ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on July 04, 2017, 12:57:22 AM
-
For the longest time I believed Ferrovax was Nemfected at Bianca's ball. However my brother came up with what I thought was a pretty good idea. Jim said that Ferro's gift was gold, and jewels. My brother said that maybe one of the gold coins was from one of the Fallen.
That's a pretty scary prospect right there. A Dragon joined with a Fallen. This makes sense for a few of reasons.
1. Nicodemus believes the Black Council is working with some of the Fallen, and wants them stopped. So Cowl getting one of the Fallen he's aligned with to Ferrovax makes sense.
2. There was an attack on Arctis Tor, and when Harry saw the damage he commented that he couldn't have done that much damage even with Hellfire. Well a Dragon using hellfire probably could.
3. We would actually see a fight between a Knight or Knights, and Dragon which sounds like something Jim would want to write.
-
Isn't there a WoJ out there about seeing something like Kaiju in one of the books? Ferrovax in his full glory seems like a likely candidate.
Here's the quote: "But yeah – we’ve still got professional wrestling, and dragons, and kaiju and all kinds of cool stuff ahead of us."
So he even mentions dragons right before kaiju. Perhaps we'll see Ferrovax facing a Cthulhuesque horror rising from the ocean?
Edit: On the flip side... although we've now seen the Genoskwa take up a coin... I do think there are limits. A coin-bearer has to have free will. Mab couldn't take up a coin, I think. So I'd be surprised if Ferrovax could. Otherwise, why would all of the Denarians we've met be walking around in flimsy mortal humans?
-
3 its to be a wizard vs dragon last time I checked that woj. I'd bet Ferro, and at Mabs behest. Cause she don't wanna fight an iron elemental dragon.
The coin isn't something i'd thought of, its possible since he had the roman meat suit he has such a part of himself that's possible to choose but idk. Always figured the centurion part of him because he ate some of that lost roman legion on its way to Alera :0
-
Harry could resist the shadow of The Temptress of the Fallen.
How much resistance do you think a Dragon would provide to a similar shadow, and how do you think he would react to an attempt to subvert him?
-
For the longest time I believed Ferrovax was Nemfected at Bianca's ball. However my brother came up with what I thought was a pretty good idea. Jim said that Ferro's gift was gold, and jewels. My brother said that maybe one of the gold coins was from one of the Fallen.
That's a pretty scary prospect right there. A Dragon joined with a Fallen. This makes sense for a few of reasons.
1. Nicodemus believes the Black Council is working with some of the Fallen, and wants them stopped. So Cowl getting one of the Fallen he's aligned with to Ferrovax makes sense.
2. There was an attack on Arctis Tor, and when Harry saw the damage he commented that he couldn't have done that much damage even with Hellfire. Well a Dragon using hellfire probably could.
3. We would actually see a fight between a Knight or Knights, and Dragon which sounds like something Jim would want to write.
I believe you have to be mortal to be affected by the Fallen, Dragons are semi-divine they are immutable and have limitations when in the mortal realm. But an Nemesis infected Dragon might cause a Civil War amongst the other Dragons and Kaiju, or any other supernatural powers whatever causes the most Chaos.
-
I believe you have to be mortal to be affected by the Fallen, Dragons are semi-divine they are immutable. But an Nemesis infected Dragon might cause a Civil War amongst the other Dragons and Kaiju, or any other supernatural powers whatever causes the most Chaos.
Jim described the Angels as immutable when it comes to Nemesis infection. If a Dragon is immutable I don't see why they would be vulnerable to Nemesis infection.
have limitations when in the mortal realm.
Perhaps but the attack on Arctis tor wasn't in the mortal realm.
There could be rules on the issue making a Dragon unable to take up a Coin.... A Bigfoot took up a Coin, and Goodman Grey was offered a Coin so we can assume he could take it up. Coins aren't limited to mortals.
-
The coins are silver denari, not gold.
-
2. There was an attack on Arctis Tor, and when Harry saw the damage he commented that he couldn't have done that much damage even with Hellfire. Well a Dragon using hellfire probably could.
Harry had a mere shadow of a Fallen in his head, and some of the Denarians were stronger in their own right than he was as of PG. I would not conclude that the magnitude of damage there could only be attributed to inhumanly powerful hosts - Namshiel probably could have done it alone, or in combination with Tessa and / or Rosanna.
A Bigfoot took up a Coin, and Goodman Grey was offered a Coin so we can assume he could take it up. Coins aren't limited to mortals.
They're still a great deal closer to mortal-kind than they are to Dragons. I can't really see any of the Fallen risking bonding to something that might realistically be more powerful than they themselves are, and possibly getting stuck as the junior partner.
I'd buy Dragons being susceptible to N-fection more plausibly than them being suitable for coins, but I'm not yet convinced Ferrovax was targeted with either. It seems a little unsurprising for them to have played the same trick on him that they got Lea with, at this point, and the coin theory would just be upscaling the same surprise that the Genoskwa was already used for. I kind of think Jim will have something more out of left field for Mr. Ferro's next appearance.
-
Jim described the Angels as immutable when it comes to Nemesis infection. If a Dragon is immutable I don't see why they would be vulnerable to Nemesis infection.
Perhaps but the attack on Arctis tor wasn't in the mortal realm.
There could be rules on the issue making a Dragon unable to take up a Coin.... A Bigfoot took up a Coin, and Goodman Grey was offered a Coin so we can assume he could take it up. Coins aren't limited to mortals.
Goodman Grey and Bigfoot are mortals, I think. From the supernatural POV, I suspect they would count as human. I'm pretty sure they, and the White Court, for this purpose count as 'free willed mortals'. You can be mortal and still have a real long lifespan and supernatural power. Harry is mortal, even though he could theoretically live 400 years and can throw around fireballs.
-
Years ago, in a television interview, actor Vincent Price was asked, based on his career in horror films, what he considered the most frightening Hollywood Movie Monster was.
