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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 30, 2017, 12:37:46 AM
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OK, so a number of people think Cowl might be Simon Pietrovich, the Senior Council member who was supposedly killed when the Red Court stormed; or where let into, Simon's personal fortress at Archangel. Nothing new about that.
Here's the new WAG. Simon/Cowl was turned. The Red Court survived but not because the Eebs are still alive; it survived because Cowl was in the Nevernever when the Bloodline curse went off. I can go further and guess that Cowl was like Susan at the time of Deadbeat, in that he may have only been half-turned, but after Harry almost blew him up by messing up the darkhallow, Cowl had to feed in order to stay alive. Let's see how long it takes to disprove this one.
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It's possible he was half-turned in DB, though I don't think it's necessarily the case.
I would note though, Harry described his magic as dark but definitely human as of DB (unlike Grevane / Corpsetaker / vampire sorcerers who used the 'cold and greasy' power source), so he can't have been any more than half-turned. And as far as I recall the battle scene in the Deeps in WN, Harry got enough of a sense of the opponent's work there to be sure it was Cowl again - were he a full vampire at that point, I don't think his 'signature' would have been still so identifiable. I think the Darkhallow backlash wounded him, but not severely enough that he'd need to embrace vampirism to recover. Indeed, the fact that he was still moving as though pained in WN speaks against a full transformation to the Red Court, since their much greater healing abilities would have had him fully recovered in a matter of days. It probably even weighs against him being half-turned, since he had plenty of time to get his hands on a non-fatal increment of blood to restore even a major injury without turning (as Harry donated to Susan to fix her broken spine after going up against the Ick).
More likely, I think Simon would just be at or above Ebenezar's level of proficiency at enchanting passive defenses onto his clothing. I think he just tanked through the backlash with advanced armour enchantments Harry had no idea were possible at the time (it would also explain the car flip catching him by surprise and still not hurting him).
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I was going to make a snide comment that we see Cowl in daylight, but it's possible we don't we first meet him outside of Bock's Ordered Books after dark.
I think the next time we see him is when he steals Bob, and then of course the Dark Hallow happens at night.
Still don't think he's Red Court. Cowl seems to independent and powerful an entity in his own right. He wants to make himself a junior league god, seems like thats something the Red King wouldn't want his underling to become a god.
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OK, so a number of people think Cowl might be Simon Pietrovich, the Senior Council member who was supposedly killed when the Red Court stormed; or where let into, Simon's personal fortress at Archangel. Nothing new about that.
Here's the new WAG. Simon/Cowl was turned. The Red Court survived but not because the Eebs are still alive; it survived because Cowl was in the Nevernever when the Bloodline curse went off. I can go further and guess that Cowl was like Susan at the time of Deadbeat, in that he may have only been half-turned, but after Harry almost blew him up by messing up the darkhallow, Cowl had to feed in order to stay alive. Let's see how long it takes to disprove this one.
Not entirely new all things considered(including me saying basically the same of cowl being turned within the last month or so lol)
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I don't know. This theory seems to fail the Chekhov Test. Try as I might, I just can't think of any pieces of evidence in past books that would suggest that Cowl is a Red Court vampire. No conspicuous smoking guns that would signify that this is a possibility.
Sure, I bet that it would pretty much be impossible to prove that he wasn't a vampire. But, that means about as much as me saying that it's impossible to prove that he wasn't a Scion of Thor, or a White Court vampire, or a really, really, really overgrown dew drop fairy. What evidence is there that makes this even something to consider?
The Simon theory is basically the Occam's Razor Theory - it's the simplest explanation and in a rational world is most likely. The Future Harry Dresden theory is the Crazy String Theory Theory, and the DuMorne/Elaine is the Crazy Conspiracy Theory Theory. I'm a believer in the Future/Alternate Universe Dresden theory myself.
This theory just doesn't seem so likely.
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Cowl being able to defend against a death curse could mean he would know how to defend against something like blood line curse as well.
