Are we talking about Changes or MM Harry?
If the former, I always thought that Harry would've just go to Graceland, stir the ghosts of the place up, and eat them. Graceland has a lot of spooks, IIRC. If he were to use the Ramps as the power source, he'd be too late because broken back and all that.
I looked at her steadily for a moment. Then I shrugged. "If you don't want to do business,At this point he's in a bed paralyzed. Could he have pulled it off in that state? Or was he just bluffing?
I'll go elsewhere. I could still call Lasciel's coin to me in a heartbeat--and Nicodemus and the
Denarians would be more than happy to help me. I am also one of the only people alive who
knows how to pull off Kemmler's Darkhallow. So if Nicky and the Nickelheads don't want to
play, I can damned well get the power for myself--and the next time I call your name, I won't
need to be nearly so polite."
What bothers me is that he was considering it as a Plan C when talking to Mab.At this point he's in a bed paralyzed. Could he have pulled it off in that state? Or was he just bluffing?
He could I think. He might need someone to help him to move around but other than that he could pull it off.I don't think that anyone that could help him with that would do it. And he probably couldn't do it lying in bed.
I don't think that anyone that could help him with that would do it. And he probably couldn't do it lying in bed.I read the statement a bit differently; that he would call Lasciels coin to get mobility, THEN if the Nickelheads were not going to follow his lead, perform the dark hollow to get the additional power he would need, at which point probably won't even need Lasciels coin either...
I don't think it could be done in changes. Not only not by Harry, but not by anyone. Per Bob in CD, the mortality of immortals on Halloween is what would have allowed it to work.The importance of Halloween is that it's when Immortals become semi mortal, also good for when masks(mantles) are donned and/or removed. The death of an Immortal wasn't required for the DH, but it was convenient to have the Hunt gathering and stirring up the warrior and hunter spirits.
The key word is "potential power ups". Just like taking a denarian coin would be a potential power up. There are lots of ways to get power - and many of them are very dark.
I don't have Grave Peril with me at the moment and it's been a while since I've read it, didn't Harry absorb some of the power of the spirits killed by the Reds? If I remember correctly, it was only temporary, but wouldn't that have been along the lines of a dark hallow? Improperly done as it was only temporary, but still in that type of power assumption?And he ate Kravos, for a more permanent powerup.
I don't have Grave Peril with me at the moment and it's been a while since I've read it, didn't Harry absorb some of the power of the spirits killed by the Reds? If I remember correctly, it was only temporary, but wouldn't that have been along the lines of a dark hallow? Improperly done as it was only temporary, but still in that type of power assumption?Other direction, he poured power into /them/ which woke them up and gave them the strength to swarm the reds. He did eat Kravos, it was mostly eating what the kravos ghost had previously stolen from him, though he did get some of kravos including one of the guys spells, though that was temporary by all indications. Which fit the various incomplete bits we know of the difference between spirits/ghosts and souls, etc.
One of my longshot WAGs is the you can eat ghosts to get a powerup, but it's only temporary unless you gobble up a bunch of "soul" to glue it together.Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.
It's got to do with some hair-splitting interpretation of something Jim once said, explains why the Kravos powerup didn't last and gives a reason for why the Darkhallow in DB needed to be in the middle of a city.
Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.
Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.
To swallow the Immortals it summons (because they cannot die unless it's Halloween). My belief that he'd absorb the power of the combined thousands of sacrifices the Red Court performed to power the Blood Line curse would be a mini Dark Hallow. He'd get a lot of power from it, but it wouldn't be a proper Dark Hallow that makes you a dark god. Remember it's supposed to be something on par with becoming a Winter Knight and it's benefits. Halloween wouldn't be a requirement under these circumstances.Im still pretty well convinced that only the spirits and mortals were in danger, not the immortals like the Erlking himself; all the descriptions have it being direct to the interplay of the human spirits and the human Life Energy being sucked out, afaict. The erlkings presence was there to use the hunt to stir up more and older ghosts (using the exhibit CT had gathered to get the spirits in the area). Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?
