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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Diceling on August 09, 2016, 12:53:49 PM

Title: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 09, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Hey guys!

I'm new to the forum (registered yesterday), to DFRPG (currently playing/administrating my first campaign) and to Fate (first encounter), so please forgive any mistakes or oversights I may have made due to my noobishness.

Alright, enough of that, on to my question.

How would a character (or a bunch of them) go about creating (building/crafting/forging) a Weapon:3 sword within DFRPG? Let's, for simplicity's sake, say that we want to create a new Warden Sword (Weapon:3 standard, Weapon:6 3/session, Fantastic (+6) counterspell 3/session). Enchanting the Sword is one part (in and of itself a laborious process), but crafting it is another (at least to my mind).

So, first step in creating a Warden Sword from scratch would be to forge a Weapon:3 sword. How would I do that?
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 09, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
A thought that occurred to me while typing was to treat the Sword as one of the examples for a Weapon:3 on the WRG (YS202) and use that to determine its item quality on the Buying Things sidebar (YS322) and then use that quality as the Craftsmanship difficulty.

(click to show/hide)

Would that make sense?
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: blackstaff67 on August 09, 2016, 02:27:44 PM
At my table: Start with Resources +3 roll.  Spend 'x' amount of time working on it (via Compels, perhaps?  Spending  a couple Fate Points?).  Finish by invoking appropriate character Aspect.  This should take two to three sessions, depending on how long you the GM wish to draw it out.  There's another version listed under Magic item on the wikia page that uses an entire Refresh point, but the official book version listed only takes up two enchanted Item slots, so it shouldn't be too long.  Since it's attuned to the character meant to use it, some items that have a close personal affinity should also be part of the ritual.

Note: If PC is using Rune Magic, this is almost a gimme as Rune Magic specializes in Crafting, Divination and Wards (although it IS a home-brewed power, it looks okay to me).
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 09, 2016, 02:37:54 PM
Quote from: blackstaff67 on August 09, 2016, 02:27:44 PM
At my table: Start with Resources +3 roll.  Spend 'x' amount of time working on it (via Compels, perhaps?  Spending  a couple Fate Points?).  Finish by invoking appropriate character Aspect.  This should take two to three sessions, depending on how long you the GM wish to draw it out.  There's another version listed under Magic item on the wikia page that uses an entire Refresh point, but the official book version listed only takes up two enchanted Item slots, so it shouldn't be too long.  Since it's attuned to the character meant to use it, some items that have a close personal affinity should also be part of the ritual.

Note: If PC is using Rune Magic, this is almost a gimme as Rune Magic specializes in Crafting, Divination and Wards (although it IS a home-brewed power, it looks okay to me).

Seems like a good way to do it.

Let's say we skip the enchantment part and just go with a Weapon:3 sword. Any thoughts on that? Would my reasoning above work?
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2016, 04:05:01 PM
creating a sword is craftsmanship.

buying one is resources.

Make a couple resource declarations to ensure you have an appropriate workspace (a forge).

I would then give you an appropriate amount of time on the time ladder to create it.  I've never made a sword, but maybe several days?  the base for crafting is 1 day +1 step on the ladder(ys pg: 315) for the quality.  So, 1 month.

The quality of the sword would be the base difficulty.  A warden's sword is probably a Good or Great quality sword.  Base difficulty 4.

Every step above mediocre is one extra step on the time chart(YS pg: 320)

the difference between your craft skill and the item quality adds to the time chart as well.

have the default time be equal to the formula above.  Then you roll against the difficulty, including any declarations.  Each shift of success above the difficulty can be used to reduce the amount of time it takes.  If you fail, you can take extra time to create it.

This would be done in the background while actual adventures are taking place and assumes you are working on it on your 'spare time'.

Enchanting it would require someone being a Wizard.  And would follow the Item Crafting rules.

or they could buy it with refresh and make it an Item of Power which would require an appropriate aspect and backstory
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2016, 04:15:21 PM
double post:

Enchanted Item creation is something that happens between sessions.  when you refresh your enchanted items, you can swap them out.  So, assuming he has the justification, a character can just swap out enchanted items and have a warden sword.

