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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LordDresden2 on June 19, 2017, 04:13:29 AM
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I think you are underestimating how much Sarissa is part of the conspiracy to kill Maeve and make Sarissa the Winter Lady. The whole book is written essentially under one context and Harry (and us) take that to be the truth. But go back to events and remember that she is Mab's daughter.
Let's roll it back to the very start of the book. Sarissa never says, "Mom" to Mab. When she talks about her relationship with Mab, she doesn't outright lie but does not tell the truth. Then she shows up at Molly's place. I want to remind you at this point in the book Harry thinks she is a young, Mortal woman. Under 30, maybe under 25. The Redcap would know that she is Mab's daughter. He likely pre-dates Mab. So, do you think he is really going to KILL Mab's daughter? How would that go for him? More likely she let her self be captured by him and sent to Harry. I suspect all her hiding is not her fear of Harry, but instead fear that he will recognize her as Maeve's twin. The next event is the "team" crossing the circle at the top of the island. There is no way to force her into the circle and make her stay. She went into the circle willingly. The plan was to have Maeve killed and pop the Winter Lady's Mantle into Sarissa. Mab knew it AND so did Sarissa. Look at her argument with Maeve. She clearly knew that Maeve was nFected. She compared Maeve to Lea and how Mab could cure Maeve.
We tend to assume that the people working against Harry and the good guys are Nemesis-infected or Nemesis-influenced, and obviously some of them, like Maeve, are so. But it's not clear that Aurora, for example, was suffering from exactly the same thing Maeve was. There was no indication that Aurora could actually lie by commission, for ex.
Likewise, there are people working for the other side who almost surely are doing so of their own free wills (or as close as the supernaturals have in some cases). They may or may not be allies, but they probably do work together sometimes (and maybe against each other at other times). I strongly doubt Cowl is Nemfected, for ex.
Regarding Sarissa, see nambkas' comments above. Sarissa looks to be far more than what Harrry took her to be in Cold Days. But just as a speculation, suppose Sarissa is actually Circle, or working for/with them (presumably even unknown to her mother).
That might seem improbable, but it might also explain a few things. For ex, Maeve hated being Winter Lady, apparently. She apparently also hated Sarissa, though that may have been jealousy over her relationship with Mab, and/or her personal freedom.
But how did Maeve end up as Winter Lady in the first place? Why Maeve and not Sarissa? From Mab's POV, Sarissa looks like the better candidate. More self-disciplined, more serious. I would think that Mab would have preferred Sarissa to be the Winter Lady. Yet somehow Maeve ended up with that 'honor'.
But if Sarissa was with the bad guys, even back then, of her own free will, it might make sense to let Maeve have the title and the power, since that way Sarissa retains her freedom of action and her semi-immortality. She can always become Winter Lady later, if need be something can be arranged to happen to Maeve...
If Maeve was somehow forced into taking the Winter Lady status, that might also have contributed to her hated for her sister.
Just speculating...
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If Maeve was somehow forced into taking the Winter Lady status, that might also have contributed to her hated for her sister.
I need to go back and reread, but that was the impression I got, whether true or not, Maeve felt Mab favored Sarissa. Thus she Maeve was forced to live the cold life of the Winter Lady, while Sarissa went off to do as she pleased.. What was worse, Mab would go off and do mother/daughter things with Sarissa, but not her..
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I need to go back and reread, but that was the impression I got, whether true or not, Maeve felt Mab favored Sarissa. Thus she Maeve was forced to live the cold life of the Winter Lady, while Sarissa went off to do as she pleased.. What was worse, Mab would go off and do mother/daughter things with Sarissa, but not her..
But we don't know how that came about. My point is that we can already be reasonably sure Sarissa is good at being at least passively deceptive, because the image of herself she presented to Harry in Cold Days was highly misleading (see nambkas' quote above). I'm simply wondering if that might extend to being one of the bad guys. If that were the case, Maeve's problem might even have been set up in the way of a distraction to keep their mom occupied.
I would be interested to see if there was ever much interaction in the past between Sarissa and Aurora.
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I view things differently. I think that Sarissa was not infected with Nemesis. She was either following Mab's orders not to tell Harry she is Mab's daughter or she wanted Harry to see her for herself and not Mab's daughter.The Fae or those related to the Fae don't like giving out info for free. Mab also did not tell Harry who Sarissa really was. The Red Cap I think was Nemesis infected or at least loyal to Maeve rather than Mab. I think he thought Maeve was going to replace/kill Mab eventually so he is being loyal to the new boss. I think Nemesis can sort of lie mostly dormant in the host and do some subtle influencing without the host being really aware like what happened to Aurora. Nemesis can when necessary take over and make the host a sort of puppet. The host being possessed and can fight Nemesis but would likely loose. Remember what happened to Cat Sith and the Leasidhe. Cat Sith fought and lost to Nemesis and the Leasidhe fought and got Mab's help to defeat it or at least contain it.
