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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 01:40:24 AM

Title: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 01:40:24 AM
Edit: I've updated character builds according to thread discussion and further ideas.

This is the tentative draft of my first DFRPG character, done in two slightly different versions that draw power from opposite mystical sources b/c I cannot make up my mind about which one I prefer. To help me shape the concept I developed it in several different power levels ranging from 10 to 21/22 Refresh; however I assume the concept requires at least 15/16 Refresh to be any barely realized and 18/19 Refresh to have all required features more or less in place. Everything below that is just preparatory work. I welcome constructive suggestions and opinions, especially as it concerns Aspects and their wording.

Notable concept features that may be Aspect-worthy include: being a half-sidhe changeling and a sorcerer/wizard; drawing power from mortal magic, Faerie, and Lower (or Higher) powers without becoming any especially evil or righteous; being eager for mystical (and martial) power and amoral with it (and violence) but not really unhinged or corrupted by it; being brash, hot-tempered, and rebellious to authority but honorable and loyal to friends; often doing the right thing for various reasons but being no kind of moral paragon; being good with flashy, freeform magic and martial arts but bad with subtle, ritual magic and technology; being plagued by an hyperactive Murphyonic field and/or a magnet for mystical weirdness but not having other kinds of bad luck; being the chivalrous kind of lech; being a biker.

Version A

(click to show/hide)

Version B

(click to show/hide)

I avoided to buy Soulgaze despite being available for free since I deem it more trouble than it is worth. Conversely, if the character could have even more Refresh, additional powers that would fit the concept include: True Shapeshifting (NOT Glamours, despite Faerie ties), Swift Transition, and Wings, as well as removing the Item of Power limitation.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 30, 2017, 05:50:29 AM
Looks pretty good at a glance. I didn't check your math, though.

I do have one criticism, but it's not about the character proper. It's just that

Superb: Conviction, Discipline
Great: Fists, Lore
Good: Endurance, Might
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Presence
Average: Rapport, Resources, Scholarship, Empathy, Intimidation

is a fair bit easier to read than

Alertness: Fair (+2)
Athletics: Fair (+2)
Conviction: Superb (+5)
Discipline: Superb (+5)
Empathy: Average (+1)
Endurance: Good (+3)
Fists: Great (+4)
Intimidation: Average (+1)
Lore: Great (+4)
Might: Good (+3)
Presence: Fair (+2)
Rapport: Average (+1)
Resources: Average (+1)
Scholarship: Average (+1)

Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 01:40:24 AM
(I thought of adding something like "A Bane for Technology and A Magnet for Weirdness" to the Aspects but I'm unsure how to make it fit in the list) .

You could make it your Trouble, since your current Trouble doesn't seem essential.

Alternately, you could compress I KNOW NO LAW BUT MY OWN and THE THINGS I DO FOR FRIENDS into I KNOW NO LAW BUT FRIENDSHIP. Sounds cheesy as heck, but in a way I appreciate.

Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 01:40:24 AM
At the highest power levels I left skill points unspent b/c I simply could not think of any way to use them that would fit the concept and the bloody pyramid system. The character is supposed to be bad, not interested, or have little use for certain skills and I already put points in a few other ones with considerable reluctance and distaste just to make the £$%& pyramid fit.

Why not take a bit of Weapons? Realistically, anyone who's Superb at hitting you with their bare hands will be at least minimally competent at hitting you with a knife.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 06:34:23 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 30, 2017, 05:50:29 AM
Looks pretty good at a glance. I didn't check your math, though.

Well, I did check math with a character management program (DFRPG-CM) I found on the net.

You may have a point with skill-list readability on the forum but I found the way I used easier to manage when I wrote the character, and then I just copied and pasted my notes. I might rewrite my post the way you suggest when I get the time.

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You could make it your Trouble, since your current Trouble doesn't seem essential.

Alternately, you could compress I KNOW NO LAW BUT MY OWN and THE THINGS I DO FOR FRIENDS into I KNOW NO LAW BUT FRIENDSHIP. Sounds cheesy as heck, but in a way I appreciate.

