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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 31, 2017, 05:49:29 PM
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Something occurred to me that I found a little odd about Nemesis. In the Oblivion war the idea is removing all the Names of the Old Ones, removing their connection to reality. The more modern gods gained power from worship, praise, and generally the population believing in them. In both cases these Beings gain power from knowledge of their existence. Nemesis is the exact opposite though. Harry is told that Nemesis kills anyone with knowledge of it's existence. Isn't that a little strange? What is it that causes this difference?
I had a couple ideas:
1. Nemesis is somehow the opposite, and gains power from lack of knowledge of it's existence. Can't explain why it would work like this. Maybe it's latched on to people's belief in the unknown, and their fear of it. So it's powered by being unknown.
2. Nemesis is in fact a mortal wizard. I actually think this is possible. The Old Ones have been around since like forever, so have the Outsiders. Nemesis in my opinion (unless there are WoJ, or in book info I don't remember) a mystery. Do we know how long it's actually been in play? It might only have been around for fifty years, or a few hundred, or a thousand. Even if it's longer than a thousand years, a dark wizard can probably find ways to extend their lives similar to Kemmler's practices, or simply by obtaining a Mantle that keeps them alive. If this is the case then Nemesis can really break the rules effectively, and that's why people like Mab are so terrified by it. A wizard doesn't have to play by the same rules, and if said wizard has obtained some really dark power they can do some major damage. If this is the case I'd guess it's a really powerful, Starborn wizard that's gone full dark side.
What do you think?
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My understanding of both those things was slightly different, but it comes down to the Idea that Oblivion is still "Inside". The Oblivion War mechanism is not in itself about gaining power (at least not directly) but rather about having an anchor to the Mortal World; with any mortals with the awareness, they were cut loose (theoretically with their current Power intact) and would be left adrift with no way to affect the Mortal World. This would be separate from however they amassed their Power in the first place (Faith-systems seem to be one, but more violent ways like the Darkhallow exist too). But I see Oblivion as part of the NN, just a part that is unreachable because it does not "resonate" with any part of the Mortal World at all, thus it is impossible to reach by Way, some sort of infinity endless doldrum.
Nemesis and the Outsiders, by contrast, are facing a different obstacle in The Outer Gates. They are trying to Get Inside (of which Oblivion would be the worst possible thing that would still qualify), and unless they get past Rashid they have to be summoned specifically by a Mortal. But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does. But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that.
Also something I cant escape: From a purely Doyistic perspective, since I expect The Outsider war and the Outer Gates to take center stage on the BAT, and we were given the explanation of the true Oblivion war specifically because JB didnt expect it to come up, I dont think the Oblivion War is going to have much relevance to Nemesis. But that's not a good way to enjoy crack-theory, so ignor that entirely please :P
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But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does. But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that.
As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).
I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).
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As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).
That's more or less my understanding as well, with the caveat that I think there are still Sleeper contemporaries ("Old Ones"?) in the Outside as well, so the Outside Forces arent leaderless or anything, just missing some of their ruling Number.
I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).
Im fairly confident (overconfident might be a better description :P) that it's not Option #2
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I think the bottom line is that Nemesis is not dependent on mortal belief to exist or gain power. It's power is from OUTSIDE, and therefore the Oblivion war would have no effect on it.
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I think the bottom line is that Nemesis is not dependent on mortal belief to exist or gain power. It's power is from OUTSIDE, and therefore the Oblivion war would have no effect on it.
Agreed. If Mortal memory were the only thing that kept them in Reality, then the secret war at The Outer Gates would make a lot less sense; I would think all that Power would be better spent waging the Oblivion War itself, and since it would then be fought by non-mortal Spirits, the obstacle of extreme information control that hampers the Ventators would go away.
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Is this possible?:
The targets of the Oblivion War are Old Ones that are inside Reality (mostly in Demonreach). Once erased from mortal memory they disappear from Reality and are forced Outside. The Outsiders, therefore, are the victims of the Oblivion War trying to get back in.