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Look at Sarissa's own words on why she is in Mab's debt:
"I ... have a form of congenital dementia," she said. "I watched what it did to my older sister and ..." She shuddered. "Doctors can't help me.
Mab can.
Assuming she's not lying, just masking the truth in Fae-fashion, she can hardly talk about Nemesis. As far as we know, Nemesis is not congenital and neither can it be dormant for about 200 years. What she has inherited is her sidhe-half, being a changeling. She talks about it as a form of dementia. That doesn't sound like she wanted it. But neither has she chosen to become human. My theory is that Mab didn't let her. She's certainly capable of manipulating her own daughter into a deal that forced her to play along.
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Look at Sarissa's own words on why she is in Mab's debt:
Assuming she's not lying, just masking the truth in Fae-fashion, she can hardly talk about Nemesis. As far as we know, Nemesis is not congenital and neither can it be dormant for about 200 years. What she has inherited is her sidhe-half, being a changeling. She talks about it as a form of dementia. That doesn't sound like she wanted it. But neither has she chosen to become human. My theory is that Mab didn't let her. She's certainly capable of manipulating her own daughter into a deal that forced her to play along.
I think that Mab should have told Harry the full truth about the Enemy for starters. But that is for another topic.
We know that the mantle will travel to the most suitable host when something happens to the host for lack of a better word, it resides in. Mab may not have prepared either of her daughters as well as she might have, something happened to the Lady and poor Maeve was the nearest suitable candidate and got stuck with it. For the first hundred or so years she was fine with it, did her job, but there might have been aspects of it she didn't understand or know. Not unlike Molly didn't know, the bit about boyfriends and sex being forbidden... That would create resentment, especially when she observed her sister enjoying herself. I can see that resentment then turn into rebellion on Maeve's part making her vulnerable to becoming infected.. I think there is evidence to underscore this, look at Maeve's court in Summer Knight.. She wasn't infected at that time, but she was very twisted emotionally and her court reflected that.
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I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.
With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).
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I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.
With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).
I don't think Mab was ever all together honest with any of her Ladies.. She took care to prepare Molly but omitted what she was preparing her for, and certainly didn't say a word about forced virginity... I doubt she mentioned that to her daughters either... I think that might be a reason why she was hoping for Sarissa to replace Maeve, she had seen what had happened and had an understanding at least of what being Lady meant.
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I view things differently. I think that Sarissa was not infected with Nemesis.
I agree completely. My speculation is that she might be one of the bad guys on her own, rather than because of Nemesis. Part of the Circle, or something on that order.
She was either following Mab's orders not to tell Harry she is Mab's daughter or she wanted Harry to see her for herself and not Mab's daughter.The Fae or those related to the Fae don't like giving out info for free. Mab also did not tell Harry who Sarissa really was. The Red Cap I think was Nemesis infected or at least loyal to Maeve rather than Mab. I think he thought Maeve was going to replace/kill Mab eventually so he is being loyal to the new boss. I think Nemesis can sort of lie mostly dormant in the host and do some subtle influencing without the host being really aware like what happened to Aurora. Nemesis can when necessary take over and make the host a sort of puppet. The host being possessed and can fight Nemesis but would likely loose. Remember what happened to Cat Sith and the Leasidhe. Cat Sith fought and lost to Nemesis and the Leasidhe fought and got Mab's help to defeat it or at least contain it.
Yeah, but it's pretty clear that Sarissa is not what she presented herself to Harry as, whatever else she might be. Part of my point is that it's easy to see Nemesis everywhere, when in fact it's likely that most of Harry's hidden foes are not Nemfected, though they may be working with it.
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I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.
With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).
If the Redcap was sane, in what passes for the 'right mind' of a Winter Fae, it's hard for me to picture her being in much danger. As nambkas noted above, unless the Redcap is freaking insane, it's going to be reluctant to harm Mab's daughter.
Now, I suppose there's an outside chance that the Redcap didn't know about the blood connection, but that strikes me as improbable.
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Yeah, but it's pretty clear that Sarissa is not what she presented herself to Harry as, whatever else she might be. Part of my point is that it's easy to see Nemesis everywhere, when in fact it's likely that most of Harry's hidden foes are not Nemfected, though they may be working with it.
I agree, we tend to see Nemesis under every rock, but I doubt that it is.. I also think the Enemy is a lot more complicated. I think part of Mab's success and some of her potential failure is she is playing a ten dimensional chess game and doesn't trust anyone enough to help her with any of it and suspects everyone of trying to undercut her.. She isn't far wrong, yet it could be her downfall.
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I agree, we tend to see Nemesis under every rock, but I doubt that it is.
Exactly. It's obviously an important piece of the puzzle, but I don't for a moment believe that Nemesis is the only important piece. I doubt if it's necessarily even the mastermind behind the overall situation (if there is just one such mind). If Harry and Eb are right, and the Black Council is a group, it's quite possible that there are multiple plots in motion on the other side, which sometimes work together and sometimes trip each other up.