The Trouble I picked is supposed to signify power is the character's preferred tool, way of life, and main temptation, for good and bad. Hmm, perhaps I may rewrite the Aspects list this way, following your suggestions:

Template: Changeling Wizard
High Concept Aspect: Half-Sidhe Wizard
Trouble Aspect: A Bane for Technology and A Magnet for Weirdness
Background Aspect: A Warlock and A Gentleman
Rising Conflict Aspect: I Know No Law But Friendship
The Story Aspect: Not So Subtle, Still Quick to Anger
Guest Star Aspect: Power Is My Tool, My Calling, and My Temptation
Guest Star Redux Aspect: Shadow of Ithuriel/Occasional Pawn of the Archangels

What do you think ?

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Why not take a bit of Weapons? Realistically, anyone who's Superb at hitting you with their bare hands will be at least minimally competent at hitting you with a knife.

I suppose so, but it would have little use in practice, barring the rare case of enchanted weapons too good not to be used, given the character's overwhelming focus on magic and unharmed combat as combat abilities. Then again, I acknowledge someone who trained in martial arts as extensively as the character may have inevitably picked up some minimal competence in melee weapons. I'm annoyed enough at the system for forcing me to put points in inappropriate skills like Burglary, Craftsmanship, and Investigation to complete the pyramid when the character is supposed to be terrible with technology. Unless perhaps such skills get reinterpreted to focus almost exclusively on low-tech uses and basic repair. But Guns and Driving looked even less appropriate, and the character is supposed to have no artistic aptitude. Unfortunately I found your suggestion of raising the skill ceiling and lowering the skill pool total too troublesome to implement, at least for now.

By the way, on second thoughts I suppose having Soulfire might justify including a vulnerability to unholy stuff in the Catch, for the sake of symmetry between the two versions of the character. Especially since the character is not righteous or saintly.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Taran on May 30, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
As a skill, I really like investigation.   Obviously, if it doesn't fit the concept that's fine but I was just curious if your dislike for investigation is a mechanical or role play reason. 
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: Taran on May 30, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
As a skill, I really like investigation.   Obviously, if it doesn't fit the concept that's fine but I was just curious if your dislike for investigation is a mechanical or role play reason.

Generally speaking, I like Investigation too and find it somewhat useful, albeit much less so for magical characters that are often able to substitute it with Lore, esp. if they have The Sight. I only dislike the pyramid system kinda forcing its use for the present character. Besides the limited usefulness for mages, it looks inappropriate since the character is supposed to be terrible with technology due to an overactive Murphyonic field. Admittedly, this is only a problem in CSI-esque modern environments where the skill seems to be critically reliant on advanced equipment. In low-tech environments or the Nevernever, the skill is mostly supposed to be used the way Sherlock Holmes did it, with scarcely a problem for gremlin characters, hence no problem for me. As a matter of fact, Investigation is more or less the skill I find least troublesome among the concept-inappropriate ones, because low-tech uses are relatively important and easy to come by. Burglary, Craftsmanship, or potentially speaking Driving and Guns feel worse choices.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 31, 2017, 02:39:50 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 06:34:23 AM
Template: Changeling Wizard
High Concept Aspect: Half-Sidhe Wizard
Trouble Aspect: A Bane for Technology and A Magnet for Weirdness
Background Aspect: A Warlock and A Gentleman
Rising Conflict Aspect: I Know No Law But Friendship
The Story Aspect: Not So Subtle, Still Quick to Anger
Guest Star Aspect: Power Is My Tool, My Calling, and My Temptation
Guest Star Redux Aspect: Shadow of Ithuriel/Occasional Pawn of the Archangels

What do you think ?

