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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 13, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
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Nicodemus wanted the Archive. He now wants the Artifacts. Are the two connected or separate? Could Mavra obtaining the Book of Kemmler be a connection? What theories do you for what Nicodemus is up to?
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I don't think Nicodemus has "a" plan. As old as he is, he must have learned a long time ago not to put all your eggs in one handbasket, so he no doubt has several concurrent plans. They might well all be headed toward the same ultimate goal, but I think it's more likely we've seen multiple, different plans he's attempting rather than seeing steps in one cohesive plan -- especially considering those steps keep getting foiled.
Given Nicodemus doesn't appear to have any players involved in Dead Beat, I don't think the Word of Kemmler is at all connected.
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Nicodemus wanted the Archive. He now wants the Artifacts. Are the two connected or separate? Could Mavra obtaining the Book of Kemmler be a connection? What theories do you for what Nicodemus is up to?
I would be shocked if there wasn't a connection between what Mavra was up to and what Nic was up to. It would make sense that both sides would want to gather as much WMD as possible before the final show down.. I wouldn't be shocked if there wasn't an all out effort to corrupt Harry or get to him in some way.. I could see poor little Maggie being the object they go after once more to get to Harry.. This time though any one trying to get to her will have to go through Mouse first..
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Given Nicodemus doesn't appear to have any players involved in Dead Beat, I don't think the Word of Kemmler is at all connected.
Yeah that's a valid point. I was just wondering if there is some sort of group (black circle) or whatever that will all come together towards the end. That many of the things Harry has been up against are all connected, and working together in separate cells to throw off people (and readers) to what's going on. Of course I have also theorized that there are a few different story arcs that will each be addressed in the 3 BAT books. I think the latter is more likely but find the other interesting as well.
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I would be shocked if there wasn't a connection between what Mavra was up to and what Nic was up to. It would make sense that both sides would want to gather as much WMD as possible before the final show down.. I wouldn't be shocked if there wasn't an all out effort to corrupt Harry or get to him in some way.. I could see poor little Maggie being the object they go after once more to get to Harry.. This time though any one trying to get to her will have to go through Mouse first..
I actually think that her being away at school, with Mouse is Jim's way of kind of making her a non issue for Dresden. Kind of like the angelic protection for Michael's family. If there was a constant threat he'd not really be able to be an effective Knight, nor would Harry be effective at what he's doing.
Perhaps there is an arms race of sorts and Nicodemus is not at all aligned with Mavra but they are both arming up for whatever is going to happen. Perhaps she's planning on raising an army when the chaos unfolds.
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In addition to Mouse, I could see Mab keeping an eye on Maggie and dispensing wrath on anyone who takes a shot at her. Her duties to her knight would naturally include seeing to the safety of his progeny, particularly if he can't be there because of her orders.
Not to mention Harry's own reputation. As Michael put it, the supernatural world got a pretty good demonstration of what happens when you try to mess with Harry's daughter.
So yeah, I'd say Maggie's probably reasonably "safe" while she's not on-camera. And considering Butcher didn't want Susan to be an always-to-be-rescued Lois Lane type, I doubt he'd keep making Maggie a MacGuffin for Harry to chase down and protect.
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Nicodemus wanted the Archive. He now wants the Artifacts. Are the two connected or separate? Could Mavra obtaining the Book of Kemmler be a connection? What theories do you for what Nicodemus is up to?
You mean what delusion Anduriel sold him? Do you really think it is that important :)
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You mean what delusion Anduriel sold him? Do you really think it is that important :)
Uh yes? lol
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insure history repeats itself in a dark parody of the second coming while also preventing reality from spinning off kilter.
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I don't think Nicodemus has "a" plan. As old as he is, he must have learned a long time ago not to put all your eggs in one handbasket, so he no doubt has several concurrent plans. They might well all be headed toward the same ultimate goal, but I think it's more likely we've seen multiple, different plans he's attempting rather than seeing steps in one cohesive plan -- especially considering those steps keep getting foiled.
Given Nicodemus doesn't appear to have any players involved in Dead Beat, I don't think the Word of Kemmler is at all connected.
Nicodemus wouldn't appear in dead beat to do a darkhallow even if the information was given to him on a silver plate. Anduriel would not like it.
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I have a feeling Nicodemus is going to turn out to be instrumental in bringing down the big bad. He's making choices that a "moral" person wouldn't because someone has to be willing to throwaway a million lives to save seven billion. While Harry will ultimately tell him to take a flying leap of a high building, I think he's playing the chess master role. Why would he want to save the world? Because he lives in it and being a mindslave or a corpse isn't an option. The world needs to keep turning if he's going to enslave it himself.
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Nah, I think Nicko is the ones that's gonna fuck everything up. Remember, Jim's plan was for 20 Books, with a Denarian Book every 5.
Which means that Nick is in for one final run before the BAT hits. I think that in Book 20 he's going to win, and that event will be what sparks the BAT.