If you are allowing a character to create his own, maybe using the crafting rules as the default justification would be good enough.  In any case, I'd allow the crafting of the sword and the enchanting of the sword be the same process.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 09, 2016, 10:08:31 PM
Just roll Craftsmanship.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2016, 11:53:50 PM
There's that.  You can just declare one with craftsmanship.  It depends if you want to build towards something important or not.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: blackstaff67 on August 10, 2016, 03:47:05 AM
Is this something a player is doing to replace or attain?  Second, just how important is this to the game and player and hom much do you want to torture the player?
And finally, since I did refer to a power without posting data to it...http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Sponsored+Magics
RUNE MAGIC [-4]
Description: A long time ago, Odin stabbed himself with a spear and hanged himself from The World Tree as a sacrifice to himself. By doing so, he acquired the power of Rune Magic. Now Odin gives some of that runic power to his Valkyries, making them able to serve him better.
Sponsor: Rune Magic comes from Odin, greatest of the Aesir and master of runes.
Agenda: The agenda of Odin is not entirely clear, but it definitely includes making preparations for Ragnarok. Users of Rune Magic might be called upon to find new Einherjar for Odin's armies or to gather weapons for the final battle.
Evocation: Rune Magic does not provide any form of Evocation.
Thaumaturgy: Rune Magic rituals are mainly useful for divination, warding, and crafting. Some other effects might also be possible, but no Rune Magic effect may extend beyond the immediate proximity of the runes used to cast it.
Evothaum: Rune Magic does not grant the ability to use Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A user of Rune Magic may create special Rune Items. Creating a Rune Item requires a ritual much like an ordinary thaumaturgical ritual, except that the caster spends an Enchanted Item slot for each exchange he spends casting the spell. If the ritual succeeds, the resulting Rune Item functions identically to a single-use potion containing the ritual's effect. In addition, Rune Magic users get a free specialization in Rune Magic complexity and gain the ability to read and write the secret language of runes. Finally, Rune Magic provides five focus slots instead of the regular four.
Note: The cost of Rune Magic is not reduced if the character taking it has Evocation. But if that character has Thaumaturgy, reduce the cost of Rune Magic and the number of focus slots it grants by one and two respectively.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: dragoonbuster on August 10, 2016, 05:36:38 AM
Professional Blacksmith here. I can weigh in on forging times :D Like the others said above, mechanically you just roll Craftsmanship to forge it (or Resources to buy it). Timewise, though:

Alone, with modern equipment, if you're a professional who knows what they're doing, you could probably forge out a proper two-handed (weapon: 3) combat blade within a a few days. The furniture (crossguard, hilt, pommel) will take another few days. So a week-ish. That's assuming you're spending full days (8 hours) at the forge and doing nothing else. I'd put that difficulty at a Good (+3) Craftsmanship if one of their areas of expertise is blacksmithing. +4 to that difficulty if not...making a real, proper sword isn't something you do on a whim. It takes years of experience to do it right.

I'm going to assume you are using pretty traditional equipment vs modern power equipment, if you're making a Warden sword, because you really don't want to be hexing up a gas forge, power hammer, bench grinder, etc. Using traditional techniques, on your own, you're probably looking at closer to 2 weeks-ish, if you're putting in full days, including the furniture. Again, setting that to a Good (+3) roll.

Helpers will greatly reduce the time. A striker or three helping to forge out the blade who know what they're doing could take that time down to a few days. (Read: Craftsmanship maneuvers from others)
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 10, 2016, 01:14:43 PM
Using those guidelines, then, the rules from the book are pretty accurate.  And a better blacksmith would make it take less time.  Extra help would give you tags which would shorten the time.

The only difference from what I said was 'done in spare time'.   So, to be accurate you'd need to dedicate all your down time (between adventures) to it or skip scenes...which is not fun. 
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 10, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Thanks a bunch everyone for your input!

The player wanting to do it sees this as a long-term plan, hoping to present the new Sword to Luccio and thereby getting in to her (and the rest of the Wardens') good graces. As such, I feel it would be fun to make it into something that is actually played and not just "off-screen", so to speak.

Based on the input, I think I've come up with a reasonable way of doing it.

Phase 1: Identifying the Sword
Weapon:3 examples seem to be around Good (+3) in the Buying Things table. Seeing as this is specialized equipment, I bump the cost one more step: Great (+4).

Phase 2: Assembling a workshop.
Crafting a Great Sword requires a Great Workshop. Assuming the Resources skill of the Crafter isn't Fantastic (+6), they do not have such a workshop automatically. Thus, a roll is required. Declarations on Contacts, Burglary, etc could likely be used. Assuming Time Required is similar to building stuff, this would take 1 month (1 day +4 steps), with no shifts spent on reducing the
Roll: Fantastic (+6) Resources.
Time: 1 month

Phase 3: Crafting the Sword
This is pretty basic. Great (+4) item requires a Great (+4) roll on Craftsmanship. Declarations on Craftsmanship (by another crafter), Contacts, Resources could likely be used. Time required would be 1 month. Positive and negative shifts can decrease and increase this time, respectively.
Roll: Great (+4) Craftsmanship
Time: 1 month

Phase 4A: Enchanting the Sword.
The sword has 2 enchantments: Fantastic (+6) attack and Fantastic (+6) Counterspell, usable 3 times/session. Since the Sword uses two enchantment slots, I would assume that both spells are baked into 1 enchantment and that the extra two uses come from the second slot. Thus, 6 shifts towards the first spell, 6 shifts towards the second and 1 shift to add "usable by others" to the Sword.
Complexity: 13 shifts. That's one hell of a Lore requirement.
Time required: Super long.

