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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: RedRobe on June 08, 2017, 12:47:51 PM

Title: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 08, 2017, 12:47:51 PM
My group has agreed to try the DFRPG, but only really has experience with d20 systems. I had planned to run a d20 Modern game, but they were more interested in a completely different system for an urban fantasy game. I want to keep things simple on my end, so I thought about converting a d20 Modern module to Dresden to have something going on in the background for them to interact with. Has anyone had any experience with converting d20 modules to DFRPG or Fate in general? Some things I have to consider:

1) Power Level. The module assumes 1st level characters unaware of the supernatural, so I was thinking the PCs would start at Feet in the Water. One player has expressed interest in playing a werewolf, so I thought he could take some of the basic required were-powers and build up as they hit major milestones. Story-wise it may be that they'll all just be familiar wih their own powers and lore, but have only heard stories of other creatures and supernatural abilities.
2) D&D races and creatures. I will try to stick to Dresdenverse creatures when possible, but there are several I will have to build, such as kobolds, bugbears, giant spiders, an oni (ogre mage) and a demon or two (eventually).

I'm sure I'll think of more, but this is a good start. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice!
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 08, 2017, 01:58:09 PM
I hate to be a doom-sayer (And others might have had better experiences), but Im not sure it can be done, at least not all that directly.  You could probably cannibalize a d20 urban fantasy mod for the plot portions (the story, characters, mystery, etc), but the two systems arent very comparable as a fundamental level.  D20 is, first and foremost, a hard-rules dice system where RP is secondary (and optional, honestly). By contrast Fate and the DFRPG are fundamentally a narrative system (even moreso than some popular narrative systems like White Wolf/Vampire/Scion systems) where the story itself defines the mechanical capabilities of the characters, and where level-style progression isnt strictly a thing. 

So I guess the question is: What are you looking to get out of the pre-written module vs What are you willing to do from scratch.  I wouldnt count on anything relating to d20 rules to be at all transferable, at least in any but the most abstract flavor ways. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 08, 2017, 02:35:40 PM
I'm not that great at on-the-fly GMing unless I have some stuff prepared. Since this will be my first attempt at running a new system, I figure having a module as a guide will help. As long as I get the feel of the creatures, they don't have to be a feature-by-feature recreation. I like the way the Fate Freeport Companion handles creature conversion for a D&D style game, and thought something similar could be done using Dresden.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 08, 2017, 03:31:40 PM
I'm not that great at on-the-fly GMing unless I have some stuff prepared. Since this will be my first attempt at running a new system, I figure having a module as a guide will help. As long as I get the feel of the creatures, they don't have to be a feature-by-feature recreation. I like the way the Fate Freeport Companion handles creature conversion for a D&D style game, and thought something similar could be done using Dresden.
I feel you, that's why I usually fail as a DM.  Any particular objection to starting with one of the pre-written DFRPG adventures? Then you dont have to worry about conversion rules or clashing philosophies or untested mechanics. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 08, 2017, 04:08:05 PM
I have glanced at Night Fears and Neutral Grounds, but didn't care for either. Are there more than those two?
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 08, 2017, 06:04:20 PM
I think it's a cool idea. 

I'm not at my computer but would be willing to help.  I will give more details when I have time.   For now:

What adventure is it?   I might own it

Sticking to Dresden factions is a good idea.  Replacing the main enemy (for instance goblins) with a Dresden faction (hobgoblins or red court vampires) would be easiest.  You may have to tweak the plot somewhat to fit the Dresden world.   You don't want (or need) a perfect conversion.

Beyond that, most npc creatures/monsters can be made from scratch.  I don't recommend player character races (like elves and dwarves) but any player who wants to have that flavour could be changeling. 

Since you are starting from scratch, you can build it any way you want.  The module should be your framework and the rest you can steal from Our World.

Maybe you can give a brief synopsis and we can help your u put things together.  Monsters, traps, etc....

It sounds fun.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 08, 2017, 09:11:42 PM
I'm on my way to game night (different group) so I can't go into great detail just now, but I will be using the adventures in the back of the Urban Arcana setting book. The first one called Fast Food Fight Club deals with a gang of kobolds invading a fast food restaurant. Basically the PCs are the only ones equipped, mentally and physically, to stop the attack.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 09, 2017, 02:02:01 AM
I don't have that adventure, but I might be able to look it up.  In the mean-time:

1:  It is imperative that this adventure take place at a Burger King

2:
(click to show/hide)

Any suggestions welcome.

3.  There is no 3.  I need to look at the adventure first.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 09, 2017, 04:04:59 AM
The premise is that a group of kobolds hold an after hours fight club for clan/gang dominance. One crew works at the restaurant and the other group comes in to settle a score while the PCs happen to be there. Thanks for the write-up! I was researching mythological kobolds and there is a trap-making miner type that this would work for!
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 09, 2017, 12:48:19 PM
If you are setting this in Dresden then it's unlikely kobolds will openly be running a fast food joint - or even fighting where regular mortals can see them. 

I'd recommend a few options:

1.  Give Kobolds "Human Guise".  This way they can run the restaurant and look like regular people until they start fighting.  Then they lose their human looks.

2.  One group chases another group through a 'Way' in the Nevernever and it opens in Burger King where a fight ensues. 

3.  Two groups are looking for something at the Burger King (a door, or an item or a person) and end up fighting over it.

- Use aspects like 'Flickering lights' or 'darkness'.  Kobolds can see in the dark and it will make it easy for you to compel the PCs.  It also gives witnesses a reason to write off the weirdness.  "I could of sworn they were little lizard men...but it WAS really dark."

- It would be cool if your city was controlled by two mafia dragons.   And the two groups of kobolds were rival gangs.