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I don't know. This theory seems to fail the Chekhov Test. Try as I might, I just can't think of any pieces of evidence in past books that would suggest that Cowl is a Red Court vampire. No conspicuous smoking guns that would signify that this is a possibility
He speaks with a long slithery way of talking. RCV have long thin tongues just like a snake in their true form. The inability to create a flesh mask after the event's at Archangel(as we didn't actually hear him speak in GP) would line up rather well with the idea.
The Simon theory is basically the Occam's Razor Theory - it's the simplest explanation and in a rational world is most likely.
No, no it's not, it's born of Occam's Opinion, which states that the idea that is liked best will hold sway so long as greater substantive evidence is not presented. An sometimes even in the face of actual evidence that makes it less likely if not down right unlikely. Like the idea of someone reverse engineering his wards being presented the very chapter before this is actually done to Harry by someone else of the same magical heritage. Since this evidence against a purely 'Simon' Cowl exists and has existed from the very inception of the idea of Simon in the books(and therefor pre-simon=cowl theory) I now present this fact as evidence the greater liked theory shall hold sway(alas, if only I could pin down the originator of this theory I could attempt to go back and stop them and the other 11 monkeys ;) ) above and beyond the actuality of the proposed evidence(which honestly, what's the evidence for Simon is Cowl anyway? ??? ) people believe what they want to believe, and see what they wanna see. The key to cutting through with Occam's razor is wanting only to see what is already before you but hidden from you :)
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I am, also, in the Simon=Cowl camp. So, if Simon was not killed but only half-turned in SK would the destruction of RCV bloodline return Simon back to a human wizard. Say Simon was working with the RCV and not against them in GP. Then in the next book, he allows his "brute squad" to be killed and himself half-turned as a show of commitment. A long con follows, similar to what Martin did, where Simon aids the RCV. After the bloodline curse nearly but not entirely eliminates the RCV, Simon reverts back to human form since he is long-lived and has only been half-turned for a decade or so. Why would he go lone wolf? Unknown. But, it is an entirely possible story arc.
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(which honestly, what's the evidence for Simon is Cowl anyway? ??? )
- Beastly strong human practitioner
- Had access to high-level internal White Council reports (just before fighting Harry outside Bock's he said he was "curious what had the Wardens so nervous about him") - this rules out future Harry time travel theories because he would have known exactly how strong his younger self was
- Connections with the Reds to synchronize their assault with his Darkhallow plans
- Has a female apprentice
That circumstantial evidence defines one hell of a narrow candidate pool.
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- Beastly strong human practitioner
- Had access to high-level internal White Council reports (just before fighting Harry outside Bock's he said he was "curious what had the Wardens so nervous about him") - this rules out future Harry time travel theories because he would have known exactly how strong his younger self was
- Connections with the Reds to synchronize their assault with his Darkhallow plans
- Has a female apprentice
That circumstantial evidence defines one hell of a narrow candidate pool.
"Knew" Kemmler
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Never met Harry before DB seems like a possible clue.
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- Beastly strong human practitioner
- Had access to high-level internal White Council reports (just before fighting Harry outside Bock's he said he was "curious what had the Wardens so nervous about him") - this rules out future Harry time travel theories because he would have known exactly how strong his younger self was
- Connections with the Reds to synchronize their assault with his Darkhallow plans
- Has a female apprentice
That circumstantial evidence defines one hell of a narrow candidate pool.
