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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on July 14, 2017, 04:14:35 PM
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What would happen if a coin carrying Denarian were to be sacrificed on the stone table?
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Depends on which court gets the power id imagine. If winter I think were screwed.
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I suspect there's a difference between a mantle bearer and a coin bearer, from the perspective of power possession. The mantles seem to be tools bonded with the bearer. The coins likely retain the power without actually giving anything over, other than lending it out.
If a coin bearer were sacrificed, the coin would probably roll away as quickly as possible, but it's power would be cut off before that.
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I suspect there's a difference between a mantle bearer and a coin bearer, from the perspective of power possession. The mantles seem to be tools bonded with the bearer. The coins likely retain the power without actually giving anything over, other than lending it out.
If a coin bearer were sacrificed, the coin would probably roll away as quickly as possible, but it's power would be cut off before that.
And if the sacrificial blade were to pass through the coin?
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I don't think the relationship between the Fallen and host is such that the Stone Table could be used to consume the angel's power. They let the host use a portion of their power, but I can't see the Fallen being anything worse than somewhat weakened to the tune of whatever fraction they delegated to the host's use (like a Knight holds power enough to upset the balance between courts, but sacrificing him isn't going to depower the Queens from whose power his mantle was sourced).
As for breaking the coin itself, I believe the WOJ on that would still apply (basically, it's absurdly difficult and would release the Fallen rather than kill them anyway).
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And if the sacrificial blade were to pass through the coin?
What if a square were round?
There is no blade that can pass through a coin, it would hit the coin, and deflect a little bit to pass through the skin next to the coin.
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What if a square were round?
There is no blade that can pass through a coin, it would hit the coin, and deflect a little bit to pass through the skin next to the coin.
Really? In the never-never? Wielded by ... Mother Winter?
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Even then.
The coins may or may not be indestructible (see http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1143), but I don't think any physical weapon will be enough.
For argument's sake, if a weapon could cut a coin on the table, I think you just free the Denarian, because you've only destroyed the prison, not the prisoner.
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And if the sacrificial blade were to pass through the coin?
A whole bunch of this.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d0/e3/90/d0e3901f2495219275a6b06e51d01d2b.gif)
And this.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/QA88yMhazfDI4/giphy.gif)
And some of this.
(http://i.imgur.com/Thy0lVH.gif)
And maybe some of this.
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/legendsofthemultiuniverse/images/a/ad/Vegeta_dodge.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140906071353)
But mostly this.
(https://orig15.deviantart.net/d7ff/f/2014/090/8/b/kit_tickle_tortured_gif_by_bondomunk-d7ce1l3.gif)
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There is no blade that can pass through a coin, it would hit the coin, and deflect a little bit to pass through the skin next to the coin.
Well ... the faithsaber just possibly might. And we don't have a clue of the abilities of the knife (spearpoint?) from Hades' vault yet.
But from Harry's description of their auras, both of those are vastly more powerful than even Medea's bodkin.
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If a Sword can destroy a coin, then they wouldn't need to keep locking them away.
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They should irradiate the coins in a nuclear reactor so that no one can ever safely handle them.
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The descriptions of the well, make it sound like it is capable of containing the goin collection. Especially with a warden with soul hire, and a pseudo nephlim spirit of intellect daughter.
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Really? In the never-never? Wielded by ... Mother Winter?
That would be my bet.
JB has pointed out that the Coins have been around for ~2000 years, and there have been attempts to release their prisoners. So far, no dice. I'd guess that even Mother Winter would bounce off.
As for sacrificing a Denarian, I think the only thing the Table would get is the personal, innate power of the Denarian. The Coin is more like a weapon or a carried object, it probably makes no more sense to talk about sacrificing a Coin on the Table than it does to ask what would happen if you sacrificed Harry's .44 or Stallings' badge on the Table. Meaningless.
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They should irradiate the coins in a nuclear reactor so that no one can ever safely handle them.
You're assuming that would have an effect. I tend to doubt it would. If the Coins are immune to change in the sense of melting or hammering or whatever, there's no reason to assume they can undergo nuclear transmutations either.
Now, you might just be on to a tactic, though. You probably can't make the Coins radioactive as such, but you could possibly put radioactive material on them. Say, dip one in glue, then sprinkle it would radioactive dust. But over time that would fade away (as a rule, the more powerful the radiation, the shorter the half-life) and it could be removed by removing the sticky coating.