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What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.
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What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.
Sounds like my current theory for Dracula and the formation of the Black Court Drakul. For that matter, sounds like my current theory for Drakul, just in reverse.
If Nemesis had an Origin as a "Really Real Mortal from the Real World" I kind of think it would all be over by now, as they'd have had the power to directly Summon all kinds of Outsider buddies. If it went down that way, what we see now is the result of the less preferred Plan B, where they failed in a more straightforward Invasion and have settled for a more drawn out chess-game. The only thing counter to the idea that I can think of would be the Gatekeeper's role that seem pretty specific to keeping Nemesis from sneaking in; but maybe he's just on the lookout for more /like/ Nemesis, for contemporary 'sappers'
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Sounds like my current theory for Dracula and the formation of the Black Court Drakul. For that matter, sounds like my current theory for Drakul, just in reverse.
If Nemesis had an Origin as a "Really Real Mortal from the Real World" I kind of think it would all be over by now, as they'd have had the power to directly Summon all kinds of Outsider buddies. If it went down that way, what we see now is the result of the less preferred Plan B, where they failed in a more straightforward Invasion and have settled for a more drawn out chess-game. The only thing counter to the idea that I can think of would be the Gatekeeper's role that seem pretty specific to keeping Nemesis from sneaking in; but maybe he's just on the lookout for more /like/ Nemesis, for contemporary 'sappers'
I think of Nemesis more of like biological warfare, it is more of an infection working from with in it's victims, directed I think from a master mind elsewhere, otherwise known as "the Adversary". That is why it is so difficult to detect, there are no symptoms until it is too late. It was detected in Lea, because apparently she understood the symptoms in time as did Mab and she was treated.. In Maeve's case her behavior was already outside of the norm so it wasn't recognized until it was too late. In the case of Aurora, like some cancers it was pretty much asymptomatic until it was too late and the enemy almost succeeded. The Adversary also uses the troops of Winter like Typhoid Marys, carrying the infection, Nemesis, though not showing symptoms themselves, to it's targets, that is why Rashid and his big honking eye so vital, examining all the troops as they return..
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What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.
Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension? Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates. The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen". It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story. Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in. If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.
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Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension? Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates. The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen". It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story. Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in. If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.
They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015) They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state. JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,631.msg21271.html#msg21271)). Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.
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One reason I think Nemesis is connected to Wizards is because it reminds me a lot of like what Molly did to her boyfriend when she mind controlled him. Not only did she control him but the end result of such control is insanity of the person being controlled. The way it "spreads" is like a wizard creating a conduit between himself and the one they want to control. That first link was the Athame, provided by Cowl and the Black Council. Nemesis didn't just start controlling people, it needs a connection of some kind. Again this sounds a lot like a wizard to me or group of them.
The more I think about it the more I think that the Black Council is a group of spell casters that create a link between themselves and their target, and working together overpower the mind, and bend to their will... Nemesis, the Adversary are actually a cult of dark wizards who's goal is to become the rulers of reality. Perhaps Merlin created the White Council because of the Black Council. That could mean the Black Council has existed before the White Council...
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They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015) They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state. JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,631.msg21271.html#msg21271)). Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.
Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say. Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse. Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.
My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside". A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will. That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders. If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders. Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.
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Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say. Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse. Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.
My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside". A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will. That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders. If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders. Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.
Well, the only known way to get past/around the Gates is to be Summoned from the Inside specifically by Mortal Magic, so in that sense there is passage. I know some have speculated that the BAT will feature an actual Raid on the Outside for some reason, though every time Ive seen that mentioned it usually hinged on some as-yet-unseen power/significance of a Starborn to make it happen (or the Winter Knight, with Winter being the Anti-Outsider force).
I think the instances in this topic were less about creatures being able to move back and forth with any sort of Freedom, and more the question of Which fence things are getting kicked over when consigned to "Oblivion". In that sense I agree with you that The Outside is something separate, and something that would take much more specific circumstances to get past, in either direction.