Looks good to me.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on May 31, 2017, 08:05:33 PM
I had another idea for the character's personality and Aspects. Since he is heavily inspired by anime, where lecherous characters are common, and an hyperactive libido is a trait that goes well with other aspects of a passionate nature such as pugnaciousness and a drive to be the best at magic and/or martial arts, I may make the character a shameless lech or all-around hedonist too (I'm just hesitant to make him a serious drug user, since I feel this might conflict with his otherwise driven nature). Although to fit with his honorable nature, the chivalrous kind. So I may adjust the Aspects list as follow:

Template: Changeling Wizard
High Concept Aspect: Half-Sidhe Wizard
Trouble Aspect: A Bane for Technology and A Magnet for Weirdness
Background Aspect: Power Is My Tool, My Calling, and My Temptation
Rising Conflict Aspect: I Know No Law But Friendship and Honor
The Story Aspect: Not So Subtle, Still Quick to Anger
Guest Star Aspect: Chivalrous Libertine
Guest Star Redux Aspect: Shadow of Ithuriel/Occasional Pawn of the Archangels
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on May 31, 2017, 09:58:53 PM
Since a few magical items slots are free for all characters, I might as well fill them. But my dislike of ritual trappings and paraphernalia makes me creatively challenged for this issue, so I welcome suggestions. I suppose such items should reinforce the concept, such as providing all-around power or control boosts spead among most or all Evocation elements, or supplementing supernatural abilities in areas the character would be interested in, such as swift travel (quite possibly through the Nevernever), form-flexible shapeshifting, buffing physical attributes, or defense. Any items should be of the kind that is very hard to steal from the character, short of making him unconscious or powerless.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: g33k on June 01, 2017, 12:10:47 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 30, 2017, 01:40:24 AM
... drawing power from mortal magic, Faerie, and Lower (or Higher) powers without becoming any especially evil or righteous ...

... avoided to buy Soulgaze since I deem it more trouble than it is worth...

I'll call out these ones, specifically...

Mortal magic is a tool, useful for good or ill.  It's my understanding though that The Sight and Soulgaze both come automatically with being a mortal wizard with Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy; half-fae changeling doesn't let you escape from either one.  Or have I misunderstood the rules on these points?

The others, though... faerie-sponsored magic, "higher" and "lower" powers... those tools ultimately belong to others than the nominal wielder, and in the end serve those other beings.  You don't GET Hellfire & the like if the Fallen don't see you as likely to fall, yourself; anyone who doesn't fall into temptation will get extra temptations strewn in their path, get prodded and provoked until they DO fall.  Like Soulfire, it's not something you can learn on your own; you need an unearthly agent -- generally an angel (or Fallen) -- who WANTS you to have this ability, for THEIR agenda.

The idea that you can be a pillar of independence and still carry all these shackles of other Powers' making... notsomuchso.  They are "power" but they won't ever be YOUR power, not really.

Of course, YMMV!  Assuming you have a gaming-table in agreement with your take on these... then I'd be incorrect.
 
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 01, 2017, 12:25:53 PM
Quote from: g33k on June 01, 2017, 12:10:47 AM
Mortal magic is a tool, useful for good or ill.  It's my understanding though that The Sight and Soulgaze both come automatically with being a mortal wizard with Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy; half-fae changeling doesn't let you escape from either one.  Or have I misunderstood the rules on these points?

As far as I can tell, Soulgaze is an optional buy for sorcerers/wizards (YS, p. 174: "If you have the Sight, above, you may take Soulgaze for free if you so choose. It's not mandatory"). I chose not to buy it even at no cost since I regard powers that only work once for individual more trouble than they are worth, doubly so given the side effects of the Sight. If its use were somehow repeatable, it might be different, but as it stands, I do not bother. As it concerns the Sight, you may notice I changed the Template of the character from "changeling sorcerer" (who is not under any obligation to have the Sight, it is an optional buy for them) to "changeling wizard" (who indeed has the power as mandatory) in different power-level builds depending on whether he got the Refresh to buy the Sight or not. Fact is, for this character the Sight is a lesser-priority power to have than other stuff on his sheet (Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Sponsored Magic, Supernatural physical attributes and Toughness abilities), and he was developed accordingly. This character is a fighter more than a detective, and more at ease with the flashier, more 'physical' aspects of magic than the subtler and more spiritual ones, esp. early in his arc. He got the Aspects to represent that, too.

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The others, though... faerie-sponsored magic, "higher" and "lower" powers... those tools ultimately belong to others than the nominal wielder, and in the end serve those other beings.  You don't GET Hellfire & the like if the Fallen don't see you as likely to fall, yourself; anyone who doesn't fall into temptation will get extra temptations strewn in their path, get prodded and provoked until they DO fall.  Like Soulfire, it's not something you can learn on your own; you need an unearthly agent -- generally an angel (or Fallen) -- who WANTS you to have this ability, for THEIR agenda.

