens action fyi, they sent a hit squad...
Nope, doesn't come anywhere near to proving your point. At this point, you're making things up and drawing connections the book never does.
Yea, drawing conclusions the books don't that's why some of us are here you know?
figured you'd ignore the only thing that matters by dismissing it. i'm done with arguing and receiving disbelief to try an refute valid points. Mab sending harry in direct semblance to him killing Aurora proves m9y point entirely fyi.
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It actually effects both accuracy, penetration and power based upon the gun type. Your reaching all day to stop me, practically goal tending here lol.
Nope. I'm stating what's stated in the books. No reaching at all.
the red cap cheats it's his nature... pouncing on unsuspecting vics an all.
Right, does "ambush unsuspecting victims" sound like something that's going to be strong and resilient?
Look at nature. Ambush predators avoid stand-up fights because they can't do stand-up fights.
*sing song* I'll never tell...
Right, so we're going into pure childishness here?
Winter makes weapons, Summer arms them fyi, different standard.
Irrelevant. Ace is still nothing special. You're moving the goalposts with every answer.
Don't play the I don't understand nuances card, I've seen that before.
Not playing that card at all. There's no nuance to what you're saying. You're making things up and ignoring the text of the books in some weird attempt to make Ace out to be more important than he is.
Aurora was acting with N as well fyi, and that second point is my point, thanks for finally seeing it. She 'felt' that because harry did it, it should be done by him in balance
That's still not Mab's motivation. Her motivation has nothing to do with Harry or balance, any more than it did when she cured Lea.
If Harry admits he cant possibly predict a fae woman, how shall we? If she didn't care she wouldn't have Told him about N.
She says as much, and she can't lie.
No, i'm pointing out the actual justifications in the thematic storyline, and your trying to disprove a point not disprovable. It stand alone as an idea with it's own reasoning opinionating it to death won't work. and you outright refused to give empirical evidence(which is your own perspective proof btw)
I've pointed to the text of the books. Repeatedly. You've ignored the text of the books. Repeatedly. There isn't a "thematic" reason to bring Ace back. He's a low-level flunky who wasn't even good at the meager jobs he tried to do. His story is that of the tragic coward. You know how Harry's a medium fish in a large pond? Ace is a minnow.
I'm pretty darn certain, i'm not trying to insist you have the same view or break yours. You choose to respon8de to me that it wasn't possible after all.
I think if you look through my posts, I never said it wasn't possible. I said it's not going to happen because Ace doesn't matter, he's not a "balance" to Harry, he was shot dead by Harry in territory where Summer had no influence, and Titania isn't going to bother because she can barely be arsed to do anything at all these days.
The idea that anyone is going to revive Ace involves ignoring all of that and appending importance and ability to him that he just plain does not have.
You don't know me at all do ye? The suggestion is that since it happen8ed hours before something was afoot with it, I supplied my own reasoned deduction. Which has valid points in it as well...
Except, as I just quoted (empirical evidence, remember?) Mab outright and explicitly says they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The Gruffs themselves say they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The idea that it's balance for the Fetches is never once suggested by anyone in the course of the whole book. That's not "reasoned deduction," that's jumping to a totally unsupported conclusion.
Why would they need to? Fae offer up free info when it's meant to be a mystery anyway?
It's not meant to be a mystery. They are explicitly clear why they're acting. You're looking for a "mystery" to justify the idea that Ace could come back, when there is in reality nothing there.
Must be mutual? fyi Gruff says once the field of battle has been concluded, he never directly states we're here as Summers version of an emissary. your missing the point of my response there. instead of sending an emissary to the matter, which was directly in reply to the queens action fyi, they sent a hit squad...
Mab says they're Summer's Emissary. She can't lie.
And that Summer sent a hit squad was my point. That Summer does not mirror Winter's action with the same action, and I was saying so to refute the point that Ace must have been revived from being shot on Lake Michigan because of your assertion that he would have because that's what Winter did for Harry.
You are, again, moving the goalposts.
Yea, drawing conclusions the books don't that's why some of us are here you know?
figured you'd ignore the only thing that matters by dismissing it. i'm done with arguing and receiving disbelief to try an refute valid points. Mab sending harry in direct semblance to him killing Aurora proves m9y point entirely fyi.
