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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on December 12, 2016, 12:00:09 AM

Title: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: potestas on December 12, 2016, 12:00:09 AM

immortal magic, non human magic or better known as sponsored magic do they apply using your sponsors power. I think not since the laws of magic govern mortal magic not mortals. I am sure its been discussed before maybe? Thoughts

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 12, 2016, 01:20:04 AM

Yes, it's been discussed before.

Quote from: Sanctaphrax, in the Law Talk thread, on February 02, 2013, 06:45:15 AM

3. Is Sponsored Magic Subject To The Laws?

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Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: potestas on December 12, 2016, 04:09:23 AM

sarcasm to a degree i have never experienced before 

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Quantus on December 12, 2016, 04:11:09 PM

Nah, that's just quoting an excerpt from the Lawbreaker reference thread index ("Law Talk").  There's a lot of material to cover on that one, it's one of the more popular rabbit holes to chase.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: potestas on December 12, 2016, 04:25:03 PM

i know i suspected it had been spoken about but man i had no idea to what degree all of was helpful and i made my choice on how to run it so well worth the read

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 13, 2016, 01:03:29 AM

No sarcasm was intended.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Quantus on December 13, 2016, 01:01:11 PM

Quote from: potestas on December 12, 2016, 04:25:03 PM

i know i suspected it had been spoken about but man i had no idea to what degree all of was helpful and i made my choice on how to run it so well worth the read

How'd you end up going, out of curiosity?

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: potestas on December 13, 2016, 09:03:25 PM

Quote from: Quantus on December 13, 2016, 01:01:11 PM

How'd you end up going, out of curiosity?

Sponsored magic isn't mortal magic the laws only apply to mortal magic.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Quantus on December 13, 2016, 09:56:23 PM

Quote from: potestas on December 13, 2016, 09:03:25 PM

Sponsored magic isn't mortal magic the laws only apply to mortal magic.

Interesting.  So what happens in the classic Warlock example, where some low-level mortal bargains with a demon for Power?

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Nepene on December 13, 2016, 10:30:48 PM

It probably depends a lot on spheres of influence.

Vampires and sidhe can do their thing because established powers back them.

Demons aren't organized because backstabbing and chaos and so no organized protection against white council law enforcement.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Taran on December 14, 2016, 02:03:18 AM

Quote from: Nepene on December 13, 2016, 10:30:48 PM

It probably depends a lot on spheres of influence.

Vampires and sidhe can do their thing because established powers back them.

Demons aren't organized because backstabbing and chaos and so no organized protection against white council law enforcement.

But the Laws are also more than just spheres of influence.  Breaking a Law has an impact on a person's soul which goes beyond whether or not the White Council hunt you.

Although, if you're making deals with demons, chances are, your soul has been twisted a bit...

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Nepene on December 14, 2016, 06:34:00 AM

Quote from: Taran on December 14, 2016, 02:03:18 AM

But the Laws are also more than just spheres of influence.  Breaking a Law has an impact on a person's soul which goes beyond whether or not the White Council hunt you.

Although, if you're making deals with demons, chances are, your soul has been twisted a bit...

That's not something that the book does by default. For Hecatean Hags say they don't get lawbreaker stunts despite being fairly free with such curses. Vampires who do odd things with magic on other don't get such stunts. There's clearly some leeway.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Quantus on December 14, 2016, 01:01:16 PM

Quote from: Nepene on December 14, 2016, 06:34:00 AM

That's not something that the book does by default. For Hecatean Hags say they don't get lawbreaker stunts despite being fairly free with such curses. Vampires who do odd things with magic on other don't get such stunts. There's clearly some leeway.

Are the hag's still Human?  I thought they were doing enough self-surgery to have left that behind, which was why they wouldnt get Lawbreaker. 

But, like Taran said, it really always comes back around to a case- by-case basis and whether you are talking about Council Justice or Universal Consequences. 

