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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: MacPhoenix on July 23, 2017, 04:05:51 PM
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OK, so I recently went back and reread skin game. We all know that Mab has an important job in the universe, and Harry and Molly are helping out cause they know and don't have many choices. What we don't know is if Harry and Molly are ever going to get away from Mabs control I.E... the influence of the mantles. So, what I would like to hear from Dresden fandom is if leaving the mantles is even an option, has Jim said anything to elude their eventual escape, and if Harry/Molly ever win free of Winter what then?
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I think there was a mention of Tam Lin in the books as a previous Knight. The lore around Tam Lin suggests there's a way out. No details on just how safe he was afterwards, though. Women scorned and all that.
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I don't see anything that is likely to get Molly out of her connection to Winter, unless she somehow becomes Mother Winter and gives it up.
I expect Harry to lose the WK mantle just when it would be absolutely the worst time for it.
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At the end of Cold Days, the conversation between Harry and Kringle led me to believe there is a way to shed a mantel other than the stone table. "It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That's all." He looked directly at me and said, "Many, many mantels are worn--or discarded--on Halloween night, wizard." "You mean masks?" I asked, frowning. "Masks, mantels," Kringle said. "What's the difference?" He winked at me.
Also, Jim has said the Faerie courts only follow the letter of the law. Being how my brother and his wife are both attorneys, there is a loophole in pretty much every law and if anyone could find it Dresden can.
Lastly, in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Aes Sedia weren't able to lie. However, they could still speak untruths if they; witnessed an event wrong, believed the statement to be true, and ect. As we have learned many times in this series knowledge is power. Being able to discard a mantle is probably one of the closest guarded secrets.
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Stark choice, that's the loophole. Molly had been hanging out with Lea which in some way prepped her to receive the mantle. But at some point a choice was made, even if subconsciously, even if she didn't actually understand that she was agreeing to be a potential bearer. Now she chooses to use the mantle. But can she not choose something else? Has to be... Cause honestly, otherwise I there's a bone needs picking with Jim about the size of a t-rex thigh ;)
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I don't know about Molly, but Harry made a deal with Mab. He gave his word. He can't simply ditch the Mantle without Mab's consent. Or that of her successor.
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Where there is a will there is a way and Harry is as stubborn as they get. To gain the mantle, Harry had to kill a man; to lose the mantle possibly involves the sacrifice of a woman.
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I don't know about Molly, but Harry made a deal with Mab. He gave his word. He can't simply ditch the Mantle without Mab's consent. Or that of her successor.
That, or find a loophole in the original Bargain.
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That, or find a loophole in the original Bargain.
There's a real simple one, bargain was to become winter knight. Never said how long his tenure must be.
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There's a real simple one, bargain was to become winter knight. Never said how long his tenure must be.
That's not really a loophole in itself, there still needs to be a workable "Exit Condition." And simple things like "Death" dont do it, apparently. :P
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That's not really a loophole in itself, there still needs to be a workable "Exit Condition." And simple things like "Death" dont do it, apparently. :P
well, either he was dead, in which case he didn't have the mantle in actual death, it stayed with his body or he wasn't dead. that's the very definition of a loop hole. it's not 'exitable work condition' cause why would he have that already? Makes it too easy. It was never said he must stay WK, it was said he must BE winter knight.
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well, either he was dead, in which case he didn't have the mantle in actual death, it stayed with his body or he wasn't dead. that's the very definition of a loop hole. it's not 'exitable work condition' cause why would he have that already? Makes it too easy. It was never said he must stay WK, it was said he must BE winter knight.
Two things:
1)If your proposed exit condition is Death, that's fine. But just because the bargain did not specifically say "Service for All Time" or some such does not mean that there is actually any way to get out of it and survive. I mean, we know bleeding out on the Stone Table will technically remove the Mantle from him, as will getting Eaten by Mother Winter, but that not really what we're looking for here.
2)Death is very explicitly not that kind of Black&White scenario, there is a whole lot of Grey there according to Mab, Uriel, and even Bob. All our best sources of information.
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Two things:
1)If your proposed exit condition is Death, that's fine. But just because the bargain did not specifically say "Service for All Time" or some such does not mean that there is actually any way to get out of it and survive. I mean, we know bleeding out on the Stone Table will technically remove the Mantle from him, as will getting Eaten by Mother Winter, but that not really what we're looking for here.
2)Death is very explicitly not that kind of Black&White scenario, there is a whole lot of Grey there according to Mab, Uriel, and even Bob. All our best sources of information.