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Nah, I think Nicko is the ones that's gonna fuck everything up. Remember, Jim's plan was for 20 Books, with a Denarian Book every 5.
Which means that Nick is in for one final run before the BAT hits. I think that in Book 20 he's going to win, and that event will be what sparks the BAT.
Interesting idea. There's this WoJ that Faith Astor from Restoration of Faith will be crucial to starting the BAT. Maybe she got one of the Coins and that's what sends her on the road.
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I think it'll actually be him trying to stop it and subsequently getting foiled by the dumbass wizard that makes a habit of kicking out tent poles and looking smug about it
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Nicodemus wouldn't appear in dead beat to do a darkhallow even if the information was given to him on a silver plate. Anduriel would not like it.
I'm sure Anduriel wouldn't like his host getting that powerful, true - but I don't think someone without inherent use of magic could do enough necromancy to work the Darkhallow, either.
You mean what delusion Anduriel sold him? Do you really think it is that important :)
Anduriel might manipulate him about tactics-level decisions for expediency and to shape an even more corrupted host (like 'kill your daughter for the sake of the mission') but I don't think it follows that Nic is duped about the broad cause they're working toward.
I think from Nic and Deirdre's dialogues, the general outline of their thinking is pretty much analogous to how Cowl rationalized pursuing the Darkhallow (presumably because Kumori was within earshot) - the established order is so fragile SOMEBODY is going to succeed in overturning it, so it might as well be the less bad option. I think the Denarians who willingly cooperate with their Fallen believe Hell's apocalypse stands the best chance of averting the even worse Outsider version, so they're gathering power for that cause. The Archive's functions in coordinating the Oblivion War could easily have been adapted to tracking down Outsider cultists for assassination, and Hades was quite open about confirming the artifacts were weapons.
The plague plot in DM might even have been connected somehow - perhaps culling back the mortal population would have hurt their rivals (fewer summoners for Outsiders, less food for the Red Court, fewer practitioners for the Fomor to kidnap for their plans) in addition to the vague description that the Denarians get stronger by spreading suffering.
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What if Nick's plan all along was to prevent Mab from turning over the defense of the Outer Gates to someone else?
Gotta remember that Nick was around 1,000 years ago when, by some theorists, Winter took over the Defense of the Gates.
What if Nick sees the writing on the wall, so to speak, and would rather keep Mab in place as the defender?
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I'm sure Anduriel wouldn't like his host getting that powerful, true - but I don't think someone without inherent use of magic could do enough necromancy to work the Darkhallow, either.
That might cover Nick personally but not some of the other denarians.
And I think there is another reason. The fallen in the coin can effectively filter and or distort the information received by the host. Harry's words to Hannah seemed to be affected that way.
Anduriel might manipulate him about tactics-level decisions for expediency and to shape an even more corrupted host (like 'kill your daughter for the sake of the mission') but I don't think it follows that Nic is duped about the broad cause they're working toward.
I think from Nic and Deirdre's dialogues, the general outline of their thinking is pretty much analogous to how Cowl rationalized pursuing the Darkhallow (presumably because Kumori was within earshot) - the established order is so fragile SOMEBODY is going to succeed in overturning it, so it might as well be the less bad option. I think the Denarians who willingly cooperate with their Fallen believe Hell's apocalypse stands the best chance of averting the even worse Outsider version, so they're gathering power for that cause. The Archive's functions in coordinating the Oblivion War could easily have been adapted to tracking down Outsider cultists for assassination, and Hades was quite open about confirming the artifacts were weapons.
The plague plot in DM might even have been connected somehow - perhaps culling back the mortal population would have hurt their rivals (fewer summoners for Outsiders, less food for the Red Court, fewer practitioners for the Fomor to kidnap for their plans) in addition to the vague description that the Denarians get stronger by spreading suffering.
The fallen are deceivers, I do not think Nicodemus is really in control of anything now unless Anduriel lets him. He might have had some grandiose scheme and Anduriel offered his help but by now everything he does is because it fits in Anduriels nature and goals.
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The fallen are deceivers, I do not think Nicodemus is really in control of anything now unless Anduriel lets him. He might have had some grandiose scheme and Anduriel offered his help but by now everything he does is because it fits in Anduriels nature and goals.
A while ago there was a debate about the possibility that Nicodemus is Nemfected and that Anduriel now wants to get rid of him.
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::Puts on Tinfoil Helmet::
Nic expects to become a Saint. But this just means Favored of the Current Management of Heaven, and I think he wants to engineer a Change in Management. The current management is being stupid, it's risking all of Reality to preserve this silly thing called Free Will, a trinket some Creator gave to the Mortals. Said Free Will is a Danger to all Reality, as it is the literal Key that allows Outsiders (beings not from the Universe and so Not bound by it's Rules) in, at which point they want to destroy everything. Idiotic risk. So he's more or less set out to do the very thing that Titania exists to prevent Mab from doing.
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Q - What it he's NOT working for a change in management.