(click to show/hide)

To my mind it's always been that any Lawbreaking is just that, regardless of source unless you've got a spectacularly good reason to explain why the character doesnt consider it his own actions or magic (I could entertain the argument, for example, that a Summer knight could kill with Fire on orders and say it was on his Queen and not him.  If he did it randomly and not on the clock that would carry less weight. And it would have to be magic that was 100% not his naturally).   If the Sponsor is politically connected enough to keep you safe from Council Justice, like say Mab for her Knight, then that give the PC more freedom but not get them clear of the other consequences, both social and metaphysical.  And especially in the case of a PC that was already a caster making a bargain for more power, that would always be subject to the normal laws, because that PC has their own magic to twist rather than just a borrowed bundle of Power. 

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Mr. Death on December 14, 2016, 05:08:27 PM

Quote from: Quantus on December 13, 2016, 09:56:23 PM

Interesting.  So what happens in the classic Warlock example, where some low-level mortal bargains with a demon for Power?

Just because it doesn't technically break the metaphysical law doesn't mean the Wardens aren't going to come lop your head off.

I hardly expect Luccio or Morgan or even Harry to go, "Okay, so technically it was the demon's magic he used when he murdered that guy, so I guess our hands are tied. Darn."

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: Quantus on December 14, 2016, 05:36:14 PM

Quote from: Mr. Death on December 14, 2016, 05:08:27 PM

Just because it doesn't technically break the metaphysical law doesn't mean the Wardens aren't going to come lop your head off.

I hardly expect Luccio or Morgan or even Harry to go, "Okay, so technically it was the demon's magic he used when he murdered that guy, so I guess our hands are tied. Darn."

Hey, it's not much thinner than the line protecting Binder where magic does the summoning, but the magic creatures then just kill with claws and guns. 

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: potestas on December 15, 2016, 02:31:53 AM

Mortal warlock will have trouble with wardens if they get caught. Mortals using fey magic will have the same issue if they get caught, but they wont have a dead giveaway that the sight can see. So the wardens will have to catch them in the act and use their thinking caps.

Title: Re: so the laws of magic and....
Post by: dragoonbuster on December 15, 2016, 02:53:36 AM

My two cents is that based on the conversation Harry and Luccio have about the Laws, this is a really clear cut issue.

It doesn't matter who you are or where you're getting power from. Casting a spell means you believe in it. Breaking the Laws "breaks" free will, and the active, conscious choice to interfere with others' free will warps and twists your own self in the negative.

This is why I refer to the separation between metaphysical Lawbreaking and legal Lawbreaking. The White Council, through the Wardens, do their best to enforce Lawbreaking "legally" in an attempt to bring justice for those who metaphysically break the Laws. And like any legal system, it only approximates justice. Through this the White Council also somewhat polices irresponsible magic, which is why a Warden would be within his rights to chop off your head if you lose control of a practice evocation and you blow up your neighbor. You didn't mean to do anything, you didn't really do anything intentional to end someone's life, but you still killed them. Letter of the Law, and all that. Choppy choppy.

In the end, every situation that brings Lawbreaking into question brings two questions to the foreground. Instead of "are they a Lawbreaker," you have to ask, "Are they a metaphysical Lawbreaker?" and "Are they a legal Lawbreaker?" You can be neither, one or the other, or both. At the end of the day, the Council only cares/enforces whether you're a legal Lawbreaker. In the example above, you didn't mean to blow up your neighbor; you're not a metaphysical Lawbreaker. But the Law is clear, and you violated it, so legally speaking, Wardens are comin'.

So now we get into "so what if you use Seelie magic and you're a changeling?" type questions. If you're attached to another member of the Accords, then that Signatory is laying claim to you. The White Council can't touch you except through legitimate means via the Accords. They might request nicely, but they don't have real teeth, most of the time. Which is why Elaine sought Summer's protection. If you're not attached to a member of the Accords, but are attached to a Power, the White Council might choose to "look the other way" out of sheer desire not to go up against a hoary god. Or, for instance, a recently-kicked-out-of-the-Accords Denarian who breaks all sorts of Laws.

A note, changelings aren't by default "part of the Court." They are claimed sometimes, sometimes they aren't.

That said, if you're going around killing people with magic, breaking their minds, turning them into toads...you're still going to become a monster. Mortal is mortal, and we are told repeatedly that metaphysical Lawbreakers, those who willingly and purposefully abrograte another's free will change themselves in the process.

To be honest, I always thought this whole aspect of the books was a really striking insight into Jim's views on choice, free will, and morality (what makes one a monster?), but maybe that's just me.