For whatever reason that reminds me of the opening fight scene in Romeo and Juliette.  Maybe there are two star-crossed kobold lovers playing out their ill-fated story in the background of your game...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 09, 2017, 01:18:36 PM
For whatever reason that reminds me of the opening fight scene in Romeo and Juliette.  Maybe there are two star-crossed kobold lovers playing out their ill-fated story in the background of your game...
You just gave me a mental image of young DiCaprio as a love-struck lizard-man, and I will never be able to repay you...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 09, 2017, 01:25:22 PM
In d20 Urban Arcana, there is an effect produced by "Shadow" that obscures mundane mortals' perception of the supernatural. The adventure incorporates that to allow for the kobolds to be out in the open, albeit under heavy disguises. Its also late at night. Harry, in the novels, has mentioned several times that non-clued-in mortals will selectively forget or doubt their perception because the supernatural "isn't real." Would you suppose this psychological effect could account for the kobolds being in the open, or is the use of an effect like Shadow stretching Butcher's intent?
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 09, 2017, 01:41:39 PM
You just gave me a mental image of young DiCaprio as a love-struck lizard-man, and I will never be able to repay you...

Thank-you!

In d20 Urban Arcana, there is an effect produced by "Shadow" that obscures mundane mortals' perception of the supernatural. The adventure incorporates that to allow for the kobolds to be out in the open, albeit under heavy disguises. Its also late at night. Harry, in the novels, has mentioned several times that non-clued-in mortals will selectively forget or doubt their perception because the supernatural "isn't real." Would you suppose this psychological effect could account for the kobolds being in the open, or is the use of an effect like Shadow stretching Butcher's intent?

As a personal thing, I hate the idea of a 'shroud', 'veil', 'mist' or whatever other authors use to cover up the Supernatural.  What I like is Butcher's explanation of how people trick themselves into disbelieving what is right front of them.  The Rational Mind cannot comprehend the Supernatural and therefore writes it off as other, mundane, things.  But only to a certain extent - which is why you have 'clued-in' mortals.  A 'Shadow' implies regular mortals can't possibly see the Supernatural for what it is - which isn't true.

That said, if the scene is sufficiently chaotic and dark, there shouldn't be any problems.  Kobolds could easily be mistaken for a gang of pre-teen hooligans!  Besides, aspects like 'darkness', 'shadows', 'blinding lights', 'loud noises'  can be used for great effect.  Allowing you to compel the players to miss targets, get lost or turned around, separated from allies, or accidentally target the wrong people.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 09, 2017, 01:53:32 PM
In d20 Urban Arcana, there is an effect produced by "Shadow" that obscures mundane mortals' perception of the supernatural. The adventure incorporates that to allow for the kobolds to be out in the open, albeit under heavy disguises. Its also late at night. Harry, in the novels, has mentioned several times that non-clued-in mortals will selectively forget or doubt their perception because the supernatural "isn't real." Would you suppose this psychological effect could account for the kobolds being in the open, or is the use of an effect like Shadow stretching Butcher's intent?
As a personal thing, I hate the idea of a 'shroud', 'veil', 'mist' or whatever other authors use to cover up the Supernatural.  What I like is Butcher's explanation of how people trick themselves into disbelieving what is right front of them.  The Rational Mind cannot comprehend the Supernatural and therefore writes it off as other, mundane, things.  But only to a certain extent - which is why you have 'clued-in' mortals.  A 'Shadow' implies regular mortals can't possibly see the Supernatural for what it is - which isn't true.

That said, if the scene is sufficiently chaotic and dark, there shouldn't be any problems.  Kobolds could easily be mistaken for a gang of pre-teen hooligans!  Besides, aspects like 'darkness', 'shadows', 'blinding lights', 'loud noises'  can be used for great effect.  Allowing you to compel the players to miss targets, get lost or turned around, separated from allies, or accidentally target the wrong people.
Agreed; I dont really mind the Mist/Fog mechanic, but I dont think it's how things are supposed to work in the DV, which is more applied rationalization after-the-fact than an actual magical obfuscation.

Another possibility that could work in this instance is an ongoing disguise spell anchored to the building's threshold/wards.  Especially given the kobolds craftiness and natural penchant for bunker fortifications. 


As far as catches go: 

-For an easy/mundane weapon style one, Bludgeoning damage makes sense. 
-For a more traditional one, Sunlight might fit their cave-dwelling roots, especially if you play up the modern hacker "basement dweller" idea.  You could even tweak the "fast-food restaurant" to be more of a night-owl internet cafe, which among other things gives you the excuse for darker theme-lighting rather than the over-bright fast-food fluorescents. 
-To play up the Dragon connection along with their natural burglary with a more mystical Catch, perhaps they are weak against things that have been stolen from them? The idea being that if you can take away their weapon or successfully burgle them, you've dealt a blow to their possession/horde-based Power. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 09, 2017, 02:09:04 PM
Another possibility that could work in this instance is an ongoing disguise spell anchored to the building's threshold/wards.  Especially given the kobolds craftiness and natural penchant for bunker fortifications. 

That's cool.  I was thinking a ward might fry electronics but probably not if it's dragon magic since that isn't mortal magic.  Just a veil that gets applied to all lizard-types when they walk into the building.  Then you don't have to give them 'human guise' as a power (although, you could, if you thought it fit).

As far as catches go: 

-For an easy/mundane weapon style one, Bludgeoning damage makes sense. 
-For a more traditional one, Sunlight might fit their cave-dwelling roots, especially if you play up the modern hacker "basement dweller" idea.  You could even tweak the "fast-food restaurant" to be more of a night-owl internet cafe, which among other things gives you the excuse for darker theme-lighting rather than the over-bright fast-food fluorescents. 
-To play up the Dragon connection along with their natural burglary with a more mystical Catch, perhaps they are weak against things that have been stolen from them? The idea being that if you can take away their weapon or successfully burgle them, you've dealt a blow to their possession/horde-based Power.

Sunlight is cool and I never thought of that.  D20 kobolds get 'daylight sensitivity' so it plays well into the concept and I didn't really know how to add that into their stat-block (other than make it an aspect - which I will...editing...)

The burglary Catch is such a neat idea that I think it's worth adding in there.  If you put both Catches in, you're probably looking at a +2 or +3 catch.  Which means you can add a few powers to their stat blocks.  Speed or recovery might make sense.  Claws make sense too but I didn't give them Fists as a skill.  They could probably use Weapons to use their claws anyways - but that bends the rules slightly.  You could give them another stunt even.

