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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: blackstaff67 on July 24, 2016, 01:12:31 PM
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I've been brainstorming trying to solve a potential problem. Assuming a normal beginning 10 Refresh 35 skill point game, how many points in refresh would you allow a player to pump into a character before you say, "Whoa, hold on there. Now you're power-gaming."
I just had a player bring me a character that, before Catches and rebates were applied, had fifteen (15) points of powers invested in him (and no stunts--"it's more efficient to buy powers than stunts"). When I called him out on a few things (like linking an IoP to Shapeshifting--that is, when he shapeshifted, the IoP appeared so he could apply the Shapeshifting rebates to his IoP), he and his friends accused me of being unfair.
Just curious--what are other people's standards of power-gaming?
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Just had an unusual experience. Player brought me a character with fifteen (15) points of Refresh in powers before rebates and Catches were applied...for my 10 Refresh 35 skill point game. When I questioned the legality of the build (such as linking IoP to shapeshifting) and why he felt he needed all those powers (nothing but powers: "Powers are more efficient to buy than stunts"), I was called out as being unfair, especially when they compared the PC to wizards--despite the fact that I've slightly nerfed the wizards in my game.
Just curious--at what point would a PC send up a red flag to you?
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Just had an unusual experience. Player brought me a character with fifteen (15) points of Refresh in powers before rebates and Catches were applied...for my 10 Refresh 35 skill point game. When I questioned the legality of the build (such as linking IoP to shapeshifting) and why he felt he needed all those powers (nothing but powers: "Powers are more efficient to buy than stunts"), I was called out as being unfair, especially when they compared the PC to wizards--despite the fact that I've slightly nerfed the wizards in my game.
Just curious--at what point would a PC send up a red flag to you?
Well, this point sends up a red flag, for sure. Doubling down on rebates & such -- collecting BOTH IoP and Shapeshift rebates -- is pretty munchkinous, IMHO. Personally, I'd stand firm on this issue; point to the source material: Wizards ARE supposed to be humankind's most-dangerous variety of supernatural.
Mechanically, I'd say that if someone can't swipe the IoP while the guy ain't looking ('cos it ain't THERE while he ain't shapeshifted) then it ain't really an ITEM. The rebate is to compensate for the cold hard fact that the powers only come when he has the item... the item that can be fumbled/dropped, mislaid, stolen, and otherwise treated like... well, any other thing. It is what it is: an item.
Possibly he has taken inspiration from D&D5e "Warlock" class "Pact of the Blade" feature?
I'd allow the powerset to manifest via the item; if someone does some sort of "disarm" on him and the item, he can take an action to re-manifest it! But no IoP rebate.
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Let me see if I understand this right. He has a shapeshifting power like Human Form that is attached to an IoP. So he doesn't have the IoP unless he is in his beast form? If that is the case, then it doesn't make sense, and you should absolutely call him out on it because he is circumventing the rules meant to keep IoP rebates in check.
Or does he have an IoP that offers Human Form, meaning that his character is not naturally human? If this is the case, then there is nothing wrong with the set up. But, if no other PC is pushed that hard, it can create more work for you as the GM as you try to balance opposition and shift spotlight. (Which are valid reasons to require adjusting a build, by the way.)
Now, as for your philosophical point, where is the line? I don't know that there is an objective line if all of the rules are followed. This is a naturally arbitrary game. The line is wherever you place it. Each time your players roll a Declaration, you are drawing an arbitrary line of whether you will allow it, and again for how difficult it should be. For purchasing powers, as the GM, you can take control of the game and tell your players where the line is, or you can allow them to tell you where they want the line to be.
I have a character that has 17 refresh worth of powers before The Catch and Rebates, including two 0 refresh powers. I wanted to push the bounds with that character, and I wanted him to feel like a real power in the world, so I built in a way that it all makes justifiable sense as far as character is concerned. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if a GM saw the build and told me that there was far too much going on. Another GM might be happy to have the character in his or her game. (See Jake Carrington in my sig. I even removed one 0 refresh power in that write up, "Aura of Influence".)
tldr; It's up to you and your players where you draw the line. And it's up to you, as the GM, which of your own lines you enforce in your group regardless of the players' desires.
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Let me see if I understand this right. He has a shapeshifting power like Human Form that is attached to an IoP. So he doesn't have the IoP unless he is in his beast form? If that is the case, then it doesn't make sense, and you should absolutely call him out on it because he is circumventing the rules meant to keep IoP rebates in check.
This. Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns. Had to call him out on that as well.
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This is definitely red flag territory. A character build like that can make sense, but it seems like it's been built powers first, character and story second.
In your case, I would probably go and ask the player what he wants his character to be, other than powerful. With that, we can then build the character new from scratch. It might then be less powerful, but it'll work a lot better with everything else.
I've done exactly that a while ago, where the player had created a character based on enchanted items, which was kind of broken. We redesigned the character so that it still worked as a sort of magical Iron Man, but with other powers, not enchanted items. It worked way better.
It seems like it's very similar here. What's the character concept like? Other than "shapeshifter with an IoP"? I could see shapeshifting being linked to an item (Denarians?), but there should have to be a good explanation for why it is like that, not just "I get bonus refresh for that".
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While it seems like a red flag...
Isn't this just like the Hexenwulf pelt belts? Just for instance:
+1 IoP Rebate:
-1 Demonic Co-Pilot
+1 Human Form
-2 Inhuman Speed
-1 Claws
-1 Echoes of the Beast
Is that really munchinizing? Ignoring for the moment DMC's lackluster performance...
However, it's the player's reaction that sends up the red flag to me. Discuss the idea, make sure the IoP can be taken while transformed, make sure the backstory makes sense and there's a good aspect tied to it, and I don't see the issue in principle.
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It's hard to say if it's broken. What is the context? The character has to 'make sense' story-wise. Let's see the build.
To have an item that lets you shift forms is legal.
Lets say he wants to have a collar that lets him shift into a dog.
-4 Collar of the Hound
+1 (collar is not too obvious and is hard to remove from someone)
-1 Beast senses (scent)
+1 Human form:
-2 Inhuman speed
-2 Claws
- 1 Beast form
If he wants a sword that changes him into a dog, the question is: how will he carry the sword? Not a very good build. As soon as he shifts, he drops it and changes back into a human.
If the item shifts with him, then it's not an item, then I'd argue it's not an IoP. Or, I'd make him spend 1 refresh to have the item shift when he shifts. But that effectively negates his Human Form Bonus.
This. Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns. Had to call him out on that as well.
This doesn't work that way. Being strong doesn't make you accurate. (especially guns...that's ridiculous) it might help you throw a boulder, or lift a car, or break a door, but not help you hit something. You already know this, though. if you want some kind of backing from the game designer, I'm sure there's something on this forum somewhere. But you definitely have community consensus, I think, on this one.
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Standards are all different.
Hick Jr. allows A LOT of min/maxing in his games. And his characters use liberal amounts of the 'limitation' power which can rack up piles of extra refresh. Combined with 'variable abilities', you get super-powerful characters that can do anything.
But many of his characters are like that and he allows players to do the same in games he runs. So, his NPCs are probably as likely to be as decked out. He's willing to do that extra work as a GM, so that's his comfort level.
I'm much, much more conservative. I'm pretty critical of many of the custom powers when I GM. It's a comfort thing. And I'm lazy, so I don't like min/maxing NPCs. In fact I use the extra characters thread a lot for my GMing. or just use 3 skills and a handful of powers from YS to flesh out the main abilities.
But when I play, I have a vision and find powers that fit that vision and will use whatever my GM lets me get away with - to an extent. I like to think I don't min/max too much...but I probably do.
So, if you want to put a limitation on anything in your game, that's your prerogative. you have to run it and deal with the characters. If you can't come up with satisfying opposition for characters you feel are over-powered, then, is it going to be a fun game for your players?
Lastly: if all your players want to do is tromp everything and they are having fun doing it, then, maybe, that kind of game is good enough. It just might not be fun for you. And that becomes it's own problem.
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This doesn't work that way. Being strong doesn't make you accurate. (especially guns...that's ridiculous) it might help you throw a boulder, or lift a car, or break a door, but not help you hit something. You already know this, though. if you want some kind of backing from the game designer, I'm sure there's something on this forum somewhere. But you definitely have community consensus, I think, on this one.
Yeah...this argument is old, old old. Flat no, strength bonuses don't apply to targeting, from a reasonable narrative or mechanical viewpoint. Period. Evil Hat should spell that out in big bold letters in any reprint they may do.