IMHO, there are several puzzle-pieces that are probably comparably important, including but not limited to:
Nemesis
Kemmler
Cowl
The Circle (to the degree that is different than Cowl)\
Sarissa
Merlin (the original)
Margaret
The Athame
The Blackstaff (the staff itself, I mean) and how the Council ended up in possession of it
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Exactly. It's obviously an important piece of the puzzle, but I don't for a moment believe that Nemesis is the only important piece. I doubt if it's necessarily even the mastermind behind the overall situation (if there is just one such mind). If Harry and Eb are right, and the Black Council is a group, it's quite possible that there are multiple plots in motion on the other side, which sometimes work together and sometimes trip each other up.
IMHO, there are several puzzle-pieces that are probably comparably important, including but not limited to:
Nemesis
Kemmler
Cowl
The Circle (to the degree that is different than Cowl)\
Sarissa
Merlin (the original)
Margaret
The Athame
The Blackstaff (the staff itself, I mean) and how the Council ended up in possession of it
I think it is even more complicated, because I don't think it is all that clear who or what is on each side. In my opinion I think you have to add a layer of gray areas or what Harry likes to call "cat's paws." Take the Red Court Vamps, yeah bad actors but were they any worse than the White Court Vamps or the Jade Court Vamps? Granted, we no nothing so far about the last. What finally brought about the downfall of the Red Court, wasn't so much that they were evil, but that they were being used by the Enemy towards a goal.. Now one could argue that they miscalculated, Bianca's actions triggers a series of events which led to a premature war against the White Council, etc, etc, which finally led to Harry's reverse family curse that wiped out the Reds.. But was it a miscalculation? The Fomor have now stepped in to fill the vacuum left by the Red Court, in some ways they seem to be more powerful and much more clever than the Red Court ever was.. So what if the down fall of the Red Court was no more than a "sacrifice fly" for the Enemy designed to advance the on base runners, even scoring a run..
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I think it is even more complicated, because I don't think it is all that clear who or what is on each side. In my opinion I think you have to add a layer of gray areas or what Harry likes to call "cat's paws." Take the Red Court Vamps, yeah bad actors but were they any worse than the White Court Vamps or the Jade Court Vamps?
It depends on your metric. It's kind of like asking whether Marcone is better or worse than his less competent predecessors in the criminal world. If you measure by the level of direct violence, especially against kids and vulnerable people, he's better. OTOH, he makes crime pay well, and the drugs and vice and other trouble he traffics in makes life in general worse, from that POV he's worse than his predecessors because he's more efficient. If you're a street cop you're less likely to lose a fellow officer to violence with Marcone running stuff. If you're a drug enforcement man, it's far worse and you're more overloaded than before.
The vampires are like that. The White Court is easier to battle than the Red. The Reds are more physically and immediately dangerous, and they can convert you into one of them. The Reds can reproduce far faster, one Red can become hundreds quickly. WCVs need just as long as we do to increase their numbers, and are relatively much easier to kill. Lara in a nasty mood might tear through a SWAT team, but she won't make them into WCVs, and if they keep their head they may take her down.
The Black Court is worse on every metric, except that their weaknesses are so well known.
What finally brought about the downfall of the Red Court, wasn't so much that they were evil, but that they were being used by the Enemy towards a goal.. Now one could argue that they miscalculated, Bianca's actions triggers a series of events which led to a premature war against the White Council, etc, etc, which finally led to Harry's reverse family curse that wiped out the Reds..
It wasn't Bianca's actions. She was a pawn on the board, even for her own people. Bianca wasn't the sharpest tool in the box.
But was it a miscalculation? The Fomor have now stepped in to fill the vacuum left by the Red Court, in some ways they seem to be more powerful and much more clever than the Red Court ever was..
Now that is a very good question, actually. I don't down that Somebody was using the Red Court as a pawn on the board. Some of them might even have realized it, but I think the Red King was so caught up in his own wonderfulness that he never suspected. I'm not at all sure who that Someone was, though.
I'm also not sure that things worked out just exactly as that Somebody intended. Whoever it was may have intended to destroy the Court. But the chain of events that led to Changes is so contingent that it's hard to imagine it being planned out in detail. It requires Maggie, who stems from that ill-advised sexual indulgence back in Death Masks. But that requires Harry's unbreakable shield, the magic rope, them being trapped there under those circumstances, etc. There are about 194,348 ways that situation could have played out differently: no Maggie.
I simply don't believe that every detail of everything that's happening is planned out years ahead of time by the villain. Not even Mab can do that. Instead, I think the villain(s) are really really good at improvising as they go along, they have a plan, yes, and they have a lot of foresight and contingencies worked out, but they still have to wait and see like everybody else. There are just too many ways things could go sour for it all to be One Big Plan.