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I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in. Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.
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One reason I think Nemesis is connected to Wizards is because it reminds me a lot of like what Molly did to her boyfriend when she mind controlled him. Not only did she control him but the end result of such control is insanity of the person being controlled. The way it "spreads" is like a wizard creating a conduit between himself and the one they want to control. That first link was the Athame, provided by Cowl and the Black Council. Nemesis didn't just start controlling people, it needs a connection of some kind. Again this sounds a lot like a wizard to me or group of them.
The more I think about it the more I think that the Black Council is a group of spell casters that create a link between themselves and their target, and working together overpower the mind, and bend to their will... Nemesis, the Adversary are actually a cult of dark wizards who's goal is to become the rulers of reality. Perhaps Merlin created the White Council because of the Black Council. That could mean the Black Council has existed before the White Council...
I like this idea. It consolidates two of our mysterious behind-the-scenes enemies (BC and Nem) into one.
Lots of interesting questions come out of this:
- Cowl's "end death" sales pitch... was that just tailored for Kumori, or is there more to it? (See: Dr. Strange's villains who want to end death by making a bargain with Dormamu...)
- What would an Outsider victory really look like? (And what do the conspirators think it would look like? What do the members of the Circle/Black Council/"Nemesis" want?)
- Why is it so dangerous to speak the word? Is it like the Merlin's fear of acknowledging the Black Council's existence? (That many wizards and sorcerers would join the "rebellion" if they knew of it, without knowing the full story?)
- Why haven't they tried directly to recruit Harry? (Or *DID* they -- was Kumori's approach a first attempt at this? Is that why Cowl left Harry alive in DB?)
- Which side is Nicodemus on? Does he support the conspiracy or oppose it??
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I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in. Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.
I would say it's not that it's impossible for them to come in. I agree, having a gate suggests that it is possible. But rather than what is possible, I'm talking about what has actually happened and makes sense to have happened in the context of what we know so far. It's implied in the books that the Outsiders have been trying to come in for essentially all of eternity and so far they have never been successful. Yes, they can cross over for a limited amount of time if specifically summoned and through whatever method Nemesis uses to infect people, but they can't just slip in and out on their own volition.
Regarding the Oblivion War, I don't think that once some kind of being has been sent to "Oblivion" they go to the Outside. I think they cease to exist entirely, beyond all ability to come back. That seems to be the entire premise of the Oblivion War: make sure that evil beings which are already gone and mostly forgotten become entirely forgotten so that they cease to exist.
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I keep on being reminded of the pah wraiths from DS9, they needed a special book to escape from their prison. But instead the prophets managed to destroy it, and imprison their avatar/representative in the fire caves for ever. So I think while nemesis represents a way in for the outsiders, it is also potentially a way to permantly bar them from entry.
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Personal opinion that the outsiders are alien to this reality -- and see to destroy it. (kudo agrabes who said it first).
Agree with Quantus that the Outsiders can be summoned into this reality by wizards.
The fact that the outsiders are fighting at the outer gates implies strongly that they have the ability to enter our reality on their own, but are blocked by the Winter court fey/outer gates.
Nemesis is a outsider "power". I think the "He who walks..." types are generals or at least commanders of some type. Nemesis is probably something more like an infiltrator or corruptor as opposed to a general. In Denarian terms, one more like Andurial or Lasiel as opposed to Magog. I suspect Nemesis is considerably more powerful than the "he who walk" types - and perhaps one of the great powers in the Outsider leadership. Nemfection might be a new avenue of attack, but I suspect the theme of corruption and infiltration is the domain of Nemesis for a very long time.
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The adversary is the position, Nemesis is just the current holder. so even if she goes to the wayside, someone else will step it up. Interesting to me is the devil's role as the adversary being a dignitary in heavens court before his fall. this coincides with the cabbalistic view, that when the devil stopped being our dark mirror, his wife Lilith took over the role.