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This. Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns. Had to call him out on that as well.
Sounds like that player is used to play D&D where high Strength will make it easier to hit. In Dresden it does not help make it easier to attack. However, it does say that Might can modifiy another skill (the example given is with grappling where you would use Might instead of Fists to have a hold).
And as for the Shapeshifting IoP, I agree with Taran and the others that it seems Iffy. I do like the example Taran gave, and might even be nasty enough that such a collar lets you turn into a dog, only problem, the shapeshifitng will last as long as you wear it, and it is kind fo hard to remove it yourself while in dog-form...
/Ulfgeir
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Hick Jr. Haven't heard that name in ages. I wonder how he's doing these days?
But yeah, any level of optimization is fine if it suits the table. And no level is fine if it doesn't. If the character is too strong for you and your group - and it sounds like it is - then you should veto it. Or else strengthen the other characters.
PS: Looks like you accidentally posted two threads. Want me to merge them?
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Oh poop-onna-stick, that's exactly what I did. My face turneth red...AGAIN.
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Yeah, mebbe I'll have a little heart-to-heart with him. Really don't wanna lose him, he's got potential.
My thanks to everyone for the input, I don't always trust my own opinions sometimes.
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...only problem, the shapeshifitng will last as long as you wear it, and it is kind fo hard to remove it yourself while in dog-form...
If they took Involuntary/Rare Change, sure. Simple Human Form wouldn't have such an issue.
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If they took Involuntary/Rare Change, sure. Simple Human Form wouldn't have such an issue.
I did say MIGTH even be nasty enough... It would depend on who had made the item, and why it was made. *evil grin* <insert GM discretion>
But human form isn't that supposed to be for when something NOT human uses it, and assumes a human form so they can blend in. It doesn't exactly make sense for a human to have.
/Ulfgeir
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I did say MIGTH even be nasty enough... It would depend on who had made the item, and why it was made. *evil grin* <insert GM discretion>
But human form isn't that supposed to be for when something NOT human uses it, and assumes a human form so they can blend in. It doesn't exactly make sense for a human to have.
/Ulfgeir
Are you thinking Human Guise?
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Oh poop-onna-stick, that's exactly what I did. My face turneth red...AGAIN.
Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious. I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression.
"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"
Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"
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Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious. I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression.
"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"
Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"
Stole it from the comic "Nodwick," when Yeagar suddenly confronts BBEG all by himself. Sometimes I also use "Krutz" as well.
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Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious. I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression.
"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"
Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"
I've been seeng that (or its evil twin, "sh*t on a stick") for... I dunno, but a LONG time. I had presumed it came out of some (unofficial) military usage...
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probably. My grandfather used to use the expression too. I should google it....
Maybe it's really old and just not used much anymore.
anyways...refresh....
Yeah, your table, your rules... :)
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I think I've discovered where the breakdown occurred. I've played Champions, I've played GURPS and even D6. The difference between those games and FATE/DFRPG is that the former set a limit to the amount of disadvantages/Flaws you can take; the latter game does not because the rules don't provide for it. This makes a world of difference between a PC that has only three points of restrictions/limitations and one that has eight such points. For all intents and purposes, this makes how powerful relative PCs can be an arbitrary thing.
I'm thinking about looking at PCs power levels before such limitations are applied and then judging how powerful PCs are at the Refresh level I set ("Eighteen points of powers before rebates...for a ten Refresh game. In a word, no.").
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Unless you allow he 'limitation' power, I can't see how you'd get 8 refresh of rebates.
Maybe with a very specific immunity power?
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Unless you allow he 'limitation' power, I can't see how you'd get 8 refresh of rebates.
Maybe with a very specific immunity power?
Limitation on IoP and Human Guise both. Won't do that again.
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yeah, you can't have Human form AND limitation. Limitation replaces human form....since human form is a limitation. But it doesn't really matter since limitation can attack to every power.
I just don't allow that power. It's useful for certain character types. Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.
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The thing I like with Limitation (caveat: In theory! I haven't actually used it in play.) is that it scales.
Take The Catch: For a fairy-type character, you can actually go from Inhuman Toughness to Supernatural Toughness for free by RAW. There is no incentive to not make sure you have at least -4 worth of catch-affected powers, since Cold Iron is valued at +3. At the same time - any upgrades from that point pays full price.