His reply: "A man without a conscience."
The Denarians that are so subsumed by the dark angels in their coins don't count; they're more animal than human.
To me, Nicodemus himself is the worst of the lot for the reason Price pointed out. He's a man - intelligent, educated, utterly ruthless and all but devoid of conscience (issues of his daughter aside). He is capable of truly horrific acts that would be found few other places... certainly nowhere in the natural animal kingdom on Earth. One would have to go to the realms of the supernatural to find equal or worse.
Just a thought
-
Years ago, in a television interview, actor Vincent Price was asked, based on his career in horror films, what he considered the most frightening Hollywood Movie Monster was.
His reply: "A man without a conscience."
The Denarians that are so subsumed by the dark angels in their coins don't count; they're more animal than human.
To me, Nicodemus himself is the worst of the lot for the reason Price pointed out. He's a man - intelligent, educated, utterly ruthless and all but devoid of conscience (issues of his daughter aside). He is capable of truly horrific acts that would be found few other places... certainly nowhere in the natural animal kingdom on Earth. One would have to go to the realms of the supernatural to find equal or worse.
Just a thought
He has a conscience. Not much of one, or a twisted one but he has one. The Joker from the Dark Knight.... That was a person without a conscience
-
Jim described the Angels as immutable when it comes to Nemesis infection. If a Dragon is immutable I don't see why they would be vulnerable to Nemesis infection.
Nemesis doesnt require a Mortal Soul, but a Fallen does. They need a host with Free Will, the same what the Queens need a Knight with it.
There could be rules on the issue making a Dragon unable to take up a Coin.... A Bigfoot took up a Coin, and Goodman Grey was offered a Coin so we can assume he could take it up. Coins aren't limited to mortals.
Goodman Grey still has his Free Will, per WOJ. And apparently the Bigfoots are just an offshoot hominid, but native to the Mortal World. White Court are Ageless and "Half-born" but not truly Immortal by the definition provided in CD.
-
I'm more of the opinion of ... Why?
It seems to me that when created, Dragons were created with the purpose of guarding certain aspects of reality. Angels were created for a similar purpose (sort of).
It seems like a fallen trying to influence, or even take over a Dragon would have a major hard time of it. Also, wouldn't the knowledge that a Fallen has be more or less redundant for a Dragon?
I just don't see the benefit of a dragon with a coin.
-
I'm more of the opinion of ... Why?
It seems to me that when created, Dragons were created with the purpose of guarding certain aspects of reality. Angels were created for a similar purpose (sort of).
It seems like a fallen trying to influence, or even take over a Dragon would have a major hard time of it. Also, wouldn't the knowledge that a Fallen has be more or less redundant for a Dragon?
I just don't see the benefit of a dragon with a coin.
Presumably there would be Power in addition to any redundant Knowledge. But also the Angels are a hell of a lot older than most things even at the divine level; Im not sure if the Dragons (semi-divine though they might be) are at that "Predating Reality, Absolute and immune to Nemesis" level that Angels are purported to be.
-
Presumably there would be Power in addition to any redundant Knowledge. But also the Angels are a hell of a lot older than most things even at the divine level; Im not sure if the Dragons (semi-divine though they might be) are at that "Predating Reality, Absolute and immune to Nemesis" level that Angels are purported to be.
I was talking about taking up a coin, not being nemfected. I believe that there may be an issue with Ferrofax, but I doubt its either a fallen or nemesis.
-
I was talking about taking up a coin, not being nemfected. I believe that there may be an issue with Ferrofax, but I doubt its either a fallen or nemesis.
Me too. You were saying that Dragons and Angels are basically equivalent so partnering the two would be no net benefit, no? That is what I was disagreeing with.
-
Me too. You were saying that Dragons and Angels are basically equivalent so partnering the two would be no net benefit, no? That is what I was disagreeing with.
Oh, okay ...
The reason I believe that such a partnership would be moot was because I'm assuming that Dragons were created at the beginning of time. Yes, I know that Angels preceeded that, but, stay with me.
Since Dragons were here from the beginning, then anything from before that would probably not be applicable to THIS reality. Maybe it would, but that doesn't really make sense to me.
Now, since Dragons were here, then they'd know as much about this reality and how it worked as the angel.
-
Oh, okay ...
The reason I believe that such a partnership would be moot was because I'm assuming that Dragons were created at the beginning of time. Yes, I know that Angels preceeded that, but, stay with me.
Since Dragons were here from the beginning, then anything from before that would probably not be applicable to THIS reality. Maybe it would, but that doesn't really make sense to me.
Now, since Dragons were here, then they'd know as much about this reality and how it worked as the angel.
Ah, gotcha. Im more of there impression that the Dragons were more local to this given Earth and/or universe, whereas Angels (or at least archangels?) exist on a higher dimensional tier and so transcend the individual universes to some extent. Im putting Dragons more in the general of Mab or Hades. Id say the Mothers too but I have sneaking suspicions that there is still more to those two than we've yet been shown.
-
Ah, gotcha. Im more of there impression that the Dragons were more local to this given Earth and/or universe, whereas Angels (or at least archangels?) exist on a higher dimensional tier and so transcend the individual universes to some extent. Im putting Dragons more in the general of Mab or Hades. Id say the Mothers too but I have sneaking suspicions that there is still more to those two than we've yet been shown.
I could not agree more.
-
Makes me wonder if MS has the Grandmother mantle, and MW has the Big Bad Wolf mantle.
-
Makes me wonder if MS has the Grandmother mantle, and MW has the Big Bad Wolf mantle.
Nah, Im still a fan of consolidating all the Wolf myths into one giant Loup Garou/Fenrir mantle. Besides, if the Grandma in question is one of the Mothers, that elevates the crap out of Little Red and the Huntsman, not to mention a Wolf that could Eat a Mother.