For ex, imagine if back in Summer Knight, when he escaped Aurora's quicksand trap, instead of ending in the tree, Harry had slammed head-first into the trunk...and was instantly killed. It could easily have worked out that way.
Suppose on Demonreach, Karrin's bullet simply blasted through Maeve's body non-lethally, leaving her wounded and helpless but alive. The whole subsequent sequence of events changes. Or suppose Karrin's gun jammed. Etc.
The enemy is powerful, knowledgeable, and obviously superhuman in some ways. They have access to broad sources of information, but I don't believe that they can plan every detail ahead of time.
So what if the down fall of the Red Court was no more than a "sacrifice fly" for the Enemy designed to advance the on base runners, even scoring a run..
I think it may have been more or less that. Whether they planned the Fomor, or just figured that the vacuum would be filled by 'someone' and they'd play it as it lay is a good question.
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It depends on your metric. It's kind of like asking whether Marcone is better or worse than his less competent predecessors in the criminal world. If you measure by the level of direct violence, especially against kids and vulnerable people, he's better. OTOH, he makes crime pay well, and the drugs and vice and other trouble he traffics in makes life in general worse, from that POV he's worse than his predecessors because he's more efficient. If you're a street cop you're less likely to lose a fellow officer to violence with Marcone running stuff. If you're a drug enforcement man, it's far worse and you're more overloaded than before.
The vampires are like that. The White Court is easier to battle than the Red. The Reds are more physically and immediately dangerous, and they can convert you into one of them. The Reds can reproduce far faster, one Red can become hundreds quickly. WCVs need just as long as we do to increase their numbers, and are relatively much easier to kill. Lara in a nasty mood might tear through a SWAT team, but she won't make them into WCVs, and if they keep their head they may take her down.
The Black Court is worse on every metric, except that their weaknesses are so well known.
It wasn't Bianca's actions. She was a pawn on the board, even for her own people. Bianca wasn't the sharpest tool in the box.
Now that is a very good question, actually. I don't down that Somebody was using the Red Court as a pawn on the board. Some of them might even have realized it, but I think the Red King was so caught up in his own wonderfulness that he never suspected. I'm not at all sure who that Someone was, though.
I'm also not sure that things worked out just exactly as that Somebody intended. Whoever it was may have intended to destroy the Court. But the chain of events that led to Changes is so contingent that it's hard to imagine it being planned out in detail. It requires Maggie, who stems from that ill-advised sexual indulgence back in Death Masks. But that requires Harry's unbreakable shield, the magic rope, them being trapped there under those circumstances, etc. There are about 194,348 ways that situation could have played out differently: no Maggie.
I simply don't believe that every detail of everything that's happening is planned out years ahead of time by the villain. Not even Mab can do that. Instead, I think the villain(s) are really really good at improvising as they go along, they have a plan, yes, and they have a lot of foresight and contingencies worked out, but they still have to wait and see like everybody else. There are just too many ways things could go sour for it all to be One Big Plan.
For ex, imagine if back in Summer Knight, when he escaped Aurora's quicksand trap, instead of ending in the tree, Harry had slammed head-first into the trunk...and was instantly killed. It could easily have worked out that way.
Suppose on Demonreach, Karrin's bullet simply blasted through Maeve's body non-lethally, leaving her wounded and helpless but alive. The whole subsequent sequence of events changes. Or suppose Karrin's gun jammed. Etc.
The enemy is powerful, knowledgeable, and obviously superhuman in some ways. They have access to broad sources of information, but I don't believe that they can plan every detail ahead of time.
I think it may have been more or less that. Whether they planned the Fomor, or just figured that the vacuum would be filled by 'someone' and they'd play it as it lay is a good question.
I think the enemy has been consistent. They are getting major factions to fight each other to weaken everyone to let the Outsiders come in and win. They tried to get the WC Vamps and the White Council to fight each other and framed Morgan. I doubt the enemy cared so much if the RC or the WC won, just so long as they were busy fighting each other and not paying attention to other matters. I don't know if the Formor are just more useful idiots or are true partners to the Outsiders.
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I think the enemy has been consistent. They are getting major factions to fight each other to weaken everyone to let the Outsiders come in and win. They tried to get the WC Vamps and the White Council to fight each other and framed Morgan. I doubt the enemy cared so much if the RC or the WC won, just so long as they were busy fighting each other and not paying attention to other matters. I don't know if the Formor are just more useful idiots or are true partners to the Outsiders.
Either way, the Fomor are part of the picture..
The enemy is powerful, knowledgeable, and obviously superhuman in some ways. They have access to broad sources of information, but I don't believe that they can plan every detail ahead of time.
I agree, but still they do have a battle plan, but sometimes the chess pieces get overturned when someone bumps the board, say a certain starborn wizard named Harry Dresden.. Only unlike ordinary chess, the pieces are not as easily picked up and put back on their designated square.. War, using the Red Court against the White Council may have been part of the over all battle plan, but due in great part to Harry, it was set into motion before everything was ready and triggered other unplanned for actions..