An internet Cafe works too...Maybe it houses a secure server that the rival gang want to destroy/steal/hack....

Edit (and a slight digression from the main topic):
Now, I feel like Kobolds need scholarship if we are going with the computer nerd angle. (as weird as that sounds)  But it just seems like such a fun thing.  How many stunts would you need to cover all angles of computer use under burglary?

- breaking into a computer is already burglary, I think
- Hacking stunt lets you do computer 'scholarship' roles with Burglary....
-writing programs/viruses/firewalls etc...would all be covered under scholarship?  Or would that be Craftsmanship.  You know, I think it fits better under Craftsmanship, which they already have.  What are your thoughts?  'Computer Use' is a single trapping of scholarship.  1 stunt could make Computer Use a Craftsmanship Trapping.  Which means their stunt to create 'viruses' would be based on Craftsmanship and not burglary(or scholarship) and would put it at +5.  I like that.

Quote
Computer Use
Scholarship
Assuming that you aren’t the sort of person to,
say, cause technology to short out when you get
near it, the Scholarship skill includes the ability
to use and operate complex computerized or
electronic systems. This doesn’t really include
any competence at hacking, per se—Burglary
is still used to actually defeat security measures
and systems. However, Scholarship should
modify (page 214) Burglary whenever computers
are involved.

Quote
You can use Craftsmanship to build something—provided
you have a decent understanding
of how to build it, as well as plenty of
needed tools, materials, and time. The less you
have of any of these things, the higher the difficulty
to get it done. Craftsmanship is primarily
used with declarations; see the guidelines for
building things on page 320.


Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 09, 2017, 03:20:48 PM
Edit (and a slight digression from the main topic):
Now, I feel like Kobolds need scholarship if we are going with the computer nerd angle. (as weird as that sounds)  But it just seems like such a fun thing.  How many stunts would you need to cover all angles of computer use under burglary?

- breaking into a computer is already burglary, I think
- Hacking stunt lets you do computer 'scholarship' roles with Burglary....
-writing programs/viruses/firewalls etc...would all be covered under scholarship?  Or would that be Craftsmanship.  You know, I think it fits better under Craftsmanship, which they already have.  What are your thoughts?  'Computer Use' is a single trapping of scholarship.  1 stunt could make Computer Use a Craftsmanship Trapping.  Which means their stunt to create 'viruses' would be based on Craftsmanship and not burglary(or scholarship) and would put it at +5.  I like that.
Hard to say, the line between them always seemed a little blurry.  I guess Id say that if your talking about the abstract science of Computers or electricity it might be scholarship, as opposed to a more active goal-oriented craft.  On the other hand, Id be fine letting a skilled smith be knowledgeable at chemical metallurgy without needing a separate skill.  Given that their craft is so high, I think it's reasonable to let it also cover the intellectual/scholoarship  aspects o the related field. 

As far as tasks, on of the more common ones would probably be the old Everything is Online (TvTropes Warning) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingIsOnline) and let them hack keypads and ATMs and alarm systems and whatnot, even if they'd not normally be online and/or vulnerable.

Another might be targeted Hexes.  Combine the basic Hex idea with more specific control (because non-human) and knowledge of modern systems to allow much more specific, targeted, and/or possibly temporary Hexes.  Like they could hex a security camera to malfunction for just a second without being destroyed.  Maybe you can hex/corrupt targeted computer files rather than blowing up the whole machine.  Or make the compute fail without damaging the hard drive and the Valuables contained within.

If you really want to take them into the realm of technopaths, you could expand the Virtual Lair idea to give them powers that can interact with Virtual things as if they were more tangible (rather than adhering to the science of it). 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 09, 2017, 06:03:53 PM
Maybe give them mana static.  But totally controlled?   Based on craftsmanship. 

I guess it's up to RedRobe to decide how his kobolds will be.  But I'm liking this idea.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 09, 2017, 06:12:39 PM


Another possibility that could work in this instance is an ongoing disguise spell anchored to the building's threshold/wards.  Especially given the kobolds craftiness and natural penchant for bunker fortifications. 
I like the idea of a ward that disguises them as human teenagers as they enter for their shift. In the adventure background, the restaurant is owned/run by a dwarf who is trying to help Shadowkind find jobs. So maybe the owner is an enterprising practitioner who used his ties to a svartalf to ward his restaurants so he could hire monsters trying to stay on the straight and narrow. All non-humans who enter are glamored to look human so they can eat and work peacefully. At some point during the gang intrusion it gets overloaded and fails, and chaos ensues.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: g33k on June 09, 2017, 07:11:12 PM
I don't know the Urban Arcana supplement, but I infer from this thread that it has a built-in setting (or at least specific tropes/memes), and what you REALLY want is to use the DFRPG ruleset to run those UA pieces (& sundry other bits of the vast PF repertoire), rather than the DresdenVerse itself...

Is that a fair assessment?
 
If so... this may not be your best fit, actually.  DFRPG has been heavily tweaked away from the "Fate Core" ruleset, to specific DresdenVerse elements.  I might go with a more-homogenous blend of Fate Core + Fate Freeport + Urban Arcana, and use elements of DFRPG without trying to use the entire ruleset+setting...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 09, 2017, 07:41:48 PM
I don't know the Urban Arcana supplement, but I infer from this thread that it has a built-in setting (or at least specific tropes/memes), and what you REALLY want is to use the DFRPG ruleset to run those UA pieces (& sundry other bits of the vast PF repertoire), rather than the DresdenVerse itself...

Is that a fair assessment?
 
If so... this may not be your best fit, actually.  DFRPG has been heavily tweaked away from the "Fate Core" ruleset, to specific DresdenVerse elements.  I might go with a more-homogenous blend of Fate Core + Fate Freeport + Urban Arcana, and use elements of DFRPG without trying to use the entire ruleset+setting...
Actually no, I do want to use the DFRPG in the Dresdenverse. As I mentioned above I wanted a framework for an adventure since I'm new to actually PLAYING the game, and I think the module is a good fit. About half my group knows and loves the Dresden Files books, and want to play in that setting. They all want an urban fantasy game that uses a system other than d20. I realize I will have to tweak the module to fit DF, not the other way around. Among my group I'm the only one who takes pre-printed material and tweaks it to my chosen setting rather than make adventures from scratch. I really enjoy it.   :)
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 11, 2017, 07:07:19 AM
1) Power Level. The module assumes 1st level characters unaware of the supernatural, so I was thinking the PCs would start at Feet in the Water. One player has expressed interest in playing a werewolf, so I thought he could take some of the basic required were-powers and build up as they hit major milestones. Story-wise it may be that they'll all just be familiar wih their own powers and lore, but have only heard stories of other creatures and supernatural abilities.