I connect goddess Nemesis as the current actual Nemesis(can say the adversary but can't say Nemesis cause it attracts her attention) and being highly connected to the missing sister in the trio. It might not even be her fault! when White Christ did what he did and changed the order of fate to freedom of will she had no standing in our reality anymore. Her literal job was to choose and decide and play peoples (and gods) lives like a story. Looking at previous incarnations of the fates and how they operated(by using magic to set the way) vs druidic magic, having the ability to effect elements but not fate itself, I see a fundamental change that had taken place and drastically changed the way reality was run.
Nemesis is nothing more than an ousted employee working for a rival company.
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He Who Walks Before said he was the Gate Breaker. He's the one that leads a frontal assault.
He Who Walks Behind is an assassin.
Nemesis is like a combination of a spy and saboteur.
It's a war, and the Outsiders, even though they are totally whacked out, are conducting it like any war. Considering the whole of *Cold Days*, I think it's clear that Nemesis is one of the Outsiders, that's why GK was scanning the injured at the Gate, and he said even he couldn't be totally sure someone was clean. It's just, very apparent that it's from Outside, and it'd be a pretty big fudge at this point to make it otherwise.
The Outsiders look all jacked up because they probably have to assume some kind of corporeal form just so they can interact with the spiritual/material realms. I think that's part of what the deep hatred is all about, they see our ordered existence as an affront, and just the fact that we exists causes them to also exist apart from their idyllic chaos.
The Outsiders are completely separate from anything Inside, the books and Jim have been about as clear as these things get without just unwrapping every bit of mystery. Outsiders are from Outside everything we know, the material of the Outside kills anything it touches, no one is just going to waltz Outside.
There seems to be conflation between old gods and Outsiders, especially with the Oblivion War. I think if the Oblivion war *primarily* had to do with the Outsiders, Jim would have mentioned that, or otherwise not mentioned it at all and done the "I'm not going to tell you" song.
The Oblivion War is a nice backstory Jim added to the Archive, who was initially going to be a throwaway character. The beings that the Archive is trying to get rid of seem to be things more similar to the necro-god that Cowl et al were trying to become. That is, a load of power without purpose, just beings that got themselves all hopped-up on Power, and maybe some creatures from deep in the NN.
I'm on board with "Oblivion" just being a place inaccessible to the normal flow of things, but still not "Outside". In fact I don't think it Oblivion a "place", it's more like, they cease to exist in any manner that can act, only existing in the "mind" and "memory" of the universe itself. Jim said that Mab and the Sidhe were in danger of Oblivion until she tapped the Brother Grimm.
The Outsiders want to destroy the universe, I doubt anyone from Inside really wants that to happen. They might want to rule the universe, might want to turn it into something else, but they still want it to be here. If you want to take anything Dresden's said to heart, it's the "Mab's a monster, but she's our monster" part, the part about playing for the home team.
At the same time since it needs to be mortal magic that summons Outsiders, I could certainly see her also making every effort to keep written records about Outsiders are destroyed. I just also think that they are separate things. The books say that the Outsiders teach people about magic and stuff, I don't see how the Oblivion War could be very effective when any summoned outsider would probably be like "By the way, can I talk to you about our dark lord and savior H'Gthudfrmmr?". And then boom, the Outsider god has an anchor.
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The Outsiders look all jacked up because they probably have to assume some kind of corporeal form just so they can interact with the spiritual/material realms.
interestingly they look like Lovecraft outsiders, I think due to the common 'belief' that that's what things outside reality look like. Just like Fearbringer pulled his mask together from disparate things that cause fear. its hidden in how the fetches become something more than a mask, but the thing itself. Imo at one point when Jotenheim was what was considered beyond the known universe, outsiders were ice giants.
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interestingly they look like Lovecraft outsiders, I think due to the common 'belief' that that's what things outside reality look like. Just like Fearbringer pulled his mask together from disparate things that cause fear. its hidden in how the fetches become something more than a mask, but the thing itself. Imo at one point when Jotenheim was what was considered beyond the known universe, outsiders were ice giants.