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Or, maybe things like the war between the reds and the WC was Mab's plan to determine who is strongest, and most able to take over at the gate?
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Or, maybe things like the war between the reds and the WC was Mab's plan to determine who is strongest, and most able to take over at the gate?
I can't picture that. The Reds are totally unsuitable for it, personality-wise. The Wizards don't have the numbers or the mindset.
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Or, maybe things like the war between the reds and the WC was Mab's plan to determine who is strongest, and most able to take over at the gate?
No, I really doubt that.
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I can't picture that. The Reds are totally unsuitable for it, personality-wise. The Wizards don't have the numbers or the mindset.
One wizard took out the entire Red Court. Numbers can be deceptive.
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One wizard took out the entire Red Court. Numbers can be deceptive.
Yeah, but that was a very special case, where a family line curse designed to get revenge on Eb's family backfired when Harry turned the tables. Also several things had to happen before he could pull it off. 1] All Red Court Vamps are related. 2] Susan had to turn at the right moment to become the youngest member of the RCV family. 3] Harry had to be willing to cut her throat at the right moment to set the curse in motion.. So while I agree that numbers can be deceptive, I also think we have to be careful not to compare apples to oranges..
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Mira,
I totally agree that circumstances were special and need to be taken into account. However, my point is that just because there aren't all that many Wizards, as compared to the general population, as we've seen, numbers aren't everything. For all we know, the same curse MIGHT be able to be used against the outsiders. They might all be related. We really don't know.
All that being said, Harry can shape and change reality itself, with the proper preparation and motivation. That's whats so cool about being a wizard.
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All that being said, Harry can shape and change reality itself, with the proper preparation and motivation. That's whats so cool about being a wizard.
Minor nitpick, but worth keeping in mind: MAGIC can shape and change reality itself, but that was in the context of beings more like Mab; there are still hard caps on what a even mortal like Harry is capable of, and how much energy it takes.
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One wizard took out the entire Red Court. Numbers can be deceptive.
But usually they tell the truth, fairly brutally. 'The battle is not always to the strong, and the race is not always to the swift, but that is the way to bet.'
One Wizard took out the entire Red Court because conditions for that were precisely just right, Harry trapped the Court in their own death trap.
Same deal with the Black Court. The 30 combined Elders of the old Black Court were potent enough to be a serious threat to Mab, but as JB pointed out, a 30-to-1 battle is a very different thing than a one million-to-30 battle. A whole different sort of thing.
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My point is that if the WC knew about the battle at the outer gates, and were given a chance to prepare for the WC to take over said guardianship, they could totally do it.
Heck, if nothing else, they might just be able to come up with a way to seal the gates.
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Numbers can change.
The big advantage the Red Court would have as guardians of the gate is that they could very, very quickly replace any losses by kidnapping a bunch of humans and transforming them.
The White Council, if they were to take over the Outer Gates, would probably have to do something more along the lines of what Winter does -- with recruitment and breeding programs. Or perhaps if they just brought mortal support teams out to the Gates... children born there would all have enough environmental exposure to magic to be born wizards?
(Wild Speculation Warning: Is Harry's documented extreme magical strength the result of the amount of time his mother spent in the Nevernever while pregnant with him?)
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Numbers can change.
The big advantage the Red Court would have as guardians of the gate is that they could very, very quickly replace any losses by kidnapping a bunch of humans and transforming them.
The White Council, if they were to take over the Outer Gates, would probably have to do something more along the lines of what Winter does -- with recruitment and breeding programs. Or perhaps if they just brought mortal support teams out to the Gates... children born there would all have enough environmental exposure to magic to be born wizards?
(Wild Speculation Warning: Is Harry's documented extreme magical strength the result of the amount of time his mother spent in the Nevernever while pregnant with him?)
The implication is that most of his magical potential is genetically inherited from Margaret and Eb, it's the McCoy magic. His status as an Outsiderbane is a special case to do with circumstances and timing, though.
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Yeah, but that was a very special case, where a family line curse designed to get revenge on Eb's family backfired when Harry turned the tables. Also several things had to happen before he could pull it off. 1] All Red Court Vamps are related. 2] Susan had to turn at the right moment to become the youngest member of the RCV family. 3] Harry had to be willing to cut her throat at the right moment to set the curse in motion.. So while I agree that numbers can be deceptive, I also think we have to be careful not to compare apples to oranges..
Exactly. Let's also not forget the magical energy generated from hundreds of human sacrifices in a very specific place (a major confluence of Ley lines). The blood-line curse was dark, dark black magic. It was so bad, Odin showed real anger mentioning it and decided to get involved himself.
I also think it's a bit unfair to say one wizard killed the RC. Harry was not alone. He was the one who cut Susan's throat in the end. But he never planned the whole thing and he certainly couldn't have been there without the help of a lot of other people. Among them a god, a major league Winter Sidhe, all three Swords of the Cross, Bob, 11 powerful wizards, the Kenku, a Foo dog, a White Court vamp, Susan herself, Martin ... and last but not least internal division in the Red Court.