Or you could coat the Coin in poison, or corrosive, or something, but it could still be washed off.
Of course, making the Coins lethal on contact temporarily removes the risk of a new Denarian, but it has its own nasty moral problems, and the Adversary has plenty of time, at least on a mortal scale. The Fallen could just wait until the radiation fades away, or somebody washes the poison off, or whatever.
A more practical idea, it seems to me, and more moral, is Harry's approach. Take the Coins, encase them in blocks of high-density concrete, that sort of thing. Make them physically harder to touch at all.
But nothing will work for very long, by the very nature of the case. The Coins, to borrow a line from Tolkien, 'have a way of being found'.
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The descriptions of the well, make it sound like it is capable of containing the goin collection. Especially with a warden with soul hire, and a pseudo nephlim spirit of intellect daughter.
Yeah, it would probably keep them down longer than anyplace else...but the flip side is that you're bringing the Coins together with some serious badness in one place. It might not be likely to go wrong, but if it did go wrong, it would probably do so spectacularly.
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I think the coins would definitely rate maximum security wing of the prison.
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I think the coins would definitely rate maximum security wing of the prison.
I don't know about all the coins, but Nick and Tessa for sure.
Also, I wonder if Harry CAN contain just the coins, or does there need to be a host to contain it as well.
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What I kind of wonder is if there's anything in play that could destroy the Stone Table itself? And if you did, what would happen?
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Also, I wonder if Harry CAN contain just the coins, or does there need to be a host to contain it as well.
The blessed cloths the Knights and Forthill cover captured coins in seem to prevent the other Denarians summoning a compatriot's coin back to them, basically the faith magic equivalent of wards. The problem seems to be a human leak in the Church storage facility, not that Nic and Tessa have figured out a way around the countermeasures against summoning coins. So just putting the warded coins underground on Demonreach where Harry is the only one with access should put them out of reach of being freed.
What I kind of wonder is if there's anything in play that could destroy the Stone Table itself? And if you did, what would happen?
Probably. It's a big enchantment, but one of the remaining warden swords might do it. Fidelacchius probably would, now. What would happen? Probably an explosion, from the stored energy being released.
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The descriptions of the well, make it sound like it is capable of containing the coin collection. Especially with a warden with soul hire, and a pseudo nephlim spirit of intellect daughter.
I suspect it would be useless. Oh I agree the well could contain the fallen angel. But it would be pointless. The coins represent an agreement between the angels and the fallen angels. Imprisoning the coin in the well would not change that agreement. A new fallen angel might be sent out to replace the imprisoned one.
It can be argued that imprisoning the coin is a mortal decision and thus would be honored -- but I suspect there would be other consequences to balance the scale.
I personally think balance requires the angelic forces to hold back more when a coin is imprisoned then when the fallen is actively working in the world. This applies when a coin is held by the church or any other safe keeping. However, when the coin is in the world actively tempting someone, that counts as fallen activity. If this is true, then Harry having the coin for a few years without using it (despite temptation) would then have been a good thing -- allowing angelic intervention without also allowing fallen evil to occur.
The blessed cloths the Knights and Forthill cover captured coins in seem to prevent the other Denarians summoning a compatriot's coin back to them
The coins are all about choice. That is why a fallen cannot just put a coin in your hand to corrupt you. It does not work that way. I suspect that choosing to give up the coin operates the same way in reverse. It blocks the person from calling the coin. I suspect the only people who "could" call the coin are people who choose to take a coin, but have not yet given it up. Even other fallen could not summon a coin.
As for sacrificing a Denarian, I think the only thing the Table would get is the personal, innate power of the Denarian. The Coin is more like a weapon or a carried object, it probably makes no more sense to talk about sacrificing a Coin on the Table than it does to ask what would happen if you sacrificed Harry's .44 or Stallings' badge on the Table.
The Denarian is the possessing spirit. It has no blood to be spilled on the stone table. The possessed mortal does have blood, but the fallen angel power is not imbued in that blood. So quite doable, but not very useful assuming you can make it work in any case.
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The coins are all about choice. That is why a fallen cannot just put a coin in your hand to corrupt you. It does not work that way. I suspect that choosing to give up the coin operates the same way in reverse. It blocks the person from calling the coin. I suspect the only people who "could" call the coin are people who choose to take a coin, but have not yet given it up. Even other fallen could not summon a coin.