But Ill chase the white rabbit: The "Red" would indicate the Summer side, so d guess a former Summer Lady. The Huntsman would likely need to be someone like Erlking or Vadderung or some other Wild Hunt figure. Then we'd be looking at an instance where a Mantle was devoured by another immortal but somehow recovered after-the-fact, which would be a hell of an interesting development.
-
Or, the huntsman was the Winter Knight. Hunting the Summer Lady would make sense.
-
Or, the huntsman was the Winter Knight. Hunting the Summer Lady would make sense.
But he /rescued/ the Lady (ie Little Red).
-
He hunted her first.
Kind of like if Harry has to find Sarissa in the future, huh?
-
He hunted her first.
Kind of like if Harry has to find Sarissa in the future, huh?
He did? Not in any version I can find, even the original Grimm or Perrault versions (summarized translations, admittedly). It was always the wolf that did the Hunting and the Huntsman/Woodcutter that saved LRRH by cutting her and grandma out of the wolf and then filling the wolf with stones.
-
Sorry, I was confusing the Woodsman from LRRH and Snow White.
Nevermind
-
Sorry, I was confusing the Woodsman from LRRH and Snow White.
Nevermind
Ahhh, I gotcha. Ya, that was definitely a less innocent Huntsman :P
-
And apparently the Bigfoots are just an offshoot hominid, but native to the Mortal World. White Court are Ageless and "Half-born" but not truly Immortal by the definition provided in CD.
Are the White Court even ageless? They could be, but I don't think we've seen any who are older than the oldest wizards. IIRC Lord Raith's portraits go back to 1700 or something & he's the oldest we know.
Even if they are truly ageless, they are definitely not 'immortal' in the CD sense, but I don't think they're even 'non-mortal' in the way Red/Black Court and Fae etc. are. I think they're more like Hexenwolves and Denarians (who are definitely ageless, and definitely still have a human soul) - with both a human soul and a non-human spirit coexisting.
IMO scions, pre-Choice changelings, werewolves (who are basically just a special class of minor talent), loup-garou, hexenwolves, White Court are all eligible for coins - anything with a human soul. But Red/Black Court, full Fae (humans with a Fae Mantle might be a different case - Molly as she is now probably could take a coin), trolls, etc. couldn't.
-
Are the White Court even ageless? They could be, but I don't think we've seen any who are older than the oldest wizards. IIRC Lord Raith's portraits go back to 1700 or something & he's the oldest we know.
WoJ places Papa Raith at "a couple thousand". Which is annoyingly non-specific, but enough to tell us that Wampires are probably unaging in the same way that a Denarian or Rampire/Ramire Infected would be.
-
IIRC ... Pappa Raith doesn't look any older than Thomas, when Harry meets him at the front door of Rraith manor.
-
WoJ places Papa Raith at "a couple thousand".
Ah, ok, hadn't seen that one.
-
IIRC ... Pappa Raith doesn't look any older than Thomas, when Harry meets him at the front door of Rraith manor.
In general, though, people who meet Thomas, LR, and Lara do usually recognize their kinship, but also recognize that Lara is the older sister, and that LR is the father. So it's not that they don't age at all, clearly they do, at least a little.
Which fits the idea that the WCourt are basically human beings with Something Else added. We know they have souls, because they can be soulgazed. Harry has soulgazed Thomas and Ramirez has soulgazed Lara. We know they are capable of genuine Love and that they have what amounts to mortal free will, or at least their free will is only partly compromised by their nature. We know from Mab that they are qualified to serve as Summer/Winter Knight. We know they can use magic, and when they do, it generates a tech bane.
So it's pretty clear that White Court Vampires are basically a kind of human.
-
In general, though, people who meet Thomas, LR, and Lara do usually recognize their kinship, but also recognize that Lara is the older sister, and that LR is the father. So it's not that they don't age at all, clearly they do, at least a little.
Which fits the idea that the WCourt are basically human beings with Something Else added. We know they have souls, because they can be soulgazed. Harry has soulgazed Thomas and Ramirez has soulgazed Lara. We know they are capable of genuine Love and that they have what amounts to mortal free will, or at least their free will is only partly compromised by their nature. We know from Mab that they are qualified to serve as Summer/Winter Knight. We know they can use magic, and when they do, it generates a tech bane.
So it's pretty clear that White Court Vampires are basically a kind of human.
Agreed on all, but can you point me to the source on that bit? I dont recall any specific instance of a Wampire causing tech-bane effects, though it makes sense.
-
So it's pretty clear that White Court Vampires are basically a kind of human.
Mortal, not human necessarily just because they can breed with us. (science is just now proving Homo Sapiens actually breed with a lot of other hominids early on btw) The Genoska wasn't human but could use a coin, something ascribed to those of mortal free will.
-
Mortal, not human necessarily just because they can breed with us. (science is just now proving Homo Sapiens actually breed with a lot of other hominids early on btw) The Genoska wasn't human but could use a coin, something ascribed to those of mortal free will.
Which I take to mean that the Genoska is a kind of human, like the White Court.
Don't read too much into the idea of H. sapiens breeding with other hominids, there's rather less there than meets the eye. Whether the Neandertals, the Denisovans, etc. should even be counted as other species is a matter of semantics, and our knowledge of the Denisovans is so scant that even declaring that they aren't H. sapiens is mostly a matter of terminology.
The entire hominid 'fossil tree' is so freaking scant that it's almost meaningless to say much about it. A lot of the elaborate specific classifications are built on very, very thin foundations of actual data. Some fossils that are classified as different species probably aren't, some that are called the same species probably aren't.
-
Agreed on all, but can you point me to the source on that bit? I dont recall any specific instance of a Wampire causing tech-bane effects, though it makes sense.
In Backup, Thomas screws up his cell phone momentarily whenever he throws a spell. (Yes, Thomas wields magic, though not at a high level. He wields some basic, useful spells. I would not be shocked at all, though, to learn that if he trained and practiced, he has Wizard-level potential. He is the son of Margaret McCoy, after all...)