If any one person could be credited with pulling it off, it would be Martin. He might have been the one who planned it. At least the possibility of it happening. But I doubt he could have been sure it would happen exactly that way. That would be beyond stupid, because so much could have gone wrong.
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Exactly. Let's also not forget the magical energy generated from hundreds of human sacrifices in a very specific place (a major confluence of Ley lines). The blood-line curse was dark, dark black magic. It was so bad, Odin showed real anger mentioning it and decided to get involved himself.
I also think it's a bit unfair to say one wizard killed the RC. Harry was not alone. He was the one who cut Susan's throat in the end. But he never planned the whole thing and he certainly couldn't have been there without the help of a lot of other people. Among them a god, a major league Winter Sidhe, all three Swords of the Cross, Bob, 11 powerful wizards, the Kenku, a Foo dog, a White Court vamp, Susan herself, Martin ... and last but not least internal division in the Red Court.
If any one person could be credited with pulling it off, it would be Martin. He might have been the one who planned it. At least the possibility of it happening. But I doubt he could have been sure it would happen exactly that way. That would be beyond stupid, because so much could have gone wrong.
Also he couldn't have done it, if the Red King hadn't decided to take revenge on hisfamily by way of a generational family curse. There are many other ways to take out Eb and family, but the Red King chose that way. Then everything had to be aligned exactly right to pull it off, remember it was some fast desperate thinking at the end for Harry to win, he was losing and little Maggie was about to get her throat cut.. It was the realization that Martin was a double agent, and the fact that he could message Susan quickly enough that it was him behind her daughter being in danger that pissed her off enough to lose control and kill him, then and only then could he stop it and indeed by doing it took out the whole Court.
Mira,
I totally agree that circumstances were special and need to be taken into account. However, my point is that just because there aren't all that many Wizards, as compared to the general population, as we've seen, numbers aren't everything. For all we know, the same curse MIGHT be able to be used against the outsiders. They might all be related. We really don't know.
All that being said, Harry can shape and change reality itself, with the proper preparation and motivation. That's whats so cool about being a wizard.
See above, Harry was motivated to stop his child and by extension himself being murdered, true, but he wasn't prepared or had a plan on how to stop it.. He didn't plan with with Susan before hand that he'd get her pissed off enough at Martin that she'd turn and rip his throat out and then allow him to cut her throat, setting off a chain reaction. While yeah, any wizard could have pulled it off, but in order to pull it off, all the ducks had to be exactly in a row... For the Reds it was the perfect storm of the Red King's own making..
So while yeah, it is an example of one wizard stopping a whole clan/tribe/group, it doesn't follow that it could be used against the Outsiders.. For starters we don't even know if they are related by blood as the Reds were. Then how do Outsiders reproduce? Then how do you find the youngest to sacrifice in order to set off the chain reaction? So while they are both fruit it becomes an apples to oranges example of what one wizard could do.
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Also he couldn't have done it, if the Red King hadn't decided to take revenge on hisfamily by way of a generational family curse. There are many other ways to take out Eb and family, but the Red King chose that way. Then everything had to be aligned exactly right to pull it off, remember it was some fast desperate thinking at the end for Harry to win, he was losing and little Maggie was about to get her throat cut.. It was the realization that Martin was a double agent, and the fact that he could message Susan quickly enough that it was him behind her daughter being in danger that pissed her off enough to lose control and kill him, then and only then could he stop it and indeed by doing it took out the whole Court.
See above, Harry was motivated to stop his child and by extension himself being murdered, true, but he wasn't prepared or had a plan on how to stop it.. He didn't plan with with Susan before hand that he'd get her pissed off enough at Martin that she'd turn and rip his throat out and then allow him to cut her throat, setting off a chain reaction. While yeah, any wizard could have pulled it off, but in order to pull it off, all the ducks had to be exactly in a row... For the Reds it was the perfect storm of the Red King's own making..
So while yeah, it is an example of one wizard stopping a whole clan/tribe/group, it doesn't follow that it could be used against the Outsiders.. For starters we don't even know if they are related by blood as the Reds were. Then how do Outsiders reproduce? Then how do you find the youngest to sacrifice in order to set off the chain reaction? So while they are both fruit it becomes an apples to oranges example of what one wizard could do.
All true.
However, because of his status as a wizard, he was able to turn the tables, AGAIN, on his enemy and use their very own weapon against them.
What if he, and say 1000 other wizards, all bent their minds to the task of defending the gates?
Yes, circumstances are different, but with each case so far the circumstances were different from every other one.
What I'm saying is that They can Change the shape of reality itself.
Minor nitpick, but worth keeping in mind: MAGIC can shape and change reality itself, but that was in the context of beings more like Mab; there are still hard caps on what a even mortal like Harry is capable of, and how much energy it takes.