What if he and Anduriel are actually working on being redeemed, but figure that they have to DO something really HUGE to be thought worthy?
We know Anduriel was cast into Hell, maybe he's convinced that just saying he was sorry isn't enough, but now that he's back in the mortal realm, he has a chance to get back.
That would be a twist.
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Q - What it he's NOT working for a change in management.
What if he and Anduriel are actually working on being redeemed, but figure that they have to DO something really HUGE to be thought worthy?
We know Anduriel was cast into Hell, maybe he's convinced that just saying he was sorry isn't enough, but now that he's back in the mortal realm, he has a chance to get back.
That would be a twist.
I kind of think that was specifically addressed in the events of SG. They (or maybe just Nic?) were offered that option by Uber-Michael at one point and seemed to very specifically Choose (Capital C) otherwise. Not to mention if that brand of Redemption were his goal, the Nose-flick was particularly ill-advised... :P
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I kind of think that was specifically addressed in the events of SG. They (or maybe just Nic?) were offered that option by Uber-Michael at one point and seemed to very specifically Choose (Capital C) otherwise. Not to mention if that brand of Redemption were his goal, the Nose-flick was particularly ill-advised... :P
No, the Denarians, not the fallen were offered redemption. I think Nick AND Anduriel want redemption.
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Nic expects to become a Saint. But this just means Favored of the Current Management of Heaven, and I think he wants to engineer a Change in Management. The current management is being stupid, it's risking all of Reality to preserve this silly thing called Free Will, a trinket some Creator gave to the Mortals. Said Free Will is a Danger to all Reality, as it is the literal Key that allows Outsiders (beings not from the Universe and so Not bound by it's Rules) in, at which point they want to destroy everything. Idiotic risk. So he's more or less set out to do the very thing that Titania exists to prevent Mab from doing.
This. Nic really believes that TWG is the ultimate evil. Deirdre did too and she was certainly shaped by him. I mean she sacrificed herself. That's huge.
I still think that Nic might also be Nemfected by now. From the Outsider pov, he has a point. That makes him an enemy and a juicy target.
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This. Nic really believes that TWG is the ultimate evil. Deirdre did too and she was certainly shaped by him. I mean she sacrificed herself. That's huge.
I still think that Nic might also be Nemfected by now. From the Outsider pov, he has a point. That makes him an enemy and a juicy target.
No need for infection, he is under the power of one of the Fallen, if he rejects the partnership now there will be great consequences to him, possibly a fate not unlike the mortals who were half vamp with the Red Court died. Nic is over 2,000 years old, he'd turn to dust among other things..
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So my really wild guess about Nic:
Nicodemus was a very powerful wizard, when TWC was walking on earth. One day he kills a strange being which loses a coin, which he picks up. He gains a shadow and then tries to get rid of it. This leads him to meet TWC and become friends with him like Harry and Michael.
During their travels he learns about a powerful spell using 5 items from a dying man. Later he uses the spell, sacrifices his best friend and saves the day. But he is devastated. He wants to hang himself, he hears his neck snap and opens his eyes to find a smiling Uriel standing in front of him.
Uriel tells him that it is not his time yet. The spell he learned must be preserved and the knowlegde may never be spread to more than one person. Because the Archive exists it can never be written down so it can only be passed oral. The second problem is Anduriel who know the ritual too. Coins just hidden somewhere just reappear so Nicodemus has to keep the coin and serve as a human seal for him. To not lose his sanity Nic is no longer able to use magic [Note: Harry fell under Lashs influence when he was flinging around large chunks of magic].
The noose is a curse for Nic and not the people around him. He cannot find his final peace and the spell is powered by killing one person a year in a cruel way. Nicodemus is furious and if he has to live forever until he can pass on the spell and die, he can at least fight those who did this to him.
Note about Anduriel: The shadow is created by using the small amount of magic the shadow inhabits in Nicodemus head.
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1 He avoids magic due, imo to his knowledge of N and the taint.
2 Forgot one key point, when Nic gave up magic he gave up his... not sure the word, But if stature is tied to importance/power level, then when you make comparisons Nic hasn't any. When I say gave up, I mean he broke his promises and it largely fled him as a result.
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Yanno, my first reaction about a nic/Mavra team up was meh. But I could see Nic thinking the only real hope for reality is banding the powers of "dark" together to fight the incursion from outside. After all, the gates are protected by Mab.
If he was working from that line of thinking, it would more or less explain all of his actions. He has had 2000 years to snatch up power, but he doesn't seem to go in for controlling or toppling governments, he could probably own most of a continent by now if he wanted to. But in the last ten years he has made a play for power from the plague curse, the archive, and the artifacts in the vault. Certainly sounds like he is accelerating his grab for power.
He knows a war is coming and it even sounds like we know what side he is on. It would be precisely within his character to think that he is realities only hope, and uniting other powers behind him (dark ones obviously) is how he can do it. And if he happens to come out of it with enough power to make himself god-king of the universe in the aftermath,
So much the better.