The idea that you can be a pillar of independence and still carry all these shackles of other Powers' making... notsomuchso.  They are "power" but they won't ever be YOUR power, not really.

Well, from a Doylist viewpoint, the narrative tension between the character's independent attitude and his ties to the Faerie Courts and Heaven/Hell is supposed to be part of his long-term arc and the source of various potential plot hooks, as well as the dichotomy between his drive for ever more magical power and his aspirations to freedom. From a Watsonian viewpoint, these external power sources were not exactly sought after by the character, they were thrusted upon him by his blood ties to a Sidhe and by getting a Denarian shadow or being gifted by an Archangel for their own ineffable reasons. Once he got them, however, he was simply too practical, power-greedy, and living in the present to give up these additional sources of magical might just because of their questionable origin and potential strings attached. He expects to be able and pay access to these external power sources by doing the occasional favor or service to Faerie and Heaven/Hell. He plans to be their freelance agent every so often but never their permanent slave, which would be OK for his self-image and sense of honor. Those Powers help him, so it is good to do them a few favors once in a while, it is complete and lasting servitude he would object to. As it concerns potential conflicts between these various Powers' agendas and his own, or other obligations he may have, they shall be dealt with the best he can if and when they occur.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: g33k on June 01, 2017, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 01, 2017, 12:25:53 PM
As far as I can tell, Soulgaze is an optional buy for sorcerers/wizards (YS, p. 174: "If you have the Sight, above, you may take Soulgaze for free if you so choose. It's not mandatory") ... 
  OK, my mistake; I thought both were "all wizards" non-optionally (I think the RPG may depart from DF-stories / WoJ canon on these ... ? ) .

Quote from: Wanderer on June 01, 2017, 12:25:53 PM
Well, from a Doylist viewpoint, the narrative tension between the character's independent attitude and his ties to the Faerie Courts and Heaven/Hell is supposed to be part of his long-term arc and the source of various potential plot hooks, as well as the dichotomy between his drive for ever more magical power and his aspirations to freedom.
  Fair enough!

Though I note that's a *LOT* of different powers in-play;  IIRC not even Dresden himself had simultaneous access to Hellfire and Soulfire!  I'd be Doylistically worried that all these heavy-duty obligations might result in MOST of his time being spent on the agendas & conflicts of those other Powers, and less on his own agendas & motivations.


Quote from: Wanderer on June 01, 2017, 12:25:53 PM
  ... He expects to be able and pay access to these external power sources by doing the occasional favor or service to Faerie and Heaven/Hell. He plans to be their freelance agent every so often but never their permanent slave, which would be OK for his self-image and sense of honor. Those Powers help him, so it is good to do them a few favors once in a while, it is complete and lasting servitude he would object to. As it concerns potential conflicts between these various Powers' agendas and his own, or other obligations he may have, they shall be dealt with the best he can if and when they occur.
  Faeries like those bargains, favor-for-service.  Occasionally, it even works out well for the mortal involved... although the further up the Fae food-chain you go, the less likely it becomes that a bargain will seem like "a good idea" (or even "not a horrible idea") by the time you're done!

Pixies?  A bargain a day keeps trouble at bay!
Faerie nobles?  Oh CRAP, what did I do??!?

Heaven and Hell... mmmm... those get a bit less clear-cut.

The only "bargain" that Hell is interested in is the one that gets them your soul (or some sort of access to it, e.g. part of your True Name; or you doing (or permitting) something likely to tempt/corrupt you or another person), and as Burke noted The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing, so taking a "deal" to just do "nothing" can be effectively a complicit action.

Heaven... apparently doesn't MAKE that kind of bargain, or demand those kinds of services.  They got that ineffable thing goin' on.
 They apparently nudge the "right person for the job" in the direction of "a job that needs doing," and just MAYBE if they see you're doing a Good job (note the cap-G) you end up with Soulfire or some other sort of "reward".  But -- being ineffable and all -- their Reward is one likely to be useful in other Heavenly endeavors and/or to end up doing Heaven's Work in other ways.  They're ruddy bastards that way!