Im still pretty well convinced that only the spirits and mortals were in danger, not the immortals like the Erlking himself; all the descriptions have it being direct to the interplay of the human spirits and the human Life Energy being sucked out, afaict. The erlkings presence was there to use the hunt to stir up more and older ghosts (using the exhibit CT had gathered to get the spirits in the area). Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?
I don't agree but that's just meYa, I've never been able to pull together enough evidence to definitely prove it (though I thought some of the CD revelations supported it), so it's still just another theory.
Ya, I've never been able to pull together enough evidence to definitely prove it (though I thought some of the CD revelations supported it), so it's still just another theory.
The way I understood it that he'd consume the Erlking, and the hunt along with ghosts, and all the people who died as a result. Swallowing a lot of ghosts would make you really powerful, but Mab describing him as a dark god the likes of which had never been witnessed by humans gave me the impression he'd probably be on par with Mab, if not more powerful... I don't think ghosts alone could do that.You arent alone in that impression, certainly, and it's been asked directly, after Darkhallowed-Cowl made the list of those that could take Mab in a straight fight:
5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
[...]
why doesn't cowl do the darkhallow thing on a remote island or in the middle of the sahara desert or something...same with hag. just a question that's been bothering me...
Cause you need people around to fuel the fire. :) Had Cowl been successful, his ascension would have exterminated every source of life for several miles--and the more who died, the more elevated he would have become. Think of them as a big old batch of human sacrifices.
The hag's ritual was a far more primitive version of Kemmler's rite, and wouldn't have done nearly as much for her as the Darkhallow would have for Cowl--but it still would have sparked off massive violence, plague, ill-fortune and general chaos for miles all around.
Q - I have to agree that the Erlking was in danger.
The DH was going to be performed on Halloween. The Erlking is an immortal with a Mantle/Mask. We know they are vulnerable on Halloween. I don't see why he'd be immune.
Q - I have to agree that the Erlking was in danger.Wait, I see where we are talking Apples to Oranges here. The Darkhallow was Eating Mortal Ghosts; that is what was fueling the Spell itself and what the Erlking was summoned to stir up. The Erlking was not part of that. However, he'd still be a being who's machinery runs on Life Energy, so he'd have to book it fast into the NN to avoid the Desolation Vacuum of Life that would immediately follow.
The DH was going to be performed on Halloween. The Erlking is an immortal with a Mantle/Mask. We know they are vulnerable on Halloween. I don't see why he'd be immune.
Q - I think there is a difference.But then it's not a New Mantle. It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.
I think you are right that the ErlKing was brought in to raise more hunter spirits to be eaten.
However, I believe that had it stuck around, he too would have been eaten, not just killed, by the darkhallow. I think his power (and mantle) would have gone to the person who ate the DH.
But then it's not a New Mantle. It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.
Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?
But then it's not a New Mantle. It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.
Are we sure the Erlking realizing what was going on after the fact didn't cause him to take it down a notch?Worthwhile question. He says in DB he's letting Harry go because harry's too beat up to be a fun hunt, and because Harry pleased him with the summoning of Sue (See spoiler below for exact phrasing). Im not sure I see much wriggle room for a hidden "Thank you for saving my bacon", but what say you:
I mean, he is a Fae - he can't just entirely write off a grudge. But he found an excuse to give Harry an abeyance on acting on it, and then eventually "hunted" him in such a way as to actually help him. That's a pretty big switch from threatening to destroy Harry on the spot when he was initially trapped
Initially, Harry gave the Erlking a pretty poor explanation by saying that he'd trapped him to stop humans from suffering and dying, rather than that he was trying to interrupt freaking necromancers from summoning the Erlking elsewhere to eat his hunters and maybe him as well. I'm pretty sure the Erlking either figured out the bigger picture or was told by Mab by the time he came back and told Harry he would spare him that night.