But by what logic are you using to say that isn't a true fact of the bargain? Your saying he can't get out of it in one piece, that's speculative. It's a provable fact fae keep the letter of the law, and the letter doesn't say he can't just quit. He might need the right knowledge of how to do so. But nothing you have so far said excludes the fact he can leave or the letter of the bargain is to be the WK, not serve a specific tenure.
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But by what logic are you using to say that isn't a true fact of the bargain? Your saying he can't get out of it in one piece, that's speculative. It's a provable fact fae keep the letter of the law, and the letter doesn't say he can't just quit. He might need the right knowledge of how to do so. But nothing you have so far said excludes the fact he can leave or the letter of the bargain is to be the WK, not serve a specific tenure.
No, Im not saying that at all. Im just saying that there is a difference between say "it's Possible" and actually saying How it's possible.
My theory* for How is that he'll be able to leverage the different limitations of his SK bargain with Mab for Three Favors (which per WOJ is still in play) and the Bargain for his service as a Winter Knight. She cannot order him to harm a loved one, but if she REALLY REALLY needs to she might be forced to use that Final Favor. And by A strict legalese reading of it, the argument can be made that once the third favor is used up it will wipe ALL current bargains he has with the Fae, including bargains that were made after the fact (ie the Knighthood Bargain)
Sorry, I thought Id posted the theory in this thread already, but it must have been one of the other recent ones.
Cant find the WOJ confirming that the 3rd favor was technically still in play, but here's the one about Death getting you out of the Knighthood.
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#318 “Does Dresden’s current condition mean that the Knights power has flowed back to Mab?”
That’s one of those questions that will be more fun to answer in the book. :)
But merely being dead does /not/ necessarily get you out of promises to Mab all by itself. I mean, come on. Like she’s never heard THAT lame excuse before… :)
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Just wanted to say this is gold guys.
It seems this thread was duplicated some how, but we will just flow with it.
I didn't mean Mother Winter left off being Winter; she just lost some of her influence on the mortal world. I. E... that is what I thought was meant by retired.
I never thought of the courts actually being destroyed. I wonder if that would mean Harry and Molly would have to you know... "save the species". ;) ;)
What ever he has to do for Mother Winter can't be good, or at least not good for Harry's health.
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IIRC, didn't Mab say he was HER'S, Blood and Bone, Mind and Body?
Well, what if his soul, or some other aspect of his being were to be given or taken by another being? Couldn't that be an out?
I mean, prior to his bargain with Mab, he already belonged to Demonreach. That could be a means for him to be able to leave the service of Mab. If there was some kind of conflict that required that he make a choice of one or the other, DR has an older claim.
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IIRC, didn't Mab say he was HER'S, Blood and Bone, Mind and Body?
Well, what if his soul, or some other aspect of his being were to be given or taken by another being? Couldn't that be an out?
I mean, prior to his bargain with Mab, he already belonged to Demonreach. That could be a means for him to be able to leave the service of Mab. If there was some kind of conflict that required that he make a choice of one or the other, DR has an older claim.
I still think Mab owes him a favor, and he'll eventually use it to free either himself or Molly. I'm not sure that both of them are getting out, though. Maybe he could find the Tam Lin 'out', and then use a theoretical favor for Molly.
But I seriously doubt he's going to quit anytime soon. He knows what's at stake, and his mantle power is one of the best tools he has going for himself. He's basically turned into an Arcane Warrior that can fight and cast spells equally.
I'm also hoping that he keeps the mantle for the duration of the series because I think Mab's fall-back plan is to kill him on the stone table to try and absorb his starborn power. I'm hoping the closest we come to seeing that is in the Mirroverse, where -Mab will have Harry hand a still breathing -Harry over to -Winter -Knight -Thomas to be sacrificed on their -Table. Which will then clue Harry in to Mab's backup plan, which he can then avoid.
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All in all I am tired of Harry, Murph, and the crew getting screwed over. It is time for them to Skin everyone else Alive.
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All in all I am tired of Harry, Murph, and the crew getting screwed over. It is time for them to Skin everyone else Alive.
Well said!!
Though in hindsight I doubt Mab ever truly skrew Harry and co. She might be a real bitch to Harry, but she is good on her deals and so far it seems her intentions is as good as her methods are harsh.
In the end, the greatest hurt Harry ever suffers is a direct result of his own idiotic and arrogant decision to kill himself. Granted, the winter knight gig is nothing good, but his own bad choices is far worse then what Mab had ever done to him up until now.
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All in all I am tired of Harry, Murph, and the crew getting screwed over. It is time for them to Skin everyone else Alive.
I can't disagree with your sentiment, but that is something that's not going to change. Harry keeps sticking his nose into business that is none of his.