I don't know much about d20 Modern, but if it's anything like regular D&D then the power levels will probably be difficult to convert evenly. D&D has a much wider range of character power.

Feet in the Water characters are a lot more impressive than 1st level characters, so if you really want to fit the module you'll probably have to go lower. But there's probably no way to match the power levels in the long term if you want to keep using D20 material; even after a dozen major milestones a DFRPG character will never dwarf their past self the way a D&D character does.

So if I were you I wouldn't worry about it. Probably easiest just to stat everything to suit your own game, no matter what level it theoretically is.

I have glanced at Night Fears and Neutral Grounds, but didn't care for either. Are there more than those two?

Head over to the Adventures section here (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Downloads).
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 11, 2017, 09:52:58 PM
Quote
So if I were you I wouldn't worry about it. Probably easiest just to stat everything to suit your own game, no matter what level it theoretically is.

This is what I was thinking we'd do.  Where the flavour fits (hobgoblins using Dresden Hobgoblins etc..), you just use pre-statted foes.

@RedRobe
-I think you choose your level (feet in water sounds good because they are not completely clued in)
-You use Dresden Lore
-You use the plot of a pre-generated adventure and you slot the villains/foes into dresden lore.  I like the Kobolds because they can easily be used as dragon hench-men.  You can weave them into your City etc...

IMO, I don't see the point of having a one-shot with an enemy that you'll never see again.  I recommend you do a city-building session with your group.  If you want to have a Dwarven restaurant owner that hires supernatural creatures, it might even be fun to say one or more of the PCs work there.

I'm still partial to the mafia dragons, though.  Maybe the Dwarf works for one of the dragons...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 14, 2017, 02:25:52 PM
Taran, you have mentioned hobgoblins in your posts. To my knowledge, there are only goblins statted in Our World. Are you referring to hobs (which are nothing like hobgoblins) or is that just what you refer to them as?
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: g33k on June 14, 2017, 09:28:36 PM
  Actually no, I do want to use the DFRPG in the Dresdenverse. As I mentioned above I wanted a framework for an adventure since I'm new to actually PLAYING the game, and I think the module is a good fit. About half my group knows and loves the Dresden Files books, and want to play in that setting. They all want an urban fantasy game that uses a system other than d20. I realize I will have to tweak the module to fit DF, not the other way around. 

Your use of the UA idea of "Shadow" and "Shadowkind" seemed non-Dresden.  I think these need some extra work...  How/why are these creatures -- presumably Nevernever natives -- residing in the mortal world?  Some kind of faerie?  Some kind of "changed" mortal, such as a were or a RedCourt vamp?  Might they represent (eventually, in campaign-play) allies or adversaries (or some of each; or something more complicated; etc...) ?

You've got a problem, conceptually, with the apparent "mainstreaming" these monsters seem to be trying (or maybe I misunderstood?).  The "glamour" / ward, or whatever, that makes them pass as normal in the shop is all well and good, but... what do they do IN THE REST OF THEIR LIVES (with no glamour protecting them)?  Not so mainstream then ...  Or do the "commute to work" straight from the Nevernever, and are NOT trying to "mainstream"?  If they're mainstreaming, aybe the boss can give them some sort of temporary (potion?) or loaner "Look Normal Veil" magic (Elaine used a subtle "nothing worth noticing here" Veil against Harry in "White Night," so something of the sort seems do-able)...

Or pick an existing Dresdenverse being; why might a group of them want to work in a restaurant?  Refugees from a hostile kingdom of the Nevernever?  Maybe they arrived with some mortal refugees, and are from that culture's myth/folklore (rather than the notably Celto-Nordic ones that Harry mostly knows)...?

Etc...
 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 14, 2017, 10:04:36 PM
Your use of the UA idea of "Shadow" and "Shadowkind" seemed non-Dresden.  I think these need some extra work...  How/why are these creatures -- presumably Nevernever natives -- residing in the mortal world?  Some kind of faerie?  Some kind of "changed" mortal, such as a were or a RedCourt vamp?  Might they represent (eventually, in campaign-play) allies or adversaries (or some of each; or something more complicated; etc...) ?

You've got a problem, conceptually, with the apparent "mainstreaming" these monsters seem to be trying (or maybe I misunderstood?).  The "glamour" / ward, or whatever, that makes them pass as normal in the shop is all well and good, but... what do they do IN THE REST OF THEIR LIVES (with no glamour protecting them)?  Not so mainstream then ...  Or do the "commute to work" straight from the Nevernever, and are NOT trying to "mainstream"?  If they're mainstreaming, aybe the boss can give them some sort of temporary (potion?) or loaner "Look Normal Veil" magic (Elaine used a subtle "nothing worth noticing here" Veil against Harry in "White Night," so something of the sort seems do-able)...

Or pick an existing Dresdenverse being; why might a group of them want to work in a restaurant?  Refugees from a hostile kingdom of the Nevernever?  Maybe they arrived with some mortal refugees, and are from that culture's myth/folklore (rather than the notably Celto-Nordic ones that Harry mostly knows)...?

Etc...

I know I've said it a bunch but: Two dragons running parts of the city would cool.  They could travel through established ways or you could have an underground tunnel system which would be in keeping with kobolds. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 15, 2017, 12:38:21 PM
Your use of the UA idea of "Shadow" and "Shadowkind" seemed non-Dresden.  I think these need some extra work...  How/why are these creatures -- presumably Nevernever natives -- residing in the mortal world?  Some kind of faerie?  Some kind of "changed" mortal, such as a were or a RedCourt vamp?  Might they represent (eventually, in campaign-play) allies or adversaries (or some of each; or something more complicated; etc...) ?