I'd say it depends on how the transfer is made. If the Erlking was killed on the stone table, would his mantle cease to exist? As opposed to him being just killed on Halloween by ... say ... a bullet to the head.We're talking about the DB Darkhallow though, not the Table. Regarding the Table there's a WOJ where he implies the table would indeed eat the mantle (of the Summer Knight, in that case) and give the other court it's /Power/ specifically, rather than the Mantle itself. See below for exact (lightly frustrating) phrasing.
We're talking about the DB Darkhallow though, not the Table. Regarding the Table there's a WOJ where he implies the table would indeed eat the mantle (of the Summer Knight, in that case) and give the other court it's /Power/ specifically, rather than the Mantle itself. See below for exact (lightly frustrating) phrasing.
Right. I'm not arguing about the table. I'm saying we never saw the DH completed, and we really don't know what it does nor how it does it from a power transfer perspective.Oh, well in that case I disagree since we have several WOJ's describing it.
Oh, well in that case I disagree since we have several WOJ's describing it.
We have WOJ's describing how the Dark Hallow works?Sure. We have these two:
5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Why doesn't cowl do the darkhallow thing on a remote island or in the middle of the sahara desert or something...same with hag. just a question that's been bothering me...
Cause you need people around to fuel the fire. :) Had Cowl been successful, his ascension would have exterminated every source of life for several miles--and the more who died, the more elevated he would have become. Think of them as a big old batch of human sacrifices.
The hag's ritual was a far more primitive version of Kemmler's rite, and wouldn't have done nearly as much for her as the Darkhallow would have for Cowl--but it still would have sparked off massive violence, plague, ill-fortune and general chaos for miles all around.
So, I'm a little confused.Best interpreation I have is to consider a Darkhallow to be like holding a straw with the top plugged by your thumb; the "Power" that actually gets eaten is the Water (the Ghosts, all Necromantic energy), and the Life that gets drawn out by the resulting Vacuum is the Air that you release with your thumb to let that water fall out. The Air/Life is filling a void left behind by the Necromantic ghost energies that got consumed, but the amount of Life/Air available to fill that void directly limits how much Water/Necromantic energy can Move (ie get consumed) in the first place, as both things happen together. So you stir up whatever arbitrary number of ghosts you can, because that's where the Power comes from; and that part is made easier by having a thin/weakened Border and also if you have powerful NN creatures with Ghost Summoning capabilities. But if you dont set your proverbial Dinner Table in a place that has an equivalent amount of Life Energy floating around you to fill in the space as you draw it down, you wont be able to swallow.
Does the power from the spirits go to the one who eats the DH, or the power of the deaths, or both?
And IS the Earlking a Mantle, or an ascension that gave power and he's kept it? What I mean is that is "Earlking" a Mantle, or a title. And he has a power, but is it a cohesive mantle, or just, like Harry, an source of power?I am as confident as I can be that he's a Mantle without having a direct WOJ that uses the term. But he's always described as a Peer to Mab (in a way that does not mean Power levels) and a direct counterpart of Kringle who /is/ specifically a Mantle. We know per WOJ that Eldest is an important and common Mantle, so I dont know if the Erlking is defined as the Eldest Goblin, or if it's perhaps a Hunter Spirit mantle that happens to reside in a goblin king currently.
Okay, I like the straw analogy. That makes sense.His Power would /not/ be consumed, is my point. He personally might be Killed, but that's not the same thing. Maeve was Killed, but her Power, her Mantle, simply moved on to the next host unharmed. If his power were Consumed, the Mantle itself would be destroyed/subsumed into the new Necro-Mantle.
The part that confuses me then, if the Erlking is present, his power would be consumed, but he's alive, so ... there's a contradiction there.
“Halloween is when they feed,” Bob said. “Or . . . or refuel. Or run free. It’s all sort of the same thing, and I’m only conveying a small part of it. Halloween night is when the locked stasis of immortality becomes malleable. They take in energy—and it’s when they can add new power to their mantle. Mostly they steal tiny bits of it from other immortals.”