 
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 01, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
The Sight and Soulgaze are mandatory for Wizards. They're part of the template. Ignoring that should be pretty harmless, though. And non-wizard casters can have one, both, or neither.

As for Soulfire, I'm not sure the angels have any authority over its use. They can choose not to give it to you, but once it's given I don't think they can take it back.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 02, 2017, 09:00:56 AM
Quote from: g33k on June 01, 2017, 08:36:06 PM
Though I note that's a *LOT* of different powers in-play;  IIRC not even Dresden himself had simultaneous access to Hellfire and Soulfire!  I'd be Doylistically worried that all these heavy-duty obligations might result in MOST of his time being spent on the agendas & conflicts of those other Powers, and less on his own agendas & motivations.

Well, I may point out that even at the highest power-level builds the character is assumed to have at most two different, mostly thematically compatible, types of Sponsored Magic: either (Unseelie Magic AND Hellfire) OR (Seelie Magic AND Soulfire) according to alternative versions, never Hellfire and Soulfire simultaneously. I think this is potentially manageable in terms of ties and obligations, also b/c the two power source sets tend to favor decay/destruction or growth/creation, respectively.

Even in the theoretical case the character is developed beyond the 20/21 Refresh threshold, in all likelihood I'd invest the additional Refresh mostly to round up the power set with more concept- and Sidhe-appropriate inborn Supernatural Powers, which the current build downplays a little. Say, a 30/31 Refresh version of the character would likely be:

Claws (-1)
Evocation (-3)
Human Guise (+0)
Inhuman Recovery (-2)
Inhuman Speed (-2)
Inhuman Strength (-2)
Inhuman Toughness (-2)
The Catch (cold iron, trappings of Winter/Summer, and unholy/holy stuff) (+3)
Refinement (Evocation - element x2, Evocation – specialty x3) (-5)
Sponsored Magic (Soulfire) (-3) OR Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) (-2)
Seelie Magic (-2) OR Unseelie Magic (-2)
Thaumaturgy (-3)
The Sight (-1)
Swift Transition (-2)
True Shapeshifting (-4)
Wings (-1)

Quote
Faeries like those bargains, favor-for-service.  Occasionally, it even works out well for the mortal involved... although the further up the Fae food-chain you go, the less likely it becomes that a bargain will seem like "a good idea" (or even "not a horrible idea") by the time you're done!

Pixies?  A bargain a day keeps trouble at bay!
Faerie nobles?  Oh CRAP, what did I do??!?

No contention here, although I may point out the character is supposed to gain access to Seelie/Unseelie Magic because of his half-Sidhe heritage, with little bargaining with the Faerie Courts being necessary to get the power in the first place. Once the character goes into debt compel to tap additional power a few times, then it is another matter entirely.

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The only "bargain" that Hell is interested in is the one that gets them your soul (or some sort of access to it, e.g. part of your True Name; or you doing (or permitting) something likely to tempt/corrupt you or another person), and as Burke noted The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing, so taking a "deal" to just do "nothing" can be effectively a complicit action.

A couple things to point out: first, the character is supposed to gain access to Hellfire because he got a Denarian shadow, much like it happened to Harry. As far as I can tell this avenue involves little direct bargaining and favor-trading with the Fallen to gain the power in the first place. Much like with the Faerie Courts, however, once the character goes into debt compel a few times, it is another matter entirely. Second, in fiction and RPG the cases concern a minority when a deal with the forces of Hell directly and immediately involves the end-game of a soul-trade in exchange for any significant power, favor, or service coming from Below. There is a rich lore about the cases when a whole lot of different bargains, favors, and services are traded instead for a good while.

I may also remark this character is the kind of person that is not much concerned at all about the final disposition of his soul in the Hereafter, if any (he's not a religious person, he lives in the present, and he may expect to live a very long time barring a violent death because of his faerie and wizard heritage), although he does care about his self-image and honor. Certainly corruption may be the end-goal of the Fallen, and dealing with them entails the risk of advancing the cause of evil one way or another, but to do so by minimizing such issues is where the challenge is all about.