But none of it points at Simon except the perception. In fact he only substantive thing you just said is it's because had studied the reds heavily himself. Which doesn't actually point the finger at him. But if it did would actually make it more likely he was turned by the reds with such a hefty connection and all...
also, alternative future Harry doesn't know about other past versions of himself...(gotta know TT mechanisms in stories and science fiction) I'll give you one for TT Harry based on the thematics of Nic and Harrys coinciding but opposite natures(which if you look at Nico's original description and CAN'T see the parody of Harry's choice of garment, I can't help you see it) along with the one signifigent factor from Lasciel, which is so far we've seen her manifest in conjunction with fire and she generally keeps the whole fire motif/angle. So... In the Raith deeps alt future Harry got pissed and manifested Lasciel as a giant flaming bird in a thematic duplicate of Nico summoning Andurial as a giant shadow/bat. It's connected to the idea of Nic and Harry sharing elements(which i'll be happy to go back to) and how it effects the manifestation of the fallen, Andurial and Lasciel.
*btw when Luccio has been compromised as well as Peabody being a TC, them having high level WC reports isn't really a big mystery. why connect it to another mysterious figure instead of the moles we already know exist. Like how do you really think they found Luccio's bootcamp when Luccio herself was there and compromised anyway? No need to bring in alternative culprits within the Council(which after he's 'dead', how's his connections for reports gonna help him ??? )even if Cowl and his dark, lightless way's are the most likely candidate for actually getting them there.
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Simon was said to be the vampire court expert of the council, so he might know ways to prevent turning or the transformation at bay. The vampire lore would be invaluable. I can't believe it was simply destroyed, I am betting it was either hidden or stolen, even both. Harry could use this lore to keep Lara in check, and shatter the remains of the BCV. I could see a copy of the lore being used as insurance, if slain, it is passed onto those that would use it on the vampire courts.
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*btw when Luccio has been compromised as well as Peabody being a TC, them having high level WC reports isn't really a big mystery.
Luccio wasn't compromised until after that conversation. And while Peabody was a Circle traitor, I think he must have been operating in a different cell of the organization than Cowl. It simply doesn't make sense that finding Die Lied Der Erlking was important to Cowl if he was already getting regular document dumps from the guy who wrote it.
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We don't know exactly when Lucio had been compromised. Like Jonas, I have pointed out the possibility that Lucio could have been compromised and location of camp leaked. Of course, this doesn't even mention Peabody like Jonas just referred to.
Jim makes possible suspects but in hindsight there are a few that weren't on the list that should have been.
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Like Jonas, I have pointed out the possibility that Lucio could have been compromised and location of camp leaked.
Still after Cowl's first appearance in DB and the allusion to having read Warden threat assessments on Harry.
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Luccio wasn't compromised until after that conversation. And while Peabody was a Circle traitor, I think he must have been operating in a different cell of the organization than Cowl.
Oh? an now we have proof when Luccio was compromised do we? So Peabody playing the long game getting everyone who signed papers under his ink including ever single warden who checked in at headquarters would just not include Luccio at any point in time prior? Except Cowl is the one who took the ghouls to camp Kaboom, showing a definite connection between cowl and the WC traitors. It simply doesn't make sense that finding Die Lied Der Erlking was important to Cowl if he was already getting regular document dumps from the guy who wrote it.
The guy who miswrote the title lol? How about the fact they were both tracking down and taking care of all the other copies in existence? Lacking in photographic memory whom would attempt to summon a being of EK's strength whom you've never called upon before? Or the fact Cowl was surmised by Harry to understand things about he dark hallow that wasn't even wrote down In the word by either Laciel's translation or Grevene's lack of outward comment?(which was planned long before he actually got ahold of E-Bob btw)
So.. what do we have again? The idea Peabody and Cowl were in separate splinter cells and information was NOT passed between them by a mutual handler?
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Luccio wasn't compromised until after that conversation. And while Peabody was a Circle traitor, I think he must have been operating in a different cell of the organization than Cowl. It simply doesn't make sense that finding Die Lied Der Erlking was important to Cowl if he was already getting regular document dumps from the guy who wrote it.
Cowl didn't need a copy for himself. He was trying to remove copies that the others could use. They'd been gathering the copies for weeks, if I recall.
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Oh? an now we have proof when Luccio was compromised do we?