“Those Kemmlerite freaks and their Darkhallow,” I breathed. “That was Halloween night.”
“Exactly!” Bob said. “That ritual was supposed to turn one of them into an immortal. And the same rule applies—that’s the only night of the year it actually can happen.
Jim has already answered those questions.1
yearsof back and forth on the issue and it just keeps popping up.
Someone just needs to ask "During the Darkhallow, would the Erlking have gotten sucked up and eaten along with all his power/mantle?" and "Do all mantle act like the Queens' mantle where they are independent things, that jump to a new vessel when the old one dies?".Maybe, though I think people waste those opportunities by asking stuff he's already talked about and answered several times. There's hardly anything new in the latest interviews. I sometimes wish I could go there but it'd be an intercontinental flight for me. >:(
Imho, the second quote answers it clear as crystal: The Erlking was summoned to be eaten for his power.Still have to entirely disagree with your read: all it says in that quote is that he was summoned to increase the total yield of the Darkhallow, and DB itself says that the mechanism by which he does that is his ability to summon harder-to-reach ghosts via his ability to conjure up the Wild Hunt. Assuming he or his mantle was in direct danger still seems to contradict all his statements and/or actions during the story.
Still have to entirely disagree with your read: all it says in that quote is that he was summoned to increase the total yield of the Darkhallow, and DB itself says that the mechanism by which he does that is his ability to summon harder-to-reach ghosts via his ability to conjure up the Wild Hunt. Assuming he or his mantle was in direct danger still seems to contradict all his statements and/or actions during the story.You mean he should have seen what was going on and run away as far as he could if he was in danger?
You mean he should have seen what was going on and run away as far as he could if he was in danger?No, as Ive explained I think he was not in direct danger, and his Power/Mantle was not in the equation of Power that was getting eaten. The spirits of the Hunt he called up were. He might have been subject to the vacuum fallout that was expected to happen after (along with Thomas and anything operating on Life Energy that had joined the Hunt), though I expect he could and did avoid that without too much trouble.
Maybe, but I think it's possible that he didn't realize there was a Dark Hallow planned. It was super-secret knowledge from Kemmler. He might have just seen some Necromancers slugging it out with their usual zombie weapons.
ETA: The Wild Hunt didn't seem to attack the Necromancers and they didn't seem to fear it could happen. Necromancy could be antithetical to the power of the Wild Hunt, which is a primal urge to hunt for living beings.
If Harry had tried to do the DH in Changes, AT Chichen Itza, do you think the vacuum created would have ripped apart all of the Rampires there?
The Erlking doesn't have free will, so it doesn't matter how smart he is or whether he knew the darkhallow was happening. He was summoned to lead the hunt in Chicago and had no choice but to do so, even if it means his death.Hmmm, interesting idea! I never considered that it could be reversed, where a giant ball of /Life/ magic might create a vacuum to suck in Necromancy.
Using the straw analogy, I think Harry could have absorbed the power from the human sacrifices and the Reds nearby would have died to fill the void.
The Erlking doesn't have free will, so it doesn't matter how smart he is or whether he knew the darkhallow was happening. He was summoned to lead the hunt in Chicago and had no choice but to do so, even if it means his death.I disagree slightly. Lack of Free Will means he can't go against his nature. It doesn't mean he has to do whatever anyone tells him to do. Depending on what's going on, his sense of self preservation may overrule his job as leader of the Hunt. He did after all throw the fight with Harry in Cold Days.
I disagree slightly. Lack of Free Will means he can't go against his nature. It doesn't mean he has to do whatever anyone tells him to do. Depending on what's going on, his sense of self preservation may overrule his job as leader of the Hunt. He did after all throw the fight with Harry in Cold Days.I'd argue that risk assessment and self-preservation in the face of powerful threats is 100% in line with his predatory nature. After all "“When hunting a fox, one must be wary not to follow it into the great bear’s lair. This is common sense for any hunter, by my reckoning.” (Erlking, Changes ch 36).