-
Which I take to mean that the Genoska is a kind of human, like the White Court.
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.
-
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.
Did they really possess free will. The scene in Changes, where the Red King summoned all of them to him because Harry scratched out his eyes suggests otherwise.
-
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.
This description is true for half-turned Red Court Vampires, but not the greesy bat-creature they turn into once they Choose to Feed; at that point they have no Soul (by the Soulgaze litmus test) and thus no Free Will.
-
This description is true for half-turned Red Court Vampires, but not the greesy bat-creature they turn into once they Choose to Feed; at that point they have no Soul (by the Soulgaze litmus test) and thus no Free Will.
Define the ability to choose to resist the hunger vs blood slave then? What your saying there amounts to, they're more bat than human. Purely by what you said, Susan wouldn't have had anything left to choose from after one feeding. Maybe you got the 'in line with what's shown to the viewer from perspective', but is it really what's shown canonically? You want talk about soul gazes and people who do or don't have one, Harry avoids hades for fear of one, despite the many claims Mab would have no soul(certainly she is all Sidhe) but at the same time Harry as never met her eye's, and again has intentionally looked away when she challenged him to do so. The Reds and their hypno eyes more imply whatever they have is wolf to our deer, we get caught in the headlights. So it doesn't always get a cut and dry answer.
But, lets bring it back around to how the nobles of the court had to continue to fight the hunger not to devolve into mindless beings, because you can throw out counter points all day, if you can't address these specific discontinuities your not really addressing my issues here. That's not really an animal, that's certainly not set in stone behavior. fyi, the Whites prove you can become something else or something more and not stop being mortal. Why did the court have to be whipped out obliquely by Dresden even though the KotC sponsers had genuine beef with them? Free will issues.
Did they really possess free will. The scene in Changes, where the Red King summoned all of them to him because Harry scratched out his eyes suggests otherwise.
How so? Because he has a bigger will and a direct access to the core of their being? and yet his daughter plots to overthrow him... don't mistake a compulsion for a lack of will. You can do pretty much the same thing and worse to any human with the right connects.
-
Define the ability to choose to resist the hunger vs blood slave then? What your saying there amounts to, they're more bat than human. Purely by what you said, Susan wouldn't have had anything left to choose from after one feeding. Maybe you got the 'in line with what's shown to the viewer from perspective', but is it really what's shown canonically? You want talk about soul gazes and people who do or don't have one, Harry avoids hades for fear of one, despite the many claims Mab would have no soul(certainly she is all Sidhe) but at the same time Harry as never met her eye's, and again has intentionally looked away when she challenged him to do so. The Reds and their hypno eyes more imply whatever they have is wolf to our deer, we get caught in the headlights. So it doesn't always get a cut and dry answer.
Wildly different things. One is a mortal being "Pushed" to Sacrifice their Soul, the other is a former-mortal creature that has degraded as their nature dicated. I get that you see the Blood Slave Madness as big enough shift to require a Free Will Choice, but I dont think so at all; it's not a Change of nature, it's just surrendering to said Nature. It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.
But, lets bring it back around to how the nobles of the court had to continue to fight the hunger not to devolve into mindless beings, because you can throw out counter points all day, if you can't address these specific discontinuities your not really addressing my issues here. That's not really an animal, that's certainly not set in stone behavior. fyi, the Whites prove you can become something else or something more and not stop being mortal. Why did the court have to be whipped out obliquely by Dresden even though the KotC sponsers had genuine beef with them? Free will issues.How so? Because he has a bigger will and a direct access to the core of their being? and yet his daughter plots to overthrow him... don't mistake a compulsion for a lack of will. You can do pretty much the same thing and worse to any human with the right connects.
See above, it's not a fundamental Free Will Change for a monster that craves Blood to continue to crave Blood to the exclusion of everything else; there's nothing in the Rampire definition that requires them to be in full mental control of themselves. I dont see that as a Shift so much as the natural (arguably inevitable) conclusion of the Rampire transformation.
In general, I see Wampires as very similar to half-Ramps, while full Ramps have more in common with Blampires, based purely on the Souled half-something definition versus the fully transformed Ex-Mortal.
-
It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.
I'll get back to the rest of that post later... but that left me sputtering in shock. Mab's ready made built in to know she logically can't go too far without invoking Titania's doomsday device. If she were the scorpion... the scorpion didn't wait or anything really, it just did what it does. So Mab would have already just tipped the scales and got drug into oblivion if that was her nature. The thing that changed was the fox, it gave the scorpion an opening despite it's knowing better. So she can't just 'go too far' without a precise change somewhere in that balancing act of the connected courts. And the metaphor to the WC or RC is the consciousness and the demon which are also connected can't just change the dynamic of said balance without farther change, change in any creature implies choice. Reds already killed, if there were no farther changes then they'd all be as Susan, and never adapt into a more comfortable life with it. At the very least they keep what remains and must grip it tight to prevent the slow spiral into being just what they look like on the outside. Tangent over, I think lol.
Now where were we..
See above, it's not a fundamental Free Will Change for a monster that craves Blood to continue to crave Blood to the exclusion of everything else; there's nothing in the Rampire definition that requires them to be in full mental control of themselves. I dont see that as a Shift so much as the natural (arguably inevitable) conclusion of the Rampire transformation.
See above for part of that. But again, that would say the 'being' known as the Red King basically resisted what he really was for over 3k years. Resisting what you already are by our 'slow decay to natural state' theorem implies he made a conscious decision to do so for all that time.
Wamps let something in, Ramps become something in body and Blamps are replaced entirely is how it looks to me.
*that becomes more right to me thinking about it, Ramps are a transmogrification. Like Mortal magic they just become more and more that thing as time goes by and they fail to resist.... Makes me wonder if the 7 courts aren't based on breaking the seven laws ??? Mmmm.
-
How so? Because he has a bigger will and a direct access to the core of their being? and yet his daughter plots to overthrow him... don't mistake a compulsion for a lack of will. You can do pretty much the same thing and worse to any human with the right connects.