I think the common belief is that the Ice Giants were to the Norse Gods what Summer is to Winter (or vice versa).
It was only the Eldest Fetch that became more than the mask, something about him was more "real" than the other Fetches:
This thing was no fetch, no changer of form and image and illusion. There was no shadowy mask over an amorphous form, no glamour altering its appearance, which my salve would have enabled me to see through. This thing was a whole, independent creature. Unless maybe it was a fetch so old and strong that it could transform itself into the Scarecrow in truth and not simply in seeming.
In the DF, Lovecraft was writing about the actual Outsiders, so it's not that he influenced people, he was first inspired by them.
HWWBefore might have drawn on the collective human psyche to get form, but overall I think Outsiders look jacked up because, where things on the Inside have a form that follows function, the Outsiders just cobble together whatever hot mess will work for the time being to get to the murderizing.
Like the Names of the Outsiders, and the Outer Gates themselves, the form people see just takes on whatever their mind can handle, so, you're probably at least partially right about them taking the form of whatever the viewer sees as fearful, but also it'd be whatever is most alien.
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I think the common belief is that the Ice Giants were to the Norse Gods what Summer is to Winter (or vice versa).
It was only the Eldest Fetch that became more than the mask, something about him was more "real" than the other Fetches:
The Norse already had two distinct and opposing groups of gods, the Vanir and the Aesir. Really its Odin who drops the clue bat, His people lost purpose when the jotuns 'retreated'.
Eldest 'became' more after eating Molly, whole other reasoning behind that, but that's just what the fetches do. Its not about the fetches, its an explaination of how masks/mantles are formulated. JB does this a lot, something used that also explains how the laws of reality work in the DF or another situation not directly inherent to the direct story. Multiple layers depending on what your looking at.
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I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in. Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.
Oh, I certainly agree with that, I meant the only /other/ way than Hammering through the Universe's Border directly.
Though the fact that so much of the Gate Defenses rely on Mortals, both in the general sense of the Fae being uniquely half-mortal and in the specific case of the mortal Gatekeeper as the lynchpin of the defenses, makes me think that the Gates are another example of Delegated/Chained Choices. Technically, the Gates are being defended my the Forces of Mortality; the fact that there's a lot of other fae stuff in the mix does not negate that, especially since (in theory) every incremental evolutionary step of the Fae would have being crafted by a series of Free Will Choices by individual mortals. The fact that those choices led to whole Races of fae being born and then drafted into eternal service doesnt stop it from being entirely built on mortal Choices. Does that make sense?
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Yeah, it does. Consequences of what my ancestors decided still effect me today.
I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.
Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against. Otherwise there is no need for them, really.
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Yeah, it does. Consequences of what my ancestors decided still effect me today.
I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.
Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against. Otherwise there is no need for them, really.
Interesting Idea. I think that there would need to be some preexisitng basis to build on (per the Mothers Power cannot be /Created/ or Destroyed) as opposed to being able to Imagine something with Power that Absolute from nothing.
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I don't know ...
Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.
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I don't know ...
Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.
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I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.
This. Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.
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This. Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.
This. Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.
Im still really confused, it looks like you're using your own assumption as the justification for that very assumption?
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I don't know ...
Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.
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I was answering your question. I thought you were asking for clarification on my statement [below]
I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.
Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against. Otherwise there is no need for them, really.