Also, he wasn't summoned to lead the hunt, he was specifically summoned NOT to lead the hunt.
The Erlking doesn't have free will, so it doesn't matter how smart he is or whether he knew the darkhallow was happening. He was summoned to lead the hunt in Chicago and had no choice but to do so, even if it means his death.
Yeah. I'm just arguing with the idea that the Erlking must show up and stick his head through the noose, risking his death just because he lacks Free Will.I get that's your argument, I just dont understand it. Lacking Free Will just means that he cannot even conceive of changing his fundamental nature and so will never just decide that "Hunting is Boring" or that "Things deserve to Live" or some such. But it doesnt make him a Bad Hunter, which (by his own description in Changes) he would be if he heedlessly charged into danger th3e way you describe. With the exception of the Summoning itself, which is described as a sort of imposed OCD and requires that he appear, he is not compelled to do anything else.
I disagree slightly. Lack of Free Will means he can't go against his nature. It doesn't mean he has to do whatever anyone tells him to do. Depending on what's going on, his sense of self preservation may overrule his job as leader of the Hunt. He did after all throw the fight with Harry in Cold Days.
Also, he wasn't summoned to lead the hunt, he was specifically summoned NOT to lead the hunt.
By "arguing with" I mean "arguing against." I agree with you. I disagree with Cozarkian.Sorry, my mistake :-[
He was able to throw the fight with Harry but he wasn't able to simply redirect or stop the hunt. And Harry used a ritual to call forth the Erlking as a leader of the hunt, it doesn't really matter what Harry's subjective intent was. Objectively, Harry knew that if the Erlking broke his circle there would be a hunt.Not trying and not Able are wildly different. He (and kringle, who might have actually been the one leading the hunt) NEEDED Harry to take it over, which is the whole reason they threw the fight; "redirecting or stopping the hunt" would have buggered that up entirely and negated the whole point of the subterfuge.
Sorry, my mistake :-[
Not trying and not Able are wildly different. He (and kringle, who might have actually been the one leading the hunt) NEEDED Harry to take it over, which is the whole reason they threw the fight; "redirecting or stopping the hunt" would have buggered that up entirely and negated the whole point of the subterfuge.
Of course he was going to Hunt on Halloween if summoned to the Mortal World. By the sound of CD he does that every year. But being summoned doesnt force him to suddenly become a BAD Hunter, which this would be by his own definition.
The only possible reason they would need Harry to take over the hunt is if they were unable to go after the Outsiders on their own initiative.Indeed, which I believe is exactly what was happening. They told harry that “You are the leader of the Hunt. What you wright with your power will grace each of us." and then just after that Harry was able to shake the Psychic Attack of a Walker which freed them all from it at the same time, after which the Erlking gave him credit by shouting “Well-done, starborn!” Which I take to indicate that Starborn is the same "outsider power" Lash was talking about, and that the hunt could not safety Face off against an Outsider without a Starborn in Charge of the hunt and thus sharing the aegis of his protection. Potential protection I should say, as it was not easy or automatic.
Erlking was quite a good hunter in DB, he clearly knew something was going on because he knew Harry raised Sue, but he neither stopped the hunt nor left Chicago.
If he was simply not concerned by the darkhallow because it was only going to kill his entire hunting party but not him, that would make him a terrible Hunter. Again, this leads us to there was nothing he could do.
Or, alternatively, maybe he was doing something. Maybe he was chasing one of the other necromancers so Harry could stop Cowl.
I wonder if the other members of the hunt took on any of Harry's "Starborn" power over outsiders-ness?I suspect so, though aside from the resistance above I couldnt say what they might be.
I suspect so, though aside from the resistance above I couldnt say what they might be.