Well, exactly like that. The compulsion is relevant because it's built into their nature. Not having free will doesn't mean that you can't have desires and thoughts, it means the Red King can set the law and force the Ramps to act according to his will. Because he is their progenitor imo. They can't not obey. His daughter has to plot really carefully to overthrow him. The compulsion seems to come from the blood connection, meaning that the Rampires higher up in the family tree are automatically more powerful and can compel their "children". We've seen hints of this as far back as GP, where Bianca controls her household of freshly made Vampires.
The same as Molly not being able to act against Winter Law or a direct command from Mab.
Also consider Bob, he has no free will so he can't act against his nature. Doesn't mean he can't try to strike deals with Harry or not like a particular command. But he can't disobey a direct command from whoever possesses him atm.
-
Well, exactly like that. The compulsion is relevant because it's built into their nature
Looking at how Odin describes it, they are literally a part of the kings power broken down through his offspring. It's a thaumaturgical connection, nothing more. They literally felt his pain, not just his will.
The same as Molly not being able to act against Winter Law or a direct command from Mab.
*looks obliquely* now your just theorizing. On something disputed already btw(human or fae? no soul no choice?) we're still waiting on this one guy.
Also consider Bob, he has no free will so he can't act against his nature. Doesn't mean he can't try to strike deals with Harry or not like a particular command. But he can't disobey a direct command from whoever possesses him atm.
Bob's a full denizen of the mortal realm with his own mortal body? Extraneous details, not really sure what this is supposed to prove.
-
I'll get back to the rest of that post later... but that left me sputtering in shock. Mab's ready made built in to know she logically can't go too far without invoking Titania's doomsday device. If she were the scorpion... the scorpion didn't wait or anything really, it just did what it does. So Mab would have already just tipped the scales and got drug into oblivion if that was her nature. The thing that changed was the fox, it gave the scorpion an opening despite it's knowing better. So she can't just 'go too far' without a precise change somewhere in that balancing act of the connected courts.
And the metaphor to the WC or RC is the consciousness and the demon which are also connected can't just change the dynamic of said balance without farther change, change in any creature implies choice. Reds already killed, if there were no farther changes then they'd all be as Susan, and never adapt into a more comfortable life with it. At the very least they keep what remains and must grip it tight to prevent the slow spiral into being just what they look like on the outside. Tangent over, I think lol.
No, lets stick with this, because this is the actual crux of the topic you are on.
In the Case of Whites, they are "half-born" and that's all they are. In the case of Mab, oh my no she could, and Would, Absolutely murpder every single human being on the planet if she deemed it necessary to fulfill her duties. That is entirely within her Nature. What would require a Change on the order you are imagining would be, per the WOJ that started this whole issue, "She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind." She can absolutely remain a cold-hearted bitch that would slaughter millions, the only thing stopping her is that doing so would hamper the defense of the Gates by long-term attrition or by the disruption while the new Lady came up to speed; but if either of those two external forces were to go away and she thought it was worth it she could end the human race and sleep well that night (barring other/outside opposition of course).
Now where were we..See above for part of that. But again, that would say the 'being' known as the Red King basically resisted what he really was for over 3k years. Resisting what you already are by our 'slow decay to natural state' theorem implies he made a conscious decision to do so for all that time.
Wamps let something in, Ramps become something in body and Blamps are replaced entirely is how it looks to me.
There is a vast difference between Loosing your Mind and Gaining a Soul.
In the case of full Reds, they have been entirely transformed into a soulless creature, that basically just happens to use human beings as incubators; this isnt much different than the Black Court that are some sort of necromantically animated corpse. But their core Nature is that of a Predator, and that has not at all changed when one falls to being a Blood-slave. Had a Rampire attempted to go Vegan (somehow...?) or otherwise rejected their core nature, that might constitute a fundamental shift. But the core of a Rampire is just the predator, theirs nothing innate to Vampirism that says you have to be a /smart/ predator, which is the only difference between a normal controlled Rampire and a blood-slave.
The analogy my mind goes to is drug addiction (thank you Elementary binge): A Bloodslave is the equivalent of an Addict that has fully succumbed to their addiction and OD'd, whereas a normal Rampire is just an addict that is still trying to hang onto their Life (socially speaking) and hasnt yet hit Rock Bottom. Neither of those indicate the sort of fundamental /reversal/ required to actually overcome it.
Look at the other side of the line: Thomas actually exercised his Free Will for a while trying to entirely deny his Wampire Nature to the limits of physical survival. Lara has just built up an empire that makes Hunting Easier but will likely never even consider that she actually /shouldnt/ feed and even kill for any reason beyond the logistics involved. Meanwhile, per WOJ they have a sister locked in the attic that is "utterly bonkers" which I expect is a reasonable White Court equivalent to a Bloodslave.
*looks obliquely* now your just theorizing. On something disputed already btw(human or fae? no soul no choice?) we're still waiting on this one guy.
Have you read Cold Case? It's pretty directly shown there multiple times.
Bob's a full denizen of the mortal realm with his own mortal body? Extraneous details, not really sure what this is supposed to prove.
Im also not sure where this was going, but fwiw Bob is neither of those things.
-
*she can't just suddenly ignore her own logical nature that knows She'll get drug to oblivion> that's the point your missing in your reply. it doesn't matter if she wants to kill the fox, she knows the fox won't let her so she won't try. Original supposition was That she would consume everything by going to far. I'm supplying she'd have to change to ignore the current status quo.
-
*she can't just suddenly ignore her own logical nature that knows She'll get drug to oblivion
And if she thought the Gates would remain Defended (and whatever other Bargains are currently binding her would be taken care of), she'd not hesitate for a single second.
-
And if she thought the Gates would remain Defended (and whatever other Bargains are currently binding her would be taken care of), she'd not hesitate for a single second.