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Heaven... apparently doesn't MAKE that kind of bargain, or demand those kinds of services.  They got that ineffable thing goin' on.
 They apparently nudge the "right person for the job" in the direction of "a job that needs doing," and just MAYBE if they see you're doing a Good job (note the cap-G) you end up with Soulfire or some other sort of "reward".  But -- being ineffable and all -- their Reward is one likely to be useful in other Heavenly endeavors and/or to end up doing Heaven's Work in other ways.  They're ruddy bastards that way!

That's more or less how I expect dealing with the Sponsor would go in Heaven's case. I may also point out that according to PP Soulfire has a different way (soul stress) of paying for overextending one's credit at the Sponsor bank than the usual debt compel.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 02, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on June 01, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
As for Soulfire, I'm not sure the angels have any authority over its use. They can choose not to give it to you, but once it's given I don't think they can take it back.

As far as I can tell, any Sponsor is not free to revoke access to their power arbitrarily or at will. They have leeway to impose sanctions and restrictions if the character does go into debt, or directly tries to damage them or their agenda. But otherwise the gift of power, once given, cannot be revoked. The character paid for it with whatever Refresh represents, after all.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Quantus on June 02, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Forgive me it's been a long time since i looked at that part of the rules, How does Soulfire Work mechanically?  By the novels I'd expect it to be different than standard Sponsored magic, since you have to provide it fuel (as opposed to Hellfire).  Similarly I'd expect Heaven, more than most Sponsors, to be able to be bound by the consequences of their own Choice to grant the Power.  On the Other hand, they are pretty quick to revoke Sword of the Cross power, so can a Soulfire Wielder "Fall" like an angel can if they abuse their granted power?

Ive always wondered:  Does the gift of Soul-fire make you a Saint?
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 02, 2017, 09:53:06 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 02, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
As far as I can tell, any Sponsor is not free to revoke access to their power arbitrarily or at will. They have leeway to impose sanctions and restrictions if the character does go into debt, or directly tries to damage them or their agenda. But otherwise the gift of power, once given, cannot be revoked. The character paid for it with whatever Refresh represents, after all.

By YS287, every spell must align with the agenda of the sponsor. If that agenda no longer has a place for you in it, the GM should give you your Refresh back.

Losing Powers isn't really covered by the rules, so you could call the Refresh refund a houserule, but I think it's kind of a no-brainer.

Bear in mind, by the way, that characters don't really buy things with Refresh. Players do. Refresh isn't real in-story, except as a very loose representation of how much freedom someone's got.

Quote from: Quantus on June 02, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Forgive me it's been a long time since i looked at that part of the rules, How does Soulfire Work mechanically?  By the novels I'd expect it to be different than standard Sponsored magic, since you have to provide it fuel (as opposed to Hellfire).  Similarly I'd expect Heaven, more than most Sponsors, to be able to be bound by the consequences of their own Choice to grant the Power.  On the Other hand, they are pretty quick to revoke Sword of the Cross power, so can a Soulfire Wielder "Fall" like an angel can if they abuse their granted power?

Ive always wondered:  Does the gift of Soul-fire make you a Saint?

Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 03, 2017, 04:14:50 PM
I've rewritten the OP character builds according to thread discussion (including a more concise skill list).

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on June 02, 2017, 09:53:06 PM
By YS287, every spell must align with the agenda of the sponsor. If that agenda no longer has a place for you in it, the GM should give you your Refresh back.

I suppose so, although I'd expect the GM to be broad-minded and flexible about fitting the character in the agenda of the sponsor. The individual spell might or might not fit, and the GM should certainly make the character (and the player) sweat if they go into debt, but I assume pretty much nothing less of directly and purposefully acting against the agenda of the sponsor (as the character and player understand it) should allow the sponsor to cut off the character for good.