At some point after getting bodyswapped. The part that proves it is where the text of TC outright says it was the bodyswap that made her vulnerable to influence, where an older wizard's mind would normally have been too set in its ways to be forcibly altered like that. Morgan is full of self-recrimination over not predicting that could be an issue.
Cowl didn't need a copy for himself. He was trying to remove copies that the others could use. They'd been gathering the copies for weeks, if I recall.
There's a considerable distance between what he says about his motivations in front of Kumori in that scene, and what he actually does later. Early on he claims to be trying to foil the others by removing the books, but in the end he actually preferred to see someone else risk the Erlking's wrath by doing the actual summoning, and swoop in himself at the last moment of the Darkhallow. If you reread him talking to Harry after knocking him on the head in Murphy's back yard - when Kumori wasn't around to have her impression that he's trying to use dark power to do good ruined by him talking honestly - he's quite open that he can work with one of the other two doing the summoning step, but he had to stop Harry foiling that.
Now, maybe he's just insane due to nemfection, and his actions are all over the map. But personally, I think his efforts to get other copies out of circulation were primarily for the sake of maintaining Kumori's illusions about his real motives so she would stay obedient, rather than a significant interest in denying the summoning incantation to other players.
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At some point after getting bodyswapped. The part that proves it is where the text of TC outright says it was the bodyswap that made her vulnerable to influence, where an older wizard's mind would normally have been too set in its ways to be forcibly altered like that. Morgan is full of self-recrimination over not predicting that could be an issue.
Indeed but he was already hard at work on all the WC power structure long before she became a liability.
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Wait which book did camp kaboom get hit. It wasn't dead beat which I think you believe, snark. That is why our argument that we don't know when she was tampered with is valid. We aren't saying, or at least I'm not saying that she was tampered with pre dead beat beyond anything subtle like other senior council members were.
Camp kaboom occurs between dead beat and white knight which would give Peabody time to tamper with her.
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Wait, we KNOW Luccio was messed with. Is the question when did it start?
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The argument started on last Jonas post of first page, followed by snarks statement regarding Lucio, then my rebuttal.
Snark was in error on the timeline of camp kaboom which occurs between books in a flashback. So Lucio isn't exonerated as a potential leaker of camp kaboom due to not having been body swapped yet which is what snark believed, or at least implied. It is possible that she hadn't been tampered with yet but it can't be excluded as was suggested.
I hope that makes some sense.
Snark is correct in first post on this page but really doesn't pertain to the issue Jonas pointed out. That we really don't need another suspect to have compromised the location of camp kaboom other than Peabody, or him via tampered Lucio.
I still think Peabody had major support within the council to be so effective at compromising so many.
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The argument started on last Jonas post of first page, followed by snarks statement regarding Lucio, then my rebuttal.
Snark was in error on the timeline of camp kaboom which occurs between books in a flashback. So Lucio isn't exonerated as a potential leaker of camp kaboom due to not having been body swapped yet which is what snark believed, or at least implied. It is possible that she hadn't been tampered with yet but it can't be excluded as was suggested.
I hope that makes some sense.
Snark is correct in first post on this page but really doesn't pertain to the issue Jonas pointed out. That we really don't need another suspect to have compromised the location of camp kaboom other than Peabody, or him via tampered Lucio.
I still think Peabody had major support within the council to be so effective at compromising so many.
Indeed, it's nothing solid but. The look Langtry gave him was described like a hungry shark, sharks go into frenzies when wounded are in the water. So I think this was a reference to him being ready to 'eat' Peabody to preserve his own cover.
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Yeah, I've thought the same. I've argued the point that he is no good, or if good then was heavily manipulated in proven guilty.
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Yeah, I've thought the same. I've argued the point that he is no good, or if good then was heavily manipulated in proven guilty.
Personally I don't like Langtry, but I do think he wants to keep the council together. I don't believe he's working with the Black Council or anyone else. I think he was compromised by Peabody.