And that connects to the choice or the change how? this is why I hate getting off topic. it's not addressing the original issues and now it's not addressing my rebuttal either. It's driving home a point slightly to the left of mine.
If it's not readily apparent, I'm also getting confused...
it's just surrendering to said Nature. It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.
It was never stipulated in your original supposition that any such condition would take effect before she 'had an opportunity'. You said simply if she did, it would be in her nature. But, she has the troops to do so NOW so it's not in her nature to break the balance, which if she tried to overrun earth it would. Overrunning earth might be in her nature, but just doing it is without regard is not. Drinking blood might be in Reds nature, but giving into it entirely or resisting it to remain a conscious minded being can't both be status quo.
-
And that connects to the choice or the change how? this is why I hate getting off topic. it's not addressing the original issues and now it's not addressing my rebuttal either. It's driving home a point slightly to the left of mine.
If it's not readily apparent, I'm also getting confused...
OK. If that's the case Im sorry, I must be missing your point. What is your point?
-
OK. If that's the case Im sorry, I must be missing your point. What is your point?
Let you know when I find it.
-
Let you know when I find it.
;D
If it helps, what I /thought/ was your point was that the the devolution of a typical Red Court Vampire to a Blood Slave constitutes a fundamental enough shift in their Nature to require a Free Will level Choice to make it happen, and were using that as evidence that they still /had/ free will (and Souls?).
I think it spawned from the initial discussion of what qualifies for a Human (Human, Genoskwa, Wampire?) for the purposes of a Host, and you asserted that Reds were equally qualified as Whites by having Free Will and being native to the Mortal World.
Which I take to mean that the Genoska is a kind of human, like the White Court.
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.
-
;D
If it helps, what I /thought/ was your point was that the the devolution of a typical Red Court Vampire to a Blood Slave constitutes a fundamental enough shift in their Nature to require a Free Will level Choice to make it happen, and were using that as evidence that they still /had/ free will (and Souls?).
More that they weren't devoid of choice. They could choose to give in, or they could choose to fight it. the fighting it, if it really is a natural devolution, is a stark choice to make to me. Not everything on the mortal plain possesses a human soul, but that doesn't mean they have nothing. Tera being a relevant oddity, Did she not make choices and adapt at times? She choose to make the Alpha's yes? Granted I think she's totally a bad guy in FM, but that's just my crazy idea's lol.
I think it spawned from the initial discussion of what qualifies for a Human (Human, Genoskwa, Wampire?) for the purposes of a Host, and you asserted that Reds were equally qualified as Whites by having Free Will and being native to the Mortal World.
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.
-
More that they weren't devoid of choice. They could choose to give in, or they could choose to fight it. the fighting it, if it really is a natural devolution, is a stark choice to make to me.
I think it boils down to the idea that they only get that Choice the once, specifically at the point where they Kill; after that they are just dealing with the fallout and consequences of that Choice. Changling style, to my mind.
Relevant to the denarian topic, I think Susan could wield the Sword as a half-ramp but would not be able to after the change even setting aside the Rampire issues with articles of Faith....WAIT A MINUTE!
Would a Denarian Coin count as an Item of Faith against creatures with that Catch like Ramps and Blamps, like some sort of evil Holy Water?
Not everything on the mortal plain possesses a human soul, but that doesn't mean they have nothing. Tera being a relevant oddity, Did she not make choices and adapt at times? She choose to make the Alpha's yes? Granted I think she's totally a bad guy in FM, but that's just my crazy idea's lol.
This is where the Free Will conversations usually get bogged down, as it falls into the long-established philosophic pit of divergent definitions and/or levels of Free Will as opposed to Setting specific issues. So, take all the following as just the best DV fit Ive seen, but not anything like a settled answer (easier to find bigfoot riding a unicorn :P)
The distinction comes down to the idea of Philospohic Agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy)), as compared to the DV style Free Will. Mab and Bob and Tera and anything soulless can freely Act and interact and make day to day choices in response to their environment. But they will always act and respond according to the same script (ie Nature); they are on the Deterministic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system)side of the AI debate. Mab can plot and scheme, and can react quickly and out-think most things that exist, but she will always react the same way given the exact same history and circumstances. Mab is more rigid that some because of the additionally rigid nature of Winter, as opposed to Summer whose nature is to try new things and see what sticks rather than plot a glacier course (This is why I think Mother Summer retires but Mother Winter does not, fwiw).
The best example was to compare Mab to Lucifer. Both crazy powerful and entrusted with specific cosmic Purposes. Lucifer was given a Job and (presumably) a specifically designed personality to accomplish that Purpose. But he also had a Soul, thus Free Will and thus a (single, shitty) Choice: he could either stay On-Script, or else Fall and ever-after be able to exercise some amount of Free Will (since any Act of Free Will by an angel is by definition rebellion). Popular theology is that this was never part of The Plan, but Lucifer could and Did Choose the Left Hand path, and the Universe had to deal with the consequences. By comparison Mab physically Could Not choose to go Off-script in the first place.
-
The distinction comes down to the idea of Philospohic Agency, as compared to the DV style Free Will. Mab and Bob and Tera and anything soulless can freely Act and interact and make day to day choices in response to their environment. But they will always act and respond according to the same script (ie Nature); they are on the Deterministic side of the AI debate.
Ahhh but if it was part of natures script then why did GK add it to the list of should not normally happen events in TC? :)
Not sure I like the Lucy comparison, couldn't put my finger on why though. A lot of these things are valid but, i'd challenge 'what's in their nature' on anything as uniquely monstrous as the Reds. Harry see's them full sight and says each one is unique to their own particular brand of madness. and since they are not natural and every one is unique under the sight(which i'd bet regular animals are not) they can't have a script in nature. Not from nature to be scripted. So even assuming they can't 'change their script' each script there is unique.