The agendas of Summer, Winter, Heaven, Hell, and Death (to quote all the established major Powers that bestow SM in canon) seem so broad and vast it should be easy for most characters that are willing to deal with such powers to find a place in them. Moreover, as we said, it is even doubtful the Archangels are able to withdraw access to Soulfire in the first place, and I'm just as doubtful there is any identifiable sapient agent that manages access to Kemmlerian Necromancy. As far as I know, only a few pagan Gods, such as the Norse ones, have been established in the setting as sapient and active Powers with an agenda that may bestow their own version of SM, but the features of the latter have not been established in the rules. As far as I can tell, a Sponsor should not have leeway to cut off access to SM at will or otherwise bully or coerce them if the character is 'in the clear' with them (no standing debt, power is not used in a way contrary to the sponsor's agenda).

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Losing Powers isn't really covered by the rules, so you could call the Refresh refund a houserule, but I think it's kind of a no-brainer.

Full agreement here.

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Bear in mind, by the way, that characters don't really buy things with Refresh. Players do. Refresh isn't real in-story, except as a very loose representation of how much freedom someone's got.

Yeah, although as you know I have my own reasons to be radically hostile to the notion Refresh is in any way related to free will. I very much prefer to interpret it as a measure of the character's potential for mystical/physical/mental greatness (depending on whether we deal with supernatural powers or mortal stunts) at any given stage of their existence. If you wish, a potential for self-development, rather than free will. 

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Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.

Yeah, although I suppose the poster also wished to know if a saintly disposition would be a prerequisite for having Soulfire. If we take Harry as an example, I'd say certainly not. Otherwise I'd be unable to give Soulfire to my character. He's an anime-style anti-heroic character that has his own nobility and may often end up saving the day or doing the right thing for various reasons, but he's no moral paragon by the conventional Abrahamic definition. He's irreligious, arrogant, lecherous, quick to anger and violence, and greedy for (being the best at) mystical power and martial skill. Although he's not much interested in mundane wealth or social influence, nor he is especially vain, envious, gluttonous, lazy (if anything the opposite), or prone to despair (ditto), if we go by the traditional sin classification.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Taran on June 03, 2017, 05:49:25 PM
In regards to actions that do not align with a sponsor:  it's easily covered with compels.  If you want to do something with sponsored magic that doesn't meet with the agenda, it simply won't work.  Here's a FP, you can't use it for this scene.

If you have a FP , your sponsor gives you a pass, but if you can't  afford to pay it off, then you are out of luck. 

Not sure the best way to dealing with revoking powers.  If you are doing things against your sponsors agenda enough that you are getting lots of compels, it probably means something is happening in the game, story-wise,  that will justify droppping it at a milestone.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 03, 2017, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: Taran on June 03, 2017, 05:49:25 PM
In regards to actions that so not align with a sponsor:  it's easily covered with compels.  If you want to do something with sponsored magic that doesn't meet with the agenda, it simply won't work.  Here's a FP, you can't use it for this scene.

If you have a FP , your sponsor gives you a pass, but if you can't  afford to pay it off, then you are out of luck. 

Not sure the best way to dealing with revoking powers.  If you are doing things against your sponsors agenda enough that you are getting lots of compels, it probably means something is happening in the game, story-wise,  that will justify droppping it at a milestone.

These seem quite reasonable guidelines to play SM with. As it concerns my character, I did try to develop his personality so there would be no blatant incompability at first glance with the agendas of the Powers I picked as sponsors. I did not regard Kemmlerian Necromancy as a viable option since I find the ghost-summoning and zombie-raising parts of necromancy unappealing magic feats to RP. As it concerns the cursing and destruction components, which do appeal to me, there is nothing KN does in this regard which Unseelie Magic and/or Hellfire do not do just as well or better. The only part of KN that might have serious interest for me is the possibility to use psychomancy as Evothaum. But then again, a magic specialization in necromancy seems a prerequisite for unlocking the power, and I dislike RP being especially interested in trafficking with dead stuff.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 04, 2017, 12:33:32 AM
I made a few other adjustments. Despite my dislike of dependence on magical items, I realized I might as well fill the free focus item slots (but nothing more, I'm not going to invest refresh in item slots). According to character concept and my playstyle preferences any magical items of his are supposed to be few in number, easy to conceal, and hard to lose. I also decided to make an exception at the highest power-level build, raise Refresh threshold a bit, and give him an Item of Power just to round up his Supernatural physical abilities. Of course, this is supposed to be temporary, a training device until he can internalize these powers thanks to his changeling concept.