You've got a problem, conceptually, with the apparent "mainstreaming" these monsters seem to be trying (or maybe I misunderstood?).  The "glamour" / ward, or whatever, that makes them pass as normal in the shop is all well and good, but... what do they do IN THE REST OF THEIR LIVES (with no glamour protecting them)?  Not so mainstream then ...  Or do the "commute to work" straight from the Nevernever, and are NOT trying to "mainstream"?  If they're mainstreaming, aybe the boss can give them some sort of temporary (potion?) or loaner "Look Normal Veil" magic (Elaine used a subtle "nothing worth noticing here" Veil against Harry in "White Night," so something of the sort seems do-able)...

I dont think that is as big of an issue as you think, (though I dont think Im fully getting your image of "mainstreaming"?).  Just spittballing some possibilities here:

The shop would, presumably, cater to all kinds of non-human clientèle.  Based on the internet-guru basement-horde dwellers description I'd expect most of the actual Kobold gang/tribe would live in-house (which would be needed to provide a proper threshold anyway) and that the place would have three entrances: street level, an UnderTown entrance for those that have trouble entering streetside, and a porperly anchored NN Way entrance.  The Kobolds likely could craft potions, etc to carry veils outside if needed, but for internet enthusiasts in the era of Amazon Now 2-hour delivery they might not actually need to leave all that much, at least not in broad daylight.  The other clients would be responsible for their own travel arrangements.   The shop could more or less be a Non-human counterpart to Mac's.  Might even be fun to run the quest where they want to get it declared Accorded Neutral Ground.

As far as what they do besides run the shop, Information Brokers comes to mind.  A few in the tribe that lean more toward Supernatural Fences/middlemen would work too.  Basically as a hub of the supernatural Black Market. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 27, 2017, 05:55:48 PM
I know I've said it a bunch but: Two dragons running parts of the city would cool.  They could travel through established ways or you could have an underground tunnel system which would be in keeping with kobolds.
This might work. In Urban Arcana there is a silver dragon working behind the scenes as the benefactor of a do-gooder group that works to stop incursions of evil supernatural creatures while protecting the good ones. He could be one of the two trying to run the city. I would probably make them lesser dragons.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 27, 2017, 09:04:15 PM
This might work. In Urban Arcana there is a silver dragon working behind the scenes as the benefactor of a do-gooder group that works to stop incursions of evil supernatural creatures while protecting the good ones. He could be one of the two trying to run the city. I would probably make them lesser dragons.
That would be my recommendation, the lesser dragons are still damn beefy in all regards, just not full deity level
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: g33k on June 28, 2017, 06:33:20 PM
I dont think that is as big of an issue as you think, (though I dont think Im fully getting your image of "mainstreaming"?).

And I may, in my turn, have completely misunderstood what the OP envisioned.

Here's the crux of it:  Why in the world are these supernaturals (Kobolds) working as "staff" in a public cafe/restaurant???

Brownies clean, it's just their nature.  Cobbs make and repair shoes, and that's THEIR nature.
What kind of supernatural being waits tables, busses dirty dishes, does the barista bit, etc?

And keeps regular working hours?

In jobs that bring them into frequent contact with non-clued mortals?

In the Dresden'verse, I keep WTF'ing...

So it looks to me like they are trying to "mainstream:"  trying to life a day-to-day life largely as if they were mortals themselves.  Working and living alongside mortals.  Passing as mortals.

Maybe that's just me, misunderstanding the OP ...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 28, 2017, 08:11:03 PM
And I may, in my turn, have completely misunderstood what the OP envisioned.

Here's the crux of it:  Why in the world are these supernaturals (Kobolds) working as "staff" in a public cafe/restaurant???

Brownies clean, it's just their nature.  Cobbs make and repair shoes, and that's THEIR nature.
What kind of supernatural being waits tables, busses dirty dishes, does the barista bit, etc?

And keeps regular working hours?

In jobs that bring them into frequent contact with non-clued mortals?

In the Dresden'verse, I keep WTF'ing...

So it looks to me like they are trying to "mainstream:"  trying to life a day-to-day life largely as if they were mortals themselves.  Working and living alongside mortals.  Passing as mortals.

Maybe that's just me, misunderstanding the OP ...
I guess I should clarify that I am including things outside of Dresden Files canon to make the setting my own. Not a lot, mind you, but things like kobolds and other D&D creatures that were taken from real world mythology and folklore. In my version not all creatures come from the Nevernever, and have always been of Earth. I will most likely pull a bit from Supernatural and similar shows as I have seen done on several PBP games here and on other sites.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 28, 2017, 08:35:11 PM
And I may, in my turn, have completely misunderstood what the OP envisioned.

Here's the crux of it:  Why in the world are these supernaturals (Kobolds) working as "staff" in a public cafe/restaurant???

Brownies clean, it's just their nature.  Cobbs make and repair shoes, and that's THEIR nature.
What kind of supernatural being waits tables, busses dirty dishes, does the barista bit, etc?

And keeps regular working hours?
Brownies clean (though they are Fae so it cant be Free) in the same way Toot and dewdrop fairies..do whatever they do, and are on a similar developmental rung.  The OP gives me the sense that their image of Kobolds is closer to Svartalves, who own property, wear uniforms and/or suits as needed, and operate Mail-order businesses.  In other words: for any race sufficiently advanced/mature/intelligent they have learned the age-old proverb "If you are good at something, never do it for free." 

In the case of this version of Kobolds, specifically:

1) Not Staff, Owner/operators.  Owning your own business makes a BIG difference.  But otherwise assume its a front, no more legit than the Italian restaurant the stereotype mob boss owns.  Their real business would be more along the lines of Information Broker or maybe Fense. 

2) If they are bothering to live in the Mortal world at all, presumably it has something to offer them.  The business HQ would off them a Brick&Mortar front, a legitimate mortal/bureaucratic presence and Identity, and ultimately access to any and all resources you'd expect to otherwise be out of reach for denizens of Undertown.       