I disagree. Is it the hammer and saw that build a house, or the Carpenter.
Magic can reshape reality, just like a hammer and a saw can reshape a piece of wood. But won't without the skill and will of a carpenter.
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I disagree. Is it the hammer and saw that build a house, or the Carpenter.
Magic can reshape reality, just like a hammer and a saw can reshape a piece of wood. But won't without the skill and will of a carpenter.
Huh? All Im saying is that the statement of "Magic can reshape reality so Rules or Limits never actually apply to Harry" is a logical fallacy. It's akin to the famous statement "Give me a big enough Level and I'll move the world" because No, you wont, even if you managed to find a lever (and a fulcrum) of size and material that would make it physically possible. Or to saying that Because Physics are a Thing, Our Hero can catch Bullets and crush Diamonds with their bare hands. No. The Quantitative side still matters.
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Oh ... sorry. I didn't mean to imply that the rules don't apply to Harry, just that Magic users CAN reshape reality.
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Oh ... sorry. I didn't mean to imply that the rules don't apply to Harry, just that Magic users CAN reshape reality.
Can they really? Or is it mostly illusion that they are shaping? This may be a leap from my sleep deprived mind, but I think this is why mind magic is mostly forbidden under the Laws of Magic.. The mind is altered so the the perception of the world is altered, but that isn't reality.
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Can they really? Or is it mostly illusion that they are shaping? This may be a leap from my sleep deprived mind, but I think this is why mind magic is mostly forbidden under the Laws of Magic.. The mind is altered so the the perception of the world is altered, but that isn't reality.
No, it's actual physical reality that gets warped, independent of any given perception. To your point though, in a pure NN demesne like what that ghost in GP or powerful NN creatures seem to have, I expect the line to get far more blurry, though.
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No, it's actual physical reality that gets warped, independent of any given perception. To your point though, in a pure NN demesne like what that ghost in GP or powerful NN creatures seem to have, I expect the line to get far more blurry, though.
Actually, I've wondered if 'rewrite reality' is as broad as we've sometimes assumed. That is, I'm not sure that magic can be used to rewrite reality into anything the mage wants, I suspect there may be rules and limits as to what changes can be made, even by the major players.
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When you consider that Magic (at least according to Harry) are the very powers of creation, it makes sense that those powers can be used to modify things, or to put it another way, to reshape reality.
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When you consider that Magic (at least according to Harry) are the very powers of creation, it makes sense that those powers can be used to modify things, or to put it another way, to reshape reality.
The impression I get from the DF is that 'magic' is actually more than one thing, albeit the various things are related. More than one power source, more than one set of rules, more than one set of limits. There may be common underlying foundations, but I think Harry's understanding of magic, esp. in the early books, was oversimplified.
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The impression I get from the DF is that 'magic' is actually more than one thing, albeit the various things are related. More than one power source, more than one set of rules, more than one set of limits. There may be common underlying foundations, but I think Harry's understanding of magic, esp. in the early books, was oversimplified.
I agree, it was (and probably still is) oversimplified.
However, it still stands to reason that it can reshape reality. I kind of think that's why it's there in the first place.
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The impression I get from the DF is that 'magic' is actually more than one thing, albeit the various things are related. More than one power source, more than one set of rules, more than one set of limits. There may be common underlying foundations, but I think Harry's understanding of magic, esp. in the early books, was oversimplified.
However, it still stands to reason that it can reshape reality. I kind of think that's why it's there in the first place.
Both those statements could be applied equally to "Magic" as to "Science."
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Both those statements could be applied equally to "Magic" as to "Science."
Your point being? *raises eyebrows*
Sufficiently advanced science ... and all that.
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Your point being? *raises eyebrows*
Sufficiently advanced science ... and all that.
That it's not actually Oversimplified at all; rather it's simply that the story and/or narrator have not bothered to get too bogged down in the weeds of how Magic works, most of the time, in the face of good Storytelling. I mean, I respect the crap out of Tom Clancy, but sometimes he'd wax on and on about random details of military procedure or geopolitical history, to the point where you'd forget what the actual scene was supposed to be.
To say it was Oversimplified in the beginning implies to me a retcon, the idea that thing worked differently in the earlier books and the rest was added on after-the-fact. But just about everything that we've been talking about here is stuff that Harry mentioned to one degree or another in the first few books (other than stuff like Mantles and the Gates that were specifically saved for the latter Arc).
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That it's not actually Oversimplified at all; rather it's simply that the story and/or narrator have not bothered to get too bogged down in the weeds of how Magic works, most of the time, in the face of good Storytelling. I mean, I respect the crap out of Tom Clancy, but sometimes he'd wax on and on about random details of military procedure or geopolitical history, to the point where you'd forget what the actual scene was supposed to be.
To say it was Oversimplified in the beginning implies to me a retcon, the idea that thing worked differently in the earlier books and the rest was added on after-the-fact. But just about everything that we've been talking about here is stuff that Harry mentioned to one degree or another in the first few books (other than stuff like Mantles and the Gates that were specifically saved for the latter Arc).