I think that Peabody compromised a BUNCH of the Wizards who frequented the Headquarters. I think Luccio got a double whammy. I think she was hit before and after her body swap, and that after was especially hard because she'd already been hammered as a more mature Wizard.
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First of all, I don't think, that Simon Petrovich is Cowl. Why? "Where is the Russian?" Cowl, from what I can remember, has a Germanic accent. Not Russian.
Langtry is a politician. He does what he can to stay in power and keep the White council together. That's why people who rebel aren't liked by him.
Camp Kaboom was hit some time before White Night.
Cowl doesn't like "the bad man Kemmler". Maybe we've seen his character, maybe not. It might be interesting, but I don't recall any characters with a German [ ok, it's also possible to be Netherland ] accent. But given, that Die Lieder des Erlkönigs were collected in Germany, he is already familiar with summoning Herne the Hunter.
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First of all, I don't think, that Simon Petrovich is Cowl. Why? "Where is the Russian?" Cowl, from what I can remember, has a Germanic accent. Not Russian.
I never thought of Cowl as having a German accent or really any kind of accent. The only clue Cowl might be German is he knew the difference between Shubert's music Erlkönig and Goethe's poem, which provide the words used in the song. However, you don't have to be Austrian or German to know who those two people were. Harry has any affinity for classical music so he's heard of Franz Shubert and probably went to concerts where his music was played. Whether he's read much poetry or anything by Goethe is something we have no way of knowing, but I wouldn't be surprised if Harry is much better read than the average college graduate because he doesn't have a TV, radio or the internet.
Cowl doesn't like "the bad man Kemmler". Maybe we've seen his character, maybe not. It might be interesting, but I don't recall any characters with a German [ ok, it's also possible to be Netherland ] accent. But given, that Die Lieder des Erlkönigs were collected in Germany, he is already familiar with summoning Herne the Hunter.
Maybe Cowl already knew about summoning Herne the Hunter or maybe he he didn't care who called him as long as it was done close enough for Cowl's purposes. Destroying the books was one way to prevent someone in say Milwaukee from calling up Lord Herne on the very night Cowl needed him in Chicago.
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I think it would make for a better story for Cowl to be someone that Harry has heard about or seen than for it to be some unknown magic-user that has been around for 100+ years and was never foreshadowed.
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Wait which book did camp kaboom get hit. It wasn't dead beat which I think you believe, snark. That is why our argument that we don't know when she was tampered with is valid. We aren't saying, or at least I'm not saying that she was tampered with pre dead beat beyond anything subtle like other senior council members were.
There were two training camps attacked - the one in PG that Michael helped Eb and the other SC heavies evacuate survivors from, and Camp Kaboom from Harry's flashback in WN that was hit by the ghoul raiders (even in the flashback, he was a Warden, so it had to be at most between DB and WN).
I don't think either was necessarily even anything to do with Luccio being compromised though. That's one possibility, but it's also possible Peabody might just have got a look at documents showing the locations and been overlooked as a suspect.
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I don't think Luccio or anyone else had to be compromised for the location of Camp Kaboom, or the previous Warden safehouses that Ebenezer mentions at the end of Proven Guilty, to be leaked. When Eb says that only a few people knew about it, he's simply wrong: he forgot about Peabody, the secretary who was managing all of the documentation for the ongoing war effort. Everything has a paper trail, and Peabody's role was maintaining it for the Council.
If you walk into any business, the person who knows more than anyone else is the CEO's secretary, even more than the CEO realizes. That's pretty much Peabody's job.
Also, I'm not sure Cowl's voice is evidence of much. My reading of the odd vibrations and warble to it was that he was deliberately disguising it with magic. I could be wrong, though.
Anyone know what the origin of the only spell we hear him use is? Dorosh? That might be a big clue; its language origin would probably at least eliminate a nationality or three. It sounds Central European to me.