3) The cafe descriptions were more along the lines of internet cafe/coffee shop, so I was picturing severe Night-Owl hours, if not open 24-hours.

4)They can always hire brownies to handle the drudgery they dont want to do. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 29, 2017, 04:16:52 AM
And I may, in my turn, have completely misunderstood what the OP envisioned.

Here's the crux of it:  Why in the world are these supernaturals (Kobolds) working as "staff" in a public cafe/restaurant???

Brownies clean, it's just their nature.  Cobbs make and repair shoes, and that's THEIR nature.
What kind of supernatural being waits tables, busses dirty dishes, does the barista bit, etc?

And keeps regular working hours?

In jobs that bring them into frequent contact with non-clued mortals?

In the Dresden'verse, I keep WTF'ing...

So it looks to me like they are trying to "mainstream:"  trying to life a day-to-day life largely as if they were mortals themselves.  Working and living alongside mortals.  Passing as mortals.

Maybe that's just me, misunderstanding the OP ...

This is why I've been trying to think of how to fit them into the Dresdenverse.   What is a Kobold and what is it's nature? It's a tiny dragonling that likes to scheme, play tricks and make traps.  I'm not sure where they fit in real-world mythology.

I like the idea of an internet cafe/computer servers because you can have virtual lairs that are trapped with viruses.  Since modern day money is more credit than piles of gold, Kobolds can be the dragons minions that are the first line of defense for its virtual horde.   Computers can't really function in the Nevernever so you have a reason to be in the city.  After that, it's more about what the Dragon's goals which will guide what the Kobolds are doing.

The cafe works better than a random building full of computer servers because(random ideas):

1. (story hook) It gives a reason for the PCs to interact with the NPCs (they happen to be at the locale)
2.  It allows random people to walk in and drop off all their personal information (stolen by the kobolds' clever spyware) allowing them to hack people later and steal more money for the dragon.  Or just have information on lots and lots of people in the city.  Not to mention identity theft etc...
3. launder illicit funds and other underground criminal-type operations.
4.....
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: g33k on June 29, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
The premise is ... One crew works at the restaurant and the other group comes in to settle a score.
The OP gives me the sense that their image of Kobolds is closer to Svartalves, who own property, wear uniforms and/or suits as needed, and operate Mail-order businesses. 
Well, but he's specifically citing the d20 Kobold, in his source material.  Pretty weak, bottom-tier foes (unless they have "class-levels" (extra Refresh, in DFRPG terms)).  But in any case:  foes suitable for his starting PC's (which Svartalves are NOT... ) in a semi(?) comedic "food-fight" scenario.

In the case of this version of Kobolds, specifically:
1) Not Staff, Owner/operators.
I... guess?  I'd be surprised to see d20-esque Kobolds "running a business" in any D&D setting; it doesn't "feel right" for them.

I guess I should clarify that I am including things outside of Dresden Files canon to make the setting my own. Not a lot, mind you, but things like kobolds and other D&D creatures that were taken from real world mythology and folklore. In my version not all creatures come from the Nevernever, and have always been of Earth. I will most likely pull a bit from Supernatural and similar shows as I have seen done on several PBP games here and on other sites.
"Dragons" in Dresdenverse are even-more-badass than in D&D; I am certain there are no tribes of such debased dragonet's (plus, that whole "dragon" linkage to Kobolds is an affectation of D&D; they are akin, folklorically, to a dwarf or other earth-faerie) !

I might take the "kobold" name and power-level (the small/weak/dextrous/trap-maker vibe), but re-do D&D's reptilian/draconic visual into something a bit more human/faerie in nature.  Some of those folkloric antecedents in fact ARE suited for "domestic service" (e.g. in a restaurant or the like), being almost like Brownies !

But then again, it's your game and you are making it YOUR own, so maybe you'd best ignore my folkloric sense...
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 29, 2017, 09:05:42 PM
Well, but he's specifically citing the d20 Kobold, in his source material.  Pretty weak, bottom-tier foes (unless they have "class-levels" (extra Refresh, in DFRPG terms)).  But in any case:  foes suitable for his starting PC's (which Svartalves are NOT... ) in a semi(?) comedic "food-fight" scenario.
I... guess?  I'd be surprised to see d20-esque Kobolds "running a business" in any D&D setting; it doesn't "feel right" for them.
"Dragons" in Dresdenverse are even-more-badass than in D&D; I am certain there are no tribes of such debased dragonet's (plus, that whole "dragon" linkage to Kobolds is an affectation of D&D; they are akin, folklorically, to a dwarf or other earth-faerie) !
True, in d20 terms, "Dragons" are beings like Tiamet and Bahamut, those with an actual Divine Rank score, whereas "dragons" are everything else up to and including your oldest True Dragons (of dnd terms)

FYI Svartalves /are/ dwarves, they were Tolkien's inspiration for the modern fantasy Dwarf.  The fact that they're historically evolved from the maggots that grew on a dead Ice Giant might not be a preferred topic of dinner conversation around them though. 

Quote
I might take the "kobold" name and power-level (the small/weak/dextrous/trap-maker vibe), but re-do D&D's reptilian/draconic visual into something a bit more human/faerie in nature.  Some of those folkloric antecedents in fact ARE suited for "domestic service" (e.g. in a restaurant or the like), being almost like Brownies !

But then again, it's your game and you are making it YOUR own, so maybe you'd best ignore my folkloric sense...
I think you might be getting stuck on Kobolds as seen in a traditional Sword&Board Fantasy setting, but you /have/ to adapt them to the Modern setting somehow, hence the focus on digital traps and hordes.  But Im not sure why you are stuck on the idea of shoehorning them into a corner of Fae, when the so easily fit the mold of one of the created servator races of the cosmic Dragons? 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: g33k on June 29, 2017, 09:55:07 PM
FYI Svartalves /are/ dwarves, they were Tolkien's inspiration for the modern fantasy Dwarf.  The fact that they're historically evolved from the maggots that grew on a dead Ice Giant might not be a preferred topic of dinner conversation around them though. 
You're right about the original material, of course.  I'm just... unclear on whether they would be proud of their origin story, or see that as grounds to attack you...  ;)

I think you might be getting stuck on Kobolds as seen in a traditional Sword&Board Fantasy setting 
  The OP is using a d20-Modern reference, which minimally-adapts D&D Kobolds.  I am "stuck on" the OP's frame of reference.  Wanting to depart from it, honestly:  I don't think D&D tropes work as well in a Modern Urban Fantasy setting.  But the OP can take what he wants of all this discussion, and leave the rest behind.   ;)

but you /have/ to adapt them to the Modern setting somehow, hence the focus on digital traps and hordes. 
I just wouldn't expect sophistication & cutting-edge stuff from D&D's "Kobold" species.  From an exceptional individual... of course!  In the modern sense, I'd think more of urban street-gang violence, etc.

