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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hogeyhead on January 26, 2017, 11:41:37 PM

Title: Immortal death curse
Post by: Hogeyhead on January 26, 2017, 11:41:37 PM

My GM has ruled that anyone with evocation or thatmaturgy can death curse. This includes black court vampires and fey. I'm pretty sure this isn't RAW or in the lore. Can anyone point me to where is says this? Also he rules that 'Mortal spellcaster' doesn't mean 'Mortal who is a spellcaster' Rather it means 'Practitioner of mortal magic' ie Evocation and thalmaturgy and not sponsored magic. Also a character with sponsored magic doesn't gain the lawbreaker power for well breaking laws, because it's not 'Mortal magic'.

I realize that at the end of the day he is the GM, but it just really bothers me, and can be pretty anoying.

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Second Aristh on January 27, 2017, 02:52:08 AM

Eb warns Harry that Mavra may be capable of a death curse in BR.  That being said, non-wizard magic users tend to look at mortality a lot different than wizards, though.  They've lived so long that the idea of them dying catches a few of them by surprise before they can gather their mind to cast a death curse (e.g. Arianna Ortega).

I would tend to agree that sponsored magic doesn't fall under the lawbreaker purview since the sponsor is the one pushing the magic around.

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 27, 2017, 05:36:23 AM

I don't think the rulebooks say much about who can death-curse. IIRC, though, Mavra maybe being able to death-curse is treated as unusual for a vampire.

As for Sponsored Magic and the Laws, it's an open question.

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 02, 2013, 06:45:15 AM

3. Is Sponsored Magic Subject To The Laws?

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Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Quantus on January 27, 2017, 03:19:47 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 27, 2017, 05:36:23 AM

I don't think the rulebooks say much about who can death-curse. IIRC, though, Mavra maybe being able to death-curse is treated as unusual for a vampire.

As for Sponsored Magic and the Laws, it's an open question.

In the novels it was something that Harry didnt think of but McCoy thought he should have.  Looks to me like the deciding line was when he found that she could do enough non-combat stuff to qualify as an actual wizard and not a sorceress level.  I'd personally always thought that most of the Wizardly perk abilities all came more or less together:  The Sight, Soulgazes, Murphionic effects and the Deathcurse.   The only exception being the wizard longevity, which Skin Game confirmed you get before the Murphionic effects (Binder is well over 100 but can use cell phones). 

Now if you are talking about an actual Mantle-bearing Immortal, then I'd say it would require more specific circumstances to unleash it properly, the same sort of things needed to actually Kill said Immortal.   

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Taran on January 27, 2017, 04:38:30 PM

If something is truly immortal, it probably can't death curse.  Or, there would have to be a lot of research invested in figuring out how to end ones own immortality and then try to apply it to a death curse.  (but if they could it would be one hell of a potent curse, I'd think)

In many instances Immortality is a curse, not a blessing and it might not be that easy to end. (on top of the complexity of executing a Death Curse in the first place).

In the event that immortality is a blessing, I'm not sure a being would have the wherewithal to learn how to perform a death curse.  They don't really intend to die, so why learn how to curse someone in the event that you might be killed.

In any case, I think Death Curses require research/knowledge to know how to execute.  Not anyone can perform them - what I mean by that is performing a death curse does not come naturally.

Also, you need the presence of mind and commitment to do one in the heat of the moment.

But this is just opinion.  I can't point out a specific place to reinforce this - other than what people have already discussed.

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Hogeyhead on January 27, 2017, 11:14:39 PM

 Thanks guys, this cleared up a few things. So is it generally accepted that Wizards and sorcerers can death curse, or just wizards and anyone who would qualify as a full wizard even if not on the council, or anyone with magic? I'm guessing that the only template that mattered there is wizard not a race template.

Also when I said Immortal I meant 'does not age' not 'cannot die'. I really wish there were two separate words for those in English.

Someone with just sponsored magic do they hex?

As for sponsored magic and breaking the laws there is a clause that says you can have the sponsor take the hit for you but it's a point of debt iirc. It doesn't specify if this applies if you only have sponsored magic. I guess this would in the end be gm call, and he's already made the call, I guess.

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 28, 2017, 08:18:41 AM

I think there's a consensus that sponsored casters can hex on purpose. I don't think there's a consensus on whether accidental-hexing Compels are appropriate.

Title: Re: Immortal death curse
Post by: Quantus on January 30, 2017, 03:23:30 PM

Quote from: Taran on January 27, 2017, 04:38:30 PM

If something is truly immortal, it probably can't death curse.  Or, there would have to be a lot of research invested in figuring out how to end ones own immortality and then try to apply it to a death curse.  (but if they could it would be one hell of a potent curse, I'd think)

In many instances Immortality is a curse, not a blessing and it might not be that easy to end. (on top of the complexity of executing a Death Curse in the first place).

In the event that immortality is a blessing, I'm not sure a being would have the wherewithal to learn how to perform a death curse.  They don't really intend to die, so why learn how to curse someone in the event that you might be killed.

In any case, I think Death Curses require research/knowledge to know how to execute.  Not anyone can perform them - what I mean by that is performing a death curse does not come naturally.

Also, you need the presence of mind and commitment to do one in the heat of the moment.

But this is just opinion.  I can't point out a specific place to reinforce this - other than what people have already discussed.

Hehe, so I have a theory about the Dresden Files, and specifically Odin's Deathcurse:

(click to show/hide)

I think he very specifically intends to release a deathcurse when he Dies, an event he knows specifically is coming with Ragnarok, one he cannot avoid but can certainly make use of.  I think he needed a uniquely Powerful instrument to be able to accomplish Killing a god, in order to release it.  SO he had one of his Saint buddies (Vadderung is also a catholic Saint, St. Nicolas, per WOJ) to curse a bloodline into becoming a magic resistant Killing Machine.  This killing machine would only have one weakness which requires a special time of familial bond that doesnt exists among The Enemy (Outsiders). This killing machine could not be made whole from scratch, it needed to be cultivated and grown to develop enough Power.  So it was attached to a bloodline, cursed to ensure that it would survive until the foretold moment, and designed so that a dozen times each year it would spend time absorbing Power in the oldest and most primal way possible, but hunting and devouring it.  This appears to be the same way Blampires gain power, also the Erlking.  Eventually the time will be right and the latest of MacFinn's line will Wolf out and Kill Odin, which will let him release the most powerful Deathcurse the world has seen in just over 2000 years.   8)