Or Human Form: Billy has -6 worth of powers under Human Form - Claws, Pack Instincts, Strength and Speed. If you can find a motivation to have access to any of those outside wolf form, say Pack Instincts (worked so much with the Alphas) and Strength (minor part-body shapeshifting to increase power), this wouldn't actually cost any more despite having full-time access to half of what was previously only available in wolf form!
However - I see it as an either/or. You either go scaling Limitation or the much more math-light RAW with fixed rebates. I doubt I'd allow mixing!
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I just don't allow that power. It's useful for certain character types. Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.
Same here. And compels, when Involuntary Human Form doesn't fit. Compels solve all kinds of "problems" in terms of limitations.
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The thing I like with Limitation (caveat: In theory! I haven't actually used it in play.) is that it scales.
Take The Catch: For a fairy-type character, you can actually go from Inhuman Toughness to Supernatural Toughness for free by RAW. There is no incentive to not make sure you have at least -4 worth of catch-affected powers, since Cold Iron is valued at +3. At the same time - any upgrades from that point pays full price.
Or Human Form: Billy has -6 worth of powers under Human Form - Claws, Pack Instincts, Strength and Speed. If you can find a motivation to have access to any of those outside wolf form, say Pack Instincts (worked so much with the Alphas) and Strength (minor part-body shapeshifting to increase power), this wouldn't actually cost any more despite having full-time access to half of what was previously only available in wolf form!
However - I see it as an either/or. You either go scaling Limitation or the much more math-light RAW with fixed rebates. I doubt I'd allow mixing!
I agree that the scaling is nice. It lets you do things like Feeding Dependency and scale it based on your powers. Or let you do things like have powers work half as well in certain circumstance (like dropping a strength power from supernatural to inhuman).
The problem with it is it requires a very careful eye. You can easily rack up 5-10 refresh of bonus powers and, if the drawbacks don't apply in a given situation, you now have a character with that much more refresh than everyone else.
The guidelines are good in the power write-up but they leave a lot to player/gm judgement.
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Yeah, I'm not sure I like the shape that Power has taken "in the wild". It's more of a Power-writing guideline than an actual Power, and many people use it pretty unwisely.
Still, I think it's less abusable than the canonical rebates. Like Cadd says, it scales. That alone shuts down a lot of degenerate stuff.
I just don't allow that power. It's useful for certain character types. Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.
Not really. Human Form denotes a change of, well, form. Earth elementals stay the same shape when they leave the ground. And Involuntary Human Form without changing form is just Limitation with a non-scaling cost.
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Not really. Human Form denotes a change of, well, form. Earth elementals stay the same shape when they leave the ground. And Involuntary Human Form without changing form is just Limitation with a non-scaling cost.
This isn't necessarily true. Lycanthropes don't change physical form, but they take the Human Form (Involuntary Change) power.
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I thought Lycanthropes got some minor physical changes during their time of the month. And even if they don't, the Power writeup is clear. Human Form is about shapeshifting.
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No, lycanthopes only go through mental and spiritual changes, not physical changes. They gain powers, but their outsides stay the same.
YS79: Let’s get this clear up front: lycanthropes are not werewolves—though they share some traits in common. But where werewolves change their bodies, lycanthropes change only their minds, aligning their thoughts and senses with those of a beast.
It seems "shapeshifting" can apply to internal shifts and not just external shifts.
EDIT: Beast Change is the power that dictates external shifts.
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Human Form says
Specify which of your supernatural abilities (usually most or all of them) are unavailable to you when you're not shapeshifted into your "powered" form.
I guess you can stretch that description to fit a lycanthrope-style mental change. But it doesn't really work for someone who's stronger while touching the ground.
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Yeah, I'm not sure I like the shape that Power has taken "in the wild". It's more of a Power-writing guideline than an actual Power, and many people use it pretty unwisely.
Still, I think it's less abusable than the canonical rebates. Like Cadd says, it scales. That alone shuts down a lot of degenerate stuff.
Not really. Human Form denotes a change of, well, form. Earth elementals stay the same shape when they leave the ground. And Involuntary Human Form without changing form is just Limitation with a non-scaling cost.
What about a human that changes into an 'ultimate warrior form' with armor and powers?
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Sure, Human Form can do that.
I'd still rather use Limitation, though. I prefer the cost to scale with the size of the drawback, and I don't mind doing some extra math.