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I was answering your question. I thought you were asking for clarification on my statement [below]
I was, the clarification just didnt clarify. As far as I could tell You proposed that it could be possible in-world for them to Create a being out of nothing but popular belief that was Powerful enough to defeat All the Outsiders, All on it's Own. I replied by saying it was an interesting line of thought, but that I thought that the Power Level you were describing was so absolutely Enormous that I didnt think it could just come from Nowhere. You replied with "Jim's Doing it" without explaining why/how you thought that was the case, then posted your initial theory as your clarification of that same exact Theory. Repetition is not Elaboration :P
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I was, the clarification just didnt clarify. As far as I could tell You proposed that it could be possible in-world for them to Create a being out of nothing but popular belief that was Powerful enough to defeat All the Outsiders, All on it's Own. I replied by saying it was an interesting line of thought, but that I thought that the Power Level you were describing was so absolutely Enormous that I didnt think it could just come from Nowhere. You replied with "Jim's Doing it" without explaining why/how you thought that was the case, then posted your initial theory as your clarification of that same exact Theory. Repetition is not Elaboration :P
Ah ...
Where I'm coming from is this ...
Odin does not exist. I'll grant you that people believe he exists, but he doesn't. If for no other purposes than this discussion let's agree that Odin does not exist.
But LOTS of people BELIEVE he does. Because of this, somewhere out in the never-never Odin DOES exist. That being the case, then Odin does have the powers assigned to him.
Now, Belief in Odin started a LONG time ago. To get the kind of metaphysical oomph needed to BE Odin, it would take a LOT of belief.
What I'm saying is that Jim's stories could be like those early tales of the All-Father. Over time, his stories will pass into myth and legend, but the Belief that his stories bring could create something "out there", and because of the belief, it WILL have the power to defeat the Outsiders.
To give another example, there is an anime of Naratu (?), or was it Goku?
Anyway, supposedly this being can "unmake" anything. Anything at all.
Now if there was enough belief in this being, it would become in the never-never and eventually actually have the power to unmake ANYTHING, including outsiders.
ls that any better?
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Ah ...
Where I'm coming from is this ...
Odin does not exist. I'll grant you that people believe he exists, but he doesn't. If for no other purposes than this discussion let's agree that Odin does not exist.
But LOTS of people BELIEVE he does. Because of this, somewhere out in the never-never Odin DOES exist. That being the case, then Odin does have the powers assigned to him.
Now, Belief in Odin started a LONG time ago. To get the kind of metaphysical oomph needed to BE Odin, it would take a LOT of belief.
What I'm saying is that Jim's stories could be like those early tales of the All-Father. Over time, his stories will pass into myth and legend, but the Belief that his stories bring could create something "out there", and because of the belief, it WILL have the power to defeat the Outsiders.
To give another example, there is an anime of Naratu (?), or was it Goku?
Anyway, supposedly this being can "unmake" anything. Anything at all.
Now if there was enough belief in this being, it would become in the never-never and eventually actually have the power to unmake ANYTHING, including outsiders.
ls that any better?
Much! Sorry for me being dense.
OK, to the meat: I see your thinking and it's sound, but I see the underlying mechanism as being different. I dont think the Belief and/or characterization is going to create a whole new entity. Rather I think it would create a sympathetic connection that would allow some existing entity to tap into it. Maybe just from the depth of the the NN, likely from the Other Side of Oblivion (and I dont know if those two are mutually exclusive).
That being said, according to Harry in Day One (the new Butters Short) BOTH of our described mechanisms are possibilities. Given that I just expect that you'd waste/use up a lot more Power creating one from scratch than if you found something pre-existing and willing to undergo the Make-over.
And separately, I dont actually think that there Exist enough Power in any one Universe to actually Destroy the Outsiders as a whole (which by my current theorycraft actually transcend the Multiverse). At best they might be able to Seal off that particular Universe from further Outsider hostilities, but I then have to ask "If it were Possible, why didnt the last group do That instead of making a pair of Fae Courts?"
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Much! Sorry for me being dense.
OK, to the meat: I see your thinking and it's sound, but I see the underlying mechanism as being different. I dont think the Belief and/or characterization is going to create a whole new entity. Rather I think it would create a sympathetic connection that would allow some existing entity to tap into it. Maybe just from the depth of the the NN, likely from the Other Side of Oblivion (and I dont know if those two are mutually exclusive).