Phase 4B: Enchanting the Sword
The sword has 2 enchantments: Fantastic (+6) attack and Fantastic (+6) Counterspell, usable 3 times/session. These are assumed to be split in to two enchantments, since the Sword uses two Enchantment slots.
First enchantment (Weapon:6): 6 shifts for Power, 1 for "usable by anyone", 2 for two extra uses/session.
Second enchantment (Fantastic (+6) Counterspell): 6 shifts for Power, 1 for "usable by anyone", 2 for two extra uses/session.
Complexity: 9 (x2)
Time required: Long (x2)

Any and all input, thoughts and comments are highly appreciated.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 11, 2016, 08:35:13 PM
Phase 1:  I'm not sure what this is for

Phase 2:  couldn't he just rent a workshop?  Just make a resource declaration/roll and borrow someone else's?  Unless he really, really wants his own but I'm pretty sure most Blacksmiths rent our their facilities.

Phase 3:  Sounds about right.

Phase 4:  I would cook this into the actual creation of the sword.  Say he's pumping power into it as he's crafting it.
You don't have to do a ritual to use your Enchanted item slots.  You just have them as a wizard and you follow the item creation rules.  So, once he's done crafting the sword, he should be able to use up his Enchanted item slots to create the sword.

Also, if he has crafting foci, that could easily push the power of all his items to +6.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 12, 2016, 07:03:55 AM
Quote from: Taran on August 11, 2016, 08:35:13 PM
Phase 1:  I'm not sure what this is for
Nah, it should probably have been called Phase 0. Just a clarification of how the conclusion that the Warden Sword was a Great (+4) item came about.

Quote from: Taran on August 11, 2016, 08:35:13 PM
Phase 2:  couldn't he just rent a workshop?  Just make a resource declaration/roll and borrow someone else's?  Unless he really, really wants his own but I'm pretty sure most Blacksmiths rent our their facilities.
That's an idea, of course. Might be the better option. Given that the player doesn't want to forge many swords, of course.

Quote from: Taran on August 11, 2016, 08:35:13 PM
Phase 3:  Sounds about right.
Good, glad I got it right.
Quote from: Taran on August 11, 2016, 08:35:13 PM
Phase 4:  I would cook this into the actual creation of the sword.  Say he's pumping power into it as he's crafting it.
You don't have to do a ritual to use your Enchanted item slots.  You just have them as a wizard and you follow the item creation rules.  So, once he's done crafting the sword, he should be able to use up his Enchanted item slots to create the sword.

Also, if he has crafting foci, that could easily push the power of all his items to +6.
Yeah, that's probably a better idea for the actual time frame of the job.
As regards to the complexity of the item, which of 4A and 4B do you find better? Is it two complexity 9 enchantments or one complexity 13 with 1 additional slot spent on extra uses/session?
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 12, 2016, 04:18:01 PM
Quote
Yeah, that's probably a better idea for the actual time frame of the job.
As regards to the complexity of the item, which of 4A and 4B do you find better? Is it two complexity 9 enchantments or one complexity 13 with 1 additional slot spent on extra uses/session?

could you post the skills and powers of the wizard making this item? 

How many refinements and what is their Lore skill?
Do they have any crafting foci?

It seems like a pretty easy item to make, especially if you have crafting foci.
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Diceling on August 12, 2016, 05:43:10 PM
Quote from: Taran on August 12, 2016, 04:18:01 PM
could you post the skills and powers of the wizard making this item? 

How many refinements and what is their Lore skill?
Do they have any crafting foci?

It seems like a pretty easy item to make, especially if you have crafting foci.

Standard - 7 refresh Wizard, no Refinements.
Superb Lore, Superb Discipline, Fair Craftsmanship, Good Resources

Thaumaturgy Specialization: Crafting (Frequency)
No focus items towards crafting

I realise the Wizard may no  have  able to pull this off right now, but  he'd like to build towards it. Think of it as a semi-longterm goal. :)
Title: Re: Building/Crafting/Forging a sword?
Post by: Taran on August 12, 2016, 06:10:40 PM
unless I'm mistaken, he can start with a Warden sword:

2 enchanted item slots:

slot 1: Power 5(weapon 5) attack;  usable twice (1 base +1 for frequency specialization)
slot 2: Power 5 counterspell; usable twice (1 base +1 for frequency specialization)

He starts with 2 foci, which is 4 enchanted item slots.  He could use the other two slots to boost the power of one of the items, or he could just take a Strength foci to boost both enchanted items by 1.

Or he could save those slots for something else.