You're jumping to conclusions on things the books never say, and in fact indicate the opposite. You're stuck on this idea that Ace is some kind of nemesis of Harry, when that's simply not the case.
Just saying "it proves my point" doesn't make it true. I've already addressed that point.
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Nope. I'm stating what's stated in the books. No reaching at all.
Which was n8ot linearly germaine to my actual question there. Right, does "ambush unsuspecting victims" sound like something that's going to be strong and resilient?
Look at nature. Ambush predators avoid stand-up fights because they can't do stand-up fights.
Which is again towards my point, not away from it.
Right, so we're going into pure childishness here?
Considering Jim wrote those same words you might wanna bite your tongue, because that's two forum members you just directly insulted there.Irrelevant. Ace is still nothing special. You're moving the goalposts with every answer.
You keep moving them in every reply, so I match.. like summer to winter lol . My points still stand in the same spots, you've outright refused to acknowledge or refute them.
Not playing that card at all. There's no nuance to what you're saying. You're making things up and ignoring the text of the books in some weird attempt to make Ace out to be more important than he is.
I'm pointing out relevant things mentioned directly in the books and expounded upon in monologue actually. Harry comments on how wiley Ace is very directly. That's still not Mab's motivation. Her motivation has nothing to do with Harry or balance, any more than it did when she cured Lea.
MW directly comments on her motivation actually and it shows in and of itself the thematic romantizing in their balance.
She says as much, and she can't lie.
She can be mistaken.
I've pointed to the text of the books. Repeatedly. You've ignored the text of the books. Repeatedly. There isn't a "thematic" reason to bring Ace back. He's a low-level flunky who wasn't even good at the meager jobs he tried to do. His story is that of the tragic coward. You know how Harry's a medium fish in a large pond? Ace is a minnow.
to coin a phrase, illrelavent.
I think if you look through my posts, I never said it wasn't possible. I said it's not going to happen because Ace doesn't matter, he's not a "balance" to Harry, he was shot dead by Harry in territory where Summer had no influence, and Titania isn't going to bother because she can barely be arsed to do anything at all these days.
The idea that anyone is going to revive Ace involves ignoring all of that and appending importance and ability to him that he just plain does not have.
Except, as I just quoted (empirical evidence, remember?) Mab outright and explicitly says they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The Gruffs themselves say they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The idea that it's balance for the Fetches is never once suggested by anyone in the course of the whole book. That's not "reasoned deduction," that's jumping to a totally unsupported conclusion.
It's not meant to be a mystery. They are explicitly clear why they're acting. You're looking for a "mystery" to justify the idea that Ace could come back, when there is in reality nothing there.
Mab says they're Summer's Emissary. She can't lie.
And that Summer sent a hit squad was my point. That Summer does not mirror Winter's action with the same action, and I was saying so to refute the point that Ace must have been revived from being shot on Lake Michigan because of your assertion that he would have because that's what Winter did for Harry.
You are, again, moving the goalposts.
You're jumping to conclusions on things the books never say, and in fact indicate the opposite. You're stuck on this idea that Ace is some kind of nemesis of Harry, when that's simply not the case.
Just saying "it proves my point" doesn't make it true. I've already addressed that point.
the rest seems to be you spinning the circle so i'll go back to my original elements, Ace thematically challenges harry in his wiley status and mirrors him in reality, a common and important trope that doesn't match up directly as a mirror, but crosses characters.
And His 'death' being a precise parallel was neither doyalist or watsonianly a coincidence. period. As far as i'm concerned this convo is over, drop it or risk actually acting childish..
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I directly and clearly answered your posts with direct citations from the text of the books to support my point. There isn't any "precise parallel" between Ace and Harry's deaths, and even if there was, that would not be nearly enough reason for Titania to bother.
The point is that Ace is not nearly important enough to Winter, Summer, Fomor, or even his own dad to go to the trouble of saving him to use him against a guy who he's already failed to do substantial harm to several times.
He's a goon, a flunky, he's irrelevant to the greater scheme of things, and he's dead. It makes no sense to say Titania's going to go to all this effort to save someone who she doesn't even apparently know about, to pursue a purpose she self-admits she doesn't care about and was talked out of.