I wonder if Harry can now Summon the Hunt on his own, having successfully Led it in the past.
Indeed, which I believe is exactly what was happening. They told harry that “You are the leader of the Hunt. What you wright with your power will grace each of us." and then just after that Harry was able to shake the Psychic Attack of a Walker which freed them all from it at the same time, after which the Erlking gave him credit by shouting “Well-done, starborn!” Which I take to indicate that Starborn is the same "outsider power" Lash was talking about, and that the hunt could not safety Face off against an Outsider without a Starborn in Charge of the hunt and thus sharing the aegis of his protection. Potential protection I should say, as it was not easy or automatic.
" The whole Winter Knight thing," I said. "It's made me stronger." "True enough," he said. "But not that much stronger," I said. "The Erlking could have gotten out of the way of that shot." "Really?" "You meant for me to have the Wild Hunt." "No one can be given a power like the Wild Hunt, Dresden," Kringle said. "He can only take it." "Really?" I said, as drily as I knew how.
That got a laugh from Kringle. "You have guts and will, mortal. It had to be shown, or the Hunt would never have accepted you." "Maybe I'll just punch you out whenever I feel like it then," I said. "Maybe you'll try," Kringle replied amiably. He looked out at the lightening sky and let out a satisfied breath. "It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That's all." He looked directly at me and said, "Many mantles are worn--or discarded---on Halloween night, wizard.So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over. So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.
I am wondering if appearances are just a bit deceiving and can be unclear.. Given what was told to Harry by Kringle in Cold Days pages 505-506I just took all that to mean that /the Hunt/ (which seems to be at least quasi-sentient, not unlike the Lady Mantles) requires that a new leader defeat an old, or otherwise Prove his or her Strength. The fact that both Erl and Kringle threw the fight to enure that Harry accomplished it for their own ends (ie an Outsider Hunt) might not factor into it. Both Erl and Kringle (and others per WOJ, the actual Odin being another historic example) can call up the Hunt more or less whenever they choose (dont know if it requires certain days or something additional), so theoretically he might now qualify, since despite the thrown fight the Hunt accepted him as a Leader.
Then Kringle goes on to say..So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over. So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.
I am wondering if appearances are just a bit deceiving and can be unclear.. Given what was told to Harry by Kringle in Cold Days pages 505-506
Then Kringle goes on to say..So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over. So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.
I agree with this. However, I think that because he led it once, he can again. It may take the EK to raise the hunt, but once it's raised, Harry can probably take it over, like Kringle.The Erlking isnt the only one that can summon the Hunt, Kringle can do it alone, as can any number of others (See WOj below).
The ErlKing* (aka Herne the Hunter or Cern, the Celtic Horned God) and the Wild Hunt are part of the celtic isle mythology...the point IS the hunt. People are the foxes. (The Erlking in actual mythology is a german baddie that Jim apparently appropriated for Herne.)
Actually, in the Dresden universe, the Wild Hunt can be led by a number of beings--INCLUDING Cern, but not exclusive to him. :) The Erlking (who isn't Cern) is a being of Faerie who is in Mab's weight division, if not her equal. I believe he is identified as the ruler of the goblins--which should not necessarily be equated with Tolkeinesque/Gygaxesque goblins. :)
Jim
So, you gotta wonder, is the Erlking PART of the Wild hunt? So, if Harry did call up the hunt, would the EK automagically come with it?No and Probably. I dont think he, or any actual particular individual, are permanent parts of the Hunt. Rather I think the Hunt is a more of a Primal possessing Spirit (given it's pseudo-sentience, possibly a transient Mantle) that gathers up sympathetic vessels including Thomas and Erl and anyone who takes the 1st or 4th options when it comes. Meanwhile, the Erlking seems willing to show up any time it sounds like a good Hunt. Note how he (a summer-side Wyld fae) still showed to "defend" when the Winter Wellspring was attached; he had no stake or connection, but rather I think he just saw it as an opportunity.