That's at odds with the fact that of the Knights using the blessed cloths for containment as a general protocol (e.g. in DM when they kill Ursiel's bearer, and Cassius chooses to give up his coin to have his life spared), not just in the (presumably rare) case of separating a coin from a living and resisting host who wants it back. If it's just a matter of not making skin contact themselves to get stuck with a shadow, any gloves or bag would do.
I suspect at least some of the senior coin holders like Nic and Tessa can call another Fallen's coin to retrieve them - it's probably more difficult and time consuming than for someone who already carries that Fallen's shadow, likely requiring some sort of ritual performed, but the Church's precautions with coins dropped from a dead host or surrendered willingly wouldn't make sense otherwise.
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What I kind of wonder is if there's anything in play that could destroy the Stone Table itself? And if you did, what would happen?
Mother Winter's unraveling could destroy it's pretty. A simple jackhammer could probably destroy the actual table. My guess is destroying the stone table only stops it from being used in the future, nothing happens retroactively.
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Mother Winter's unraveling could destroy it's pretty. A simple jackhammer could probably destroy the actual table. My guess is destroying the stone table only stops it from being used in the future, nothing happens retroactively.
Bah, Im quite certain you would need a boatload more than just power tools.
Why would it have possibly done anything retroactively?
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Bah, Im quite certain you would need a boatload more than just power tools.
Why would it have possibly done anything retroactively?
Why are you so certain? I think the difficulty of getting to it with a power tool (and enough batteries or a generator to run it) and the as-whooping the Faerie Queens would give you if you tried are plenty of protection.
I see no reason there would be a be retroactive effect. I just assumed since there be was a question as to what would happen be that the questioner was imagining some consequence worse than "it can no longer be be be used."
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Why are you so certain? I think the difficulty of getting to it with a power tool (and enough batteries or a generator to run it) and the as-whooping the Faerie Queens would give you if you tried are plenty of protection.
Because as far as I can tell it's the single most powerful artifact we've yet seen, with the possible exception of the Gates themselves.
But let me back up on one point: Iron. I wasnt taking into consideration the apparently Absolute way that Iron bypasses all Powers of the Fae. If the Table is subject to that (possible, but not guaranteed until we find out why Mother Winter has been seen touching steel) then it's possible that it would bypass whatever Cosmic Cornerstone Protections the Table might possess.
I see no reason there would be a be retroactive effect. I just assumed since there be was a question as to what would happen be that the questioner was imagining some consequence worse than "it can no longer be be be used."
It's the lynch-pin of the entire Summer/Winter structure, which is in turn the lynch-pin of both the natural order of the World and the Defenses of the Outer Gates. One side having a stronger Knight than the other supposedly caused Global Warming. Loosing the Whole thing would likely be a pretty big deal for EVERYONE, not just the courts that could no longer gain power via that sort of sacrifice.
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The stone table likely Unites the different courts and factions of the lands of faerie. Part of me wonders if since the fomor are the result of so many different groups, they have something akin to the stone table for themselves. To bind themselves together and pool their powers and energies.
Since it was said the fomor were part faerie, I kinda expected them to end up being sacrificed on the stone table. So if the fomor did hove something uniting their power, could tHat be used to steal it for the stone table?
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The stone table likely Unites the different courts and factions of the lands of faerie. Part of me wonders if since the fomor are the result of so many different groups, they have something akin to the stone table for themselves. To bind themselves together and pool their powers and energies.
Interesting. Im pretty sure they are harvesting low-level talents to steal and consolidate their Power into one uber-practitioner, but Id imagined a more individual ritual sort of thing, rather than a big old Artifact of legend.
Either way I doubt it's as integral to their organization, as it is with the Summer/Winter courts, but then the Summer/Winter system was very specifically designed and built by their predecessors. And I still have no idea how the Stone Table related to the Wyldfae.
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The stone table likely Unites the different courts and factions of the lands of faerie. Part of me wonders if since the fomor are the result of so many different groups, they have something akin to the stone table for themselves. To bind themselves together and pool their powers and energies.
Since it was said the fomor were part faerie, I kinda expected them to end up being sacrificed on the stone table. So if the fomor did hove something uniting their power, could tHat be used to steal it for the stone table?
The Sidhe have the stone table.
The Fomor have the Floating dock.
Obvious, really.
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Either way I doubt it's as integral to their organization, as it is with the Summer/Winter courts, but then the Summer/Winter system was very specifically designed and built by their predecessors. And I still have no idea how the Stone Table related to the Wyldfae.