That being said, according to Harry in Day One (the new Butters Short) BOTH of our described mechanisms are possibilities. Given that I just expect that you'd waste/use up a lot more Power creating one from scratch than if you found something pre-existing and willing to undergo the Make-over.
And separately, I dont actually think that there Exist enough Power in any one Universe to actually Destroy the Outsiders as a whole (which by my current theorycraft actually transcend the Multiverse). At best they might be able to Seal off that particular Universe from further Outsider hostilities, but I then have to ask "If it were Possible, why didnt the last group do That instead of making a pair of Fae Courts?"
Ignorance to the possibility.
Intellictus has it's limits as demonstrated by Demonreach. If Demonreach can be limited by it's geographic location, why not have someone like Uriel be limited by his reality? By Reality as it is separate from the outside.
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Ignorance to the possibility.
Intellictus has it's limits as demonstrated by Demonreach. If Demonreach can be limited by it's geographic location, why not have someone like Uriel be limited by his reality? By Reality as it is separate from the outside.
Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War? That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that.
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Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War? That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that.
Not if the Outer Gates existed from the very beginning. It's entirely possible that those who defend the gates simply don't believe that they can be permanently sealed. Or maybe they don't want to. Having a purpose is a good thing.
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Not if the Outer Gates existed from the very beginning. It's entirely possible that those who defend the gates simply don't believe that they can be permanently sealed. Or maybe they don't want to. Having a purpose is a good thing.
If The Gates existed from the Very beginning, Id agree with them I think. At that point we're talking about something that is part of the very fundamental design of Reality Itself, and sealing it might be like plugging a Safety Relief Valve.
Considering they'd be doing the designing after accepting that their role in things was ending, I doubt they'd be trying to Hang on to a purpose to the detriment of the Universe.
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If The Gates existed from the Very beginning, Id agree with them I think. At that point we're talking about something that is part of the very fundamental design of Reality Itself, and sealing it might be like plugging a Safety Relief Valve.
Considering they'd be doing the designing after accepting that their role in things was ending, I doubt they'd be trying to Hang on to a purpose to the detriment of the Universe.
What makes you think things are ending?
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What makes you think things are ending?
/Were/ ending, I was talking about the decline of the previous Gate Guardians that led to the creation of the Sidhe Courts, per this WOJ
2015 DragonCon
You've previously said that the Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot and kind of took on responsibility and grew. You've also said that every single Fae have come from mortal origins like changelings and Scions and stuff. Could you reconcile these two apparently contradictory origins?
I could but I won't *sing song* I'm not gonna tell you.* The Sidhe were created for a reason though. They were created specifically by certain agents who no longer had as much influence on the world as they once did. I've hinted at that in some previous books and I'll leave it at that and I'll leave the rest to you. That's perfectly enough material to come up with fan crack theory. And fan crack theory is awesome. I love reading fan crack theory. I will go through occasionally and look at the crack theory boards, and it's like excellent. And occasionally its like 'ooh that's actually better than what I had planned..."
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Ohhhh ..... Okay. Gotcha
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Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War? That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that.
Maybe the very act of creation was Sealing off the Outside - to the best of the Creators abilities. The Old Ones were actually not Sealed off outside of the Gates.
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Maybe the very act of creation was Sealing off the Outside - to the best of the Creators abilities. The Old Ones were actually not Sealed off outside of the Gates.
Precisely my thoughts. If it was to the Best of the Creator's Abilities on Day 1 (no later than Day 7), I struggle to imagine that a group of ragtag quasi-mortals is going to do better.
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Maybe the very act of creation was Sealing off the Outside - to the best of the Creators abilities. The Old Ones were actually not Sealed off outside of the Gates.
OH yes. Gotta look around at all the creation theories to add the DF up, but as far as the original creation, It similar enough to the concept of taiji, yin and yang in harmony. Before the original division only wuji existed, no form. When the mothers took form in opposition to each other they defined reality. And Dormammu has been trying to get into our little pocket of reality ever since! *cough, cough.... aggh* ;)