-
Ahhh but if it was part of natures script then why did GK add it to the list of should not normally happen events in TC? :)
You mean his reference to a Nemfected Lady? That falls into the category of /Outside/ influences (well, external, but in that case Outside as well) changing them. That initial WOJ establishing the Free Will bit with Mab also mentioned that non-free-willed creatures (has to be a better term for that...) can be Changed by chronic exposure to Mortals, but thats more a matter of accumulated Change
Aurora and Maeve didnt Choose to Change their natures, they had a Change forced on them. Same with Bob, he said that Kemmler Twisted his Nature, but he couldnt Choose to make that change of his own initiative. For that matter, strong arguments have been made that he could not Choose to Forget on his own, even though he can be ordered to.
Not sure I like the Lucy comparison, couldn't put my finger on why though.
The only reason I use it is that Lucifer is the best mirror I can think of, having the same cosmically mandated Purpose like Mab, but with a Soul, which in turn is supposed to the be what grants mortal's their Free Will Superpower.
A lot of these things are valid but, i'd challenge 'what's in their nature' on anything as uniquely monstrous as the Reds. Harry see's them full sight and says each one is unique to their own particular brand of madness. and since they are not natural and every one is unique under the sight(which i'd bet regular animals are not) they can't have a script in nature. Not from nature to be scripted. So even assuming they can't 'change their script' each script there is unique.
I think you are conflating a creature's "Nature" with a creatures place in the "Natural Order"? None of the creatures in question are "natural" in the sense of evolution or even being native to the Mortal World (fae being a unique exception per WOJ), but that doesnt mean they dont have a personal Nature (animal or otherwise).
Side Note: Regarding the "uniqueness" of the Red Court vamps, I see now the passage you're talking about. Id always taken that line to just mean that each "flabby, greesy bat-creature" had a lot of physical variation, but within the same basic framework. Especially in light of Arrianna's Sight description in the same passage as just being a particularity flabby and greasy specimen of the normal true form of a Rampire. But I could be wrong on that. Regardless Im not sure that variation points to mortality or Free will, just a less structured/symmetrical species; id expect similar variation from a group of Demons or other NN denizens with less rigid taxonomy.
-
You mean his reference to a Nemfected Lady?
No, his statement about college students being taught enough real magic to transform into a pack of wolves. Tera's actions.
Would a Denarian Coin count as an Item of Faith against creatures with that Catch like Ramps and Blamps, like some sort of evil Holy Water?
to someone like Nic or Deidre? Probably. Almost certainly since it's based entirely on perspective faith.
Wow, I just got a Yeats reference there, from our convo. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. It's Murph and Nic in SG.
-
I dunno if it would for Nico and the Nickelheads tbh.
To them the Coins are probably more like tools /weapons then anything.
Now if one of Nick's Squires got a hold of one, then I could see it.
-
And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? ??? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
Red Vampires are manifestly not human. But your comparisons are irrelevant to the question of humanity. Red Vampires cannot be soulgazed. They do not have free will in the human sense. They leave some kind of corpse behind, but so do Sidhe, and they aren't human. As far as we know, Red Vampires don't produce a tech bane when they use magic, unless they intend it.
All the indications point to the Forest People and White Court being humans. Nothing points to humanity for the Red Court.
-
Red Vampires are manifestly not human. But your comparisons are irrelevant to the question of humanity. Red Vampires cannot be soulgazed. They do not have free will in the human sense. They leave some kind of corpse behind, but so do Sidhe, and they aren't human. As far as we know, Red Vampires don't produce a tech bane when they use magic, unless they intend it.
All the indications point to the Forest People and White Court being humans. Nothing points to humanity for the Red Court.
nothing points to a forest person being a 'human'. Or WCV and Wizards being pure human for that matter.
And Sidhe don't live here, but still have a body, still have some soul in there make up iirc. After all, a lifetime in the NN shoulda turned the queens to goo by woj on eating fae food, but it didn't did it ???
And as Q's verey good reasoning points out, it's unlikely but still unprovable Ramps don't have choices.
-
Define the ability to choose to resist the hunger vs blood slave then? What your saying there amounts to, they're more bat than human. Purely by what you said, Susan wouldn't have had anything left to choose from after one feeding.
She didn't. Once she killed for blood, Susan Ramirez was finished, a Red Court monster with her memories and a mind superficially similar to Susan's was in the process of taking her place. If Harry had waited more than a few moments to kill her, the thing that took her place would have been just as much his and Maggie's enemy as the Red King.
Maybe you got the 'in line with what's shown to the viewer from perspective', but is it really what's shown canonically? You want talk about soul gazes and people who do or don't have one, Harry avoids hades for fear of one, despite the many claims Mab would have no soul(certainly she is all Sidhe) but at the same time Harry as never met her eye's, and again has intentionally looked away when she challenged him to do so. The Reds and their hypno eyes more imply whatever they have is wolf to our deer, we get caught in the headlights. So it doesn't always get a cut and dry answer.
Things can pass through eye-contact in the DV besides soulgazes. But soulgazes either are or not.
The White Court 'vampires' are fundamentally different than the Black and Red Courts. When you're converted into one of them, you, the original human you, dies. What takes your place is something else, albeit made out of your physical and mental remains.
You don't get turned into a White Court 'vampire' at all, you're born that way by ordinary sexual reproduction. They're not even strictly vampires at all, in that sense, just predators.
-
Look at the other side of the line: Thomas actually exercised his Free Will for a while trying to entirely deny his Wampire Nature to the limits of physical survival. Lara has just built up an empire that makes Hunting Easier but will likely never even consider that she actually /shouldnt/ feed and even kill for any reason beyond the logistics involved.
Actually, I think it's just possible that she might would, under the right circumstances (though those circumstance would be pretty improbable at her age). There are hints, every now and then, that Lara's conscience is not quite entirely dead yet.
My mind also keeps going back to the scar on her palm, the one Thomas said was caused by picking up the wrong wedding ring. I'm sure that wasn't mentioned for no reason. The scar itself might be a plot point as some stage, say if Harry has to tell the real Lara from a fake one. But I also wonder, I just wonder, if that wedding ring might not have been hers.