But remember that we're getting it all from first-person narration, and Harry is specifically not infallible, nor are his sources, necessarily.
For ex, Harry tells Karrin early on that the Fallen can't possess you without your permission. That's what the Council teaches, and Harry believes it.
Several books later, though, it turns out that this isn't quite true, just usually. Michael tells Harry that yes, one of the Thirty can take your body against your will, under certain circumstances, I think Michael said that drug use could weaken you enough for it to happen, or participation in certain occult rituals or activities could open you up to involuntary possession, there may have been some other things.
So Harry wasn't wrong in what he told Karrin way back when, just not entirely right. He had an oversimplified view, and maybe so did the Council.
Another example: throughout the early books, Harry thought the Outer Gates were a metaphor, not a real gate. Now he 'knows' that they are real gates, physical, material objects...except of course that he's got it oversimplified still:
2015 Grid Daily interview
The Gate seems like something that, if it didn’t start with a consciousness, would develop it over time. Is that the case?
It probably is, but the consciousness of an inanimate object like that is mostly like that of a mountain. “I AM HERE.” And it’s just increasingly aware of its here-ness. The Gate actually exists very differently than what Harry saw, but that’s how Harry has to interpret it because it’s far out in the Nevernever. Your mind has to put things into terms it can understand or you go squirrely. Harry’s got a very good mind for reducing things to simple ideas. Which most of the Senior Council would say with a roll of their eyes.
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But remember that we're getting it all from first-person narration, and Harry is specifically not infallible, nor are his sources, necessarily.
For ex, Harry tells Karrin early on that the Fallen can't possess you without your permission. That's what the Council teaches, and Harry believes it.
Several books later, though, it turns out that this isn't quite true, just usually. Michael tells Harry that yes, one of the Thirty can take your body against your will, under certain circumstances, I think Michael said that drug use could weaken you enough for it to happen, or participation in certain occult rituals or activities could open you up to involuntary possession, there may have been some other things.
So Harry wasn't wrong in what he told Karrin way back when, just not entirely right. He had an oversimplified view, and maybe so did the Council.
Another example: throughout the early books, Harry thought the Outer Gates were a metaphor, not a real gate. Now he 'knows' that they are real gates, physical, material objects...except of course that he's got it oversimplified still:
Again, Incomplete explanation doesnt equal Over simplification. An Oversimplification is something that has been reduced to the point that it is No Longer accurate, not just incomplete but actually False. Fallen still do require Permission, every step of the way; said permission is just not not necessarily as explicit or conscious as you first thought. The Outer Gates were never referred to or Implied to be metaphoric until the moment in CD where were found out they were not; the previous mentions absolutely implied that the term referred to a passage letting Outsiders in and as being something the Gatekeeper guards against, he just didnt expect to see a single Giant monolithic structure (which is entirely reasonable given the use of a plural term); and even that still isnt the whole truth of it, there still might be more Plurality that Harry was able to notice.
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Again, Incomplete explanation doesnt equal Over simplification. An Oversimplification is something that has been reduced to the point that it is No Longer accurate, not just incomplete but actually False. Fallen still do require Permission, every step of the way; said permission is just not not necessarily as explicit or conscious as you first thought. The Outer Gates were never referred to or Implied to be metaphoric until the moment in CD where were found out they were not; the previous mentions absolutely implied that the term referred to a passage letting Outsiders in and as being something the Gatekeeper guards against, he just didnt expect to see a single Giant monolithic structure (which is entirely reasonable given the use of a plural term); and even that still isnt the whole truth of it, there still might be more Plurality that Harry was able to notice.
Over simplification about the Fallen is a danger. While yes, they cannot dominate you without your permission, as we've seen with Lasciel, especially when she came to Harry as Sheila, they are very good at deception and seduction.. When one is either or both deceived and seduced by whatever permission can be given before the poor host knows what happened to him or her.
I also agree that more will be revealed about the Gates, and it remains on a need to know basis for a reason..
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That it's not actually Oversimplified at all; rather it's simply that the story and/or narrator have not bothered to get too bogged down in the weeds of how Magic works, most of the time, in the face of good Storytelling. I mean, I respect the crap out of Tom Clancy, but sometimes he'd wax on and on about random details of military procedure or geopolitical history, to the point where you'd forget what the actual scene was supposed to be.
To say it was Oversimplified in the beginning implies to me a retcon, the idea that thing worked differently in the earlier books and the rest was added on after-the-fact. But just about everything that we've been talking about here is stuff that Harry mentioned to one degree or another in the first few books (other than stuff like Mantles and the Gates that were specifically saved for the latter Arc).
I'm not suggesting oversimplification. I'm saying that magic CAN alter reality. I thought you were saying that so could Science, and I was giving you the old adage about Sufficiently advanced science/technology appears to be magic.