But Im not sure why you are stuck on the idea of shoehorning them into a corner of Fae, when the so easily fit the mold of one of the created servator races of the cosmic Dragons? 
Kobolds have their own folkloric antecedents.  They're clearly akin to the "Brownies" of Britain, clearly fae.
Attaching them to Dragons is... um.  Doesn't happen (until D&D).

That's not to say that I don't like pretty much all of your ideas -- the Dragon as the (ultimate) patron of a cyber-cafe; data-brokers and hackers accumulating a horde of "modern wealth;" etc.  I really like these ideas a LOT!  I just don't see "shoehorning" either the folkloric "kobold" or the D&D "kobold" into this cutting-edge stuff...

Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on June 30, 2017, 01:17:48 PM
I'm pretty sure that Butcher said that anything that exists in the mortal mind exists in the Nevernever.  Didn't he specifically say that Spiderman exists somewhere in the Nevernever?

Using that logic, I don't see why Kobolds can't exist.  Typical D&D kobolds don't have to but taking the broad theme of a kobold and fitting them into the world is fine.  Besides, it's homebrew and nothing says we can't adapt D&D kobolds to fit Dresden canon.

They could be tiny demons, closer to imps, they could be Dragon changelings (like small draconians), they could be whatever.    In fact, making them small children that were kidnapped brought to the nevernever and changed by magic works as well.  It's a bit more sinister but kids have a knack for technology combined with a kobold's knack for trap-making.

In fact, doing a quick wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold#Characteristics) search, it says that one legend says they are spirits of dead children.  A dragon harnessing necromantic magic could probably make use of them.

The same search has them as mine spirits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold#Mine_spirits)

So, they don't have to be dragon related at all but since they come in many different animal forms, there's no reason why they can't be lizard shaped.  Miners offered them offerings to keep them safe in the mines and kobolds were blamed for accidental cave-ins and mysterious deaths (caused by poison gas in the mines).  And if they can live in the mortal realm in a mine, I see no reason why they can't live in the mortal world in an internet cafe.

If a network is a mine and holds 'riches' in the form of virtual money (maybe they invented the bit-coin), then their original form gets changed.  Or you can abandon the computer lizards for something else.  I just like the image of tech-savvy lizards.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Quantus on June 30, 2017, 02:16:43 PM
You're right about the original material, of course.  I'm just... unclear on whether they would be proud of their origin story, or see that as grounds to attack you...  ;)
hehe, read the Norse spin-off of the Percy Jackson series recently. They dont see why everyone finds it so gross.  But gods help you if you sit on a barstool without first asking it's Name and History. 
Quote
  The OP is using a d20-Modern reference, which minimally-adapts D&D Kobolds.  I am "stuck on" the OP's frame of reference.  Wanting to depart from it, honestly:  I don't think D&D tropes work as well in a Modern Urban Fantasy setting.  But the OP can take what he wants of all this discussion, and leave the rest behind.   ;)
My Bad, I know nothing of d20 Modern; the closest I ever got was BESM.
Quote
I just wouldn't expect sophistication & cutting-edge stuff from D&D's "Kobold" species.  From an exceptional individual... of course!  In the modern sense, I'd think more of urban street-gang violence, etc.

Kobolds have their own folkloric antecedents.  They're clearly akin to the "Brownies" of Britain, clearly fae.
Attaching them to Dragons is... um.  Doesn't happen (until D&D).

That's not to say that I don't like pretty much all of your ideas -- the Dragon as the (ultimate) patron of a cyber-cafe; data-brokers and hackers accumulating a horde of "modern wealth;" etc.  I really like these ideas a LOT!  I just don't see "shoehorning" either the folkloric "kobold" or the D&D "kobold" into this cutting-edge stuff...
They were reasonably competent craftsmen in d20 modern, yes?  Since they dont have the mortal issue with tech, I figure that trait couldnt be modernized easily.  The drive for that modernization is 100% just to give them an excuse to interact with the mortal world at all; I figure at some point they'd either just stay in the NN or else move to some remote/isolated place and avoids mortals entirely.  And making them just another street thug race that's useless for anything but violence, while reasonable enough by popular usage, feels like a Waste.

The only reason I get stuck on the idea of tying them to Dragons is the whole Combined Roots of myths and the established fact that Dragons were gods that once-upon-a-time created reptilian servitor races.  I know early myth had them as something more like Earth Gnomes or fairies, but Ive always known them as a lizards species, so I want to put them in that category.  Im sitting here trying to think of a place they'd make sense that wasnt Draconic, but unless they are just some sort of Were-Lizards or other more shamanistic animal spirits, everything that comes to mind as sufficiently reptilian would /also/ likely get bumped into the Secretly a Dragon category, like Tiamat (confirmed by Bob to exist and get power from DnD, in Backup), or maybe Quetzalcoatl. 

And then once we've tied them to DF Dragons/dragons, I just ran with what various disparate details we have about them.