-
But I also wonder, I just wonder, if that wedding ring might not have been hers
Dam ;'(
-
No, his statement about college students being taught enough real magic to transform into a pack of wolves. Tera's actions.
Oh, that. That's...a really good point, actually. Makes me fear a Nemfected Wolf-shifter, now. But at least that would go a long way to explaining why Fitz is an orphan.
to someone like Nic or Deidre? Probably. Almost certainly since it's based entirely on perspective faith.
Lets poke that idea for a second: Is it? I agree they're Beievers enough to make it glow like a person with a cross, but that always seemed like a person acting holding a focus object rather than anything innate. By contrast, Harry was once able to get a 55 gallon drum of Holy Water blessed, and it retains the "faith" catch-defeating properties for some extended amount of time (couldn't say if it outlasted the sunrise). And even closer, the Swords have burned vamps when not being held by a Knight.
Bob described angels as fundamentally existing on the Faith spectrum of "spirit" to the point where he cannot perceive them at all. So while a person can /channel/ faith energy through a cross, etc. Angel might well be /made/ of said energy, so it would be present all the time in the coin and independant of any mortal holding it. Theoretically.
Wow, I just got a Yeats reference there, from our convo. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. It's Murph and Nic in SG.
Nice!
-
Bob described angels as fundamentally existing on the Faith spectrum of "spirit" to the point where he cannot perceive them at all. So while a person can /channel/ faith energy through a cross, etc. Angel might well be /made/ of said energy, so it would be present all the time in the coin and independent of any mortal holding it. Theoretically.
Is angel power and faith the same thing though? I thought the swords had faith effects for the same reason Michaels very armor repels one of the twins in GP, it's believed in either by the bearer or on a whole like the shroud. AND has angelic grace to level the playing field? Thing I keep thinking of is what Thorned Namsheil says to Harry about wielding soulfire without faith to base it on. Soul power and faith power aren't the same then? Just intrinsically tied to one another.(Think Dresden technically has faith in magic though but... idk?)
-
Is angel power and faith the same thing though? I thought the swords had faith effects for the same reason Michaels very armor repels one of the twins in GP, it's believed in either by the bearer or on a whole like the shroud. AND has angelic grace to level the playing field? Thing I keep thinking of is what Thorned Namsheil says to Harry about wielding soulfire without faith to base it on. Soul power and faith power aren't the same then? Just intrinsically tied to one another.(Think Dresden technically has faith in magic though but... idk?)
Well, I looked at the original quote from DM and bob wasnt able to perceive the Shroud, not the fallen a I thought, so that takes a lot of the wind out of the idea.
Soulfire and Faith energy are certainly separate things. Soulfire-backed spells seemed to get around some of the Rampire durability in similar ways, but I dont know if that's due to "faith" so much as the solidified Will aspect of Soulfire on display with Mama Winter.
Minor context nitpick: It was Shagnasty who mentioned using Soulfire without Faith, Namsiel was just pissed that an "arrogant little monkey" presumed to use it at all.
-
I believe that the protection of Michael at the Masquerade would have happened if he'd been in Armor or naked. That was an example of Michael's faith protecting him, literally.
-
I believe that the protection of Michael at the Masquerade would have happened if he'd been in Armor or naked. That was an example of Michael's faith protecting him, literally.
Can't agree with that, it's never happened before or after, just the one time he was in full crusader garb. Which generally includes a cross on the cloth, but not on the mail plate itself. I'd find it nearly impossible to believe that's not an article of faith for him with the history behind it.
Minor context nitpick: It was Shagnasty who mentioned using Soulfire without Faith, Namsiel was just pissed that an "arrogant little monkey" presumed to use it at all.
Oops, your right of course. I had th right book, but the only connecters to the scene in my mind was, 1 vs an angelic entity 2 he'd already gotten his ass kicked before the now standardized reversal. Shagnasty it was though.
-
Can't agree with that, it's never happened before or after, just the one time he was in full crusader garb. Which generally includes a cross on the cloth, but not on the mail plate itself. I'd find it nearly impossible to believe that's not an article of faith for him with the history behind it.
But we know that the crosses wont have any impact on a vampire if there isn't faith behind it. That's why Harry's Pentacle works, but a cross wouldn't for him.
It's the faith behind it that is the power ... the protection. Not the implement itself. That's why Michael's faith is his protection, not the armor.
-
Mr. Ferro with a Coin... Gotta happen... Just has to... If not a Coin than Nemesis infection.
(http://342a.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/arthas-cinematic-deathwing-picture-by-lichking-photobucket-349712.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3f/5a/94/3f5a94e27c9eb91a58b3be59722275ff.jpg)
-
But we know that the crosses wont have any impact on a vampire if there isn't faith behind it. That's why Harry's Pentacle works, but a cross wouldn't for him.
It's the faith behind it that is the power ... the protection. Not the implement itself. That's why Michael's faith is his protection, not the armor.
His faith in the armor in this case though. Notice it doesn't happen any other time, literally ever. Armor or not, except the one time right after they address the fact he's wearing garb from a crusader? That seems a more direct intention to showcase it from the Doyalist perspective. Heck it could have been her admitted belief that's what he appeared to be. His skins not bio-electrically faith charged that we've ever seen though. That be like the one in a million time spider-man can suddenly lift a bus when canonically he can only lift a van.
-
His faith in the armor in this case though. Notice it doesn't happen any other time, literally ever. Armor or not, except the one time right after they address the fact he's wearing garb from a crusader? That seems a more direct intention to showcase it from the Doyalist perspective. Heck it could have been her admitted belief that's what he appeared to be. His skins not bio-electrically faith charged that we've ever seen though. That be like the one in a million time spider-man can suddenly lift a bus when canonically he can only lift a van.
Then again, we've never seen Michael ever touched by anything else that might react the same way either.