It might not. Whoever created the Courts (presumably Hecate splitting her power, plus unspecified allies) may just have ignored the wyldfae as outside of what they needed.
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It might not. Whoever created the Courts (presumably Hecate splitting her power, plus unspecified allies) may just have ignored the wyldfae as outside of what they needed.
One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?
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The fomor are the remains of defeated dark pantheons. So they would have few mantles and immortals available, otherwise they would not have banded together. If those few beings of power were stolen away and slain on the stone table, that permantly rob the fomor of that power.
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One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?
Well, she wasn't as powerful the sum of both modern Courts at the start - a lot of their power came from sacrifices on the table since the separate courts were established.
As to why she divided her power, she probably understood that earth would need protecting from the Unseelie even as they protected earth and Faerie from the Outsiders. She had to ensure a matched balance at the leadership level out of the pool of power available at the time.
I do hope at some point to find out whether Mother Winter is the original Hecate, or Hecate died sacrificing herself to establish the new order.
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The WOJ about the current system being created said that is was due to the previous group's Power/influence in the world being on the decline. By the Hecate connection Im assuming that is referring either to the greco-roman pantheon specifically, or (my much preferred) a larger coalition of the Human Pantheons of the day (including the Aesir, and hopefully others like the Persian or the Hindu or the Egyptian pantheons. Ideally including some pantheons that are all but unknown to contemporary fiction. The decline I think was a general movement of globalization and less and less tribal-nations, etc. Or, the early beginnings of the the ascent of Reason and Scientific thought/observation. Or something else entirely, like a Starborn causing a ruckus.
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The decline I think was a general movement of globalization and less and less tribal-nations, etc. Or, the early beginnings of the the ascent of Reason and Scientific thought/observation. Or something else entirely, like a Starborn causing a ruckus.
I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.
Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.
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I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.
Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.
This, with the caveat that monotheistic pantheons couldn't take over the Gates themselves because of restrictive purviews imposed upon them by mortal beliefs.
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This, with the caveat that monotheistic pantheons couldn't take over the Gates themselves because of restrictive purviews imposed upon them by mortal beliefs.
What do you mean?
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I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.
It woudl certainly be on the late end of things. Im not saying the Rennasaince or anything, but rather when the shift went from Faith to logical Reasoning, which began 500BC according to this. By Hastings, people were publishing refutations of the Aristotelian classic elements and were gaining a modern understanding of disease, medicine, optics, etc. All these things were becoming explain as Natural parts of the world rather than the Power and mercurial tempers of Gods and Monsters.
Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.
This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.
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This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.
What if ... the Blackstaff was the actual Staff portion of the Spear of Longinus?
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It is claimed the fomor include Titans and Giants, those that were the precursors to the more mortal aligned pantheons. The primordial pantheons, the more element ally aligned divinities. So if the faerie courts have the more human pantheons, would the fomor gathered the elemental pantheons.
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What do you mean?
Free will.
Polytheistic religions appear to have revolved around deities controlling many aspects of people's daily lives, and therefore worshippers might have granted those same deities a level of authority to act as they saw fit. A sacrifice of free will to them gave them a measure of free will, which freed them to do what was necessary without humanity's knowledge.
Monotheistic religions appear, with certain exceptions, to accept that their deity is absolute, but also granted humanity free will to decide their own fate. This leads to an absence of free will imparted upon the monotheistic pantheon, save for when believers individually seek intervention.
This could have led to a strict purview, which is suggested by Uriel's commentary, on what they can and cannot do. There may be differences in degrees between the different monotheistic pantheons, but on the whole, they're not getting enough to act.
Hence the need for a constructed pantheon based on elemental forces humanity still recognizes as beyond their control, and therefore collectively plans it's life around.
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I don't know about all the coins, but Nick and Tessa for sure.
The Fallen in the coins are significant on Demonreach-level; Nic and Tessa themselves aren't even close. Tessa is a wizard (Council-level, but nowhere near, say, Morgan or Luccio level ability) with some physical enhancements and the ability to turn into a swarm of bugs. Nic has super shadow spying abilities and a really powerful magical item, but that's about it.
Naagloshii are minimum security in Demonreach. One of those would easily, trivially destroy Nic or Tessa - probably both of them working together. (Even Nic, actually, given that naagloshii have intellectus about how to hurt people.)
A more practical idea, it seems to me, and more moral, is Harry's approach. Take the Coins, encase them in blocks of high-density concrete, that sort of thing. Make them physically harder to touch at all.