I'm pretty sure that Butcher said that anything that exists in the mortal mind exists in the Nevernever.  Didn't he specifically say that Spiderman exists somewhere in the Nevernever?
Sorta, Everything including Spiderman exist out in the Multiverse, not in the NN; Parallel worlds are specifically something different.  The closest thing I know of is the The Hulk now carries the original mantle of Hercules, and so it now "exist in the minds and imaginations of the fans" (paraphrasing)
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on June 30, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
I do enjoy reading all the suggestions and ideas being generated. I may just wait to see what kind of game he players are interested in before I move forward with the kobold thing. I like the idea of rival dragons in the background. My take on kobolds combined their D&D Draconic appearance with their mythological roots. I could see the working kobolds as dragon scions given a chance to work for their dragon relative at one of his/her business ventures to learn about Earth finance. The rival gang could be the take-and-hoard-minded scions of the other dragon.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on November 14, 2017, 09:27:12 PM
I want to share an update on my first Dresden scenario. We spent the first two sessions building the city of Columbus, Indiana, and the characters. The third session we started with the characters meeting at a new fast Greek/Asian fusion restaurant (think Fazoli's) to discuss the local problems with a RCV-developed drug called Red Moon making its rounds through the city. I used the d20 Modern Urban Arcana adventure at the back of the campaign setting as a guide. The PCs stopped a brawl between some unruly kobold gangs. Some issues that came up were grokking how maneuvers work, and tagging of aspects placed on baddies. I used the kobold stats provided in this thread. They were super useful! Thanks to all who helped!
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on November 14, 2017, 09:59:11 PM
What were your issues with maneuvers?
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on November 14, 2017, 11:00:57 PM
Basically the issue was how to pass the free tag from the Helpful Thug aspect created by the maneuver to another character. Then it was narrating how the thug distracted another baddie resulting in the PC who it was passed to getting a +2 on his attack roll rather than the baddie getting a negative to his defense roll.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on November 15, 2017, 02:33:02 AM
Basically the issue was how to pass the free tag from the Helpful Thug aspect created by the maneuver to another character. Then it was narrating how the thug distracted another baddie resulting in the PC who it was passed to getting a +2 on his attack roll rather than the baddie getting a negative to his defense roll.

First, you can never give a penalty or block a person's ability to dodge.  Unless it's a compel.  Then anything goes, as long as the compel is fair.

Second: You can do it any way the player wants.

Invoke it for effect.  Now, HELPFUL THUG won't attack us as long as we don't try to hurt him.  This triggers a compel on the thug.  If the NPC accepts the compel,  You run the NPC as being helpful and it can create its own aspects.  It uses it's own turn in the combat to create aspects that the party can tag or it just doesn't interfere.  It may try, on it's turn to overcome the aspect in subsequent rounds.  Social maneuvers and aspects are trickier I find.  You shouldn't be able to permanently take out an enemy with a maneuver, in most cases.  Maybe he uses deceit to 'pretend to be helpful' and if it succeeds, it doesn't need to help you anymore and, possibly, backstabs someone....

Or, you tag HELPFUL THUG for an attack.  "That thug is being helpful and distracts the enemy long enough for me to get a good jab in."  And now the aspect is gone or whatever.

Let the person who tags the aspect describe how they use it.

Important:  there is no right answer.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on November 15, 2017, 01:27:54 PM


Or, you tag HELPFUL THUG for an attack.  "That thug is being helpful and distracts the enemy long enough for me to get a good jab in."  And now the aspect is gone or whatever.


This is what ended up happening, though the HELPFUL THUG aspect stayed for other paid invokes. If it the tag is spent in this way, then should it go away? If used in any of the other ways, like invoking it for effect, would it stick around until it is overcome? 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on November 15, 2017, 01:37:27 PM
If it's a fragile aspect, it needs to be used fairly quickly and it goes away as soon as it's tagged. 

Otherwise, sticky aspects go away when they are no longer relevant, or if they are overcome.

So, attacking the HELPFUL THUG would make the aspect moot.

I guess my point is this:  you can't use a single rapport roll to turn every enemy into an ally for an entire combat.  This feels like a social take-out to me.  So, if there's still a chance that the HELPFUL THUG would become unhelpful because it's just a maneuver and not a social take-out, you should keep an eye out on a situation where the aspect is irrelevant:  like when the party attacks his friend, tries to take the Artifact he was tasked with getting, or if being Helpful is no longer relevant to his goals.

For instance, being tripped can be overcome with a role, if the players are actively trying to prevent the person from standing up.  If no-one is actively preventing that, then there is no roll - they just stand up.

On the other hand, as the GM you might have planned that into your adventure.  You just have to be careful with precedent.   Otherwise your player will be taking everyone out with his epic rapport roles.
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: RedRobe on November 15, 2017, 03:29:17 PM
The player wanted to use Rapport or Presence to get the kobold to go away or stop attacking folks, much like an Intimidate check in Pathfinder would have allowed. Could we have switched from attempting a maneuver to a full-on Social conflict? I'm still trying to wrap my head around the many options available in any given encounter. 
Title: Re: Converting d20 Adventure Modules to DFRPG
Post by: Taran on November 15, 2017, 04:20:13 PM
Probably.  it would be an action - or you could run it as a separate conflict going on simultaneously...whatever you think fits the scenario.

Or a single roll is fine too.  Just remember that maneuvers are transient.

If doing a maneuver would take an enemy out of the combat permanently, then it probably shouldn't be a maneuver.  It should be an attack.

To relate it to pathfinder, if convincing a cowardly minion to flee or turn on his boss might be a single roll then it could be done as a maneuver or 'consequential contest' (YS pg. 193). 

But There will be situations where you just can`t convince a minion to help you and, just because your bard has +20 to diplomacy, it doesn`t mean he can `defeat' every encounter with a skill check.  In that situation, you may have to do an extended social conflict or just say it won't work.

Convincing the boss to surrender might require more than one roll.  It might be the whole social encounter.  Or maybe you have to fight him first and, when he`s losing, use diplomacy or intimidation to get him to surrender.

Note: sometimes, with especially powerful maneuvers - usually done by a wizard - I might allow a maneuver to take out an enemy.

One example is putting Power 10 'collapsed roof' on a scene and invoking it for effect.  If a Power 10 evocation attack would automatically take out an enemy, it's probably fair to say that the roof has collapsed and crushed or pinned that same enemy.  But this is GM discretion.  NPCs can concede at any time.

Quote
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the many options available in any given encounter.

Yeah, there's no right or best way.  Do what flows best and what your table thinks is cool and fun.  And not every action will work in a given situation but, often, trying but failing an action can be fun too.