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I never thought of Cowl as having a German accent or really any kind of accent. The only clue Cowl might be German is he knew the difference between Shubert's music Erlkönig and Goethe's poem, which provide the words used in the song. However, you don't have to be Austrian or German to know who those two people were. Harry has any affinity for classical music so he's heard of Franz Shubert and probably went to concerts where his music was played. Whether he's read much poetry or anything by Goethe is something we have no way of knowing, but I wouldn't be surprised if Harry is much better read than the average college graduate because he doesn't have a TV, radio or the internet.
I'm pretty sure Cowl's reference to Goethe was a quip jumping from Erlkonig to his even more famous work, the play Faust - as in, Cowl was alluding to having made a Faustian bargain himself, but it went over Harry's head at the time.
I doubt he has to be German to be familiar with those works though. Pretty much any wizard of European origin and sufficient age would presumably have been exposed to the range of classical music and literature. Most of the elderly, conventional Council types seem to make a point of flaunting that they're upper class - it probably would have been considered terribly vulgar not to educate their apprentices on culture as well as magic.
Cowl doesn't like "the bad man Kemmler".
That, again, falls under saying one thing in front of Kumori and another later when she's not listening. At Murphy's house, when she's inside searching for Bob and Cowl is talking to Harry outside, he makes it pretty clear that he has plenty of history with Kemmler and the other apprentices. He says knocking the power out while Grevane and Corpsetaker fought each other was par for the course - him doing the serious technical magic while they bickered - and that it was also normal that they'd present one face of smiling and getting along for the greater glory of Kemmler while planning to eliminate each other when the chance came.
He might not have been exactly an apprentice like the others. He might even have serious misgivings about Kemmler himself. But when he doesn't have to worry about shaking Kumori's delusion that he's in it for some greater good, he's quite free about admitting an association with Kemmler and company that goes beyond "nothing but disdain".
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I'm pretty sure Cowl's reference to Goethe was a quip jumping from Erlkonig to his even more famous work, the play Faust - as in, Cowl was alluding to having made a Faustian bargain himself, but it went over Harry's head at the time.
I doubt he has to be German to be familiar with those works though. Pretty much any wizard of European origin and sufficient age would presumably have been exposed to the range of classical music and literature. Most of the elderly, conventional Council types seem to make a point of flaunting that they're upper class - it probably would have been considered terribly vulgar not to educate their apprentices on culture as well as magic.
That, again, falls under saying one thing in front of Kumori and another later when she's not listening. At Murphy's house, when she's inside searching for Bob and Cowl is talking to Harry outside, he makes it pretty clear that he has plenty of history with Kemmler and the other apprentices. He says knocking the power out while Grevane and Corpsetaker fought each other was par for the course - him doing the serious technical magic while they bickered - and that it was also normal that they'd present one face of smiling and getting along for the greater glory of Kemmler while planning to eliminate each other when the chance came.
He might not have been exactly an apprentice like the others. He might even have serious misgivings about Kemmler himself. But when he doesn't have to worry about shaking Kumori's delusion that he's in it for some greater good, he's quite free about admitting an association with Kemmler and company that goes beyond "nothing but disdain".
I'm thinking that he was NOT an apprentice of Kemmler. I think he knew Kemmler, not necessarily friends, but knew him. What's more, if Cowl is Simon, then it's entirely possible, as a senior member of the council, he'd have access to all the records about and by Kemmler that the council collected.
The only thing against Simon, to me, is Cowls apparent desire for the council to fall.
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I think it would make for a better story for Cowl to be someone that Harry has heard about or seen than for it to be some unknown magic-user that has been around for 100+ years and was never foreshadowed.
I agree with you. I wish Harry had met a few more people on the Council in the books; I mean characters that have been fleshed out a bit, not just names like Klaus the Toy Maker, so we had more suspects and they would be people we might identify with and make this mystery matter more to the reader. If it turns out that Cowl is Simon, Ebenezer will be upset, but it won't have any emotional impact on me.
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Since cowl is so mysterious I wonder if Harry will pretend to be him at some point.