Yeah. Put them in concrete blocks then drop them in a deep part of the Pacific. That ought to work for a while at least... just watch for people sending submarines into that area...
One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?
Maybe she didn't, intentionally.
While it would go against one of my other WAGs ("MW is the original Hecate, thus an Ascended Hecatean Hag, thus not Fae and that's why she can touch iron") - maybe the original Hecate was killed on Halloween in some way that forced the split. (Killed by two people who divided her mantle among them?)
Immortals trade bits of mantles on Halloween, according to Bob. Hmmm... maybe the two WAGs are actually compatible - maybe the original Mother Summer stole half of the original Hecate's power through some kind of ritual or something (without killing her).
The later delegation of power from Mother to Queen, Lady, Knight on each side IMO is a simple matter of getting around the inherently limiting nature of having "reality crushing" level power -- and it's probably not that much loss anyway. If MW is an order of magnitude stronger than Mab and Mab's an order of magnitude stronger than the Winter Lady, MW's only lost 11% of her original power.
What if ... the Blackstaff was the actual Staff portion of the Spear of Longinus?
IIRC there's a WOJ hint along the lines of "Celtic lore around 1065 AD", so probably not.
This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.
Medea's bodkin would be significantly older - Medea ought to be from the heroic age of Greek myth, around the time of the Trojan War - say 1300-1200 BC.
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I wonder, since the knights are part of the Queen power, can they summon the table when needed? It is said the Knights are expressions of power, do could they also accept power?
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Medea's bodkin would be significantly older - Medea ought to be from the heroic age of Greek myth, around the time of the Trojan War - say 1300-1200 BC.
True, but it's "power" is more in line with the Athame, ie power by use/association. As compared to "Objects with actual, innate Power", which per WOJ the athame was not, but the Swords and Noose and Blackstaff were (and I strongly suspect the Vault 7 artifacts as well).
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True, but it's "power" is more in line with the Athame, ie power by use/association. As compared to "Objects with actual, innate Power", which per WOJ the athame was not, but the Swords and Noose and Blackstaff were (and I strongly suspect the Vault 7 artifacts as well).
Grail
Knife (Spearhead?)
Crown of Thorns
Sign/Placard
Shroud
Were there 2 that I'm misremembering?
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Grail
Knife (Spearhead?)
Crown of Thorns
Sign/Placard
Shroud
Were there 2 that I'm misremembering?
Swords and Noose
Oh, wait: That was "Vault #7", not seven items from the Vault. Is that what you meant?
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Oh ... Sorry, Misread it. Thought you were saying there were 7 items taken from the vault (not counting the diamonds)
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Oh ... Sorry, Misread it. Thought you were saying there were 7 items taken from the vault (not counting the diamonds)
RogerRoger.
There are seven total Crucifixion artifacts running around (if you count the Nails as one), which is a good hoodoo number. Though it's literally Nine, which is the recurring Magic Number in the Norse mythos. curiouser and curiouser...
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As compared to "Objects with actual, innate Power", which per WOJ the athame was not
Wait, really? I thought there was a WOJ saying it was "a vector for power".
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Wait, really? I thought there was a WOJ saying it was "a vector for power".
It was a vector for power (woj) (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10792.msg440528.html#msg440528), yes I think this was a reference to it being a Nemesis vector, but see below for yourself. But well after GP there was a WOJ that the only objects with actual power "Special Abilities" all their own were the Swords, the Noose, and the Blackstaff. So I think that makes the athame closer to an enchanted Item (something that had Power imparted on it) as opposed to the true Artifacts (in the DnD sense) that these other special cases seem to be.
We've been told the Blackstaff is a direct line to elemental forces of the Universe, and the Swords are a direct Line to the Archangel's Boss. Makes you wonder who's sponsoring the Noose, no?
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
Is the Merlin’s staff a special staff of office, like the Blackstaff, with special abilities?
There are very few objects that have “special abilities.” I’ve only shown about five of them, in fact, including the Swords, the Blackstaff, and the Noose.
2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
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Jim has only shown about 5. Not to say that there ARE only 5, eh?
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Jim has only shown about 5. Not to say that there ARE only 5, eh?
Oh, absolutely. It was 5 back in 2011. But like I said, Im pretty sure we saw 5 more in SG.
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Oh, absolutely. It was 5 back in 2011. But like I said, Im pretty sure we saw 5 more in SG.
Ah, okay, gotcha