The pyramid system forced me to invest points in a few skills with limited value for the concept, but on second thoughts I realized among them the character perhaps has just a bit more use for Weapons than Scholarship, so I reshuffled points accordingly. The character is heavily focused on magical abilties, martial arts, and mystical expertise, and has a mandatory low-tech lifestyle, so he probably has limited use for extensive mundane knowledge, with the possible exception of administering first aid. But the latter would require the Doctor stunt to be truly useful, and the character needs all the refresh he can afford for supernatural powers. Besides, one version of the character can easily and quickly do healing magic by means of sponsored magic, and the other is supposed to be mystically focused on destructive abilities.

I also realized the character might not have that much use for high Resources, due to his mandatory low-tech lifestyle, but I do not have a better use for those points. Almost all the mundane equipment he's able to use is freely available at Average expenses or lower. Being lecherous and focused on his magical and martial skills, I assume he probably spends most of his extra cash offstage on dating, martial-arts training, occult research and rituals, and traveling (assuming he doesn't use the Nevernever, which he probably does to some extent, given his high Lore and ties to Faerie and other Powers). I suppose he might invest his money into a decent Arcane Sanctum and/or Arcane Library, but given his independent mindset and trouble with tech, he's likely committed to a semi-nomadic lifestyle, living in hotels and rented apartments, if not on the road. Given his very high Lore, he probably carries the vast majority of his occult expertise in his head and his ritual tools in a backpack.
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 04, 2017, 05:24:23 PM
For reference, at the moment I'm using the following power level scale, which I modified from the one found in the 'New Power Levels' thread. I'm not entirely satisfied with the names and their sequence, but I'm creatively challenged about this kind of stuff.

Submerged 10 35 Superb
Below the Surface 11 35 Superb
Bottom Of The Pool 12 40 Superb
Snorkeling 13 45 Superb
With The Fishes 14 45 Superb
SCUBA Diving 15 50 Fantastic
Big Fish, Bigger Ocean 16 50 Fantastic
Punched a Shark in the Nose 17 55 Fantastic
Wish I Had A Submarine 18 60 Fantastic
I Spy Atlantis 19 60 Fantastic
Swimming In Weeds 20 70 Fantastic
In A Submarine 21 70 Fantastic
Look, Spanish Gold 22 70 Fantastic
Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Quantus on June 05, 2017, 06:25:17 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on June 02, 2017, 09:53:06 PM
Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.
I thought so too, but there is an old WOJ that they were/are active (presumably living) Powers that are sometimes present to defend Mortals.  And it's listed separately but in the same sentence as the KotC, so that alone doesnt qualify.  There's also one the mentions St George specifically as the guy that wiped out most of the lesser dragons, indicating it's a real/corporeal thing. 

Though as far as I can tell, in general the idea behind Cannonization is that these people were always Saints by the Grace of God, and all the rest of the process is just the Church identifying, confirming, and recognizing those that were already Saints.  So I think the implication is that they were Saints in Life, and that the church can simply rarely identify these people ahead of death.  Supposedly most Saints go unremarked by the Church and will only become Known at the Second Coming. 

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Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.
Cool thanks.  I havent spent near the time with the PP rules, and with Accelerated now I may never dig into them properly.

Here's the WOJ.  It says the kind of /angel/ one is determines the which of the two you'd use, but Im not sure that translates to a mortal that has been given access to one or the other, I think you'd be locked to the nature of whatever Angel granted you the access in the first place.  The Shadow's presence is what granted Harry access to Hellfire which went away when the Shadow did (per Bob in WN), but I dont think any amount of independent redemption, etc on Harry's part could have turned that Hellfire access into Soulfire.  You might be able to Fall from Soulfire to Hellfire, going in that direction is traditionally much easier.

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Title: Re: My first character for review
Post by: Wanderer on June 06, 2017, 02:23:02 PM
I made a few other adjustments, to include suggestions in the other thread. Now the character is a biker too.